Dr. Patel: Practice and vairāgya both are necessary, not only vairāgya. No?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Dr. Patel: Practice and vairāgya both are necessary.
Prabhupāda: Vairāgya means when you are not addicted to sinful life. That is vairāgya. People have got attachment for sinful activities. (break) . . . deve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty aśu vairāgyam (SB 1.2.7). That is the vairāgya way. You cannot practice vairāgya without Vāsudeva's shelter.
Dr. Patel: Vairāgya generates by extreme bhakti or by extreme knowledge. Not otherwise. Knowledge is generated by bhakti, no doubt, but then you must have complete knowledge of what is this and what is that.
Prabhupāda: Without bhakti, knowledge is artificial, because knowledge means to accept the Supreme Lord as Supreme. That is knowledge.
Dr. Patel: That is knowledge. And then this is all falsehood. From that knowledge, when you know that this is all false, then it sort of, in a sense, generated in you, to be . . .
Prabhupāda: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). The so-called knowledge is useless. It has no value. Māyāyapahṛta-jñāna. What is the test? Na māṁ prapadyante, "If he had knowledge, he would have surrendered to Me," but he does not do so.