Prabhupāda: The psychology is on the mental platform.
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?
Harikeśa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires, and heads, and they find that the readings are all over the place. . .
Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?
Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.
Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, these psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.
Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?
Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to.
Prabhupāda: Forced?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably being paid.
Upendra: This is referring to that. . ., in that Transcendental Meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the Transcendental Meditation.
Harikeśa: But actually, that's not true because some. . .
Prabhupāda: That Transcendental Meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than Transcendental Meditation.
Harikeśa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant, and the test goes up.
Upendra: No, but this is. . . Dharmādhyakṣa was. . . He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the Transcendental Meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa, at least, and Guru dāsa said so. I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato (SB 5.18.12). These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand, anything spiritual.
Harikeśa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.
Prabhupāda: What. . .? What you. . .?
Siddha-svarūpa: They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane, and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane.
Prabhupāda: Their position is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. These rascals, avajānanti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is also a very big man, that's all." Just the Arya-samaji says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the Bhagavad. . ., avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). The paraṁ bhāvam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual, that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avāṅ mānasa-gocara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.