Devotee (2): So why do we call them karmīs?
Prabhupāda: Vikarmīs, opposite karmī.
Devotee (2): So there's practically no karmīs.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sinful.
Prabhupāda: Sinful activities, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Vikarma. Therefore they will be punished in different forms of life. Therefore we find so many species of . . . forms of life. This is punishment. But māyā's curtain, they are thinking, "We are happy." Just like this tree is a punishment, but it has no sense that this is punishment.
Gurukṛpā: Thinks he's happy.
Prabhupāda: Standing happily for five thousand years.
Gurukṛpā: Drinking only water.
Prabhupāda: If you are asked to stand here for five hours, you'll feel most uncomfortable. But they are standing for five thousand years, no uncomfortable. This is punishment. Punishment is there, but unaware. So everyone is like that. Anyone in the material world, they are being punished in different degrees, but unaware. That is māyā's grace, that although he is punished, he cannot understand.
Gurukṛpā: So they answer that "If you're happy, then what's wrong with that?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, that class you are here. You go on with that happiness. But we are not satisfied with this. You are rascal. You are happy in that way, but we are not. That is the difference between you and me.
Gurukṛpā: Happiness of the fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer?
Devotee (2): What about on the hellish planets? Do they know they're suffering there?
Prabhupāda: Just like to an animal, whipping is nothing. And for a man, to show the whip is sufficient. So there are different degrees of consciousness. Even a child, he'll be afraid by seeing the whip, and the animal, actually being whipped, doesn't care. That is the difference.
Gurukṛpā: So either they take the śāstra or the śastra.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of śāstra; it is śastra only. When there is no śāstra there must be śastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip. That's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).