Prabhupāda: The, the Bhāgavatam, there is nothing . . . well, there are some figurative use. Just like we speak the story of Aesop's Fables. That is for instruction. Just like a jackal is talking with a lion. You see? So, there are stories like that.
David Lawrence: Yes, there are figurative stories.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: I mean, one or two of the stories . . . there's a reference to Kṛṣṇa and the unmarried gopīs, saying that He treated them like dolls, yet they were well pleased with Him. Now, would it be right to say that the main point of that story, rather than . . .
Prabhupāda: Dolls?
David Lawrence: Yes, it says He treated them rather like dolls. It's your own translation on that one. But they were well pleased with Him. Is the point of the story . . .
Prabhupāda: Dolls, dolls means just like doll-player, they make the dolls dance. It is like that.
David Lawrence: Yes, as He wishes.
Śyāmasundara: Puppets.
Prabhupāda: Puppets, yes, puppets.
David Lawrence: Yes. I mean is that to be taken again literally, or is there, as you say, a figurative meaning there in terms of faith?
Prabhupāda: No, that is literally. Because gopīs were just dancing according to Kṛṣṇa's desire. They are so devotee that whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, they are prepared to do.
David Lawrence: See, without being too irreverent, it seems a strange thing to get young ladies to undress in front of you.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say . . .
David Lawrence: I'm probably misunderstanding it, you see.
Prabhupāda: . . . it will be difficult for ordinary persons. Still, as far as possible, I have tried to explain for understanding of the ordinary people. By general reading, it is not difficult.
David Lawrence: This is the sort of problem one comes across, whether in fact . . . you see, having grown up in what was really a very liberal, critical attitude . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore, this portion of Kṛṣṇa's life is depicted on the Tenth Canto. Nine cantos are devoted to understand Kṛṣṇa. So without understanding Kṛṣṇa, if one tries to read the life and pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, it may be misleading.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes. I think somewhere it says . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata begins that janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), what is the origin, source of creation. Not abruptly Kṛṣṇa. Then after developing all such knowledge, one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. But in the spiritual world there are activities like that. The material world is only perverted reflection of these activities of the spiritual world. Perverted reflection. It is reflection, but perverted. Therefore, it is difficult.
David Lawrence: So when the insight is there, you see the truth.
Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Basic principle, that Kṛṣṇa loved the gopīs . . . gopīs were young girls, Kṛṣṇa was young boy. But the same love between young boy and girl here is lust. Therefore, it is perverted. The reflection is there, but it is not love, it is lust.
David Lawrence: Yes, that's the difference.
Prabhupāda: That's the difference.
David Lawrence: Yes. So it's using our experiences and refining them and distilling them and showing what the true value of these experiences is . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: . . . the true meaning of them.
Prabhupāda: In the gopīs' love with Kṛṣṇa, there is no lust. That is the difference.
David Lawrence: Reverence isn't it? Reverence for Him.
Prabhupāda: Here, the so-called love is lust only. It is going on in the name of love. Actually it is not love. And because it is not love, therefore such kind of love does not continue very long. It breaks.
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But we don't find in the history of spiritual world the love between the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa broke at any time. That is the difference.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes. Whereas one in three of the Western marriages, so they say, is destined to break.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: One in three. That's what they say now, one in three. It's the latest figures.
Prabhupāda: The same thing is there, but they are dragging this lusty affairs to Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the rascal, they paint Kṛṣṇa's picture with gopīs so that their lusty activities may be supported, that "Kṛṣṇa also had like that." This is misunderstanding. They do not take into calculation: Here, so-called love is lust and it breaks. But in the gopīs' love with Kṛṣṇa there is no breaking, but increasing of love. So how they can compare Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs with these lusty affairs?
David Lawrence: I must admit, yes, I've read far enough on to see that, and I think this is . . .
Prabhupāda: When we make analogy, the points of similarity must be there. But these rascals are so dull-headed that they have no even logical arguments. Where are the points of similarity, that we are comparing these lusty affairs of this material world with the affairs of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs? Where is the similarity?
David Lawrence: There's never mention of lust or of any animal desire at all, is there?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
David Lawrence: It's just reverence and love.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa used to dance with so many gopīs, everything is described there, that they embraced, they kissed, but there is no such thing abortion or contraceptive. (laughter) So these things have to be studied. How we can compare gopīs love with Kṛṣṇa with these lusty affairs of this material world?
David Lawrence: Can't be done. Another question that raised itself, you'll see in the paper in fact, was the little mention in one of the books that I was reading, not from Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just to get a bit of background, on Lord Caitanya, and it seems to have been . . .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is already there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, described.