Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Mujibur Rahman or Mussolini or big, big, so..., Napoleon.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of..., what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much... He was known as Bona. You do not know all these things?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an... So where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after a great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hmm? (chuckles) Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? (laughter) Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent.
Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have not independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independence, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27): "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha, foolishly declaring that 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach, and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen... It takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine... You die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hmm? Why do they not accept? What is the reason? You cannot say?
Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha, then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, "Yow, yow, yow, yow!" You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as... Simply one stick—finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go. (laughs) He knows that "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves—Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is..., what is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods?