Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life.
Workers (Conversations 1975)
Expressions researched:
"worker"
|"worker's"
|"workers"
|"workmanship"
|"workmen"
- VedaBase query: worker or workers or worker's or workmanship or workmen not "fruitive worker*
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That's all. You cannot produce petrol. Just like gold is already there, manufactured by God. You can make only different types of ornaments, that's all. Everything. This metal covering of this body, you have not produced this metal. They are like the carpenter. The carpenter has not produced the wood nor the metal instrument nor himself, but he is working. This body is also not produced by him. That is also made by Kṛṣṇa. His intelligence is also made by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving the body. Kṛṣṇa is giving the intelligence. Kṛṣṇa is giving the wood. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instrument. Now, if you produce some furniture, to whom it will belong? To the carpenter or to the supplier of everything? Who will enjoy it? Who will enjoy it? If the carpenter claims that "I have done it," that is foolishness. You have done it as a worker, and you have been supplied with everything, your intelligence, your food, your instrument, your ingredient. Therefore the supplier should be the proprietor, not the carpenter. That is real philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, every country, every country. Now, just like you are highly educated. Your country could not give you service. You are coming here. And that is śūdra. One who cannot live independently, he is śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age, everyone is practically śūdra, because nobody can live independently. So we are producing mass śūdras. Therefore it is in chaotic condition. The Communist is the last word of the śūdras. The Communist philosophy is that "We are worker. We have all the power. We must have all the power." And that they are doing. And because they do not want to obey any authority, therefore they are denying existence of God. This is the tendency of the modern society. Not only they do not know what is God, and they are trying to disobey the orders of God. So practically there is no religion. And without religion human society is animal society. Dharmeṇa hīnā pasubhiḥ samānāḥ.
Prabhupāda: "This working is my punishment. How to get out of this work?" No. To increase the work more, complicate, that is civilization. This is called avidyā. Avidyā-karma-samjñānya. Our tendency is not to work but get things. Therefore he has asked that question. Because he has to get cloth by working, therefore he asking, "Why God has not created?" That means tendency is not to work. That is spiritual tendency. Everything, necessities, automatically available. That is our... Therefore as soon as one man becomes rich, he does not work. He gets his thing by working others. The tendency is there, to retire from work. They go to a solitary place. They retire. They do not go out. Weekly, at least, they want to stop worker, working. So why this tendency? He does not want to die. He does not want to work. This is spiritual. Why man should work like... Therefore real civilization is that minimize work. Minimize work, save time, and go back to your spiritual life. That is civilization. And this is not civilization, to get the necessities of life, sense gratification, and work like hog and dog. That is condemned.
Prabhupāda: They were not properly doing their duties. So Paraśurāma said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly kṣatriyas were guided by the brāhmaṇas, even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all the rules and regulations. But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdraḥ-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are śūdras. Because they are workers. (break) Everyone can be purified, even the caṇḍālas. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). Yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasādayaḥ, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kālayavana. Kālayavana fought with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Due to the cars?
Devotee: Yes.
Devotee: Everyone was a farmer, now everyone is a factory worker.
Devotee: Yes. It was very nice, very clear and very nice.
Prabhupāda: Again, let them become farmers. (break)
Devotee: The mornings were very cool, very cool and during the day it was hot. The mornings were always very clear and cool. (devotees chanting japa in background)
(break)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize—what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain?
Guest: The whole nation is worker?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?
Guest: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not enjoyment. It is worker, just like this field is for working, and the farmer is working. That does not mean he's enjoying. He's working. This field is given for working. But this working does not mean that he's enjoying. And because this working, working on the field is not enjoyment, therefore nobody's coming. They are going to the factory. They are going to the factory. Had it been enjoyment, then they would have come. But no, they go to the factory. And they are prepared to purchase from the farmer at any cost to avoid this working. That is the difficulty at the present moment. If you are asked that "You work here," I don't think you'll agree. It is not enjoyment. Will you take a plow and do...? No. Why? If it is enjoyment, why not?
Pañcadraviḍa: The work is too hard.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. That's it.
Prabhupāda: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad-gītā says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ: (BG 4.13) "By Me, the four divisions of human soceity are made." The most intelligent class, the brāhmaṇa, who knows the soul, God, etc., by their character, by their behavior. That is brāhmaṇa class. This is the most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is not civilization. Simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers, where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization.
Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. This is natural.
Amogha: The divisions of work are naturally there. You can't avoid them.
Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said—you are reading the other day—the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?"
Prabhupāda: Geographer. And another man is working in the factory or somewhere else. Everyone is working. So by working the aim should be how to perform yajña. That is... That should the... Suppose you are geographer, and I am a religious preacher, and he is a cultivator, he is a factory man, he is a motorcar driver. So that is all right. But if we sit down together and perform yajña simply by glorifying the Lord, where is the loss in your part or my part or his part? Where is the loss? Suppose as a geographer, you sit down; as a religious preacher, I sit down; as a motorcar driver, he sits down; as a factory worker, he sits down and perform yajña. Yajña means we chant the holy name of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Even the child can take part. Even the child, woman, educated, noneducated, rich man, poor man, worker—everyone can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So why don't you accept this formula?
Justin Murphy: How do you know that I haven't?
Prabhupāda: There is no check.
Justin Murphy: But how about the people living next door or the people...?
Prabhupāda: No, they can form different groups. You can form your group. Suppose there is hundred gentlemen in this neighborhood. We can sit down. If he has no time, they can sit down with family members. Everyone has got family. Everyone has got his wife, children or somebody else, servant. Sit down for half an hour and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty?
Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do...
Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse.
Amogha: There are three or four men coming at ten o'clock. One Mr. Nera(?) from the... They're all from one place where they deal with alcoholics and drug addicts. And they work for the government. And Mr. Nera(?) is a social worker, and for fifteen years he's worked in mental hospitals also. And there's a psychologist from Burma, and a psychiatric nurse and maybe one other, at ten o'clock. And I talked to some people who do radio conversations yesterday. And they want me to check back today. But they may come tonight or possibly tomorrow morning. Is it all right for tomorrow morning also?
Prabhupāda: When we are starting?
Amogha: We are starting not... The plane flies at two o'clock. So in the morning there would be time, I think. But if they come they will broadcast it on radio, the conversation. And perhaps that man, the geographer, will come again. He told me to check back today because he has to see if he can make it in the schedule.
Prabhupāda: You know?
Dr. Copeland: I've heard of it. From another worker. While you were in the college or afterwards, did you participate in any political movements?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I joined this Gandhi's.
Dr. Copeland: You did? Had you met Gandhi?
Prabhupāda: I met several times, but not as personal interview. But I liked his movement, national movement.
Dr. Copeland: Why?
Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge, imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source. So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births, not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: (BG 7.19)
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos.
Bahulāśva: So the soul is the conscious worker of the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for my, and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? That taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow!
Prabhupāda: So kṣatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you want a kṣatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as brāhmaṇas. You must train a class of men as kṣatriya and a class of men as agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is cātur-varṇyam: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But the kṣatriya or the president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and some poor young men—"Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that energy is lacking, what he will do there?
Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way.
Prabhupāda: His father predicted that "This boy will become a pious man. He is not going to take up my business." (laughter) His father is a very big, rich man running on factories. But he was disappointed that "This, my child, will not be a factory worker." Is it not? You tell.
Brahmānanda: Yes. Actually we also say that it is Prabhupāda's grace that he came here and he actually delivered a process which is nothing of his own manufacture. This chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is a bona fide transcendental process. And Prabhupāda has delivered it purely. So therefore it has great effect. Although it seems that there are only a few of us who are actually taking to this movement, we consider that we are representative of the whole world. Actually this movement has now spread all over the world. I myself have been in Africa, and the movement is even taking effect there. So we see that our movement is very important, and we have members from practically every country, every religion, every kind of social group in the world. Therefore we see a great scope for this movement. And at the present moment we are not getting so much help from governments, authorities, so many groups that could offer especially financial help.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body—the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs—all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.
Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?
Prabhupāda: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the woman is third-class. In this... Because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband.
Prabhupāda: Yes, cow, from where you get milk, that cow. So the exact word is used in Sanskrit, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Vaiśya, the third-class man, is called vaiśya. So his duty is how to produce food, food grains, for both for the animals and the man. And he gives protection to the cows. As the second-class man, the administrator, he gives protection to the human being from danger, similarly, the third-class man is entrusted to give protection to the cows. Cow is very important animal in the society because it is supplying milk, the most nutritious food. And... Find out. This is the third-class man's duty. And the fourth-class man means general worker. He has no brain, he simply helps the other three classes: first-class, second-class, and the third-class. And below the fourth-class men, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class. So they are called lower class, less than the fourth-class. So the society should be generally divided into four classes. As I have given example, there is head, arm, belly, and leg.
Brahmānanda:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ
- (BG 9.32)
"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers—can approach the supreme destination. Purport. It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material... (break) ...than great jñānīs and yogis."
Jagadīśa: But this point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult to understand, and it will only be possible for a very few persons to grasp this truth. Therefore you are encouraging us to introduce the proper social system so that gradually people may understand. Otherwise they could never accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is understood by the first-class men. In the social system, if we don't keep a first-class man, a section, then it will not be possible, socially. Or if next alternative, that everyone agrees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it will be possible. That is the simplest method. You become first-class or last class; it doesn't matter. You take to this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become equally in spiritual consciousness. So it is already published in the paper?
Prabhupāda: Intolerant?
Jayatīrtha: No, "and tolerant." " 'Such MEN,' " capital M-E-N again, "he said, 'are first-class citizens and should be advisors to the world. Second and third-class MEN have not found God and should be administrators and workers.' " Not exactly right. "He spoke thirty minutes and never mentioned women. I asked how women fit into his system. 'Women,' he said, 'is not equal in intelligence to man. Man's brain weighs sixty-four ounces; women's weighs thirty-six ounces. It is just a fact.' He continued, 'Women are meant to assist men. That is all.' He said women do not figure in his class system except as daughters or wives. 'An unmarried woman presumably is classless. Is that,' asked a male reporter..."
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is fact. She is prostitute, that's all. If you classify, then she is prostitute. (laughter) That's all. There is no other way.
Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent. Is he not there in the human society? Do you think all men are equally intelligent? Do you think? There must be one class, very highly intelligent class. So what are the symptoms of the intelligent class? That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. The first-class intelligent man... (break) ...you find all these qualities, he is first-class man.
Prabhupāda: Yes, my Guru Mahārāja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Mahārāja? I think... Here is.
Reporter (2): Why does the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement not engage in social protest?
Prabhupāda: We are the best social worker. People are fools and rascals. We are teaching them nice idea of God consciousness. We are the best social worker. We will stop all crimes. What is your social work? Producing hippies and criminals. That is not social work. Social work means the population must be very peaceful, wise, intelligent, God conscious, first-class man. That is social work. If you produce some fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class of men what is social work? We are producing that. Just see. Here is first-class man. They do not have any bad habit, illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating, or gambling. They are all young men. They are not addicted to all these things. This is social work.
Prabhupāda: Six hundred million, and out of that sixty-thousand joined, and it became successful. Sixty thousand joined by statistics. Actually worker, I don't think more than ten thousand people. Exactly like Indian village. Here there is no business. They simply reside.
Brahmānanda: Yes. (break) (outside:)
Satsvarūpa: ...it's over there somewhere. He's one of the world's richest men, H. L. Hunt. He's a Dallas oil millionaire. Some devotees tried to approach him, but at his house he has servants and... At least the servant took a Bhagavad-gītā. They couldn't see the man himself.
Dayananda: He died. A few months ago. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...otogrika? (?) Similar like that. (break) ...dollars?
Brahmānanda: Daily.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is another foolish. (laughter) I can...
Yogeśvara: He wrote against Vedic culture by saying that even the brāhmaṇas of Vedic culture were not responsible because the culture failed. It ended at a certain period in history. It was simply exploitation of the workers under the guise of religion. That was his argument.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: That was not the fault of the
Prabhupāda: The argument of foolish man—who is caring? Vedic culture when finished?
Yogeśvara: (break) ...five thousand years ago.
Prabhupāda: Sixty years? Continually?
Dhanañjaya: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: We have no worker. That is the... So even if we secure land, if there is no worker, what is the use? All this land is not being worked on. No work prepared. (break) ...Bon Mahārāja's tomb? (break) ...maṭha.
Gurṇārṇava: What are the inscriptions?
Prabhupāda: Dvaitādvaita, I think. Nimbārka philosophy.
Brahmānanda: What are these things? Gates or something?
Prabhupāda: Yes, philosophy. They wanted to make it Vaiṣṇava philosophy anyway. So these are different...
Prabhupāda: Babui(?). They create such nest, hanging nest. It is very nice fiber, fabricated. They know the art, simply by beaks. They have no hands. They want... They work only with the beaks, and you see the workmanship. Is our men going?
Dhanañjaya: Yes. Because the Yamunā is just close.
Akṣayānanda: Very close down that way. (break)
Dhanañjaya: Very fertile land. (break) ...used for mooring boats. Perhaps it was used for mooring boats when the river was there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is said that Yamunā was navigable river. Hm?
Brahmānanda: I was just wondering how they were mooring boats to this thing.
Prabhupāda: It is well.
Devotee (2): There's a frog that lives down there.
Prabhupāda: I think we shall return. I am getting tired. But how strongly built it is. You see? What was the mortar? Mortar, it is called? That is Madana Mohana temple. (break) ...also good datuna.(?) They use.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't find any happiness even in the hard work.
Prabhupāda: The other worker, he is seeing that "This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him." This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer?
Upendra: They say they worked hard to get there.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Upendra: They worked hard to get there.
Prabhupāda: "To get there" means?
Upendra: To get to their position they worked hard.
Prabhupāda: What is their position?
Dr. Patel: Gandhiji, when he went to one first round table conference in London, and he had to confront those women, I mean the wives of the workers of the Manchester mills, he said that "We are poor." They say, "We are poor. We are suffering for the poor of India." Then he had to give this argument that "Poors of India are much poorer than what you are." So he is trying to..., I mean, take a...
Prabhupāda: So that is bodily concept.
Dr. Patel: But he was in politics.
Prabhupāda: Poor or rich, that is due to this body.
Dr. Patel: In politics you have got to be body conscious. Politics or war is the same thing, after all. Your sphere is much different, sir, than those. And we cannot compare them with you or you with them. You are a, I mean, out and out a bhakta and a saint. He was a politician.
Prabhupāda: No. I am talking about the Bhagavad-gītā,...
Cyavana: Here it is very prominent. The workers in the fields, they are barely making enough to live from day to day. But the planters who live in France, they are taking millions of rupees and living very comfortably.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Communism is coming. Go this way?
Cyavana: Is it this way? We can go this way. This way. Or better this way. Now he's coming the other way.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcar—the same thing—you drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: This is the right path, original, authentic.
Prof. Olivier: There were not very many great scholars in South Africa amongst our Indian community, you know. They came out by and large as workers on the sugar plantations. A few were Christian missionaries, a few were jewelers and tailors and so on. And then for the last hundred years they were occupied in resisting...
Prabhupāda: Political struggle.
Prof. Olivier: Political struggles or resisting this transportation back to India, and they were fighting to make a living, you know, finding their own place in the country. And it's only, as I see that in the future as I've been telling them that we are privileged to have them here in this country with this background, and they mustn't cut themselves away from it and drift in a vacuum. They must give meaning to the essence of their own beliefs and faith. But they do not know to whom to turn.
Prabhupāda: So this is the opportunity.
Prabhupāda: Because the democracy. You will not get vote. As soon as you become honest man in the public office, nobody will be obedient to you, and it will be impossible for him to execute any... You see? The bank manager in Delhi—he was my friend—that "I am afraid of this union. If I press them to do something, they will immediately topsy-turvy the whole management." Bank manager said. "So I am afraid of the workers' union," he told me. So therefore good men, they do not go to this political post because they know they will not be able to do anything good. He will be surrounded by all rogues. Nobody will execute his order.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the future in Kali-yuga looks very bleak.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Formerly the Manchester people were exploiting Indians. Now the Ahmedabad people, they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And government is satisfied because they pay tax. "Never mind. The workers may suffer, go on suffering." This is going on. And they have lost their own culture, and they have been taught how to drink, how to eat meat. This is... (break) ...fact is that Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animal; then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... (BG 18.42). There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?"
Prabhupāda: No, no. What is that teaching?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything belongs to the state.
Ambarīṣa: The worker is supreme.
Haṁsadūta: Everyone should work for the state, and the state will distribute fairly.
Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: The basis of the philosophy is that matter is supreme.
Ambarīṣa: And all matter is the same.
Prabhupāda: Matter is supreme. Then why the matter does not move independently?
Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: That they have no answer.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then another rascal. If matter is supreme, why don't you combine matter and let it move. So what is that supreme which is moving this matter? If they do not know, then again a rascal, in spite of so much philosophy and so much communism. Why, when Stalin and Lenin died, they simply remained matter? Why it was not moving? Where is that matter?
Ambarīṣa: They work very hard because they have a gun pointed at their head.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now the Russians are gradually trying to change to the American system in the sense that if a worker produces more, he is given some bonus. They are trying to give incentives to the workers so that they are tempted to work hard.
Prabhupāda: But what they will do with the money?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just buy a little more vodka.
Ambarīṣa: Go on vacation.
Prabhupāda: Then where is equality?
Ambarīṣa: That's why the Chinese and the Russians don't get along. The Chinese say that the Russians have diverted from Marxism.
Prabhupāda: Take away the...
Tejās: Yes, the workers there... There's about sixty percent of their buses only, running. Forty percent are disabled because they are always losing the parts somehow.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Also, I know, in Delhi, what the people do is... A lot of people, they don't buy the ticket. They give the conductor half the money, and so he lets them go free.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Then where the income? There is no income and there is loss.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Not everyone does it, but students and a lot of young people do that.
Tejās: Students coerce them. They stop the buses. If the bus driver doesn't stop, they'll break the windows and then they all get on and they ride free. They were burning many buses.
Prabhupāda: Where is equal right? Even in Russia there is no equal rights. They have created some of them are managers, and some of them are workers. Why? If equal rights, then everyone should be manager.
Harikeśa: Well, in America they have women senators now.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Women senators, women are in charge of companies sometimes.
Indian man: No, in India there are two women. They are high commissioners of India to the foreign countries.
Prabhupāda: No, that is possible. That it requires education. That is another... By nature the woman's body is different from man's.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Harikeśa: So, in a...
Prabhupāda: Exactly the same way. In the factory there is big fire and there are workers also.
Harikeśa: But the life is the workers not the fire.
Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say, in the midst of fire, the living entity can live. That is my argument.
Akṣayānanda: But they can't jump in the fire and live. They will die.
Prabhupāda: No. That is material body. Spiritual... In the Bhagavad-gītā there is, (it says that) it does not burn into fire, in the fire. Adāhyaḥ, adāhyaḥ. So living entity is never burnt. Even if he's in the fire. So he may have a body of fire but he does not burn.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man: If manager does..., if the worker does something wrong, the manager is indirectly responsible.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why do you say manager? You are doing...
Indian man: Yes, but suppose...
Prabhupāda: No "I suppose." That is not suppose. You are doing sinful activities or pious activities. It is you, ātmā, jīvātmā.
Indian man: So that means jīvātmā, he is...
Prabhupāda: Responsible...
Indian man: ...responsible for any good or bad deeds for my life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say the dialectic. The dialectics should proceed further. They have ended this, that the workers should be the proprietor.
Harikeśa: So now the, the, the, there's no philosophy. So the workers, they are simply frustrated. Now they're going to rebel and revolt without any philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be natural. Because if you cannot live perfect philosophy, then they will revolt. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ... You are a rascal, and you're trying to lead other rascals with some rascal philosophy. How long this rascaldom will go on?
Harikeśa: So there's no need for any movement...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: ...Communist movement.
Prabhupāda: There is need of movement.
Prabhupāda: They have accepted dialectic. They.... Marx says that this should be the conclusion of materialism: ultimately the worker shall enjoy.
Harikeśa: Fruitive, it's very fruitive.
Prabhupāda: That is good idea. But who is the worker, he does not know. Write small pamphlet. Just like our Svarūpa Dāmodara has written small pamphlet. People, general people, they're also rascals, andhā. They can accept these rascals. But why we shall accept?
Harikeśa: This is experimental philosophy.
Prabhupāda: But that.... Experimental philosophy means rascaldom. You do not know actually what is the fact. Then you make experiment. That means you are rascal.
Harikeśa: I meant that this thesis, antithesis...
| Page Title: | Workers (Conversations 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 12 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=49, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 49 |