Here, in the material world, all activities are going on as kāma. You can expand. First of all you are satisfied by satisfying your senses. Just like a small child: you give you him something eatable, immediately he puts it in his mouth. This is satisfaction. He wants to satisfy his senses. When he grows up, he may distribute that eatable to his other brother and sisters. So this does not mean you have changed the quality of sense gratification. It is very . . . (indistinct) . . ..
In the material world we see sometimes you are working for your family. But if you work for the nation, you become a very great man. But what is the basis? The basis is sense gratification. Very big, big politicians, they work for the nation, sacrifice their life, but that exalted position, it is not nirguṇa; it is saguṇa. You can expand, expand, expand—unless you come to the point of satisfying the senses of Kṛṣṇa, you are saguṇa. And when you live to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, that is nirguṇa, that is devotion. In that state, you can satisfy Kṛṣṇa and your life is successful.