Karandhara: They don't even talk about God, transcendental meditation.
Satsvarūpa: Creative Intelligence.
Bali Mardana: Psychological.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students know they're cheaters.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it has been accepted all over the country.
Hṛdayānanda: Not by the intelligent.
Bali Mardana: They're tricking the government.
Prabhupāda: Not... I don't accept. We don't accept. Why do they say "all over the country"?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges.
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have departments.
Prabhupāda: They why they are complaining?
Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students all criticize it. Many, many people criticize it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a big pamphlet.
Bali Mardana: They've made...
Prabhupāda: What is that meditation?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes... (indistinct) ...I think. You have to pay some money for that.
Hṛdayānanda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money.
Bali Mardana: But they don't, they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: They why "Transcendental"?
Bali Mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have so many scientific tests like blood tests, the blood, circulation of the blood is improved, the mental condition is improved.
Prabhupāda: That is all material. That has nothing to do with spiritual. Blood is not spiritual. It is material.
Bali Mardana: It may have some material advantage.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Blood is there in the cats and dogs also. That is also circulatlng.
Karandhara: A combination of psychotherapy and (indistinct).
Bali Mardana: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: No,...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they are saying...
Prabhupāda: Even an animal, the blood circulation is better. Therefore he's better than transcendental meditation. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they're saying that, uh...
Prabhupāda: If the transcendental meditation is concerned with the blood circulation, you'll find in the animals, the blood circulation is first-class. Therefore above transcendental.
Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for that reason.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, actually, transcendental meditation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these people are saying that if I compare with a man who is practicing transcendental meditation with a normal man, then... They compare different, these tests, they're called physiological tests.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That physiological test, you can do between man and animal. The animal will be found better. Their circulation of blood is most natural.
Karandhara: Also the state of mind which they claim is beneficial, the same state of mind can be reached more quickly by smoking opium.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: Well.
Bali Mardana: We know from experience.
Karandhara: Yes. Calm state of mind, emitting alpha rays, alpha brain waves. Smoke opium you get the same thing.
Hṛdayānanda: Really? No, the intelligent students all know it's cheating.
Umāpati: They say that's an easy way.
Karandhara: Why not take the easy way?
Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "transcendental meditation," but it is not actually transcendental.
Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the...
Prabhupāda: Bring any student of transcendental meditation and talk with our student. He'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test.
Hṛdayānanda: You're right, Prabhupāda. They're cheaters. I talked to one of their leaders at a college, and I, I defeated all their points. Then they simply became embarrassed and said, "Well, I don't want to talk any more." And they went away.
Prabhupāda: That's good. (laughter)
Karandhara: They made this one machine to test how advanced they were.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Karandhara: It had a light bulb on it. So they put a thing on the person's head, and when he's in transcendental meditation, if the light bulb goes on, then he's in samādhi. So one man came and smoked opium and put the machine on his head and the light stayed on. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: They are speaking of "transcendental," but testing by mundane.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Transcendental perfection is tested by mundane instruments.
Hṛdayānanda: Boy, that's contradiction.
Bali Mardana: They don't ever use the word "trans..." They just call it "TM."
Prajāpati: (break) ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, is what's called "linguistic analysis."
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Prajāpati: So they don't want to find out really what God is, but simply what do you mean when you use the word "God".
Prabhupāda: We mean God is great. That's all. There is no need of linguistic analysis. One word is sufficient. God is great.
Karandhara: They would say the psychology of that is that you're suffering from an inferiority complex.
Prabhupāda: Eh. You are inferior. You are being kicked every moment by the laws of nature. How do you claim that you are superior? Why you are covering? Because you are kicked by the laws of material nature.
Umāpati: There's no complex.
Prabhupāda: There is no question... You have to cover yourself.
Bali Mardana: They say that...
Prabhupāda: How do you say you are superior? You are inferior. As soon as you cover your body, you are inferior.
Karandhara: They say, "Well, we, I made this hat. So whatever inferiorities I have, I can conquer them by my intelligence."
Prabhupāda: But that intelligence, superior intelligence will never come to you. You'll always remain inferior.
Hṛdayānanda: What about death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always inferior.