Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upāsana. That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhakta prakṛta smṛta. This is material. But when you are pakkā, practiced, then you go to the nitya-dhāma. And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yuktā upāsate. The upāsana continues.
Indian man: That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death.
Prabhupāda: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20).
Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what . . .
Prabhupāda: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body.
Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion.
Prabhupāda: Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul.
Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas, you enjoy and suffer according to your karma.
Prabhupāda: That is body, all body.
Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that?
Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee.
Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins . . .
Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya-yuktā upāsate.
Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee . . .
Prabhupāda: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upāsana eternally.
Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world?
Prabhupāda: That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad-gītā? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that?
Indian man: Our śāstras say eternal world . . .
Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . .?
Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there.
Prabhupāda: So that is mokṣa. When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa. That is mokṣa.
Indian man: Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramātmā? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This word is used, sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Find out this verse. Everything is there.
Hari-śauri: We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes.
Prabhupāda: So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse.
- paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo
- 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ
- yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- naśyatsu na vinaśyati
- (BG 8.20)
Prabhupāda: Na vinaśyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain.
Vāsughoṣa: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is."
Prabhupāda: That is sanātana.
Vāsughoṣa: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse?
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanātana. That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanātana-dhāma, God is there, sanātana, and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much.