Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they'll say their system is also perfect, but there's some that don't follow.
Trivikrama: No, but their system is not perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you have to establish. But not on the basis that some do not follow.
Bhāgavata: So it didn't save the man who created it. The man who founded the philosophy, it didn't save him.
Madhudviṣa: What does it mean, "The saving"? He died like everyone else.
Trivikrama: Saving means saving from lust and all these things. There's so much . . . they're servants of their senses.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone requires leader, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is a fact.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they are changing leaders one after another because they think that the present leader will satisfy their present desires more.
Prabhupāda: The leader, perfect leader, is God. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānāṁ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That nitya and cetana, all living entities, we are eternal, and we are conscious. And He is the supreme conscious. Therefore God means Supreme Being. You take His leadership. Then He'll properly guide you. That is our philosophy.
Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, actually, I think it was either Marx or . . .
Prabhupāda: But the leader says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66): "I shall give you protection from all pitfalls." This is. We also accept leader, but the most perfect leader, who can actually give me protection from all dangers. So Śrīdhara, when you go, you take some letters from me. So what happened about Ganguli? (break) . . . this nature. Just like a child is born, immediately he requires protection by mother.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are the qualifications of a perfect leader?
Prabhupāda: No mistake, no illusion, no cheating, no imperfection. Anyone who commits mistake, he's illusioned, he's a cheater and imperfect—he cannot lead. So bring any leader of these rascal groups and test with these four principles, he is misleader.
Trivikrama: They're all servants of their senses.
Madhudviṣa: They will also say that within our movement the so-called leaders also have imperfections.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Madhudviṣa: They will say, within our movement, that the leaders also have imperfection.
Prabhupāda: No imperfection.
Trivikrama: No imperfection.