Prabhupāda: They wanted for graft, to manipulate their empire. They wanted some subordinate hands. They never wanted to give real education.
Guest (2): That's true.
Prabhupāda: They wanted that the . . . that is cooperation. That is one of the Gandhi's understanding that, "These people are ruling over us by our cooperation. Therefore let us noncooperate, and they'll fail. They'll not be able to rule."
Guest (1): Carry on their . . .
Prabhupāda: But that program was also failure because India is so poor that there was no possible to noncooperate, because Gandhi's civil disobedience movement only 60,000 men joined, and we have 600,000,000. So what is the percentage?
Guest (1): Not even one percent.
Prabhupāda: And that also, when they came back from the jail life, they decided not to do it again. Therefore Gandhi did not recommend mass civil disobedience next time. He recommended individual. (break) . . . but individual . . . (indistinct) . . . 19l7, and we got svarāja in 1947. So it was not due to civil disobedience or noncooperation. It was due to Subash Bose's INA. He thought that when he organized soldiers, and . . .
Guest (1): Put them on the battlefield, fought them, defeated them . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. And when the Britishers found, "Now the soldiers are non-cooperating. There is no hope of ruling," they left.
Guest (1): Yes. That is the truth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And Subash Bose was always against this nonviolent means. That is the difference of opinion with Gandhi. So he wanted to capture the whole power, and he captured. But Gandhi became so angry upon him that he did not attend the Congress when Subash Bose was elected President. Then other lieutenants—Subash Bose also was Gandhi's student—so when others planned, requested that, "Gandhijī is not happy. You better resign," so he resigned, and tactfully he went out of India. He knew that "So long Gandhi is there, my policy . . . I'll not be able, because there will be . . ."
Guest (1): Always opposition.
Prabhupāda: ". . . opposition." Therefore he went out and organized the INA, and that was successful. It is not Gandhi's noncooperation movement.
Guest (1): That's true. Now in the British official records which they are publishing their secret papers after twenty-five years, that knowledge is very clearly that it was this armed fight of Indian National Army which convinced the British that they could not rule India with the Indian soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real noncooperation. (laughter) What this public noncooperation will do? They are simply clerks. Some of them may be high-court judges, but no responsible post was given.
Guest (1): And all these atrocities were committed by Indians upon Indians at the orders of the British.
Prabhupāda: All the big, big secretaries, under-secretaries, governors . . . there was no minister, all European, only some clerks. So what is the use of clerks' noncooperation? They didn't care. And in order to pat Gandhi, the governor sometimes used to invite him, "Sir, you are so powerful. Kindly stop this movement." And Gandhi became puffed-up that the Britishers are very afraid of him, "No! I shall do." And Subash Bose insisting, "In this way, they'll never go by this nonviolent."
Guest (1): Human nature as it is, you can't . . . unless there is some sort of a compulsion, whether in spiritual . . .
Prabhupāda: And in politics, might is right.