So this is the proof of Arjuna's character, a devotee's character. A devotee is always devatā, demigod. So one who is devotee, one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). Sura means devatā. All the good qualities of devatā. A devotee of Kṛṣṇa will never accept that killing is very good. No. "For the satisfaction of my tongue, I shall kill so many animals." A devotee will never accept. Ahiṁśa. Ahiṁśa. That is the third quality. Amānitvam adambhitvaṁ ahiṁśā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). These are... Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Amānitvam. Amānitvam means to accept this body as "I am." This is amānitvam, er, not to accept. That is amānitvam. Everyone is proud that "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Englishman." So it is boastful, very proud of this body. So knowledge means "I am not this body. I am not this body." That is amānitvam. Adambhitvam. As soon as we become aware that "I am not this body," then my false pride immediately goes. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁśā. Then ahiṁśā, nonviolence. Ārjavam, simplicity. There are eighteen qualifications of the demigods. So one who becomes a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious, these, all these good qualities develop. So here is the proof, that Arjuna, because he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is considering, "Whether I shall kill them or not?" Ahiṁsā. It is consideration, not that it is final settlement.
Proof (Lectures)
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
As soon as we become aware that "I am not this body," then my false pride immediately goes. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁśā. Then ahiṁśā, nonviolence. Ārjavam, simplicity. There are eighteen qualifications of the demigods. So one who becomes a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious, these, all these good qualities develop. So here is the proof, that Arjuna, because he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is considering, "Whether I shall kill them or not?" Ahiṁsā. It is consideration, not that it is final settlement.
Just like this child, a different body. And when that child will be young girl, that will be a different body. But the spirit soul is there in this body and that body. So this is the proof that spirit soul does not change, the body changed. This is the proof. I am thinking of my childhood. That means I am the same "I" which I was existing in my childhood, and I remember in my childhood I was doing this, I did that. But that childhood body is no longer. That is gone. Therefore it is conclusion that my body has changed, but I am the same.
Guru means he should give evidences from śāstra. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ: (BG 16.23) "Anyone who does not give evidences, proof, from the śāstra, then" na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti, "he does not get at any time success," na sukham, "neither any happiness in this material world," na parāṁ gatim, "and what to speak of elevation in the next life." These are the injunction.
If you don't follow the king's instruction or government's instruction, then there is police force, military force. That is śāstra. And there is śāstra also. Śāstra means book, scripture. Just like Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. So we must be ruled, either by śāstra, śāstra or guru. Or becoming śiṣya. Therefore it is said: śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7). "I become voluntarily... I surrender unto You." "Now you become śiṣya. What is the proof that you have become My śiṣya?" Śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam. "Now I am fully surrender." Prapannam.
As soon as there is soul, there must be consciousness. These things are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, and you can perceive also. I am existing in this body; you are existing in your body—how it is known? By the consciousness. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You pinch my body; I feel pain. Similarly, cats and dogs, they also feel pain or pleasure. So that is the proof of existence of the soul even in cats and dogs and human beings. The only difference is in the human form of life the consciousness is developed. So developed consciousness means to understand the Absolute Truth.
The whole purpose of practicing yoga is to control the mind, control the mind. Now, here Patañjali system, that unless you, I mean, conduct devotional service of Lord, or bhakti, there is no success of yoga. The subsequent commentators and interpreters... The difficulty is that wrong interpretation of the original text delude the audience. You see? So they are... The subsequent commentators and interpreters of the yoga reveals also a theoretical interest in God and discuss more fully the speculative problems as to the nature of God and the proof for the existence of God. They practically take up the speculative way. But Patañjali, as he is, he takes practically, that without devotion of God, there is no success of yoga.
Prabhupāda: Because your eyes are imperfect.
Indian: So what is the proof that there is soul?
Prabhupāda: Because there is a proof. As soon as the soul is gone, you are dead body. That is the proof.
Indian: I should like that thing...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Indian: I should see.
Prabhupāda: But you must be qualified to know.
Everyone, under Kṛṣṇa. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya (CC Adi 5.142). Therefore everyone is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the only master. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram: (BG 5.29) "I am the enjoyer only. I am the proprietor." Kṛṣṇa says. That is the fact. So we are changing our body, but Kṛṣṇa does not change. One should understand this. The proof is that Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). He remembers past, present and future.
The body is changing, and the vivid example? That in this life you are changing body. So what is the difficulty of understanding this simple truth that the soul is different from the body? And so far eternity of the soul, that is also, there is proof. Because in childhood I was present, in boyhood I was present, in youthhood I was present, and in this old age I am still present. (baby fussing) So naturally it is concluded that when I change this body, I exist. When I change this body... This body will be changed. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the parents of this child... Now she is, say, one-feet long only.
The proof is that I can feel pains and pleasure on my body. That is explained in this verse. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya (BG 2.14). Actually the body in touch with the consciousness feeling pains and pleasure. Otherwise body, what is this body? It is a lump of matter. It is a lump of matter, earth, water, fire, air, material combination of matter. Just like you make one doll, combination of matter, earth, water, fire... Or no fire.
Unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, why he'll take the trouble, twenty-four hours, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa"? This is the symptom. The symptom is further explained that as soon as you see one man and you remember Kṛṣṇa, that means he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. So our men, wherever they go, people say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!"—by seeing him only. Therefore the man is Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the proof. That is the statement of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "If by seeing one person you remember Kṛṣṇa, that person is Kṛṣṇa conscious."
So everything has got a different type of calculation, measurement. But so far the soul is concerned, it is said here, aprameyasya, there is no source of measurement. There is no source. Therefore, the so-called materialist science, they say there is no soul. No, there is soul. This is the proof there is soul. This is the proof. What is that proof? First of all there is consciousness. This is the proof. But you cannot measure. The place is also located. The soul is there in the heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61).
If there is some evidence in the Vedas... Just like in law court, if there is some section in the lawbook, then the lawyers, the judge, accept it. "Yes, it is like this." Similarly knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So perfect knowledge is there. Therefore if the evidence is there in the statement of Vedas, that is the proof. Śabda-pramāṇa. There are three kinds of evidences. Pratyakṣa, direct sense perception, and śabda-pramāṇa, evidence from the Vedic statement, and anumāna, aitihya, historical or hypothesis.
Viṣṇujana: Purport: "As described above, the magnitude of the soul is such that for our material calculation he cannot be detected even by the most powerful microscope. Therefore he is invisible. As far as his existence is concerned, nobody can establish his experimental stability beyond the proof of śruti, or Vedic wisdom."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now here Kṛṣṇa says that "Don't care for this body. There is soul." That is śruti. Śruti means you hear from Kṛṣṇa; then you understand. Otherwise there is no possibility to understand. The same example, as I have several times said, that who is your father? That you can under(stand) simply by hearing from your mother. That's all.
Just like the sun-god is diffusing the effulgence of his bodily light in this universe, in one universe. Similarly the original person, He is diffusing that light. So those who are less intelligent, they simply can see that light; therefore they say light. But in the Vedic literature there is information that you have to search out the Supreme Person penetrating the light. In the Īśopaniṣad it says, "My dear Lord, please wind up this effulgent light so that I can see Your face actually." That is stated in the Vedic literature. So originally the Absolute Supreme Truth is a person. If you want proof from Vedas, there is proof. Bhagavad-gītā is proof. Why should we accept a third-class man who is speaking something against? Is that man greater than Kṛṣṇa? Then why shall I talk about him? He's not important even ordinary man. We shall treat all these persons less intelligent, foolish. They have no perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth.
Many ācāryas have commented on Bhagavad-gītā. There is Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya. But never said that Bhagavad-gītā is proof of nonviolence. Nonviolence is good but when there is dharma-yuddha, righteous fighting, there is no question of nonviolence. Violence is approved.
Perhaps you know, every one of you, that he propounded nonviolence, and he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. He has got an annotation of Bhagavad-gītā, and he has tried to prove that Bhagavad-gītā, there is proof, nonviolence. But actually, Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken in the battlefield, where everyone is prepared to start violence. Simply for a moment, when Arjuna was disturbed in his mind, that "How can I fight with my relatives and friends and sons and grandsons and so, so many things?" Bodily relations.
The proof of the sacrifice, yajña, is mentioned in the Vedic scripture. After the creation, it was so announced that "If you want to be happy, you must perform sacrifices." Sacrifices.
Now, if we imitate that "These boys and girls are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is a name only. So let me chant... Instead of Kṛṣṇa, let me chant John," but that chanting will not help you because you cannot chant more than three, four times or ten times, that's all. But this is the proof. And this Hare Kṛṣṇa, this chanting, if you ask these boys and girls, they can chant continually for twenty-four hours in ecstasy, continually, without any stoppage. That is spiritual name. You cannot take any other name and chant and enjoy like that. So it is practical experience.
What is your qualification that you become God? God is not so cheap thing. People have taken it that "Everyone can become God. Every one of us God." This is another illusion, another māyā, because we do not know what is God. Here is God. He says that "Many, many millions of years ago I spoke to sun-god. I remember it." This is God. Simple truth. This is the proof that He is God. Read the explanation, purport. "In the Brahma-saṁhitā..." Read it.
There are three kinds of proofs. According to Vedic system, they accept three kinds. For establishing truth, they, they take three kinds of proofs: pratyakṣa, anumāna, aitihya. In logic also, these three kinds of proofs are accepted. What is that? Now, direct perception. You are seeing. I am sitting here. That is direct knowledge. I am seeing that you are sitting here. That is direct knowledge, pratyakṣa.
Kṛṣṇa is better thing, there is no need of proof. These European boys and girls, they have not come to me for better money. Because money is considered the best thing in the world, but they have enjoyed all these things. Therefore they are no more after money accumulation. They are after Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. They can earn. They have dedicated their life. They're doing everything for me. They could earn in their country thousands of dollars.
Entire knowledge. Any knowledge of the world, and knowledge—even material, spiritual, social, political, scientific, philosophical—any knowledge you'll find entirely in this Bhagavad-gītā. So at least this is the proof that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead because there is no other parallel book like this Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore the Bhagavad-gītā is accepted and adored by all classes of men and all over the world.
Recently I got one letter from a doctor in Toronto. He suggested there is body..., there is soul. I had some correspondence with him. Actually this is a fact. The soul is there. There are so many proofs. Not only in the Vedic literature, but even ordinary experience. The soul is there, and the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. This is going on, but unfortunately there is no serious study on the subject matter or department of knowledge in the universities. This is not very good.
We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any interpretation. And the result is that thousands of the foreign country youths, they are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. The proof is there. The proof is there. And all over the world, in Europe, America, Canada, Australia and Japan, even in Moscow and Africa, everywhere, we are not failure. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as it is, Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it is being accepted.
We do not know what is the position of my real self. That we do not know. This is called ignorance. That instruction is given in the Bhagavad-gītā in the beginning. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This living spirit... Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This, I mean to say, spirit soul is never born. Then what is this birth? The birth is of this body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram (BG 2.13). This change of body We are changing body. But I am the eternal. I know that I had a body of a child. The body is gone. The childhood body is no more existing. But I know that I had a body. This is the proof that I am eternal; the body is changing. This is the way. I was a young man; now I am old man. But I know, "I was young man. My body was like this. I was doing that." But now that is not possible because that body has gone. So similarly, the conclusion is that when this body will be vanquished, I shall accept another body.
When we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, this means Kṛṣṇa is dancing on my tongue. Otherwise why these people are chanting twenty-four hours, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa"? If you ask them to chant some other name, "Mr. John, Mr. John, Mr. John," it will be not possible. He will be tired: "No more." But you go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours. You'll never feel tired. That is the proof that the holy name of God and God is nondifferent.
Just like these boys, these American, these European boys, they are young men. Now they have taken sannyāsa and dedicated their life for service of Kṛṣṇa. They are vairāgya. They are coming from opulent nation, very rich men, rich nation. Their parents are very rich. There is no scarcity of food. There is no scarcity of money. There is no scarcity of women in the western countries. But they have left everything. Simply boys. They are all within thirty. How much a young man may have propensities for enjoying this material way of life! And when there is facilities. But how they have taken to it? This is the proof.
This is proof. So actually if we want jñāna and knowledge... because human life is meant for jñāna and knowledge. Human life is not meant for living like animals, cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be elevated to the platform of jñāna and vairāgya. That is not possible. A human being can be elevated by education, by culture, to the platform of jñāna and vairāgya. That is the ultimate goal.
There is no other reason that one can deny the existence of God. It is very simple reasoning, that who has given you the power to talk and who, if he withdraws the power from you, then what is your value? How can you boastly say that "I don't believe in God"? This very power of speaking is the proof that there is the greatest authority who gives you everything.
Dehe means in this body, and dehī means the person who is within this body, he is there, from that pea-like form. Because my form, my measurement is so small that we cannot see. It is not possible. It is ten-thousand, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. It is so small. So with our material eyes, or with your material conception, we cannot see the soul. But the soul is there, and the proof is, evidence is, because the soul is there, therefore the pea-like form, material body, is growing. Wherever there is growth...
We see the moon planet is there, we have got machine, we can go, but you cannot go. This is laws of nature. (laughter) This is laws of nature. This is practically proof. But they are so rascal, fool, they are going to another planet. They do not think with the one planet we have already failed (laughter). They are called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30)—chewing the chewed. They are being baffled every step, and still they are trying to overcome the laws of nature. This is their foolishness. Narādhama.
Kaṭha Upaniṣad says that tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This śrotriyam means that one who is coming in disciplic succession. And what is the proof that he has come under the disciplic succession? Brahma-niṣṭham. Brahma-niṣṭham means he is fully convinced about the Supreme Absolute Truth. So there you have to surrender. Praṇipāta. Praṇipāta means prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipātam, no reservation.
Just like you take a car. That is a machine. Now some way or other, if the car stops, not working, does it mean that you are finished? No. I can take another car. This is knowledge. But this knowledge is lacking. People are being educated, but they are all rascals because they have not this simple knowledge that ajaḥ śāśvato 'yam, "I am aja." How it is aja proof? Yes, there is proof. "How I am eternal?" If somebody asks that "How I am...?" (Aside:) Don't move that body, that. "How I am eternal?" There is proof. And who is giving the proof? Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavān uvāca. The highest authority, not ordinary person or any living being, Kṛṣṇa.
Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Kṛṣṇa means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is saying. He is giving the proof. What is that proof?
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- (BG 2.13)
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
Dehinaḥ. I am dehī. Dehī. This body is deha, body, but I am not this body. You think over. If you take this finger, you study, am I this finger? No, the conclusion will come: "It is my finger, not I finger." Simply little knowledge required. How? Now, Kṛṣṇa gives this example, that dehinaḥ, asmin dehe yathā dehinaḥ kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He has explained in different ways, but the beginning is this, that this body is changing.
Everyone may say, but I am not." "Why you are not?" "Now, because without Kṛṣṇa, still I am living. That is the proof that I have no love for Kṛṣṇa." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement. "If I had any drop of love for Kṛṣṇa, how I could live so long without Kṛṣṇa?" Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. So this is love of Kṛṣṇa, that "How can I live?"—separation from Kṛṣṇa. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy. And the Gosvāmīs followed them. They never said that "Now I have seen Kṛṣṇa." Never said. The Gosvāmīs... Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said that "I was dreaming Kṛṣṇa. Why you got Me awakened? I lost the chance."
First of all try to understand. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam: The presence of soul can be perceived when there is consciousness on the body. This is the proof. When you pinch my body, I feel pain, when I pinch your body, you feel pain, when I pinch an animal's body, he also feels pain. Even I pinch even the tree's body he feels pain. It is scientifically proved. Sir Jagadish Candra Bose has proved by machine that when you cut a tree, it feels pain and it is recorded in this statistic machine.
Parama, supreme. Nobody is equal to Kṛṣṇa, nobody's greater than Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is God. There are so many gods nowadays. The... Actually, the Māyāvādī philosophers, they say everyone is Nārāyaṇa. But what is the proof? We find out from the śāstra that Nārāyaṇa has got four hands. So where is your four hands? You are claiming to become Nārāyaṇa. So where are your four hands? Just manifest your four hands at least so that we can understand you are Nārāyaṇa. (chuckles) No. Without four hands. And Nārāyaṇa is Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is that proof. As I told you, that 2,500 years ago, or 5,000 years ago Vyāsadeva wrote about Lord Buddha's appearance. Still, there is appearance of Kalki from this time, henceforward, after 400,000's of years Kalki will appear. And his name, his father's name, the place where he will appear, that is mentioned in the Bhāgavata.
Now, here it is said that because it is given by the perfect person Vyāsadeva, we should take knowledge from this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And the proof is that we have now become Godless, we have no information of God, but if you read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then immediately you will realize God. Just like you can see in reality that these boys, these girls who have joined this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, because they are reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, they are now gradually realizing what is God and what is his relationship with God.
Kṛṣṇa said that, "First of all, I narrated this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." So, in order to clear this matter, Arjuna inquired from Him: "My dear Kṛṣṇa, we are born very recently. How is that You narrated this yoga system to the sun-god?" Arjuna, of course, knew everything, but in order to clear our doubts, he raised this question. And Kṛṣṇa answered that "You were also present at that time, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." So this is another proof that Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's body does not change.
Kṛṣṇa has given me a type of body so that I can enjoy, and He gives me reminder also: "Now you wanted to enjoy like this. You have got this opportunity. You do it." This is the proof. You'll find even a, what is called, the cub, born of an animal, the dog, cats and dogs, they find out where is the mother's breast. The human child also, they also try to find out where is the mother's breast. Because they, they explain it as intuition. But we don't say it is intuition.
Just like the magistrate. Magistrate is giving different judgment: "This man should be treated like this. This man should be treated..." The man, the magistrate, is the same, but because the culprit is different, therefore he has got to give different judgment. Culprit is different; he's not different. He's one. This is the proof that Paramātmā and jīvātmā are two different personalities. They're not one. This is the proof. Why? Nāneva bhāti viśvātmā. He's Viśvātmā, the Supersoul. Why one is acting as a hog, one is acting as a dog, one is acting as a demigod, Indra, Candra, Varuṇa? Why these differences? We are all living entities, jīva-tattva, and the Viśvātmā, the Supersoul, is the same in everyone's heart. Why they are acting differently? This is the proof that there is individual soul, jīvātmā, and the Paramātmā, Paramātmā is sanctioning.
We follow the great authorities-Vyāsadeva. We follow Nārada, Asita, Vyāsa. Because that is the only way to understand. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. You cannot understand His incarnation. You have to follow the footprints. Then you'll understand who is avatāra. Otherwise, instead of Kṛṣṇa, you will accept another demi-kṛṣṇa. Somebody will say, "I was Kṛṣṇa." "Oh, he's avatāra." And what is the proof that he was Kṛṣṇa? Why you are so fool? If somebody says... If I say that "I was Kṛṣṇa," so only the fools will take me that I was Kṛṣṇa, now I am dog. It is not like that.
Every day, Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma used to go in the forest and some asura would come to disturb Them, to kill Them, and Kṛṣṇa will finish them. And the friends will come at home and narrate the story to their mothers, "Mother, Kṛṣṇa is so wonderful. Such a big demon came and He killed immediately in this way and that way." That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that because one has got some so-called meditation, He becomes Kṛṣṇa without any test. But what is the proof that he is Rāma-Kṛṣṇa? But they do not take the proof. They simply pose a bogus man as Rāma-Kṛṣṇa.
Rāma-Kṛṣṇa is different from this bogus Ramakrishna. Rāma-Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān. They are actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and They proved it. Not that Rāma-Kṛṣṇa is dying out of cancer disease. Yes. We are not after such kind of Ramakrishna. Besides that, when there is real Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, why I shall go to the false and imitation Ramakrishna? They say the same Rāma-Kṛṣṇa. That's all right, the same, but I don't find any proof that the same.
Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Simply by understanding what is Kṛṣṇa... That is also not very difficult to understand if you follow the scriptural injunctions. What is Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). He is not ordinary man. His body is sac-cid-ānanda, full of bliss, eternal, and full of knowledge. So is it very difficult to understand? He has given proof that Kṛṣṇa is always enjoying bliss. And Kṛṣṇa's instruction, knowledge, there is no comparison. Bhagavad-gītā and so many other instructions.
Urukramasya, "who acts wonderfully." Not that somebody is meditating—his activities should be described. What wonderful things he has done? We are accepting anyone as God, but we do not test what, what proof he has given to become God? Here is God: Urukrama. Here is God. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God. He has done from the very childhood uncommon, wonderful activities. We are not fool that we accept somebody, a nonsense having a great beard, and we accept God. No. We must see that he has wonderful activities. What is that wonderful activities? First of all test.
Unemployed. Lean and thin and... Because he has no master. The same dog, when he has got a master, he'll be stout and strong, and he'll, as soon as you... "Owf! Owf! Bow! (laughter) I have got my master." So this is śūdra. Śūdra is compared with the dog. A dog is never happy without a master. Then it is a street dog. That is the difference between household dog and a street dog. So in this age practically you see, unless there is employment, he's a street dog. That is the proof that everyone is a śūdra. That is the proof.
So bhagavat-toṣaṇam, we must know first of all who is God, who is Bhagavān. So śāstra says, authority says, and history says. What more proof you want? Huh? What more proof? Is there anyone to challenge Kṛṣṇa? Everything is there. Still, why you are searching after God? This is foolishness. This is foolishness. Owls', owls' philosophy. Owls' philosophy... The owl will not open the eyes to see the sun. Just open your eyes, you see, here is sun. "No, there is no sun." This is owls' philosophy. Close the eyes, meditate. And the God is here, "No, I'll not open my eyes."
The picture is in our front. Personally He's teaching us, "Perform this yajña, you rascal, and you'll get everything. You'll get everything." Now, where is the proof? The proof is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and spending crores of rupees. Simply. What we are doing? We are not doing any business.
So in every way Kṛṣṇa proved the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Still, these rascals, they are searching after God. What is this nonsense? Here is God. You see that He is God in every respect according to the definition, and still, you say that "Where is God?" How much rascal they are, just imagine. Here is God, and still, they are enquiring, "What is God? Can you show me God?" What is this? Is it not rascaldom? What is this? If everything, proof is there, why they are searching after God? What is the answer? Where is the question of searching after God? Just answer this question. God is present here, and still, you are wasting your time.
Just like these rascals think it has come out of nothing. How something can come out of nothing? There is no proof, but they claim like that. Therefore they are blind. No. Bhāgavata says: janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). The original source from whom everything has come and in whom everything is existing and within whom everything will enter. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. These are the Vedic instructions.
So our scientist friend was asking that "What is the proof of eternity?" The proof is there. Kṛṣṇa says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That is the proof. Śruti. This is hearing, disciplic succession hearing from the Supreme. This is one proof. One proof is by logic, nyāya-pramāṇa. You can get your knowledge by logic, argument, philosophical research. This is all right also. But another, śruti, by hearing from the authorities. That is also knowledge. And smṛti.
Kuntīdevī did not say that "You are my nephew." No. That is not spiritual relationship. But Kṛṣṇa-sakha, Arjuna, is related with Kṛṣṇa eternally. Eternally as friend. How eternally? What is the proof? There is in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna inquired... When Kṛṣṇa said that "This system of yoga I explained to the sun-god millions of years ago," imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), at that time, to clear the idea, Arjuna, for our sake, he inquired, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, we are contemporaries.
Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira ruled over the earth. Now, it is clearly stated, paridhyupāntām, "up to the limit of the seas." That means all the seas—the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean, the biggest oceans, the Indian Ocean. That means the whole world. Here is the proof, that formerly the emperors in Hastināpura, Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, he ruled over the whole world. There was only one flag. That is also stated. Up to the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, there was no division.
We require so many things. Kṛṣṇa is prepared also to supply. Nature is there. But even Kṛṣṇa wants to supply, if you do not become devotee, nature will restrict, "No." That is the proof. When there was less supply... The Mahārāja Pṛthu wanted to kill Pṛthivī. She explained that "Why you are after me? It is my duty. Now there are only demons. I don't want to give food to the demons. I want to give foodstuff to the devotees." She said. So nature's restriction of supply will be there when people become demons, nondevotees. When people become demons, then nature will stop supply. There will be famine, pestilence. This is the way.
Rāvaṇa was very learned scholar in Vedic knowledge and very powerful materially. He converted his capital with gold, all the buildings and everything. It is supposed that Rāvaṇa's brother was a king of..., on the other side of the globe. So it is my suggestion... I do not say it is very scientific proof. So other side of the globe... Rāvaṇa was in Ceylon, and the other side of the globe, if you go by subway, it comes to Brazil.
Suppose if I would have advised my disciples that "You chant 'Mr. John, Mr. John, Mr. John,' " this movement would not have spread. (laughter) How long one can chant this "Mr. John, Mr. John"? Therefore it is the proof, that all over the world, we have got about hundred centers. Everywhere, hundred, two hundred, three hundred disciples are there. They're chanting, dancing, with Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Why? Because it is not material sound vibration. This is the proof. Don't think that Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting and chanting the name of Mr. John is the same, no. This is the proof. You can go on chanting twenty-four hours, Still, you will not feel tired. This is the golokera... This is the proof, that this hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, golokera prema-dhana, it is the property for loving. It is the thing which will lead you how to love God, prema-dhana. You will gradually develop your propensity to love Kṛṣṇa.
If I teach a dog, "My dear dog, please think of Kṛṣṇa," he is animal; it is not possible. But a human being, although at the present moment he is like a dog, but he can be trained to become a human being and think of Kṛṣṇa. That is possible. So we should take the opportunity. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). This life is gotten after many, many births. We do not know. We have forgotten. This is the opportunity. And here is the proof, śāstra, that kṛṣṇāveśena tac-cittaḥ.
Five thousand years ago, everywhere the... All people used to follow the Vedic principles. That is the proof. Because the king was following the Vedic principles. So this cow-killing by the Kali, it is said it was done on the border of India, somewhere near Sindhu Pradesh, Afghanistan, like that. So anyway, it was on this planet and he wanted to prohibit.
Tviṣā means "by the bodily skin." Just like we have different color, different skin, different color, similarly, tviṣā, by His skin, He is not kṛṣṇa, He is not black. Tviṣā akṛṣṇa. Akṛṣṇa means not black. So "not black" means you can accept any other color which is not black. So that there is proof in the śāstra that Lord, Kṛṣṇa, has also many colors. Śuklo raktas tathā pītaḥ. When, similarly, when Kṛṣṇa's horoscope was made by Gargamuni, he said that "This child formerly had śuklo raktas tathā pītaḥ. He was white color, He was yellow color, and He was red color."
The dress has got two hands, just like your coat has got two hands; actually, coat, the cloth has no hands, legs. That is impossible. But because you have got your hands, your coat has assumed the hands. So this material dress... These hands and legs are there because originally we are spirit soul, we have got hands and legs. This is the proof that we are not formless. With form. Because this body has been described as dress, outward dress, different dress. Just like we are, somebody white, somebody yellow, somebody black, somebody... This is dress. But actually, we spirit soul, we are one. It is by dress we are fighting.
In Bombay there is a so-called rascal, he says, "The chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and chanting of Coca-cola is the same." He is such a rascal. He does not know that this is not a vibration of this material world. But one who has no knowledge, they think that "What is the meaning of this chant, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa'?" But they can practically see that we can go on chanting day and night, still we shall not become tired, but any other material name you take, after chanting three times you will feel tired. That is the proof. You can go on chanting day and night, you will never feel tired. So these people, poor people, they have (no) brain to understand.
Death means forgetting about the past life. So because I have changed my body, I have forgotten. But anyone who does not change his body, he does not forget. And that is the proof that Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's body is not ordinary body. Anyone who thinks Kṛṣṇa as one of us, He is a mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). Because He comes just like a human being, we consider that He is also a human being.
Even in India, they also are surprised that how these Europeans and Americans are coming to such nice Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not only Europeans, Americans, but Africans also. This is the proof that love for Kṛṣṇa is there in everyone's heart. That is stated by Caitanya-caritāmṛta kaṛacā, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha. Eternally, it is a fact. Simply it has to be awakened. Just like attraction for the opposite sex. A girl or a boy. That is natural. It is not unnatural. It has... Nobody goes to a school and colleges how to love, how to be attracted by young man. No. It doesn't require any education.
How? What is the proof? The proof is the Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: (BG 4.9) "Anyone who understands about My birth and appearance..." Lord does not take birth. Aja. Aja means who never takes birth. Ever-existing. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san, sambhavāmi yuge yuge. So aja, one who does not take birth, but still we see that Kṛṣṇa is taking birth. We are observing the birth anniversary of Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Kṛṣṇa also comes to instruct that "You rascal, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Just revive your connection with Me, you rascal. Give up all these manufactured so-called types of yoga and religion." Sarva-dharmān paritya... That is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That is the differ... That is the proof. Kṛṣṇa says the same thing, and Kṛṣṇa's representative or incarnation or guru says the same thing. That is the qualification of guru.
The evidence is, the proof is I am implicated that there are different varieties of life. You should know that "Why there are so many varieties of life." That is explained here. The varieties of life is na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Here, and anyone who has got this material body Material body means kleśada, different degrees of kleśada. Somebody is millionaire—but don't think that his body is not kleśada.
kāma, and the proof is because in the material world everyone wants to fulfill his own desire, therefore when the desire is not fulfilled he becomes angry, manyu. The next stage is manyu. Manyu means anger. And mada, then pride, then greediness, then śoka. These are different stages. Lamentation, bhaya. So many things. What is the cause? The root cause is karma-bandha. Because I am bound up by the resultant action of my past karma.
In the city there is electric anala. And especially in New York, you know, twenty-four hours the fire brigade is working, "dung dung dung dung dung dung dung." Nobody wanted, but there is fire, just to prove that you people, you have avoided jungle life but you cannot avoid dāvānala. This is the proof. You can make arrangement, very large arrangement for living comfortably, but you cannot escape dāvānala. That is not possible.
The modern scientist calculation is ninety-three million miles, the sun is situated, and above that, sixteen hundred thousand miles up, there is moon planet. So by the Vedic calculation it is not possible to go there by the method we are attempting. That is not possible. And the proof is that why, if they are going to the moon planet, why they cannot stay there? Now, the argument is that "There is no vegetation. The atmosphere is different, where living being cannot stay."
We are prescribing the right medicine, and it is becoming very effective also. That is the proof. If you say that "How I can understand that this medicine is very effective?" Yes, it is effective. By chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, any part of the world, although they do not know the meaning, they chant and they join and they become rectified, and they become bright-faced. That is the verdict. So therefore we appeal to everyone, irrespective of any caste-creed consideration, please come, join this movement, and be happy.
If you want to see to take the proof, "Whether this gentleman is my father," that is not possible. Because he became your father before your birth, how you can see? This is the way. You have to accept authority. So things which are beyond our perception we have to accept authority. Therefore the Vedic process is, if the world perfect order is there in the Vedas... Not if; anything which is in the Vedas, that is perfect. We have to accept. Accept. This is the way, Vedic, śruti.
Very simple and easy. You are seeing practically. You boys and girls who are participating in this movement... We have got sixty branches all over the world. Outside India... India, we have got four branches only. But fifty-six branches are outside the world, outside India. And they're all foreigners. Four years, or three years ago, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. Now they are chanting, dancing, enjoying Kṛṣṇa conscious life. This is practical proof how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is effective. Before me, from India, many swamis came, but actually they could not induce the Westerners, especially the young generation, to any Indian cultural movement except this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That's a fact, historical.
God, nobody can be richer than Him, nobody can be stronger than Him, nobody can be more beautiful than Him, and nobody wiser than Him even. That proof we can see: Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and still Bhagavad-gītā is worshiped as the best book of knowledge. This is the proof. So God does not depend on anyone's proof. But if you want to prove whether He is God, you can get. That you can get.
There is ample proof in our Society. They had never any austerity, penance or celibacy, or they tried to control the senses or mind, or they gave any big amount of charities, or they observed cleanliness. Nothing of the sort. But immediately, simply by accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness, just see how they are nice. Practical proof. Now bring any yogi, any jñānī, any person undergoing severe penances, and compare with these boys and girls. He'll fail. This is practical... Simply by accepting this devotional service, kevala-bhakti, without waiting for the other penance. They're already under penance.
All these austerities, penance, charity, and cleanliness... They're clean. They're taking bath every day three times, at least two times, they are taking bath, although previous to this, perhaps weekly they were taking once bath. You see? So how they have become? This is practical proof. Vāsudeva-parāyaṇa. Therefore whole people of the world should be made vāsudeva-parāyaṇa by the simple method of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they will be all peaceful.
We do not falsely declare that "I am God." Just give proof that you are God. Then claim. But some rascal claims that he's God, and other rascals, they accept that he's God. God is not so cheap. God, as we get description from Brahma-saṁhitā: yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). Many millions of universes are coming out from the exhaling of God, and again they are disappearing by inhaling of God.
Even one priest in Boston, he was astonished that "These boys, Christian boys or the Jewish boys, they are our men. And they did not care to know what is God, what is... Now they are after God. They are mad. How it is?" There are many practical proof. Just like in our many temples. The Los Angeles temple, it was sold by the church because nobody was coming. Nobody was coming. We have many churches purchased in that way.
No sinful man can go back to home, back to Godhead. So if one is actually, somehow or other, becomes fit for going back to home, back..., that means automatically his sinful reaction of life... One may question how it is. If a man is sinful for many, many lives, how simply by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious he becomes free from the reaction? Yes. Kṛṣṇa says. You haven't got to take proof from anyone else.
As you are changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly this old body, when it is no more usable, that means death. But the subtle body, mind, intelligence, that is... We have got proof. At night this body is silent, but your mind, intelligence and ego takes you somewhere. You dream that "I have come to here."
Anywhere you keep cows. And what cows to maintain? No expenditure. The fruits? The skin thrown away, and the cow will eat. And in exchange it will give you nice foodstuff, milk. Or it will eat in the grazing ground, some grass. So there is no expenditure of keeping cows, but you get the best food in the world. The proof is that the child born simply can live on milk. That is the proof. So anyone can live only on milk. If you have got the opportunity to drink one pound milk maximum, not very much—half-pound is sufficient; suppose one pound—then you don't require any other foodstuff. Only this cow's milk will help you. It is so nice.
There is no, in the śāstras, any confirmation. He was accepted by Vivekananda. He said that "I am the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa," and Vivekananda accepted. So anyone can say like that; anyone can accept. But that is the test? What is the proof? You can say that "I am the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa," but because you say, I'll have to accept? So that is nonintelligent. So the Brahmā and Indra, they are not fools.
Soul is not in the brain, not in the here, there. No. Therefore when the soul is taken away, going away from the heart, we say "heart failure." Heart failure means the soul has gone. The soul lives in the heart. This is proof from the śāstra. Not only the soul, but the Supersoul also is there. Supersoul is God, Kṛṣṇa, and the individual soul, they're living together. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61).
Just like one has committed murder, so by law he must be hanged. By law. That is the general law everywhere, all over the world: life for life. So similarly, in the God's law there is no such thing that if you kill a human being you'll be killed, and if you kill an animal you won't be killed. That is imperfect law, man-made law. Therefore Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." No question of... They have modified, "This killing means murdering." Christ does not say. What is your proof that if you committed mistake, a mistake, instead of writing "Thou shall not commit murder," here is written, "Thou shall not kill," general. Otherwise Christ has no intelligence. He cannot use the proper word. But you are misusing the order of Lord Christ.
At least we have got some support of the books. But what you have got? You are simply imagining, "I think," "I believe." What is this nonsense? What is your proof? Everyone is saying "I believe." Hundreds and thousands... And what is correct? Everyone... At least, we have got something correct. We don't say "I believe." This is not our process of knowledge. We, Kṛṣṇa conscious person, we never say "I believe." No, we immediately quote from the śāstra.
According to Vedic civilization, evidence, is śruti, Vedas. If you say something and if you give evidence, proof from the Vedic literature, then it is perfect. No such nonsense things: "I believe," "We believe," "Perhaps," "Maybe." No. Such foolish things are not accepted. Then everyone will say something. There are thousands and millions of people, everyone will imagine something and say something.
It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā that yeṣāṁ tu anta-gataṁ pāpam: by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, one gradually becomes free from all sinful reaction. Yeṣāṁ tu anta-gataṁ. Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). And the proof is, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā,
- anta-kāle ca mām eva
- smaran muktvā kalevaraṁ
- yaḥ prayāti sa mad-bhāvaṁ
- yāti nāsty atra saṁśayaḥ
- (BG 8.5)
If at the time of death one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then he is glorious. Nāsty atra saṁśayaḥ. Here is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā, nāsty atra. Anta-kāle: "At the time of..." I have several times said, the test will be examined at the time of death.
Just these American boys and girls, their fathers and their guardians, they are not poor. There is no scarcity of food or any material enjoyment. Why they are being frustrated? In India... You may say that India is poverty-stricken. They may be frustrated due to poverty, but why American boys and girls are being frustrated? That is the proof that materialistic way of life cannot make you happy. You may go on for some time to become happy, but happiness will never come from materialistic way of life. That's a fact. So those who are trying to be happy by adjustment of materialistic way of life, they cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
The Supreme Lord is called Viṣṇu, all-pervading, the word used here, viṣṇoḥ. Viṣṇu means who is all-pervading at the same time He's a person. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is person; at the same time, He is all-pervading. How it is? In our material conception we cannot imagine, but there is a proof in your presence.
Perhaps in this meeting I am the only Indian, but all my students here, they are all Americans. They belong to different faith. How they are developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I am not bribing them, I have no money. But still, why they are so much affectionate? This is the proof that everyone has got dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness within himself. It is not an artificial thing. Simply you have to develop it. It is not taught actually.
I think in China and Korea they are very much fond of dog-eating. So they are the lowest. So if... So here it is proof that dog-eaters or pig-eaters or any low-grade man is not prohibited to become a devotee. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They say that without becoming a Hindu or born in India, nobody can become brāhmaṇa, nobody can become sannyāsī. But here is the proof. In the śāstra it says, śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. The dog-eater is also highly praised.
This much tapasya. So if somebody says that "Lord Caitanya gave us, certainly, but what is the proof that we are being purified?" No, there is proof. "Where?" It is stated in the śāstra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He's the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says, that is law. Still He does not act in that way. He gives reference to the śāstras. This is mentioned in the śāstra. In the Bhāgavata also it is mentioned, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51).
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
In the Bhagavad-gītā when Kṛṣṇa appeared in His universal form, Arjuna prayed, 'My dear Kṛṣṇa, I thought of You as my cousin-brother, and so I have shown disrespect to You in so many ways, calling You Kṛṣṇa, or friend, but You are so great that I could not understand.' So that was the position of the Pāṇḍavas; although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the greatest among all greats, still He remained with those royal brothers, being attracted by their devotion, by their friendship and by their love. That is the proof of how great this process of devotional service is. It can attract even the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The faith is not blind. There is proof. He, the cobbler was not blindly believing that Nārāyaṇa was pulling an elephant through the hole of an needle, but he sees practically the potency, the power of the Lord, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10), how He keeps all the potencies of the banyan tree within the seed. So otherwise there is no meaning, "all-powerful." He can do whatever He likes. Inconceivable. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī therefore explains that unless we believe (in the) inconceivable potency of the Lord, then we cannot understand that activities...
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
We, anyone who is in this material world, he's in darkness. Darkness means ignorant, no knowledge. They are mostly animals. "Why they are animals, so civilized men, so well-dressed and university education degrees? Why they are in darkness?" Yes, they are in darkness. "What is the proof?" The proof is that they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the proof. That is their darkness. Ask anybody, item by item, that... Ask, what do they know about Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is ignorant, dark. So that is the proof. How this is proof? Now, Kṛṣṇa says. We do not say; Kṛṣṇa says.
We are very much afraid of being annihilated, and we are trying to discover many scientific, so-called scientific methods how we may not be destroyed. Why this inclination that we may not be destroyed? Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; therefore eternity of life is our aspiration. That is the proof that we are..., Kṛṣṇa is eternal, similarly, we are also eternal. But circumstantially we are now put into this material world. Therefore our main business is how to revive our original position, not to be annihilated, never annihilated.
Who is spiritual master? Now, evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). By the paramparā system, one who has got the knowledge, he's a spiritual master, and the proof is—how one is spiritual master—that means paramparā, as Kṛṣṇa says. He does not change the words of Kṛṣṇa, but he follows the words of Kṛṣṇa and preaches the words of Kṛṣṇa. That is the proof of spiritual master. That's all. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Firm faith, unflinching devotion at the lotus feet of the Lord, and speaking what the Lord spoke.
If you don't accept... If the father says, "You are my son," and the son says, "No, I am not your son," oh, that is son's prerogative. He may deny it if he doesn't believe his mother. Now what is the proof that one man is my father? The mother is the proof. There is no other source of understanding who is my father. If a boy wants to understand, "Who is my father?" the only authority is the mother. Mother will say, "My dear boy, my dear child, here is your father." You have to accept. If you say, "I don't accept. I must have proof that he is my father." How it is possible? It is not possible.
Sri Isopanisad Lectures
This is Vedic mantra. This is the proof, Veda mantra. Why we are attached to Veda mantra? Veda mantra is the proof of everything. Whatever is said in the Vedas, that is fact. Unless you take some axiomatic truth in that way, you cannot make progress. Just like in geometry there are so many axiomatic truths, we have to accept it. "A point has no length, no breadth." "Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another."
Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Things which are inconceivable by you, you cannot argue. Then it will be a failure. You have to accept that axiomatic truth. It is not dogmatic. It is not dogmatic in this sense, because our predecessor ācāryas, they accepted. What you are that you are arguing? So that is the proof. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. If you argue, there is no conclusion. The argument will go on. You put some argument; I put some argument.
Festival Lectures
Just like a small child, it is crying. It cannot express, but it is wanting the mother's breast feeding. So you cannot stop him crying unless it is transferred to the mother. Similarly, actually we love Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Because we love Kṛṣṇa... Therefore you, who did not hear even the name of Kṛṣṇa, say, four or five years ago, why you after so much Kṛṣṇa? This is the proof, that actually we are after Kṛṣṇa. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being accepted in Western countries by the younger generation. Why? Because every one of us, we love Kṛṣṇa. But it is now covered by māyā. We have to simply take out the covering, māyā; then we are Kṛṣṇa conscious.
We can go through many so-called proofs or logical proofs. Simply because that fact is already established, I might give one or two. We can understand in our mundane logic that if something exists, that there's some reason for its existence, and similarly, if something does not exist, that there's some reason for that. Just as we can say something exists... For example, a harmonium exists because somebody has made that harmonium.
Why should you go to the demigods? What is the necessity? He's not bona fide. Because he has insufficient knowledge. Bona fide spiritual must be sufficiently knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam; God says, mām ekam. Why he should go to demigods? That is his proof that he's not bona fide.
Arrival Addresses and Talks
You see in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva yoniṣu kaunteya. "In all species of life." Sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. There are as many different forms of life. Tāsāṁ mahad yoni, brahma: "Their mother is this material nature, and I am their seed-giving father." Kṛṣṇa says that. So how can Kṛṣṇa be Indian or Hindu or this or that? No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And the proof is that five years ago in the Western countries nobody knew what is Kṛṣṇa. How they're taking Kṛṣṇa in so loving attitude? This is the proof that Kṛṣṇa is for everyone, and everyone is for Kṛṣṇa.
When I first came here to see this church, there was nobody. The place is the same. The people is the same. I have not brought men from India. Why it is crowded now? This is the proof that in everyone's heart Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya. It is not artificial way of taking something sentimentally. Otherwise how in my absence all these boys and girls are maintaining the status quo very nicely? I am very glad. That is required. This is the proof that in everyone's heart there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Brahmānanda: There is proof of it just in Berkeley where we have our Ratha-yātrā. The police say that this... Or we have our parades there, and they are all peaceful, whereas other groups, they have parades, and they always...
Prabhupāda: "Window-breaking."
Brahmānanda: Yes, violent.
Prabhupāda: "Window-breaking crowd." We are not that. (break) Let them have this O'Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Initiation Lectures
Kṛṣṇa is not like us. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. How He is Supreme Personality of Godhead? That He proved when, while He was present. The history is there. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Kṛṣṇa's activities, Kṛṣṇa's wisdom, lecture, Bhagavad-gītā—everything is there. They are the proofs. There is a very nice verse by Yamunācārya that there are authentic literatures, there are authentic personalities, and they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Authentic literatures, they give proof that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And by His wonderful activities we can understand that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But still, the atheistic rascal will not accept. You see? There are sufficient proofs.
Cornerstone Ceremonies
Actually that is being done. Everyone goes out of India. They go there to exploit. But it is for the first time that India is giving something to the outsiders, this spiritual knowledge. And the proof you can see. We are giving, we are not taking. We do not go to beg, "Give me wheat, give me money, give me this, give me that." No. We are giving something substantial, and they are feeling obliged.
General Lectures
So both Lord Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa are spiritual master. Is there any difficulty to understand? So anyone who represents Lord Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa, he is spiritual master. That's all. Anyone who speaks exactly what Lord Caitanya said, exactly what Kṛṣṇa said, then he is spiritual master. Just like a teacher who says that "I have passed M.A." Now what is the proof? That means if he speaks exactly like persons who have passed M.A. examination, then he is M.A. A medical practitioner who is approved by other medical practitioners in the medical college, he is medical practitioner.
Jaya-gopāla: Is past, present and future, in the material sense, a perverted reflection of the same...
Prabhupāda: Yes, past, future, present is according to the different kinds of relativity. That is a scientific proof. Professor Einstein has proved it. Just like your past is not past of Brahmā. Your present is not the present of an ant. So past, present, future-time is eternal. It is according to the different dimension of body relativity. Time is eternal. Just like a small ant. In twenty-four hours he has twenty-four times past, present and future.
Jaya-gopāla: But how does one show such an impersonalist with absolute proof logically? I was told Śrīla Bhaktivinoda has such a proof.
Prabhupāda: Apart from Bhaktivinoda, try to understand in your common sense.
Jaya-gopāla: Yes, I can see this.
Prabhupāda: Just like sun planet, there is sunshine. The sunshine is impersonal, but if you have got power to enter into the sun globe, then you will find there, there are so many persons, they have got fiery body. It is not a fact in other planets there is no life. That is a nonsense. Every planet there is life, but they have got different situation, different atmosphere. The moon planet is very cold. Even the modern scientists, they agree that the temperature in the moon planet is below two hundred degree zero. So it is very cold.
Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. If you have no money, then borrow or steal, but live very nicely for sense pleasure." That is Cārvāka Muni's theory, and mostly, at the present moment, that theory is being followed. But the question is that Cārvāka Muni says there is no next life. What is the proof? Does it mean that his word is proof that there is no next life? Then everyone will say something. Of course, that is being accepted. Anyone discovers or says something nonsense, it is accepted.
You have to accept knowledge from the authority. Therefore the Vedic system has rejected the Cārvāka Muni. He has no authority. He is authority himself. He says that there is no life, but what is the proof? But there are many proofs that there is next life. So who will accept Cārvāka Muni's theory? Nobody. No sane man will accept. And suppose if there is life. There are two philosophers: one says that there is no life, other says there is life.
So we have to take Kṛṣṇa the authority, Veda-Vyāsa the authority. There are many such authorities. So there is next life. There is no doubt. The practical proof there is... And Kṛṣṇa has given many proof. I have spoken in this meeting many times. There is next life. So we should be responsible. This human form of life should not be wasted simply for sense gratification. That sense gratification facility is in every... Even in the cats and dogs, there is that facility.
Young man (1): You referred earlier to some proofs of after-life. And I came in late. So I don't know if you've mentioned it earlier, but I wonder are these available in writing in English, and do people here know of them? That is, where would I look at such a thing?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wishes to see proof of after-life, either in writing or he wants to know if there is something...
Prabhupāda: After-life proof?
Young man (1): I'm interested in that idea. What proof is there, and is it available in English so that I could read it and study it and examine it carefully?
Viṣṇujana: Is it available in writing.
Madhudviṣa: He wants to read it in a book, something that explains the validity of the statement that there's an after-life.
Prabhupāda: Read Bhagavad-gītā. You study Bhagavad-gītā, you'll understand everything.
In every home, there is Rāma and Kṛṣṇa worship. Not this Ramakrishna. Neither any ācārya accepts him. If Ramakrishna... He said himself that "One who was Kṛṣṇa, one who was Rāma, I am the same." So his disciple accepted. Vivekananda accepted. But in that way, if somebody dies, he says, "One who was Kṛṣṇa, one was Rāma, I am," his sons accept. That is not the way of. There must be proof. Kṛṣṇa is accepted by Vyāsadeva, by Nārada, by Caitanya, by Rāmānuja, by so many great scholars, stalwarts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all Indians as God. And He has proved Himself, His activities. There is Vedic proof, scholarly proof, authority proof.
If somebody comes here and says, "I am President Johnson," so any sane man will accept him simply because he says? And if somebody accepts him blindly, then he's a fool. Oh, he must... He says. Let us test whether he is bona fide, his credentials, how he is President Johnson. So we cannot accept even a man. How can we accept God without credentials? What is the credential of Ramakrishna that he is incarnation of God? These things are to be considered. Not that because Vivekananda accepted, therefore one has to accept. What is the credential? What is the proof? What is the extraordinary work? Lord Rāma is accepted God. There are so many extraordinary work. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as God. He has got so many extraordinary work.
Somebody has written in the name of Kṛṣṇa that 'Kṛṣṇa said,' 'God said.' " No. This is called disciplic succession. You will see in this book, Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa said, and how Arjuna understood. These things are described there. And the sādhu, saintly person, beginning from Vyāsadeva, Nārada, down to many ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and latest, Lord Caitanya, in this way, they have accepted: "Yes. It is spoken by Kṛṣṇa." So this is the proof. If saintly persons have accepted... They have not denied. Authorities, they have accepted, "Yes." This is called sādhu. And because sādhu, saintly persons have accepted, therefore it is scripture. That is the test.
Young woman: (indistinct) proofs (indistinct) of the name of God?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Young woman: How do you know that a name is approved?
Prabhupāda: How do you know even your name? How do you know?
Young woman: It's given by a human being.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Young woman: It was told to me by a person.
Prabhupāda: So who? Who told you?
Young woman: I suppose my mother.
Prabhupāda: Why do you believe her? That is your name?
Young woman: Why do I believe her?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why do you believe her? I say that it is not your name.
Prabhupāda: That, it will take some time. How do you know he's your father? Some gentleman comes. Your mother says, "He's your father." How do you know it?
Young woman: I have no proof?
Prabhupāda: Can you have any proof, that he's your father?
Young woman: I suppose there will be biological...
Prabhupāda: No. You are not born at that time. How can you know that he is your father? You have to take, accept, your mother's version. That's all. That is your authority. Your mother says, "This gentleman is your father." You have to accept it. There is no other way to understand.
We must enjoy life very nicely. But that is not possible here, because here we are in diseased condition. The proof of diseased condition is that there is birth, death, old age and disease. These are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Every effort is being made here to surpass distressed condition and to reach to the platform of happiness.
Just like in this life we are changing different types of bodies, similarly dehāntara-prāptiḥ, another body. These rascals, they do not understand the simple reasoning. Simple logic they cannot understand, still they argue, "What is the proof there is transmigration of the soul?" Here is the proof. That this child, Sarasvatī, when she is a grown-up lady she'll not act like that. But everyone will accept her, Sarasvatī, the same character (?). Her father, mother, relatives, everything is there, Sarasvatī has got another body.
Just like you had a body of a child. That body is finished, but you are existing. You can remember that you had a body of a child, you had a body of a boy, but that body of the child, body of the boy is no longer existing. You are in a different body, but you know that you are existing. That is the proof that after this body, you will have another body. This is the proof. There is no difficulty to understand. As I am still living in spite of my changing childhood body, babyhood body, boyhood body, youthhood body, so naturally it should be concluded when I give up this body... Actually, I don't give up. The body... There are two kinds of bodies.
Everyone has blazing fire within the heart. That is the proof of material existence. Nobody is without anxieties. That blazing fire means anxieties, always. Everyone has got anxieties. Even the small bird, he has got anxiety. You give the small bird some grains to eat, he'll eat it. But he's not very peacefully eating. He'll see this way, that way, "If somebody's coming to kill me?" Yes. This is material existence. Everyone... Even President Nixon, he's also full of anxieties, what to speak of others.
All over the world, these young boys and girls, because they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and because they are eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam, now they are developing their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are not Vedantist. They have not studied all the Vedas. But how they are understanding? If they are not understanding Kṛṣṇa, how they are sticking to this life? In this life everything is forbidden: no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication. Everything no. Material life finished. Why they are sticking unless they are understanding Kṛṣṇa? This is the proof. The more you stick to these principle, sevonmukhe jihvādau, engage your tongue in two business—chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda—your life will be perfect.
Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The soul being within the body means it is changing the body from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. And if the child is born dead—no more change of body. That is the proof that there is soul. Soul means the living force which is moving the body. That is soul. How you can say the animal has no soul? Everyone has soul. Even the grass has soul, because it is growing, changing body. (break) ...simple thing. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because all dirty things are within our heart.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: He says that these two types of truth are governed by two different principles: the truth of reason or the logically necessary proof, like the triangle...
Prabhupāda: This is reason, that truth is one. When we find another competitor truth, that is māyā. Truth cannot be two.
Śyāmasundara: It's impossible to conceive of the opposite of that truth. So that is what he would call logically necessary proof, proved by the law of contradiction.
Prabhupāda: My point is that he says that there are two types of truth. No. There cannot be two types of truth. That is my protest. I say there is only one truth. When you think two types of truth, then you are mistaken. Then same thing: when you think that two plus two equals five, then you are mistaken. Two plus two is always four.
Śyāmasundara: He says that although some schools of philosophy, especially in Britain, said that the mind is a blank slate at the time of birth, Leibnitz defended the fact that there are necessary truths which are implanted in the mind before birth. These are innate truths, like mathematical truths. There are certain necessary truths that a person is born with, that he can understand, being implanted in his mind, just like mathematical proofs, "Two plus two is equal to four"—that is a necessary truth with which a person is born.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That truth is devotion. Everyone wants to be devoted to somebody else. And because such devotion is misplaced, he becomes unhappy. When that devotional spirit will be rendered to the Supreme Person, then he will be happy. But the devotional spirit is there.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ: (BG 9.11) "The rascals, they think, because I am just like a human being, they think I am another human being." He is not human being; He is the Supreme Person. And when He said that "I remember," this is also another proof, that "I spoke to the sun-god millions of years ago."
Śyāmasundara: He distrusts any kind of authority and says that the only kind of things that we can know for sure are mathematical proofs and immediate sense perceptions. Like we can perceive that there is time and there is space, like that. That is the only knowledge he will admit.
Prabhupāda: And beyond the time and space?
Śyāmasundara: We can't know anything.
Prabhupāda: You cannot, but there is a process. You cannot know; that does not mean beyond the mind is relative time and perception. Just like a small insect, he takes birth in the evening, and from evening to morning, his birth, his marriage, his begetting children, everything is done, and in the morning he dies. There are many insects.
Hayagrīva: He rejects the traditional proofs of God's existence in order to clear the ground for his assertion that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. In this universe, every soul is an end in itself, and these individual souls are like citizens in a kingdom of ends. He calls it "a kingdom of ends."
Prabhupāda: So why does he use that word kingdom if there is no king? This is unreasonable. Why does he say kingdom if...
Hayagrīva: Oh, he would say there is a king.
Prabhupāda: ...he does not believe in king? He does not believe in God. The individual souls are ends themselves.
Hayagrīva: ...but that he rejects the traditional proofs of God. He says that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. His philosophy is a philosophy of ethics and morality.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if your, his morality does not accept God, and God is there—because we have already discussed that behind the nature there is God. So if his morality denies the existence of God, then where is the value of this morality? This morality can change at any time into degradation.
Śyāmasundara: You can say they existed, but show me. I don't see any proof.
Prabhupāda: You do not see the animals, the aquatics, the birds, bees, trees—everything—is existing?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. But ten million years ago, according to my excavations, there were no beasts; there were all aquatics.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Ten millions of... You cannot give a history of ten millions. It is your imagination. Where is the history of ten millions of years? You are simply imagining, that is your word. But where is historical evidence? You cannot give history more than three thousand years, and you are speaking of ten millions of years. This is all nonsense. How you can go... There is no history in the human civ... There is no history, ten millions of years.
Atreya Ṛṣi: What the theory is Prabhupāda is that, for example, if there are many, many swans living in one place, those who cannot adjust will be extinct after many, many years, and those who can adjust will live. In effect, what he tried to prove was that Kṛṣṇa's law, nature's law, is perfect. But he was missing Kṛṣṇa. In other words, what the proof is very scientific, but it is lacking.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is adding zero, without one.
Karandhara: In the trend of the scientists is that by their scientific research and their limited success which they enjoy, they are becoming more and more convinced that there is no God. They say everything is due to physical law.
Prabhupāda: No. That is the proof that they are saying there is no God, because as soon as God would withdraw the speaking power, he would not be able to speak—there is no power.
Hayagrīva: And the enormous, what he calls the enormous influence of authority on the human mind. "Authority is the evidence on which the mass of mankind believe everything which they are said to know except facts of which their own senses have taken cognizance. It is the evidence on which even the wisest receive all those truths of science or facts in history or in life of which they have not personally examined the proofs. Whatever is thus certified to them by authority, they believe with a fullness of assurance which they do not accord even to the evidence of their senses when the general opinion of mankind stands in opposition to it."
Prabhupāda: Authority, that is authority. You can not defy it or you can not deny it. That is authority. We are presenting our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on this principle, that you should carry out the orders of the authority, and Kṛṣṇa or God is the Supreme authority. Whatever He is speaking, instructing to the human society, they must accept it without any wrong interpretation.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, all this display of this universe or anything creation, cosmic manifestations, this is designed by the Supreme, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva. Multi-energies. Just like this flower. We have got experience that if you paint a flower, it requires so much experience to handle the brush and the colors. So similarly, this is certainly proof of experience, but His energy is acting so nicely, we see that the flower is coming automatically. And the same example I have given so many times, that nowadays in electronics, just like this, so many mechanical arrangement is within there.
Śyāmasundara: So it is better to believe, even though one doesn't know for sure. It is better to believe because it gives one more chance of discovering the truth. He says that we have the right to believe in God, even in the absence of absolute proof. Even though there is no absolute proof, he says, of the existence of God, still we have the right to believe in God because this helps us to get closer to the truth. It gives us a better chance.
Prabhupāda: That means he accepts God is truth and that He's existing. Does he say like that or not?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says there is no absolute proof, but...
Prabhupāda: But that is proof.
Prabhupāda: So practical benefit... Suppose you are getting some warmth, so you believe there must be some fire. So I believe. Unless there is fire, how there is warmth?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. So the belief itself is the proof.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing about James as distinct from many other philosophers is that he felt the personal experience of God.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got personal experience of God.
Hayagrīva: He says that the natural existence often proves itself to be basically unhappy. "With such relations between religion and happiness, it is perhaps not surprising that men come to regard the happiness which a religious belief affords as a proof of its truth. If a creed makes a man feel happy he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true. Such, rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men."
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are actually in clear conception of God, and if you have decided to obey God and love Him, that is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). This process of acting in obedience to the order of God, as we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement...
Hayagrīva: He says, "If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively toward you, and in that sense one may say that the world has not got a personal God in spite of all the proofs. But while dons and parsons," that is priests, "drivel on," talk on, "about the millions of truths about God's personality, the truth is that there are no longer the men living who could bear the pressure and weight of having a personal God." Because he feels that a personal God would make demands on man, and so therefore men reject the idea of a personal God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Personal God means He is demanding, as Kṛṣṇa is demanding, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me, or offer Me worship, offer Me obeisances, and become My devotee. And give up all other engagement. Simply be engaged in My service." This is the demand of God, and if we carry out His demand, then we are perfect. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9).
Prabhupāda: That is also not proof. As soon as he gets a body, his thing is settled up. Just like you have got this body—white body. You cannot become black body. Or a man who has got black body, he cannot become white man. This is wrong philosophy. How you can settle up? Because he is considering the of body, he is considering the existence means the manufacture of the body from the womb of mother up to the destruction of the body. So this body, as it is made, there are different types of body. So that cannot be changed.
Prabhupāda: That is..., the mathematics is required for that purpose. You have got two rupees, I have got two rupees; when combined together it becomes four rupees. That is mathematics. This is practical proof. Why does he say that there is no practical use? And philosopher, to become philosopher is not to become a nonsense. But because he theorizes something nonsensical, he's become a philosopher—that is not philosophy. This mathematical truth is practically true.
Prabhupāda: That is the proof. Because the soul takes shelter into the womb of the mother, the father injects the soul—that is the statement of the śāstras—in the womb of the mother, and the mother gives shelter. So the body develops from the womb of the mother. There is conception, pregnancy. That is the proof.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the essence of an entity is its intelligible nature, or that one can have ideas. This is proof that we are more than existence, that we are also essence.
Prabhupāda: No. This existence is temporary. Just like this, I have got this coat. This is also existence, but I may change it next time, but I am the essence. I am permanent. I am changing.
Prabhupāda: So any, anything, whatever you may be, you cannot become perfect without hearing from another perfect. This is nonsense, that you go on speculating and the proof will come. This is nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: Behind hearing one sound, the proof of that understanding of sound in general is the sky, like that. In an elective process, this is a process for understanding these things.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, his process is mental speculation.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that in things there is a self-evident truth. In everything there is something self-evident that makes it true. Is that not possible?
Prabhupāda: That self-evidence is certain (indistinct). Just like this leaf, that you see the greenness of the leaf, but that is not all. If you actually want to study that leaf, simply the superficial vision of the leaf as green is not all.
Hayagrīva: He writes, "The theologians are different from the philosophers in this respect at any rate. At least they are sure that God exists, even though they make contradictory statements about Him. God's existence does not depend on our proofs. I understood that God was, for me at least, one of the most certain and immediate of experiences."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is transcendental conviction, and it is very easy to understand that God is there. I do not know God, that is another thing. I will have to learn it. But God is there. There is no doubt about it. Any sane man can understand. You cannot say there is no God, because you are under control. So who is that controller? The supreme controller is God.
Prabhupāda: Ah, labhate paurva-dehikam. That is everything, spiritual and material. Materially also we find sometime when one person is very extraordinary individual. In the class some student picks up very quickly, some student cannot understand. So this is continuation. One is intelligent means he has got some previous revival of his consciousness. So in this way it is going on. That is the proof, immortality of the soul. Otherwise why? Paurva-dehikam, previous birth. This is the proof.
Śyāmasundara: So the proof that one accepts for something which is beyond our sense is not necessarily scientific?
Prabhupāda: Not at all. What to speak of scientific, it is completely ignorant. There is no question of science. It is simply darkness.
Śyāmasundara: No. I mean the proof..., if one accepts the proof of the guru's authority...
Prabhupāda: That is the proof. He gives there. Guru—the next line says who is guru: śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam. He has heard the truth from the paramparā system, and the result of his hearing-he's firmly convinced and fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one can finally see that one is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he answers all questions on the authority of śāstra, he's guru. This is the proof of it(?). Just like we, whenever we say something, we immediately support it by quoting from Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata, Vedas. This is called knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No. This knowledge is perfect because our proof is Vedas. In the Vedas it is stated that bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). In the Vedas it is stated that anything material, by its birth, its growth, its staying, its by-product, its dwindling, and then vanish. This is the nature of everything material. That we get from the Vedas, that everything which is born is sure to die.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. That we have already discussed, that if evolution of bodies, then just like this Darwin says that some monkeys, eh? So where is the direct proof that a monkey body is changing to a human body? We say that there are different types of bodies always, just like different types of apartment. But the living entity, the soul, is transferring from one apartment to another just like we change.
Prabhupāda: But proof to him. But there is proof, what is really good and what is really bad. Has he given any practical example, that "This is scientifically good" and that "this is scientifically bad"?
Śyāmasundara: He says, "What is good is that which is desired," that desirable.
Prabhupāda: But anyone can desire anything. (laughter) So it is nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: Just like in Bertrand Russell's own case, they're going to drop the bomb on someone. Now some people say it's good—they should drop the bomb to test it. Some people, like he, say, "No, it's bad." So who is to decide? There's no scientific proof.
Prabhupāda: No. Proof, he does not know. Under whose order to drop bombs, bombs should be dropped, under whose order the bombs should not be dropped? There is authority, but he does not know. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna hesitated to fight, "No, I shall..., I shall not drop the bomb." But when he was convinced, after studying Bhagavad-gītā, that "I have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa," so Kṛṣṇa says, "Drop the bomb," you drop—that is good.
Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that the proof is if it works socially, if it has a social effect.
Prabhupāda: That I am coming to. Suppose... Just like a living man and a dead man. So what is the scientific statement about this dead man? What do they say?
Śyāmasundara: Well, that he's just a lump of chemicals.
Prabhupāda: All right. Then if you are scientist, then bring that chemical and fulfill it. That is experiment. If that experiment is not possible, then what is the use of your scientific statement, "It is loss of chemicals"?
Śyāmasundara: The idea is that the theories are not practical unless they are tested socially, unless there is social benefit.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of social. You say that this body is dead because some chemicals are wanting. So you should make experiment that such chemicals be replaced and the body may come out again in life. Then your scientific statement is... Otherwise, it is most unscientific.
Śyāmasundara: Well, he's convinced that that is the truth. So he...
Prabhupāda: He is convinced, but where is the proof that his leadership should be accepted?
Śyāmasundara: That it works socially. That people are becoming happy under this philosophy.
Prabhupāda: But shall not be happy. If I am given under the control of Communist government, I shall not be happy. We were there for a week in Moscow. We were not at all happy. That boy who came to us, he is not happy. So where is your perfection? You make everyone happy; then it is all right. If you think that "I am happy, my brother is happy. That's all right. Let others go to hell," that is another thing.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. How life develops from matter? Where is the, evidence? Why do they not manufacture life from matter in the laboratory? It is simply a statement. It has no value. Because you cannot produce living force from matter. Matter is different and living force, soul, is different. (In) one sense, of course, they are the energy of God, but still, categorically, they are different. So far these materialists are concerned, where is the proof that from matter, life has developed? So why they do not manufacture life in the laboratory? Even an ant you cannot manufacture. You have got all the chemicals. Why don't you manufacture life? So this theory cannot be accepted.
Prabhupāda: So it may..., it can be taken figuratively, that when one forgets his position, that is a kind of death also. One forgets himself. But actually soul is eternal, and what Augustine says as spiritual death, that is his forgetfulness. Just like in unconsciousness one forgets his identity, but if he is dead then he cannot revive consciousness. Similarly, it is little difficult for the bodily concept of life persons, but there are many proofs and understanding that soul is eternal. He, of course, until he gets his freedom from this material existence, he is spiritually dead.
Hayagrīva: And that he needs only meet with some stimulus in order for these tendencies to be manifest?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when the, a dog, cat, is born it has no eyes, and it searches out the nipples of the mother. So although his eyes are all closed—you have seen the dogs—but because in his previous life as dog he had the experience where to find out the food, so even though it cannot see, it traces out where is the food. That is past experience and that is the proof of the continuation of the soul eternally. Just like I am living in this room and, say, for ten years I am absent from this room, but after ten years when I come here, immediately I remember where is the toilet, where is my sitting place, everything.
Hayagrīva: Alexander despairs of the speculative method as a means for connecting with God, and he also feels that proofs of God's existence in nature are nonexistence, are nonexistent. If such a God is to be identified with the object of worship, that is to say we shouldn't worship God in nature. But how can God be known? For him God can be known by experience. Nor can we prove the existence of God, whether worshipable or not, except on the basis of experience.
Prabhupāda: This is natural. This is just like the other day I was saying that on the Hawaii Island we are standing, we know that the proprietor, the government, is there. So just after few yards there is the sea. Then we can conjecture: if the land has the proprietor, the sea has also proprietor. We have not seen who is the proprietor of the land, or the governor of the land. Similarly, there is a governor, proprietor, of the sea and the sky, but we have not seen. That does not mean there is no proprietor.
Prabhupāda: That is experimented in the Bhagavad-gītā for men like Alexander and company. Arjuna requested that Kṛṣṇa to show His universal form, because he knew that "I am accepting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme, but there are many persons with poor fund of knowledge, they may not accept." Therefore he requested Kṛṣṇa to show him the universal form. That He showed, so that there is another proof for person like Mr. Alexander and company.
| Page Title: | Proof (Lectures) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Gopinath |
| Created: | 23 of May, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=172, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 172 |