Prabhupāda: I mean to say, in relationship with the sun, the planet, the planet in the front side there is light. In the backside there is darkness. But the darkness is the effect of the light. Where the light is absent there is darkness.
Dr. Ware: Only to an observer. If there's no observer there, there's no difference between light and dark.
Prabhupāda: No, this is the actual position. Just like this is sun, but this side is light, this side is darkness. So light and darkness, two opposite elements. But it is due to the same cause. Absence of light is darkness, and presence of light is light.
Dr. Ware: Or I say there are some things that have those dichotomies and others don't.
Prabhupāda: So actually the cause is one, but in different position, one side is light, one side is darkness. Therefore the cause cannot be different. The cause is one. But under different position it appears, "This is light," "This is darkness." So bad, which you consider bad, that is also caused by the Supreme Cause. In the Supreme there is no good or bad. Everything is absolute. Just like the sun is always light, but, in relationship with sun, the planets, one side is dark, one side is light. So black means that is also caused by the light, absence of light—that is black, dark.
Dr. Ware: With respect, it's not caused by the light. It's the absence of light.
Prabhupāda: Absence, that I'm saying. It is also, indirectly, the cause is the light.
Dr. Ware: No, because your illustration you gave of the light of the sun falling on one side and making that light and the other side dark, but you can also have a body which is in the complete absence of any light anyway, so there won't be any differentiation.
Prabhupāda: No. There is light. The light is now visible. Light is there. Just like we say that our relationship with God is there. One is conscious; another is unconscious. Otherwise, God consciousness is there. Therefore any process that awakens that consciousness, that is perfect process. The consciousness is there. That is stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, an authorized book.
Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). This God consciousness is not something artificial. The God consciousness is there. Just like these European boys and girls, they're now devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Not that artificially we have imposed this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness was there. By . . . under certain process of treatment that has been awakened.
Dr. Ware: That's why I think it's better to accept that as it is, rather than make analogies, which are dangerous.
Prabhupāda: I may make analogy or not analogy, but the thing is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but it is covered. As soon as its covering is taken away—it is uncovered—the original position comes out.
Śyāmasundara: I believe he made one observation which is rather in the British tradition, I believe, where he said that if there was no observer, then there would be no such thing as light and darkness.
Dr. Ware: Yes, light and dark are subjective reactions. Really, the scientists would say there are wave lengths of a certain type in one part of the universe and in the other they're absent. But until you have an observer, you can't notice that.
Mensa Member: But the planet would still be there . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Ware: Well, Samuel Johnson quite rightly refuted that by taking . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Actually, there is no darkness. Take it sun as, it is whole. There is no darkness and everything is in sunshine. All the planets, they are rotating in sunshine. So under certain condition, one part is becoming dark, another part is light. But actually the whole universe is full with sunshine. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). That is the exact definition given in Sanskrit: everything is light, brahma.
Mensa Member: That's another postulate.
Dr. Ware: You can build any theory according to the number of postulates you're willing to accept which cannot be analyzed, including the basis of science, that the atom, as originally thought of by Theocritus and others, is this thing that you cannot go beyond and cap down . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying with your philosophy or your theology that you go down until you can find nothing, except that you say that causa causam, and then you build back again from that. But that's what I was saying earlier on: the . . . (indistinct) . . . is very close to the Unitarian position in Christianity.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Ware: Far more acceptable to every type of Christian than any of the specific creeds or sects, you know, the Church of England, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, every other form of prophecy. And you have that greater universality . . . (indistinct) . . . and you've got Tibetans who will accept your basis in the same way as a Westerner could.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dr. Ware: A Tibetan could accept your position.
Prabhupāda: Tiberian? Tibetians? What is their philosophy?
Dr. Ware: You've heard of the Dalai Lama?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What does he say?
Dr. Ware: Well, his position would be the same as yours, wouldn't it? In religion?
Mensa Member: You mean the Tibetan Buddhist attitude towards the Godhead is the same as the Kṛṣṇas?
Dr. Ware: Yes. They have that same basis.
Prabhupāda: But so far we know, that Buddhists, they do not believe in God, existence of God.