Prabhupāda: Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brahmin who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become . . . in this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?
Hari-śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns?
Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war. And such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is . . . and this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: if you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on, because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be . . . this is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. But it is a fact.
Hari-śauri: Yes because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇa's time. Just like Jarāsandha was, he had all the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya, even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's . . . no one is . . .
Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's . . .
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America: the blacks were slaves; they were under control. And since we have given them equal rights, they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-śauri: If that's done, then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education; be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up, He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not . . . he did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarūpa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the . . . that is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs all so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.
Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brahmin I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So we are Kṛṣṇa . . . preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarūpa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds—(chuckles) these rascals, they are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.