Prabhupāda: You are always criminal. For example, if you do not know how to drive, "keep to the right," if you drive to the left, you may think, "Oh, it is after all driving. What does it matter, right or left?" But no. As soon as you drive left, you become criminal. Similarly, because we do not know our relationship with God, therefore we are acting wrongly, and therefore, under the laws of God, we are becoming more and more criminal and our problems are increasing. Therefore, in spite of advancement of education, science, civilization, a nice dress, car, and everything, nobody trusts nobody. You see? Everywhere you go, a gentleman's house, oh, "Beware of the dog," "No trespasser allowed." Always suspicious. An individual person is suspicious of another individual person. A nation is suspicious of another nation. A community is suspicious of another community. So how can you have peace and prosperity? Suspiciousness means animal, animalistic. A dog is suspicious of another dog. As soon as it finds another dog, immediately begins to bark." Row! Row! Row!" So is that human civilization? So what is the mistake of the human civilization? The mistake of the human civilization is that they have forgotten the relationship with God. So here is the scientific statement of our relationship with God.
Nation (Conv. 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: In India, due to her long subjugation by the foreigners, practically the so-called educated persons, they have lost their original culture. Rather, those who are not so-called educated, following the traditional rules and regulations, they are more Kṛṣṇa conscious. And the educated circle, they are thinking that this religious temperament is the cause of India's economic fall-down. But actually, that is not the fact. So not only India, in other countries also they are trying to imitate the economic situation or economic development of other countries, especially of America, but they do not find that in America, although the boys and girls, the younger generation, they are born of rich family, rich nation, they are still confused, and they are also hankering after something better. So the policy followed by India now, that is, to imitate the Western way of life, is not very happy mood. This means they have lost their original culture. And so far Western countries are concerned, I think they have sufficient arrangement for material comforts. Now they can very easily take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement because they have no disturbance for material hankering. And I think it is the time for them to accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to make them perfectly well.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will pay nice money to hear us?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (reading letter:) "This can be made extensive by your team of followers from America arriving in..." They are greater. So Indian and American combined kīrtana, oh, it will be very nice. Big kīrtana, and every city will receive. And we shall preach that "Here is the common platform for everyone. There is no distinction of nation or religion or anything. Come to the platform." So the Mohammedans also will join. The government will appreciate that here is something secular, real secular; at the same time, God is there. Actually, it is that. All religious people, so-called religious, come here. And religion means this, to love, I mean to say, develop love of God. That is religion. What is this formularies? Simply formula that "I keep this, I copy that." That is not religion, simply by dressing in different way or sitting in a different way. Where is your understanding? You have no understanding of God. You simply formally attend some church or mosque or temple for some material benefit or for some, make some show, but where is your love of God? That is the test of religion, Bhāgavata says. A religious person means he has got complete love of God. Then he is religious. All right. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply wasting time. Bhāgavata says, without developing this love of Godhead, if somebody is engaged in religious ritualistic performance, he's simply wasting his time. Śrama... That particular word is used, śrama eva hi kevalam. Śrama means labor. Eva. Certainly, it is simply laboring. What is called? Labor of love? What is called?
Satsvarūpa: But still... I've already done that. I've made him, but practically I'm still managing anyway. And I made Murāri manager, but still I'm... I don't spend much time in editing. People are always coming, and I'm running all over the place. I don't edit at all. It makes me sad. I don't...
Prabhupāda: No, no. They must give relief to you. You can give them instruction, but the actual execution should be done... Pradyumna is there. He can also do. But anyone who is expert in management, he should be... Temple management should not be done directly by you. You can give him policy that "You do like this." That's all. Because you have got so many other things to do. Yes. So you create. If there is no expert manager, you create some manager. That is most important thing, to create. To become... (laughs) In our college there was one Mr. Kidd, professor of economics. He was always chastising us. We were student; he was our professor. "Oh, you cannot have independence. You cannot manage it. You cannot manage. You can work just like ass, but if some asses are given under you, you cannot work." He was talking like that. "So don't cry for independence. You are not yet nation." He was talking like that. So actually his experience was nice, that since the Britishers have gone away, the management of Indian government is not nice. They cannot manage. So he was experienced. He told. I sometimes remember that Professor Kidd told me like that. (laughs) So we have to create nice administrator. That is another function, you see? Every department, we shall create assistant, assistant. So that in case he is ill or he is sick, he cannot work, somebody must work for him.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You are Maharastrian.
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Maharastrians, they are fighting nation.
Haṁsadūta: Telephone?
Prabhupāda: Telephone? Telephone?
Guest (1): Telephone, no, I haven't got.
Prabhupāda: Maharastrian spirit and Bengali spirit, almost...
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pāpi tāpi yata chilo harināme uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for māyā, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you.
Śyāmasundara: So they are not spoiled.
Prabhupāda: No. And the psychology is the girl, after first menstruation, she enjoys sex life with a boy, she will never forget that boy. Her love for that boy is fixed up for good. This is woman's psychology. And she is allowed to have many, oh, she will never be chaste woman. These are the psychology. So these rascals, Westerners, they do not know and they are becoming philosopher, scientist, and politician, and spoiling the whole world. They can be saved only by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no other way. Otherwise they will lick up their skyscraper building and everything will go to hell. We have seen in New York, so many houses fall down. In New York. Yes. So many. Simply garbage. I have studied. Simply full of garbage. Nobody is going to take care. And the boys and girls loitering in the street as hippies. This is a very, very, bad sign. You see? No home, home neglected, no regular life. The whole nation will be spoiled. It is already spoiled. The poison is already there. Fire. Now it is increasing. Just like you set fire, it increases. So that fire is already there.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They say, "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much..." That theory is coming in communist country. That an old man, grandfather, is suffering. Better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation they eat, make a festival, by killing great-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes.
Śyāmasundara: They eat them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh?
Pañcadraviḍa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed.
Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that "Instead of suffering, just kill him."
Prabhupāda: Because the United States, they are our best customer. A businessman goes to a place... Just like you have come here. Why you have come here? Wherever there is best possibility of doing your business, there you must go. I went to United States because I know these people are not poverty-stricken. And our Indian people, they are now, they have been trained to think like that—they are poverty-stricken. Actually, they are not poverty-stricken, but the leaders have educated them that, "You are all poverty-stricken." This is India's position. So far I knew that it would not be successful in India. The government will not help. The public is educated in a different way. They are after technology. So and "familiarity breeds contempt." They say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? It is known to us since a long time. What effect it will have?" Many Indian students in foreign countries, they say, "Swamiji, what will this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement benefit us? We want technology." So that is the mentality of the Indians at the present moment. They have lost everything and therefore they are beggars. They have lost their own culture and therefore they are beggars. So I thought it wise that I shall go to a country where there is no poverty. They will learn. They have enough. For material enjoyment, they have got enough. The material enjoyment means money and woman. That is, in America, it is lying on the street. As much as you like, you can take. But they are disgusted with this material enjoyment. Therefore they are coming as hippies. They are coming from very rich family. Their fathers, their grandfathers, are very rich. At least they belong to the richest nation. But they are not satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Well, intermarriage, that has introduced according to the social system. But so far we are concerned, we are allowing intermarriage from any country, any... If he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, we help him marry. There are so many intermarriages in our society. So try to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it so that there will be oneness—one God, one scripture, one nation, one religion—according to Vedic injunction. Not that we are manufacturing something. That is the Vedic injunction.
Prabhupāda: That, not only in India. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not meant for India or America. Of course, I am deputed by my Guru Mahārāja to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the Western world. That is his grace. He wanted that Western people, who are intelligent, they should learn what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So my mission is for the Western country, but it is not meant for any particular country, nation. It is meant for every living entity. Now, there are many unfortunate living entities and there are many fortunate living entities. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in America or Western country, only the fortunate persons they are coming. But if few of them come and understand, then by their example and behavior, the whole population will be benefited. It is not expected that cent percent population will be able to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but by the examples of the few, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). Just like you'll find in our temple it is always crowded to the fullest extent. We require a more spacious home. But not all of them our initiated students. Out of them say ten percent may be our initiated students. But still people are coming to see. They are following.
John Nordheimer: They reject what they see.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are coming from respectable fathers, from a respectable nation. Why are they rejecting this mode of civilization?
John Nordheimer: They don't really find it respectable.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone has his choice. That you have to accept. Why do you forget it? God has given us everything, and now it is up to us to make our choice. So God is good, and if we follow His instructions, we become good.
John Nordheimer: What problems do you have in making His word, His instructions reach the ears of everyone in the world?
Prabhupāda: We are not preaching our own words; we are preaching God's words. Now it is up to you to make your choice. God says to give up all engagements and just surrender unto Him.
Prabhupāda: So there is some defect, and here is a chance to rectify that defect. Here is a chance. I can argue with any scientist, any philosopher, that this is the only remedy to save people from frustration. This is the only remedy. Why it should go unnoticed by your country, such a great, who are willing to help others, willing to help. You started the United Nations in your country for that. Let us do something tangible, scientific, that people will be happy.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you the opportunity, you Americans. Now you are taking Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will be the most opulent nation of the world. Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa both. You have got Lakṣmī, but if you take Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī will be permanent. Lakṣmī will not go. And if you reject Nārāyaṇa, then Lakṣmī will stay for some time. That is Cañcalā. Her name is Cañcalā. The British empire has failed, the Roman Empire has failed, the so many empires, the Mogul empire has failed, because they wanted Lakṣmī, not Nārāyaṇa. If you take Nārāyaṇa, your Lakṣmī will stay. Just try to convince your countrymen, just like President Nixon. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that I was dictated to go to America, because Kṛṣṇa wants that you should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa wants. So you have taken. Now spread. It will be grand success. And there are so many candidates, very nice. All right, go on, take... (end)
Prabhupāda: Honeydew, yes. So I immediately remember your Keśi-ghāṭa karmuj, first class. So sweet, little greenish. But you can get all the year round. Actually America is favored. Therefore, I repeatedly say that you Americans, you are graced by God, you simply take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will become first-class nation. And actually they are taking more than other countries. (break)
Devotee (3): India will become Communist also?
Prabhupāda: It has already begun. India will become Communist. What do you think?
Indian man: It's difficult to predict. I don't think so soon.
Gurudāsa: One life member very dramatically the other day said it is not around the corner...
Prabhupāda: Especially in Bengal they have become Communist.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So why do they not back this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a first-class nation.
Devotee (3): Yes, but they don't know.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) them. Take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy. Your nationality will be first-class. (break) ...your nation, America. If they take it, everyone will take it. (break) Gambling.
Devotee (3): Probably gambling, lottery. (break) That Japanese man who you asked to come today, he reads Mandarin, Chinese. I gave him our Mandarin, Chinese Back to Godhead to read yesterday.
Prabhupāda: Mandarin?
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: How you are Mandarin?
Devotee (3): Chinese, from Hong Kong.
Prabhupāda: This sky(?), they are making like Calcutta Esplanade. (indistinct) Victoria Memorial, you don't remember?
Devotee (2): I've only been three days (indistinct) Śrīla Prabhupāda, before we left India.
Prabhupāda: Oh. You were mostly in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: Nowadays gradually, everyone is giving up cap. First of all, only the Bengalis were the capless nation. Now gradually, it has spread all over the world. Nobody uses hats or cap.
Guest (1): We like the cover cap.
Guest (2): You don't shave?
Guest (1): You don't shave more (indistinct) only shaving clean shave only (indistinct)
Devotee: You are asking me?
Guest (1): Yes.
Devotee: Yes. About every two weeks.
Guest (1): Every two weeks. What mean this symbol?
Prabhupāda: Flag. It is flag.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was my intimate friend. So in their house, old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich man. So, he informed me that "One nice sannyāsī came to our house," and he was invited, "in Ultadanga there is Gauḍīya Maṭha, so he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic (?), "I know all these sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me, "Oh, why not come? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in that Ultadanga building, and that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof. There was small house (indistinct) room, and we were welcome, because they thought Naren Mullik was very rich man and he has contributed some money. So, we went to see Prabhupāda, offered our obeisances. So immediately he said that "You are all educated young men, why don't you preach Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message throughout the whole world?" So I replied him, "Sir, we are dependent nation, who will hear our message? We can talk all these things after we get independence," because I was politically-minded at that time.
Prabhupāda: I am always (indistinct) to this, my American disciples that you are so much, I mean to say, taken care by God (?), this is... Your position is very good. Now you take to Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, and you become a perfect nation. That I preach always. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you have got everything. All material opulence. Now make it plus Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be very nice. Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. So, these boys are trying, very sincerely and seriously, and I hope, even I do not live many more years, they will carry out this order.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) coming down (indistinct) should be (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: And our (indistinct) Mahārāja...
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Prabhupāda said, Bhaktivinoda (Bengali).
Prabhupāda: That he was (indistinct). This is not (indistinct). This is not (indistinct).
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) we are also counted within that...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: To justify that exploitation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) They would not allow anyone to enter India to make trade. And that is the cause of two big world wars. This is a... Real cause is India. Because the Germans, they were very intelligent. They were intelligent nation. They wanted to trade with India. So Britishers will not allow them. Actually, Britishers were selling goods, purchasing from Germany and Japan, And when German would go to trade, they will enhance the custom duty very, very large amount. So that was the grudge of the German nation. Two times, they fought with that "Finish these Britishers-shop-keeper's nation." Yes. Hitler, Hitler was... Hitler or the Emperor Wilhelm, some of them, one of them, was calling the Britishers: "shop-keeper's nation."
Prabhupāda: Shop-keeper's nation.
Brahmānanda: A nation of shop-keepers only.
Prabhupāda: That's right. Why the shop-keeper's nation should predominate all over the world? Kill them. That is their (indistinct). And actually it is the German people who killed Britishers, British lion. Apart, after the Second War...
Brahmānanda: British was finished.
Prabhupāda: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history.
Prabhupāda: Where is Jawaharlal Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi? They worked so hard for nation. Now he's dead and gone. Now where he is? Neither the nation knows. Whether he has now... Some astrologer told that he has become a dog in Sweden.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has become a dog...?
Prabhupāda: Dog.
Brahmānanda: Nehru.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is possibility. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Change of body. So if... According to laws of nature, you have to change your body. You cannot dictate the laws of nature that: "Give me this body. Give me again American body." That is not possible. When you are dead, you have to accept another body. It may be cat's body, dog's body. It doesn't matter. You cannot dictate nature that: "Give me a body like this."
Prabhupāda: You approach the United Nations also. What they are doing? Simply wasting money. What is their aim and object, United Nations?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Peaceful co-existence, cooperation among different nations.
Prabhupāda: So what they have done so far?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nothing.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Brahmānanda: Many speeches.
Prabhupāda: Peaceful co-existence is this, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like there are different nations. They are already existing. So jāti means that. Jāti means born of a particular species. That is jāti. Jīva-jātiṣu. Ṣu, plural number. So many jīva-jātiṣu. He's simply Bhramadbhiḥ. Just like I am traveling, sometimes America, some Australia, sometimes... But they are already there. I am going sometimes in America, sometimes Australia, sometimes Africa, but they are already there. I am the man; I am traveling. Not that because I have to come to America, I create America. This is nonsense. And there are many countries I have not gone there. Does it mean that they are not existing? They have no even human reason, these rascal scientists. The common sense reason. And Bhagavad-gītā clearly says they are already existing. Wherever you like, you can go. You can go even up to the kingdom of God if you so desire. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Umāpati: The same scientists will point to India and say, "Look at all the dying and starving people over there."
Prabhupāda: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?
Umāpati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are...
Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir?
Umāpati: Well, I am not doing this.
Prabhupāda: No no, you are your men. Those who are not Indian.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you try to pour water to each leaf of the tree, it will be simply waste of time. Similarly, God is the root of everything. Our Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Absolute Truth, wherefrom everything has come. So if we love the root, God, then we can love others. Otherwise not possible. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. They have tried. The so-called humanitarian work they have tried. Unity and fraternity and so on, big, big words. But it has not come to... Because there is no love of Godhead, it has failed. Even the United Nations. Central point is missing. So our Vedic injunction is that sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: (SB 1.2.6) "That system of religion is perfect which teaches how to love God." It doesn't matter, Christian religion, Hindu religion, Mohammedan religion, it doesn't matter. But God minus, this is the present position. Everyone wants to make minus God everything. This is going on. They have no clear idea. If I want to love you, I must have a clear idea of you. On vague idea, I cannot love. But they have no clear idea what is God. So how they can love God? And because they have failed to love God, all the so-called love, humanitarian, philanthropic works and, you know, they have become useless.
Prabhupāda: So what was the connection with liberation?
Guest: Ne. Because at that time there's some proud of nation and some proud of culture. He wanted to...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule.
Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...
Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Buddhist Monk (1): And I told them directly and indirectly, "Your systems, which have transplanted the well, type systems, especially of India, has created a catastrophe. We have made mistakes in the past. But we profited by them, and we want a successful educational system that taught the individual how to give himself peace within himself, mentally and physically. Within his family, within his relations society, nation and the world. And today that system has been overtaken by this materialistic system. One calls himself materialist directly. Another, camouflage, just under the name of religion. That's the only difference I know of in these two systems in the West. That's the only difference." And I told them. I said, "We want peace. Śānti, śānti, śānti. And we know the danger of playing with the fireball of materialism, which is throwing its tentacles into every part of society: divorces, nervous cases, mental cases, cancers, suicides, family life is breaking. And it reminds me of Gibbon's writing about the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. And all those symptoms are there in this so-called progressive, civilized culture." I used the word "so-called." And this mind...
Prabhupāda: But what remedy you have suggested?
Buddhist Monk (1): Reduction of greed, and substitution of liberality. There is no other remedy.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). And this is the only opportunity of awakening our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if we do not give that opportunity to the human beings from the childhood, it is a jealous... Jealousy means that you have got some opportunity, but if I do not allow you to take that opportunity, this is called jealous. So every human being has got the potency of awakening his God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in this human form of body. So if we do not give that opportunity, it is jealousy. Therefore students must be educated, and if you're writing such nice book, I think you will get, give a great service to your nation and to the human society in England. Because durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma, this human form of life... Unfortunately, people do not understand what is the distinction between this human form of life and animal form of life. That is another...
David Lawrence: They offer nothing, is it, in the material world.
Prabhupāda: So you give... Yes. That is the... The only difference is that in human form of life you can awaken your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the animal form... Here we are sitting with all human form of life, gentlemen, civilized men. I cannot call cats and dogs and sit here, and to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. Therefore this opportunity should be given. This opportunity should be given. And especially, you are English nation, recognized, great nation, respectful, you are respected... Especially in India, we have got very good respect for English nation. We had connection for so many years. And the politicians, they spoiled. Otherwise, the, I, we liked the British Empire, means unity of the human being all over the world. That can be revived again. That can be revived again. If you come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, your Queen comes to that,... There is process. There is process. You can revive your British Empire. It is not story. If you people take little advice from me, I can help you. Yes. You are intelligent nation. So kindly do this service to the students and awaken their dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be a great service. And we are meant for helping you all. So you can inquire. You are at liberty to come at any time and inquire.
Prabhupāda: He must realize that he's not this body. He is different from body. But I am encaged now in this body under certain condition. So at least this... This is called jñāna. Jñāna. So long one is in the bodily concept of life, he is affected with so many things. So many things. So this bhakti-yoga begins when one is purified from the bodily concept of life. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Now, these boys, they are coming from different nations. But they never think that one is Englishman, another is American, another is Indian, another is African. No, we don't think like that.
David Lawrence: No.
Prabhupāda: At least, we have surpassed that stage. If we have not advanced in any other way, (laughter) at least we have advanced in this respect. We don't consider on the bodily concept of life. What do you think?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is our qualification. Yes.
David Lawrence: Unfortunately, as we find, the youngsters that, certainly that I teach, have got such materialistic views of their...
Prabhupāda: If you keep the students as English boys or American boys, then it will be difficult. Then the, the cultural question will come up.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...talked with many gentleman, lawyer. That Goldsmith, he was against war, but when I asked him, "Whether you are meat-eaters, killing animals?", "Yes, that is our food." So if the poor animals can become your food, the big nation can say, "The small nation is my food. I can kill them. We can kill them." Everyone can say. And that is happening like, "Might is right."
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: Goldsmith? He's a lawyer or something in Los Angeles?
Prabhupāda: Hm, hm, hm. (Yes) No, not Los Angeles. New York.
Revatīnandana: Oh, this Gold, Martin... Some, his name was, in Los Angeles, Gold, Martin Gold.
Sir Alistair Hardy: (Break) ...Tagore thought of in India today. I've always admired Rabindranath Tagore's very much, his poetic writings. Do people in India think much of him today?
Prabhupāda: What about that?
Revatīnandana: Rabindranath Tagore.
Prabhupāda: This material world is based on jealousy. And spiritual world is based on friendship. That is the difference. So the, these materialistic persons, United Nations, League of Nations, they are trying to unite, but they, at heart, there is jealousy. So they can never become united. This is only bogus farce.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: What do you think?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They cannot be united because at heart there is jealousy. They go to the United Nations assembly. So one man is speaking with jealousy for the other. The other man is speaking (laughs) with jealous... So how they can be united? It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: ...New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.
Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas.
Dr. Inger: I know. But so... If one can put it that way, then somebody has to submit that we are going to celebrate the three thousand anniversary, or four thousand anniversary, and... But no such step has been taken. But such an idea can be proposed.
Prabhupāda: No, suppose the United Nations is the organization of the whole human society, so if I ask the United Nations, as an organization that: "What is the purpose of this cosmic manifestation?" That is a fact. There is a cosmic manifestation. The scientists, they are also trying to understand. So there are so many scientists, philosophers, what is their answer? Suppose I am inquisitive to know something. So where shall I inquire?
Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all.
- dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ puṁsāṁ
- viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
- notpādayed ratiṁ yadi
- śrama eva hi kevalam
- (SB 1.2.8)
Śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time. From practical point of view, they're unable to do anything. Because the original idea was to stop war. But the war is going on, fighting is going on. They could not stop it. And United Nations... But actually they are becoming disunited more and more. Pakistan was not there. You know very well. Lahore was your country. Now it is other's country. So in this way, there cannot be any solution. There cannot be any solution. We must know the central point. The central point is Kṛṣṇa. We get from... I'm not manufacturing these ideas. Bhagavad-gita is recognized book.
Prabhupāda: Creator. So why you are claiming other's property as "my own"? "This is my country. This is my country." And we are so rascal and we are making United Nation.
Dr. Inger: It doesn't belong to anyone.
Prabhupāda: It doesn't belong to anyone. And these rascals are claiming, "This is my. This is my, this is my flag. This is..." Therefore they are all cheaters. And they are combining and trying to cheat other that "How much I can cheat you." "I am American. How much I can cheat you, Russian." Russian thinking, "Yes, I am also cheater. How much I can cheat you." This is going on, cheaters and cheated. And they are wasting their time. Is that civilization, to become cheater and cheated and waste our time in some so-called conferences? Is that civilization, do you think?
Dr. Inger: No. Not at all, but that's exactly as you say.
Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to... There are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatles. As if... Beatles have made money. They'll also make money. That is the... And speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellows. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation, or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why this nonsense question. When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it?
Haṁsadūta: No.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, yes.
Guest (1): Yes. So now, thinking on the terms that you have just quoted me, if I as a Jew, as a born Jew, seeing also with Christian conviction that according to the Old and New Testament, this Christ will come again in a latter day, and as a Jew particularly I was taught to believe that He's coming to save the Jews in their land when they're besieged. But I, of course I've always understood anyway that all nations will see Him for their own particular reasons but it will still be that one coming, and whilst he may come to, shall we say, the Jewish Jerusalem, He will obviously be going to everybody else's place at the same time. I think. If place and time exists then, that's the whole...
Haṁsadūta: Well, the whole thing is that we can't speculate on God. We simply have to accept the authoritative statements of scripture.
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: They're also thinking that "We are not sumptuously fed," or something. Some demands is there. Some demand. And they are lying down, Amsterdam and here, on the street. And why? But they are coming of rich families, rich nation. Especially America. In London also, I have seen. Regent Park. They're lying down. Police is kicking. Police is kicking: "Get up, get up!" Why? Behind them the British Empire is, British government is there. Why he's lying down there? Who has told him to...? Government is requesting, "If you have no home, come on. I shall give you home." In Bombay also, these, what is called? The huts?
Haṁsadūta: Huts?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: Those tent huts?
Prabhupāda: They are on the... You have seen in Bombay?
Ambassador: Yes.
Banker: No, no, that is what they say here. Especially in my bank. Our clerks are the top five per cent of the nation's income earners, five thousand rupees or more a year, near the top five percent. But they still say that they're poor and happy. But then once a year they forget that when they ask us for more money. I don't understand it. Contradictory philosophy.
Prabhupāda: There are two things. One material, one spiritual. Spiritually, India is happy, those who are actually spiritualists. But materially, India is unhappy. Spiritually, even if you still go in the interior of village, poor man, living in a cottage, he is taking bath three times and doing his professional work, a cultivator, having little food, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are happy actually. They have got their family, husband, wife, some children. If one lives spiritual life, he is actually happy. Materially, nobody can be happy. In your country, although there is enough facility for material enjoyment, actually they are not happy. Otherwise why in your country the hippies are coming out? They are coming from respectable, rich parents, nation, but they have given up their home, their father's opulence, mother's opulence. That I have seen practically. Practically all my students... Here, Brahmānanda, his father, at least he was a big industrialist, mother. But he did not like. He joined this movement.
Prabhupāda: Production. (indistinct) cooperate. Just like United Nations. We can produce 20 times production that is required.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: So much land.
Guest: Quite right. In America, Australia, I have seen.
Guest: (indistinct) so little water. You can put plastic sheets to collect water.
Prabhupāda: There will not be any scarcity of food. (indistinct)
Guest: Yes, if we work hard.
Prabhupāda: Not work hard, everyone should produce. But who's producing. Suppose in Delhi, such a big city. What is the population?
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the population? Tell me.
Prabhupāda: But these rascals, even though are suffering three kinds of pains, tri-tāpa-yatna. Just like why you are covered? Because there is pain. Severe cold, similarly severe heat. So we are suffering, either summer season or winter season. We are suffering, tri-tāpa-yatna. There is suffering from our mind, from our body—this is natural suffering. There is bodily suffering, mental suffering, then suffering caused by other living entities. So we are always suffering. But still they're thinking that "We are happy." The disease is already there. Ah? Just like the Arabian do not want to give you petrol. That means there's suffering caused by other nations. So this is going on. They're simply trying to settle up. But the suffering is there. But they're not in their knowledge, that in spite of all their endeavors, the sufferings are there. What is the cause? Then whom shall I go to ask why the suffering is there? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum (MU 1.2.12). Therefore you must approach a person who knows how the suffering should be mitigated.
Karandhara: We have also not brought peace in the world.
Prabhupāda: No, our all followers are peaceful. We... I'm getting thousands of letters, how much you are benefited.
Devotee: United Nations gets thousands of letters.
Hṛdayānanda: I don't think so.
Prabhupāda: They get letters protest, that "You, rascal, United Nations, what you are doing for this?"
Karandhara: No, they're getting millions of dollars in contributions every year from people that think they're doing...
Prabhupāda: No, that "in future." No. That is his philosophy. (devotees laugh)
Karandhara: Our philosophy also. We say we can bring peace in the world, but that's in the future.
Devotee (2): No, but they are giving their contributions.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) No.
Hṛdayānanda: The United Nations cannot bring peace either.
Yaśomatīnandana: This is a question of the standard of peace.
Devotees: (discuss among themselves)
Prabhupāda: Then if you say like that, then United Nations is not better than us, you have to accept. If we cannot give peace, and they are not giving peace, then why they are so big organization?
Karandhara: They will say because it is a better organization.
Prabhupāda: They cannot answer. They simply give, they can give simply words, that's all. "United," they're speaking of unity, only flags are increasing. Daily another flag, another flag, another flag, and the flags will never unite. And still they are advertising "United Nations."
Yaśomatīnandana: When the war starts, United States...
Prabhupāda: Yes, in America, they started, United Nations, but they are going to fight with the Vietnam. United Nations.
Prabhupāda: Outlaws, they are called outlaws. Just the outlaws, they do not accept any authority, government authority, or authority of the law, they're called outlaws. Rejected.
Umāpati: Yeah, well, this is a nation of outlaws.
Prabhupāda: So they are rejected. If anyone, everyone becomes his own authority, then it is chaos.
Umāpati: Well, that is the fashion today.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Fashion means...
Umāpati: It's called "Do your own thing."
Prabhupāda: No, who are you to say me, "Do your own thing"? Then you become master. You are directing me. Why should you direct me, "Do your own thing"? You stop. Don't talk. If your philosophy accepted that everyone is authority, you cannot say, "Do your own work." Why should you say? Then you become authority. You should not speak at all.
Prabhupāda: Confusion is not... Chaotic condition, confusion is not proper stage. That is a state of suffering. That is the position at the present moment. Otherwise, why they are fighting, nation to nation, man to man, group to group, community to community, diplomat to dip...? They're simply fighting like cats and dogs. This is not perfect society. Simply ca... They can say dogs. They can simply make barking, "Whowf! Whowf! Whowf! Whowf!" That is not perfect society. Human society should be sober. That is Vedic civilization.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But one should follow the standard morality. When that standard set is lacking or it fails to understand, then people try to speculate their own thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Nobody's following any standard. Just like these Western people, mostly Christians. It is clearly stated in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill." They're simply killing. Their only business is killing.
Prabhupāda: That, then, then, the superior nation can kill inferior nation. Why you have made the United Nations?
Karandhara: It just encourage animalism, animal dominance.
Prabhupāda: Animalism. That is... Then it becomes "Might is right," not "Right is might."
Umāpati: In the Bible, Prabhupāda, there is a statement that many people follow, saying that, where Jehovah says, "Man shall have dominion over the animals, over the fishes and..."
Prabhupāda: That is already there. But that does not mean man should kill them.
Prof. Wolfe: And Jesus did not reverse it.
Hṛdayānanda: Just like a man has dominion over his children.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A father-mother has dominion over the children. Does it mean that he shall kill him?
Umāpati: And eat them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all rascals.
Prajāpati: So much of it is based on politics, also, Prabhupāda. They...
Prabhupāda: Yes, They, they, they're everything, motivated. So therefore they're imperfect. I have got... Just like this United Nations. They have gone there for becoming united, but they remain disunited forever. Just see. All the best men go there for becoming united, but forever they will remain disunited. Just see the practical. Because they're all imperfect, rascals, motivated. How they can be united? They cannot be united. Simply spoiling their time and public money. That's all. Simply spoiling. But public have no eyes to see them. They're also rascal. Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that the whole society's now combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. The cheated want cheaters, and cheaters take the opportunity of the cheated. And that is the combination of the present day society. Somebody, they want to be cheated. And there are some cheaters. So the whole society is combination of cheater and cheated.
Prabhupāda: You are still pious. Otherwise, how you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You are still pious, but you are misguided. Your, your nation is very good. I like the American nation. Simply little reformation required. Now just, for example, this "In God we trust." This is very nice example. Now, they do not know what is God, how to trust. That is, that has to be done. That has to be learned.
Prajāpati: Trust means to depend completely upon God?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Just like Arjuna. While Arjuna was fighting the battle, he completely depended on Kṛṣṇa. But he was not idle. Completely, to depend completely on God does not mean idleness. Arjuna is the example. Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna that "You are My friend. You are My devotee, completely dependent upon Me. So you can sit down." Never said like that. Similarly, we should remain always completely dependent upon God. That does not mean we shall be lazy and idle and gossiping. We must fully utilize the intelligence which God has given us, but at the same time, we must completely depend on God. This is called "In God we trust."
Prabhupāda: I am talking on that matter. So if the American nation trusts in God... If not... They say, they have declared. Now, the difficulty is they do not know actually what is God, how to trust. That we are teaching. So the government must come forward to cooperate with us. This should be... There should be an agitation. Now this "In God we trust," it is, it is something like vague idea. There is a need of... (aside:) You can make copy from there. If you bring one dozen like this, then it is difficult to walk. (about tape recorders) So our propaganda should be to the United, I mean to say, United States government and public. And you are theologicians. You should make program that simply saying that "In God we trust," and we do all nonsense, which exhibits that we do not trust in God, this thing should be stopped. You have placed in your Constitution, there is, you trust in God. Now you should understand what is God and how to trust. That we are teaching. This should be taken very seriously. Because you cannot change your Constitution. Already there is that. But you must know it perfectly well what is God and how to trust Him. That science we are teaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The government should cooperate fully. There should be school, college, to understand what is God, how to trust. This movement should be started. What do you think?
Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. Actually, if the American nation take it seriously, "In God we trust," ...They must take it seriously because it is Constitution. Then the whole world will change. The whole world will change. Not only that. The Americans... Just like they are always combatting with the Communists. Similarly, the American nation should be so strong that anyone godless, he should be fired. Any nation who does not believe in God, war declared. "Either you believe in God or come on. Fight. Come under us." This should be the...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the...
Prabhupāda: It is not that God consciousness, just like our Gaurasundara, to go to a solitary place, and do all rascals and rascaldom. Sell the temple and go to the solitary place. This kind of God-trust, rascaldom, hooliganism, is no trust. You see? This is all hooliganism, nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless. That is going on. It is a regular policy that girls may remain unmarried, and the drunkards and the meat-eaters may take advantage of the prostitution. This is the policy. They have no sympathy. So many hundreds and thousands of innocent girls, they're like children. And they're exposed to prostitution. They have no shelter. Now these girls who are with us, they're feeling some shelter, you see? That we are giving some shelter. Everything should be reformed, political, social, and be, you American nation—you're favored nation, that I am always speaking; you should utilize the favor of God and be yourself perfect—and be leader of the whole world. Anyone who is not believer in God, he should be punished. Because he's animal. He is animal, and he is posing himself as human being. Cheater. Human life is meant for tapasya, for understanding God. That is human life. This dog's life, cat's life, this is not human life. If you become a very powerful tiger, is that human life? They're thinking like that. "If I become as strong as a tiger, then there we are perfect nation." Then what is the use of tiger? It is simply kill only. What other intelligence he has got? So in your country there are so many things to be done. I give you the idea, now you take the leaders. (break) Rascal. Sentimental. Be yourself leader. (break) ...you give up all this material advancement. But there must be Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Hṛdayānanda: If it is so important, I think perhaps I should stay here and help Rūpānuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness, because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God we trust." Now they must take it very seriously. What does it mean by "God"? What does it mean by "trust"? You take this propaganda. We are doing, actually. We trust in God; therefore we have sacrificed our whole life for God. This is trust in God. Not that smoking in the parlor, and you trust in God. Not that kind of trust. Real trust. Trust means first of all you know what is God. Suppose that if you say "Trust this man." But I must know what is this man. Then my trust will be convinced, that "He is very respectful man, he's rich man, he's able man..." Yes, I can trust. But simply trust in God, you do not know what is God, what is trust, and it is going on. Why this bluff? Ah? What you say?
Prajāpati: That that's right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prajāpati: That that's right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must take this clue, that we Americans, we say "In God we trust." Now, every American should know what is God, what is trust. This is propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The government must come forward to patronize this. This is my proposition. So you write articles, you are theologicians. The America must rise up to the occasion. They have pledged themselves, "In God we trust." Every human nation or every human being should be like that. In God they must trust. So America, especially taken up the slogan as part of Constitution. Now there should be regular educational program, that every child, every man, every woman will trust in God. And this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So? Am I wrong in my arguments?
Devotee: No, correct.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you take it seriously, you American boys?
Prajāpati: Also in the Constitution, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a thing called separation of church and state, that they would have...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right. We want to educate, we don't want to take part in administration. But the administration should be under our guidance; they should take advice from us, how to do it. That is required. We are not going to be president. We are satisfied in our humble temple.
Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they won't accept it, although it is fact. Although it is fact. But they will not accept it. Therefore preaching is required, education required, to bring him into sense. This is fact. This portion of the ocean does not belong to any nation or any person; it belongs to God. This moon belongs to God, the sky belongs to God. But they're thinking, "It is mine." And therefore there is trouble. Just like government. The Senate is there, so they sit down together, and if there is any problem they discuss together to find out the solution. Similarly, they have got this United Nation. Why do they not consider, "First of all let us settle to whom this planet belongs"?
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: They're United Nation, first of all let us settle. They are fighting: "I'm Arabian," "I'm Indian," "I'm American," "I'm Englishman..." "All right, let us settle actually to whom this planet belongs." They cannot do that, because all of them are thieves. None of them will agree that it belongs to God. The real fact, that they will not agree. Then how there can be peace? Because they're all cheaters. They want to cheat God. God's property, they're claiming "ours." All thieves and rogues, so how there can be any settlement? There cannot be any settlement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to stop spread of communism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. (?) (dog barking loudly) Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Kotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Why the first commandment is there, "Thou shall not kill"? They were fighting and killing amongst themselves. Not very advanced nation. And he was horrified when he saw that the Jews were killing animals.
Dr. Patel: In the temple.
Prabhupāda: In the temple.
Dr. Patel: Not only that. They were, I mean, doing all that money-changing and taking bribes and all that. I think he...
Prabhupāda: Well, that is professional... It is not very. So everyone takes bribe and everyone is interested in money than anything. That is not very great fault. You see. When you are in the material world, you require money. That is fact.
Dr. Patel: That's right. Even in Mara-mari (?) also, you think only... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, this independence movement was started from Bengal. Partition of Bengal and the movement started, Surendranath Bannerjee. Gandhi admitted, "Father of nation is Surendranath Bannerjee." Yes. And later on, actually, if you don't take other, the independence came through a Bengali, Subash Chandra Bose.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Right.
Dr. Patel: Not even... Philosophy also. Gaurapāda,(?) the grandson of Śaṅkarapāda. Gaurapāda, Gaurapāda was, he's Govindapāda and Govindapāda is Śaṅkarācārya. So that also you will see that some Śaṅkara's greatest sire was a Bengali gentleman.
Prabhupāda: Now taking too much, too much taking in political part. Aurobindo, Aurobindo, he was a politician.
Jayapatākā: Paramahaṁsa and Parivrājakācārya were preaching in... Where was that? The East? What is that nation? Siam?
Parivrājakācārya: Thailand.
Jayapatākā: Thailand. And there they would offer the people rasagullā, but they would put soy sauce on it.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayapatākā: They would put this bitter sauce on it. Then only they would take.
Prabhupāda: And in Burma, my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch. So when they were frying puri, the, nice ghee, all the tenants, "Oh! What you are...!?" (laughter) They cannot tolerate. But in Burma, there is a preparation which is called nafi. The nafi means that a, a big jar will be kept on the door, and whatever animals, insect, cockroaches will die, they'll put in that. And during rainy season, it will be filled with water. And it will be kept for years. Then... And the bad smell was so terrible that if somebody would open the lid, it will immediately create very bad smell. So after some years, they will strain the water and keep in bottle. And when there is festival, they'll supply it in small... That is called nafi. And they'll take it very pleasantly. And when they were frying ghee, "Oh! What you are doing, this?!"
Prabhupāda: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghāma, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghāma and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghāma means perspiration. (break) ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. (break) ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No. Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately: "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see. Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animals. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. (break) ...example that they have started that United Nations. What they have done actually? United Nations.
Prabhupāda: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nations." All nations, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? (laughter) So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace. They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong?
Hṛdayānanda: Right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So study this institution.
Viṣṇujana: Thirty years now.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, humbug program, and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁha-deva. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). (break) ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Mūrkha, a rascal, if you give him good instruction... But give him practical. "Come here. Sit down. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And help me by doing this." In this way you have to... Just like a child. Child does not want to go to school, but some, by... Find out some means so that he'll be induced. That is intelligence. He'll be angry, naturally. He's a rascal. He'll be angry. That is not unnatural. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Just like a snake. You feed the snake with milk. It will increase the poison. That's all. Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract.
Dr. Patel: Because their method of working is more honest in a way. If they get money then we get jealous of them because...
Prabhupāda: No, they, they are feeling nationally. They are feeling nationally. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Even though it is a nation of hodge-podge people from Europe, but still they are...
Prabhupāda: So therefore they have said United Nations.
Dr. Patel: Still, they are well-welded(?).
Guest (1): United States.
Prabhupāda: United States. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma... (break)
Dr. Patel: ...over-clever or whatever you may call, but the American would be outwitted by a Gujarati baniya if he has got the same money, same, I mean, freedom of business and same facility to work. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the plan is to drive away the Gujaratis from Africa. (laughter) Yes. The Britishers are afraid. The Britishers are afraid that if the Indians, they are allowed to remain here, they will not be able to exploit the Africans.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is rogues. So what is the value of that laws? The legislative assembly means a set of rogues, and if they legislate something, what is the value of that? (break) Caught like that, yes. Because people are becoming degraded, so they elected such degraded everything. (break) Shameless. The whole nation is asking that "You resign." "No." Such shameless. (break) ...that somebody was in the room, and the outsider says, "Who is in the room?" "No, no! I am not stealing!" (laughter) "No, no, I am not stealing."
Prabhupāda: Others also, followers. These ordinary, so-called Gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, in the outwardly, in religious dress, and inwardly they are committing so many sinful activities, they will become the dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana. So one Gosvāmī, he has taken very much objection to this writing, and he is making propaganda against me like anything. There was arrangement of reception. He stopped it. (break) That I have also written, that now, after finishing the sinful reaction, these monkeys and dogs will be liberated. That I have also written. (break) ...one has passed stool, during daytime, due to the sunshine, the upper side is dry. So if somebody says, "This side is better than the other side. The moist side is not so good. The dry side is good." (break) ...nation, you'll find (indistinct) gentlemen, but they do not know that these things are criminals. They think it is ordinary thing, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication.
Mahāṁśa: You should never trust a politician, so if you cannot trust a politician, why we elect him as a leader, why should he be a leader?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, "Do not trust" means you are also not trustworthy, nobody trusts you, and you should also not. That is their philosophy. All these big, big politicians, just like United Nations. The same philosophy is going on. Nobody trusts anyone, but they speak big, big...
Akṣayānanda: Did he mean because the politician will degrade... (end)
Prabhupāda: ...Vaiṣṇava kavi has sung,
viṣaya chāriyā, se rase mājīyā,
- mukhe bala hari hari
Unless you are free from the material desires, you cannot enjoy what is the celestial or spiritual bliss in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. If one has got material desires, he cannot enjoy.
viṣaya chāriyā, se rase mājīyā,
mukhe bala hari hari
(break) ...can see here United Nation actually. Here is Britisher, here is American, here is African, here is Indian, here is Hindu, Canadian, Hindu, Muslim, Christian-all. This is United Nation. Just let them see practically what is United Nation. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—all combined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do they not see? The so-called unity, brotherhood, why do they not see the reality?
Dr. Patel: United Nations were created...
Prabhupāda: No, no, not only United Nation, united in everything, "universal brotherhood," whatever you call-here is the example.
Dr. Patel: So-called United Nations were created not for unity.
Prabhupāda: No, no, either so-called United Nation or so-called nation. Here is also there is nation. What do they know about nation? Everyone, he is interested with his own pocket. That's all. "What money is coming in my pocket." That's all. Where is the nationality? If there was nationality, why such havoc could have happened? Now the strike is going on. There is no feeling of nationality because they are not thinking of the nation; they are thinking of their own pocket, that's all. Where is the nationality? They are simply bogus slogans. Actual unity, nationality, universality, is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is a fact. Let them see. Men, women also. There are women also. We do not hate anyone. Come on. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
O'Grady: But that's giving it a name also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, name, must be there. But name... Just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names... That is called so 'ham. One feels... The same example: In a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā?
O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time?
Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nations. And after that again there was war. (chuckles)
O'Grady: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nations. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united, but when I go New York, I see flags are increasing, no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform.
Prabhupāda: Well, Chamberlain may tried, might have tried to stop the war, but he could not stop the cause of the war. So far we know that the two wars started by Germany on account of Britain. So far I have studied. The German people did not like the Britishers to occupy the trade all over the world. And wherever they went to trade, they were restricting. I know this fact. In India the Britishers monopolized all trade, and they would not allow German goods to come in. So that was the cause of the war. The German knew that the Britishers, they are purchasing from Germany and stamping it "Made in London" and selling in India at high price. And when the Germans go there, they are not allowed to enter. This is the cause of the war. The Germans still, they do not like to speak in English. They are so envious. So Chamberlain might have tried to stop war, but his nation created the cause of the war. Why there should be... That was the demand, that free trade. Germans, in the, what is called, peace negotiation, their demand was free trade. Everyone... And that is very good. Why trade should be... This is unnatural. Let there be free trade. General public, they want best thing at good price, at cheap price. So if Japan and Germany can supply goods, necessary goods, at cheaper price, why they should be restricted? Let the people take advantage of it.
Prabhupāda: Many countries... Especially we are Indian. We have seen in India. Nowadays there is no eatables. The government cannot supply food, failure, the problem which is not even amongst the beasts and birds. The birds and beasts, they have no such problem. They are freely living, jumping from one tree to another, because they know there is no problem of eating. And human society, there is problem of eating. What is the advancement? And there is enough place for producing food. I have seen Africa, Australia. Enough place. If the foodstuff is produced there, ten times of the population can be well fed. But they are: "Don't enter. Don't come here." The Africans will say to the Indians, "Don't come here. Go out." What is this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. We say, "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and utilize Kṛṣṇa's property." This is the best philosophy. But the so-called politicians and leaders, they are saying "No, you cannot enter here," immigration. America has got enough place to produce food. But they will, although they have gone to the United Nation, UNESCO, they could not find out any solution. Although there is possibility of producing ten times of the requisites of the whole population of the world, they will not allow. They will not allow.
Prabhupāda: Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea. Just like in India they say, daridra-nārāyaṇa. Some nation, that to give service to the human being, and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad-gītā. If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā, verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: There is one United Nations report that very soon venereal disease will reach epidemic proportions all over the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago. You know that Dr. Ghosh?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He told me that when he was student, so one professor, Colonel Megar, he described in the classroom—he is Englishman—that "In our country, 75% of the students, they are infected with venereal disease." So Dr. Ghosh as a student, "Oh, it is horrible." So he replied, "Why do you say, 'Horrible'? It is disease. In your country, 90% people are infected with malarial disease. So as a medical practitioner, you should not say that this disease is horrible; that disease is very nice. You cannot say that." That was between them. So this venereal disease, fifty years ago we heard that 75% of students are infected. Now they are advanced; cent percent must be.
Prabhupāda: If there is no opposite elements, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā: (BG 18.54) "As soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become jubilant." So where is your enemy? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then where is your enemy? Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days. So many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any (indistinct), very quickly this Communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight, like cats and dogs. "Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood." So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is "You come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest." Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam: "Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest." And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept here.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, I think we better go somewhere else. There is too many cars here.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this isn't a place for walking. (break)
Yogeśvara: ...all the major nations of the world have... These atomic weapons constitute very great storehouses for them. So what should they do with all of these things.
Prabhupāda: They should throw. I throw upon you, you throw upon me. You go to hell, I go to hell. That's all. This will be the result. And the world will be cleansed of these all rascals. This will be the result. (laughs)
Bhagavān: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you say that even the atomic bombs can be used in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: It will be used by nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). He is thinking that "I am proprietor of this atomic bomb," but he does not know that the other's atomic bomb will kill me, and my atomic bomb, I kill him. That's all. He does not know that. He is thinking, "I am very proud of possessing." But that will be the cause of his death.
Satsvarūpa: "You are calling us animals?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale that's all." So these rascal, actually, they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, advance. This is advancement, that "We have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden, now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization.
Prabhupāda: That is very kind of you.
C. Hennis: Thank you very much. I come from the International Labor Organization which is an organization in the United Nations family. It's the second organization after the United Nations itself, and it's interested in every form of labor, every form of activity connected with labor, and the protection of the worker, the welfare of the worker. And in many respects, of course, our preoccupations must overlap with yours in certain respects of the activities, of man in general and his protection and his well-being.
Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, the labor class man is supposed to be the fourth-class man. First-class man, intelligentsia, very intelligent, learned. Or intelligent—one who can understand up to God. To understand God requires great intelligence. So first intelligent class of men, up to, so they are called brāhmaṇa. The next intelligent class man, those who give protection to the society, kṣatriya. And the third class, those who produce food and distribute. They are third class. And other, all others, they are fourth class.
C. Hennis: Yeah. I think...
Prabhupāda: Just let me finish. So United Nation is taking care of the fourth class department of the society. What they are taking care of the first-class department? That is my question?
Nitāi: He is asking what are they doing to care for that first division.
Prabhupāda: At the present moment in the society, there is very, very little care for the first-class intellectual class of men.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is my request to you.
C. Hennis: That's UNESCO. That I can't answer upon very fully. But I would suggest that they are, in that way UNESCO, United Nations through UNESCO, is very active in promoting culture and in stimulating philosophical thought. We are, on our side are more concerned with the place of the worker in society, and our organization is conceived along a peculiar model which we call the tripartite system. The members of our organization are states, not governments, but states, and each state is represented in our conference by two government delegates, one delegate of the employers and one delegate of the workers. And so the decisions that are reached, the same pattern goes down through the other organs of the organization. But the decisions that are reached in the International Labor Organization are thus not decisions which are only those of the government or the governing classes. They are decisions which represent a very broad consensus of opinions between both the employers and the workers as well as governments. And to that extent we do hope to find resolutions that have a very wide basis of ratification. After they are agreed upon by these three different elements of society represented in our International Labor Conference and in the other organs of the International Labor Organization, we endeavor to get the decisions ratified by national governments. Nevertheless the people who are here go back to their countries and try and get the decisions ratified so that a measure of uniformity in social justice and in the treatment of labor and protection of labor and in social security and in occupational safety and health and of all these things which are bound up with work and also payments to professional workers such as architects, nurses, doctors, people who work on a quite independent basis without being employed. It's not necessarily employees. Veterinarians and so on. The conditions of employment...
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed.
C. Hennis: So it's the whole bovine race that's protected, and not just the cows themselves, not just the female cows?
Prabhupāda: No, both the male and female. The bullocks are used for so many other purposes. They can till the field. They can be used for transportation, so many other purposes. Or even we are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. During Kṛṣṇa's time... Kṛṣṇa was born of a very well-to-do father, but at that time the bullocks were engaged for transportation from one village to another, one village to another. Or for carrying goods. Actually the United Nations should now think how the whole human society can live peacefully for a purpose of life, not whimsically, without any purpose of life. Now, anywhere... We are preaching. We are going everywhere. If I ask any gentleman, any philosopher, any scientist , if I ask him that "What is the purpose of life?" he cannot explain. That means there is lack of intelligent class of men. Nobody knows what is the purpose of life.
Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is "I have got money. Now let me drink," that's all. There must be...
C. Hennis: First of all, you can't force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can't force a man to use his brains.
Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is... The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy.
Yogeśvara: That is our movement.
C. Hennis: I think that that's a...
Prabhupāda: That is our movement.
C. Hennis: Yes, but I don't think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. I don't think that... At least, you can't expect an international organization to indoctrinate people on the national level. I'm sure that the...
Prabhupāda: No, it is not national. It should be international. Just like everyone... United Nation, it is meant for international activity. Our only proposition is that as the international organization, United Nations, they should keep a class of men who should act as brain. Then it will be all right. Without brain, simply legs and hands working, no direction, that is not very good.
C. Hennis: I think you'd have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don't go...
Prabhupāda: We can see provided we get the chance.
C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders of government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labor Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor...
Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If... You can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point.
Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That's the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain... This is the work of the first-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, any office, "These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for..." Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nations, such a great. This was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization.
C. Hennis: That's true. That's true.
Prabhupāda: That is my point.
C. Hennis: That's true. They're servants of the membership and the membership is the international..., of the states, of the world. And if the governments of the states of the world, if Mr. Giscard d'Estaing, Mr. Nixon and Mr. Wilson and all the others don't have brain, then I'm afraid that the United Nations can do nothing to give them brains. There has to be... We are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand their problems.
Prabhupāda: Let them understand. At least, let them understand what they should do, what they should not do. This much...
Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big..., but where is it people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nations? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something. That's all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities.
Yogeśvara: He admitted it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milk-mother. And bull is producing food—he is father. And they are being killed? Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility. Regularly they are maintaining slaughterhouse especially for the cows and bulls. Why don't you slaughter the dogs and hogs and eat if you are meat-eater? There are many meat-eaters who eat dogs. Dog is useless. You can eat. Hog is also useless. They are eating also dog and hog, everything, whatever they...
Yogeśvara: There is no direction.
Prabhupāda: No direction. There is no brain. Therefore for the last, why last? Twenty years? Before that, in our younger days, the League of Nation, that was formulated in 1918, '19. So they are trying to unite the whole nation under different names from '18, apart from other year. So for the more than fifty-five, sixty years, they are all good brains of the nation. What they have done? That means they have no brain. The problems are increasing. Instead of decreasing the problems, they are increasing.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You used the example that in the United States...
Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation, there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs, my home, your home, fighting. That's all. Although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now, in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing, partyism. So where is the brain?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight... Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged.
Guru-gaurāṅga: In that agricultural report it said that if they were to eat all the grains that they give to the cows and animals, they could get twenty times more calories than by eating meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wrong civilization, rascal civilization. And this is due to this rascaldom, nationalism, "This is my land." And at any moment he will be kicked out. Still, he claims, "It is my land." Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is the illusion. Nothing belongs to him; still he is fighting, "This is mine. This is mine." "I" and "mine." Identifying himself with this body, "I", and wrongly conceiving that "This is mine." This is the basic principle of wrong civilization. Both things are... Nothing belongs to him. Suppose I have come here in Switzerland. If I remain here for one month and I claim, "Oh, this is mine," what is this? So similarly, I come as guest. Everyone comes as guest in the womb of his mother and lives here for fifty years. He is claiming, "It is mine." When, when, when it became yours? The land was long, long time before your birth. How it became yours? But they have no sense. "It is mine." "Fight." "My land, my nation, my family, my society." In this way, wasting time. These things have been introduced by these western mlecchas. In the Vedic civilization there is no such thing as nationalism. You won't find. Have you seen in the Bhagavad-gītā any word, "nationalism?" No such thing. This is the original ideas of the tribes. In the jungle there is... Just like in Africa there are still groups of tribes. This is most crude idea of civilization, nationalism. This is tribalized. It is nothing but development of just tribalism. And eating also the same. They are not advanced in civilization. This nationalism is another form of tribalism, that's all.
Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are sinful rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the fascist, he is sinful or the person attacking the fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now... Formerly, there was fight between nation to nation and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves.
Prof. Regamay: Awfully.
Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed.
Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: The fascist and the non-fascist and this and everyone... And that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, fascist and non-fascist. Because according to Bhagavad..., paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names.
Prabhupāda: Reaction. Everything... Yajñārthe karmaṇo yatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Whatever you do, you are bound up by the reaction. That is nature's law. (break) ...and occasionally there will be big war, and they'll kill themselves. That's all. Now they are killing animals. That is a separate from human being. But time will come, the human beings, they will kill themselves, one another. Not only one, two, but wholesale. Daily, millions or thousands will be killed. They want to avoid war. For that reason, they invented the United Nations. Eh?
Bhagavān: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So why they want to avoid war? What is the reason?
Bhagavān: For avoiding war?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: They want to maintain their pleasure.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why encroach upon others' pleasure? Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). Īśopaniṣad says, "Don't encroach upon others' pleasure."
Professor Durckheim: There is only one way toward peace, through self-realization of those who are responsible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Self-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that one should understand that "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany. This is England. This is France. This is India. This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean, and this is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding, that "Nothing belongs to us..." The United Nations, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace.
Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) (break) Kali-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: If it is religious life. If in the name of religion it is sinful life, that is another thing. Alright Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. samaḥ sarveṣu, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate. That is the stage of making advancement in devotional life. Equality. Equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual life. Otherwise the United Nations will never be able to unite. That is not possible. (indistinct) If they unite, if they try to unite on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then. Otherwise.... We are all part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are all differently dressed, although we are one. (indistinct) Now just like you are Canadian, I am Indian. (indistinct). There are crows, there are pigeons, there are sparrows (indistinct). Why they are not quarreling? Simply you are designated European, Indian and Canadian, German, so we have to give up this designation. Then they will be united. Otherwise, but they are very much proud of these designations. Therefore, bhakti means sarvopādhi vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). When one is completely free from designation. The designation is (indistinct). And the whole world is being ruled by designation, "I am Indian", (indistinct). Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8).
Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned souls that they are struggling for existence. Instead of finding out how to come to the original consciousness and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means love. So everyone is struggling hard how to reach the platform of love. So many institutions-philanthropic, international, United Nations. The only attempt, how to love each other. But they'll struggle, they'll not attain the platform, simply struggle. There have been so many attempts, even the favorite example, the United Nations. How much they are doing and people have got the idea of philanthropism, countryism, communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is they are trying to come to the platform of love.
Prabhupāda: What is the loss if we sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? And if there is some gain (indistinct) If you propose this in the United Nations do you think (indistinct)
Guest: Like we did together in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have seen it? They are very much eager.
Guest: So many people.
Prabhupāda: They are very much eager. (indistinct)
Guest: Eager?
Prabhupāda: And the other, the communist and the other (indistinct). I have seen many big, big officers they are chanting returning from the office and they are chanting and dancing. (indistinct) 20,000, 30,000. (indistinct) Now the government did not give us again that place in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: "We shall burn it down." They are seeing practically. After all, they are businessmen. "Shopkeeper's nation." They see practically that if such kind of movements go on... People are already, have no interest in the church. In Chicago, they wrote "American Hindus." They wrote in the paper. Then Hindu, Hindu religion will be prominent.
Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is very wealthy. They don't want to lose their...
Prabhupāda: So what will wealth do? If it does not appeal to the people, what wealth will do? In Chicago also, the Christians came with some wooden signboard. You have seen?
Bali Mardana: No, I didn't see.
Prabhupāda: "It is through Christ. It is through..." They were showing me. So that has been criticized by the newspapermen, that "Nobody cares for you." (laughter) Yes.
Jayatīrtha: Unless there's a conspiracy, there should be no objection.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That will disclose their conspiracy. "We abide by your order that without your order our ratha will not move, go to the Trafalgar... That's all right. You have allowed palanquin. That's accepted." Do like that, tactfully. First of all, take the sanction. In America, in... They have appreciated. That Reverend Powell. No, there is no objection anywhere. Why this rascal, falling-down nation, British, they're objecting? Apāt-kāle viparīta-buddhi. They are falling down, they will commit offense and discrepancies more and more so that they will be nowhere. I think after this Queen, this monarchy there, the so-called monarchy will be also finished. Because her son, her husband, both of them are hippies. The Queen's husband and Queen's son, the Prince of Wales, both of them are hippies. So this monarchy will be also finished. (pause) What that Mahādeva is doing there in Africa?
Brahmānanda: He's not doing very well.
Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated.
Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave, artificially he thinks that "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money (indistinct) ...lot of money, so who is better than me?" (indistinct) She has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road, the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal (indistinct) an apartment, very nice apartment (indistinct). It is (indistinct), either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nations.
Gurudāsa: The United Nations is also encouraging sex.
Prabhupāda: They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered around that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is there. They do not know anything else.
Brahmānanda: That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the Freud's philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Ṭhākura took his compassion, "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she became purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end)
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So they are going or simply stock?
Rāmeśvara: No. It is greatly reduced since they have arrived.
Prabhupāda: So Haṁsadūta, he has to make a go-down like this.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Then he'll defeat these charges. Eh? When the nation, German nation, will accept these books, then that will be proper reply, charges.
Rāmeśvara: This forklift lifts these pallets high up to the ceiling.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: It's... Especially, we are Indian. It is advertised that we are poverty-stricken. All over the world this is advertised. Wherever I go, they say, "Oh, you are coming from India?" (laughter) Because they are simply begging, the government. But who is dying? There is... Dying is going on, but that death is going on in other countries also. They are dying, committing suicide. And maybe some persons are dying out of starvation. You cannot stop death. Suppose you have got enough food. That means that everything is solved? In America there is enough food. Why they are coming hippies? There is no shortage of food. Nothing... Everything is abundant, but why they are becoming hippies? They are lying down on the street, on the park and I have seen in London, the St. James Park. They are sleeping, and the police is kicking: "Hey! Get up! Get up!" So why? The English nation is not poor nation. The American nation is not poor nation.
Prabhupāda: The physical defect... Just like a driver of the car, and when his car is damaged, the driver becomes very sorry that "My car is now broken, damaged," but is the driver the carriage? Sometimes a valuable car is damaged and the proprietor or the driver, he becomes very sorry, almost half-dead, "Oh, my car is lost." So this is due to his too much attraction for the car. When the machine car stops (it) does not mean the driver is damaged. But he thinks, "Now, I am finished. My car is damaged." But although he is not the car, he thinks that he is damaged. So that is mental disease. He is different from the car, but he thinks that he is damaged by the damage of the car. And if he knows correctly, that "What is that? I will get another new car," what is the cause of suffering? The driver is not the car, but on account of his too much absorption, identifying the car with him, he suffers. So if the psychiatrist informs him that "Why you are sorry? You are not the car," then he is cured. So the modern civilization defect is that he is not this body, but he does not know it. Therefore, in the Vedic literature it is said, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke: (SB 10.84.13) "Anyone is identifying himself with this body which is made of material element," yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu, "and in bodily relationship he is thinking his family is protector, his nation is protector, in this way, one who lives, he is no better than the animal." Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā... You find out this verse, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase.
Ambassador: I never managed to love them. I can love most things, but not crocodiles.
Prabhupāda: No, they are also God's creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Those who are spiritually advanced, they see equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na ka..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Samaḥ sarveṣu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance in devotional life—equality. That equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence. Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the platform of love. So many institution-philanthropy, international and the United Nation—the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling. They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own way. The Kṛṣṇa solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of love.
Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives very shortcut formula that "You sit together, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be solved." Very simple thing: "Sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That also they will not do. There is no loss. Let us make an experiment—that also we are not executing. What is the loss? If we sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we are not losing anything. If there is some gain, why not make an experiment? So if you propose this to the United Nation, he'll think of me, "A crazy fellow."
Prabhupāda: ...in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was the first origin of this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man. And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations under this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I think I have given this hint in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Nitai: Teachings of Lord Caitanya. Yes.
Ambassador: Well, I am very happy to have had this chance to be with you. How long will you be here?
Prabhupāda" :Two days.
Ambassador: That's all. And then?
Prabhupāda: I am going to India. We have to hold the Lord Caitanya's birthday anniversary. And open our Vṛndāvana temple. In Bombay we have got very nice land purchased, and the government will not give us sanction for the temple. The... I approached the Maharastra governor through another friend governor. The governor of Uttar Pradesh, he is my friend. So I explained to him, "This this is the position. You request the governor to give me sanction." So he has very ardently requested, explaining the whole thing about my position, my... He is member of this movement, and still, he is neglecting. He has said no. Yet... But no answer.
Prabhupāda: Servant. God is supreme, we are all subordinate. God is maintaining us just like father maintains. So it is the duty of the son to be obedient to the father, to act according to his order. Then everything is perfect. At the present moment on account of this bodily concept of life every one of us thinking nationality and duty of nation, duty of the community, duty of the family, so many duties. But actually we, being spiritual, our only duty is to serve God. We are serving; everyone is serving. That is our constitutional position, to serve. But at the present moment we are serving māyā, illusion, and we have to be trained up to serve the Supreme Being. Then our life is perfect. (break) ...at the present moment, although there are many religious system, they have no clear conception of God, although religion means to approach God. There is no religion throughout the whole world which is not connected with the word God. So religion means to understand God. But if we have no clear conception of God, then the religion is defective. Do you admit it or not? Religion means to understand God or God's laws. That is religion. But if we do not understand what is God, then that religion is also defective. So far our position is, we are approaching directly God through His agent, and our conception of God is there in the temple worship or our working for God. But we have got no vague idea of God. We have got complete idea: Kṛṣṇa. You want to speak anything?
Prabhupāda: A simple formula. Anyone can think of Kṛṣṇa always. Anyone can offer obeisances. Bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Anyone can serve Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. So four principle: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Even a child can do that. And by doing these four things he becomes perfect. And the other verse,
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
It is open for everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Even born in low-grade family, it doesn't matter. If he accepts these four principles, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiḥ, they also become transferred to the supreme goal. And Kṛṣṇa is not meant for any particular type of men or nation or country. No. Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ...
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize—what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain?
Guest: The whole nation is worker?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?
Prabhupāda: And the whole devotional service means ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). That is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, cleansing the dirty-politically, socially, communally, and internationally, nationally... In this way, it is all contaminated. So that, that is called upādhi, unnecessary. Just like water. You bring the colored water. That is contamination, not crystal. So these are different colors. So you have to strain the water from different colors. Then that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Consciousness is already there. So instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," I am thinking, "I am my family's. I am my, my cat's, my dog's, my nation's, my community's..." This thinking is opposite Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when you simply think that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," that's all. That is all.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah.
Jayatīrtha: So, so the agenda...
Prabhupāda: Is that all right?
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Nobody follows. We do not follow... There are so many... Why they are struggle? Why they struggle? Why do you fight? Because you are all thieves—you want to steal God's gold-therefore you fight. Why do you fight? Why you declare war from one nation to another? Because you are all thieves and you want to steal God's gold. Therefore there is fight. Why do you claim, "This is America, my land"? Is it your land? Have your forefathers created this? Why you falsely claim like that? What is the answer? You have stolen from another party, Red Indians, and you are now claiming, "We are the proprietor." You are thieves. You are not even gentlemen. What do you think?
Pañcadraviḍa: But they say... They say, "God is up in heaven. What does He need with gold?"
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: They say, "God is up in heaven. What does He need with gold?"
Prabhupāda: "God is up in heaven"? What is that?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say God...
Prabhupāda: Because the master is in heaven, or in some other place, therefore we shall steal?
Tripurāri: They say, "God gave us the land to do what we want with."
Viṣṇujana: The Arab men all go to America to be trained in the armed forces there.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Viṣṇujana: In all the armed forces centers in America, they train the Arab nations to fight.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Viṣṇujana: They let the young men come into the U.S.A. to learn how to use the missiles and everything.
Pañcadraviḍa: Recently, this Bhutto of Pakistan, he was very happy because they were talking about lifting a ten-year holding on arms from the United States, and now, they say, Pakistan will soon get arms from America.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are getting. They are already getting. The Pakistan will start the war with India. And then everything will be...
Devotees: Oh! Whew!
Devotee: Pakistan will start a war... (devotees talking among themselves.)
Pañcadraviḍa: They have started the war maybe eight times.
Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hmm? No, we can go.
Prabhupāda: That is intelligence—you surrender. You are surrendering to māyā, to your wife, to your dog, to your family, to your house, to your nation. Why not God? You rascal. You are surrendering to so many other things. Why not to God?
Rūpānuga: Just like you told that Russian professor that he is surrendering to Lenin, but we are surrendering to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rūpānuga: But everyone has to surrender.
Prabhupāda: Surrender, this, that is the only way. You cannot become independent. You have to surrender. Who is a man who has not surrendered? At least he finds out a dog and surrenders to him. (laughter) In your country there are so many people living with the dog. So surrender is the only business of you. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). (pause) So Acyutānanda cannot come?
Viṣṇujana: He's lecturing in the temple.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. (break)
Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win.
Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number.
Rāmeṣvara: But these modern wars are fought with missiles and bombs more than armies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, also, there were brahmāstra, fire, firearms, brahmāstra. (break) ...problems that we are facing, they were also in the past under different name, different form.
Prabhupāda: Simply cheated.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he wanted to be cheated.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Daughter (indistinct) and grand-daughter, all cheaters. Remember in the United Nation, (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She cannot speak Japanese.
Prabhupāda: Everything cheated.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She even said that she had four stillborn children. And we went to the hospital and there was no record of her having even been admitted to the hospital. Bali Mardana, she told him to wait downstairs while she gave birth to the four children and then two hours later she came down, she said, "Now it is finished." And he took her and drove away.
Prabhupāda: Mesmerized.
Prabhupāda: ...There is no possible (?) Tell them, this United Nations Organization, that "You are all bogus. You cannot do it. Come to this platform, and you'll be able." They have proved themselves bogus for the last 25 years, I think. They started in 1947? Huh?
Devotee: 1945.
Prabhupāda: Forty-five. (To passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how many years they have...
Devotees: Thirty years.
Prabhupāda: Thirty years. Uselessly. Wasting money and time... (break) ...that this movement is very good. He goes step forward, simply by saying this, that "These people are doing very nice." Ajñāta sukṛti. Kṛta-puṇya-puñja. So, both say (Hindi) (end)
Prabhupāda: They are industrious, and they have got resources.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they have developed more recently, I think. They were not colonizing.
Prabhupāda: No, the colonizing propaganda was amongst these three nation. France, English...
Dhanañjaya: Spanish and Portuguese. Spanish also.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that side, is, means Western side.
Guru-kṛpa: Spanish went to South America.
Dhanañjaya: But the British used to say, "The sun never sets in the British empire."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we knew in our childhood.
Jayādvaita: Now there's no empire for the sun to set on.
Prabhupāda: No. Now they have made it Commonwealth, keeping some scent, flavor of British empire. Commonwealth.
Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is a culture.
Guest (1): Oh. Yes, this culture...
Prabhupāda: Because we are admitting persons from various religions, various nations, various countries, and they accept this culture and they become purified.
Guest (1): Do they have to wear those clothes and shave their heads and chanting those things...
Prabhupāda: That is optional. That is also optional. That is not compulsory. But in India because the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they dress in a particular way, they do that. But that is not compulsory. But it has got a psychological effect, because whenever we go, people chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So by this dress, we give chance, the other men, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So, that is the fact. Unless God desired, how they can win? That, we admit that.
Hari-śauri: But now they are again becoming a mouse, the Americans? Now they are losing the favor of God?
Prabhupāda: No, they are right officially: "We trust in God." (break) ...the whole, I think, Americans are fortunate because this saṅkīrtana movement is there. Yes. If they take it more seriously, they will be actually favored nation of the Lord.
Hari-śauri: At the present moment it seems that the Communist movement seems to be taking over more and more countries.
Prabhupāda: They will take because people are becoming godless. That is the defect. People are becoming hippies, godless. This material world is full of miseries because most people are godless. Here... Material world means avoiding God. That is the sum and substance of material world. They are trying to avoid, becoming independent of God. That is their endeavor. The scientist, the philosopher, the politician—everyone is trying that. Therefore they are suffering. Māyā is there. Just like a criminal, if he says "I don't care for government," the police will take care of. That is certain.
Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Prabhupāda: Now you have got the United Nations. Now, if they are sane men, they should pass resolution, "The whole world belongs to God, and we are all God's sons. So let us make now United States of the World." That can be easily done. If they can make United States of America, why not United States of the whole world?
Guest 2: I think that would probably solve a lot of problems because...
Prabhupāda: Yes, all problems. Now, suppose in India there is scarcity of foodstuff. In America, in Africa, in Australia, there is enough grain. Produce foodstuff, distribute. Then immediately whole nations become united. Use everything, God's gift—we are all sons—very nicely. Then the, all the problems solved. Now the difficulty is that we have made, "No, this is my property. We shall use it, nation." In the Vedic conception there is no such thing as national. There is no such conception. That is the idea, Vedic conception of society or politics. There is no question of national.
Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I certainly don't.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we want to do: one God, one state, one scripture, and one activity. That is the ultimate end of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are from different countries. We don't think as nationalism, that "I am American," "I am Indian." No. We all think that "We are all servant of Kṛṣṇa." And they are working in that spirit. It is possible. If this idea is accepted in that United Nation, it can be done. But they will not accept. They are going go be united, but everyone is thinking, "First of all my interest." All cheating. They are outwardly, "Now we have come to the United Nation," but no one is going to be united. Everyone is thinking, "It is my first interest first. I must give veto if he's opposing." This is going on. Therefore for the last twenty years or more than that, they are trying to be united, but it is becoming disunited. The flags are increasing. In New York they have got their headquarters. When I pass through, I see that another flag has increased.
So this United Nations is a failure and it will be failure because there is no God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi?
Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. She will be there on the 17th and 18th. So we are carrying that spirit.
Prabhupāda: The thing is everyone is trying to be united. That United Nation is for the last twenty years. They started in 1947, United Nations? Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, '47.
Prabhupāda: And it is seventy...
Paramahaṁsa: Almost thirty years.
Prabhupāda: Thirty years. What they have done? All the best men of the whole world, they are there, but no united, simply disunited. Common platform, they are not agreeable. They do not accept God.
Yogi Bhajan: Um hm.
Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty, no central point. You have got your own philosophy. I have got my own philosophy. He has got his own philosophy. Now, how we will agree?
Yogi Bhajan: No, I may not agree with your philosophy, and you may not agree with my philosophy, but one thing we both have agreed that you are you, and I am I, and both can have respect and love for each other. And there has to be a place where everybody should be given that opportunity.
Prabhupāda: That is going on. When I meet you I say, "Yes sir." You say, "Yes sir." That is all right. That is social etiquette. But real unity is on the platform of spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍita, he is sama-darśina.
Prabhupāda: That "American" that I have discussed. Those who are in the bodily concept of life, they are not even human being. They are animals. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). One who takes this body, "I am, I am American, I am German, I am Englishman, I am Indian," they are animals. They are not even human being. When you deny, that "I am not American, I am not Indian, not Englishman. I am not this body," then he is in the spiritual body. That's all. And so long he will identify that "I am this body, and because my body is American, therefore I am American," that is animal life. That is not even human life. So that is going on all over the world, identifying the body as self. "I am American, I am German, I am Englishman, I am Indian." The whole United Nation is based on this conception. So where is the unity? If you are thinking as "American" or "Indian" or "Pakistani" or "German," so where is the question of unity? But they have manufactured a false method, United Nations, by lecturing. Just like if you bring a dozen of dogs and ask them, "Live peacefully," will they live peacefully? They will bark, "Ow! Ow! Ow!" So this is going on. If you keep them as they are, dogs, how you can expect unity? So they should not remain as dogs. They should come to become human beings, then there is question of... But they want to keep them as dogs, and at the same time, they want to unite. Therefore it is unsuccessful. Is it not? Is it not unsuccessful?
Dr. Gerson: I couldn't hear.
Devotees: United Nations unsuccessful.
Dr. Gerson: Oh, it is unsuccessful. Yes. I meet many people in the course of my work that are very unhappy because of the frustrations that they experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is for unhappiness. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this place, the material world, has been described as duḥkhālayam. Duḥkhālayam means the place of miseries. So how you... If the place is made for miseries, how you can make this place as full of pleasure, if God made like that? Just like if you are put into the prison house and if you want to live very comfortably, is it possible? Prison house is meant for giving you trouble so that you may be rectified, no more stealing, not to become criminal. It is meant for punishment. Similarly, this whole material world is meant for punishing these criminals who wanted to enjoy independently God's property. They are all criminals. We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: (BG 5.29) "I am the friend of all living entities." But these people, they are claiming that... The leader is claiming, "I am the friend," and he is claiming, "I am the proprietor." They are, therefore, criminal. He is not friend. Just like your president. He is not friend of the countrymen.
Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when (sic:) you become a brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ, not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: ...manufacturing so many things, United Nations, World Health Organization, and this philanthropism, but the real thing is wanting that the human life is meant for understanding God, there is no such organization. This is the only organization, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (break) ...neglectful I do not know. (break)
Devotee: I'm very happy in my new engagement. I'm finding very much success now. We have made four devotees since I have left, three days.
Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. (break) ...the definition of God according to the theologicians?
Dr. Judah: Well, there would be many different definitions of God, I suppose, in Christian theology.
Prabhupāda: Why many?
Dr. Judah: It involves various theologies...
Prabhupāda: There is no summary?
Dr. Judah: No. There is no actual statement of any one person or any concept concerning God that would be accepted by all Christians. There are various theologies about God, as I said.
Prabhupāda: No, theologists, some of the prominent theologist, what do they say? How they describe God?
Dr. Judah: Well, it depends upon whether one is a Lutheran or a Calvinist or...
Prabhupāda: Let any one of them say something, I want to hear.
Prabhupāda: Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate. This is the whole population. They do not know... There are big, big nation, big, big philosopher, big, big scientists and all very big, but what kind of life they should live, they do not know. What is the accurate destination of our life, that they do not know. And all humbug, big, big scientist, philosopher, theologist, and so on, so on, politician, sociologist, welfare. But real thing, they are rascal. They do not know which way we have to go. So what is the use of these big, big words? They do not know which way to go. Suppose we are walking. If we go to the this side without knowing that "This is water; we should not go," then what is the use? That is their defect. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā. Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro (BG 16.7). (chuckles) Śaucam, cleanliness, they do not know, neither behavior. Nāpi cācāro. Jagad āhur anīśvaram; (BG 16.8) "Oh, there is no God. It has come out out of the sand." This is the whole population. Jagad ahur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Which way we shall go? (break) Therefore we require vigorous propaganda to make these fools to understand what is the real aim of life. That should be our propaganda. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. They have simply calculated, "Now today the bank balance is now three millions dollars, and tomorrow it will be four million." Simply, they say. Idaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. And everyone is proud, "Who is greater than me? Who can understand more than me? I am very great man."
Brahmānanda: They say she is the most powerful woman in the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, very powerful. Now she is going to hell, so powerful. She is so powerful, now she is going to hell.
Kāśīrāma: The United Nations has declared this year International Woman's Year so that all the women can gain more liberation from the bondage of being under the supremacy of man.
Prabhupāda: But how to get liberation, not being pregnant?
Kāśīrāma: That's one of the programs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be liberated, not being pregnant. The man will be pregnant equally. (laughter) Where is that liberation? Can they make any resolution, "Now, man has to become pregnant also equally."
Prabhupāda: Challenge that "I shall kick on the face of this rascal, and if he is God, let him punish me. If he is God, let him punish me. I am prepared. So come on in the public. I kick on his face, and let him do whatever he likes. I am prepared. If it is God, let me (him) kill me by his mantra or by his will. Then I will accept him." This is challenge, that "I shall kick on his face in public, and if he is God, let him punish me." And you are so fool that you are accepting this rascal as God? You belong to American nation, advanced. You have become so rascal? Challenge like that. He has come to cheat you, and why you are so befooled that you are being cheated? He is convicted in the court that he is a, what is called, deceiver. Yes. The court judgment is there. He is a deceiver.
Prabhupāda: After all, they are human being. Therefore we have collected some nice souls. (break) If you can go to the jungle, that is no hindrance, but let us take the opportunity of the civilized nations, preach them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). They are leading the whole civilization. If they are convinced, it will be great benefit to the human race. (break) Also my Guru Mahārāja said that "You go to the western country." If he had said that "You go to the jungle," I would have gone. (break) ...preacher, either the jungle or the city is the same. Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ na kutaścana bibhayati. One who is devotee of the Lord, he does not make any discrimination that "This is jungle and this is city." Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ (SB 6.17.28). For them, everywhere, Kṛṣṇa's property. So where Kṛṣṇa asks him to go and serve, he will go. That's all.
Kīrtanānanda: They made up a saying, "The only good Indian was a dead Indian." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...nation or... So? Dancing?
Jayatīrtha: But it says in the Declaration of Independence—this is part of it here—it says that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." So they admitted that there was God.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Jayatīrtha: The founders of the nation admitted that there was God, but now they won't admit. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...already very much attraction for this material world. That is called māyā. And when we are involved with these things, material prosperity, then we become more involved. On account of our material attachment, we are getting repetition of birth and death in different forms of life, and these attractions are making us more and more involved. māyāra vaibhava. People are becoming illusioned, "I am American. My country is so rich. I shall live here." But you cannot live. He is preparing for another body. So therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiya, jība ke karaye gadha. Anityad means we shall not be able to stay. Unnecessarily, we are becoming involved in this material world. Now, those who built up this nation, where they have gone, nobody can say. Because after this body is fallen, where he is being carried, nobody knows. He is carried by his work, fruitive activities. Therefore they do not believe next life. Finished. (break) ...gentleman, he was very well known, brother of Rabindranath Tagore. Rabindranath Tagore was poet, and he was artist, Abanindranath Tagore. In our childhood, in a meeting, he said that "Why should we bother about the next life? Let us enjoy this life."
Bhaktadāsa: ...photograph, we'd like to introduce the founder-ācārya spiritual master of the entire Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who founded this movement in 1966, coming here to America from Calcutta. Now His Divine Grace has very kindly once again come to San Francisco to lead us in this holy Rathayātrā Jagannātha cart parade. And we will ask him the questions that you have written down, and he will answer those questions, like that. So the first question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is "What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that every one of us is in some type of consciousness: "I am American," "I am Indian," and, "It is my property," "America is my property," "India is my property." But we say that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property." Kṛṣṇa is the... Kṛṣṇa, God, when we say Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. God is the original proprietor. And He is, therefore, the supreme enjoyer, and He is everyone's friend. If we understand these three things, then we become peaceful. If all the nations in the United Nations assembly accept that everything belongs to God, then their quarrel between one nation to another nation immediately stops. But present fighting is that two hundred years ago the Americans were mostly in Europe. Now they have migrated and claiming America is theirs. So we think always that "All land belongs to God." Just like this big ocean. Who has created this ocean? Man has not created. Therefore, if God has created, then God is the proprietor. Take land, water. These are the material elements. Who has created such vast sky? That is also material. So we think in that way and try to find out the answer from authoritative sources. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: The thing is that any system you take, without God consciousness it is zero. Just like hundreds and thousands of zeros, if you put together, the value is zero. But if you put one, the value increases immediately. That one is God. So either in politics or in sociology or philosophy, religion, everywhere, if there is no God sense, it is all zero. That is going on. Therefore, despite all advancement of education, economic development, people are in chaotic condition, they are not satisfied, and everything is being tried to make it very nice. The United Nation is there, working for the last thirty years, but there is no solution because it is all zero without God. Bring God and everything will be nice. Take any question, just like economic question. There is now very acute, especially in our country. Now, the God says that "Your economic problem will be solved like this." What is that? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "Then both the animals and man will sufficiently eat, and they will be satisfied." What is the wrong there? You must have sufficient food. Then annād bhavanti bhūtāni. And anna, producing anna, you require cloud in the sky. And that is produced by yajña. So one after another. So people must be satisfied first of all by eating sumptuously. So instead of producing food grains, you are very much busy for producing motor tires. So motor tire will not make the hungry people satisfied. So everything is there, practical, whatever is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Then why he has become man? Why not animal? Therefore the śāstra says, "One who is engaged in these animal activities, he is animal. He is not man." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ (SB 10.84.13). Actually, man is doing like that. In the jungle the similar animals, they flock together. This nationalism is like that. It is nothing better than that. So our defending, that "We are Americans," "We are Indians," "We are Germans"—the same thing. Because they are animals, they have this United Nations. The animals will fight, so they are trying to compromise, "Let us live peacefully." That is not possible because they are animals, all failure. (break)
Paramahaṁsa: Under the threat of nuclear warfare wouldn't Kṛṣṇa consciousness be more easy to spread?
Prabhupāda: No, threat is already there. But they are so fool that they are not afraid of the threat. Threat is already there. Everyone will die. That is the problem. So who is caring for this? They are avoiding this. They cannot take any anti measures.
Prabhupāda: It is not duty? This is the main duty. This is the main duty. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66). We have taken responsibility for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are doing. Why we are traveling all over the world thrice in a year? We have taken the responsibility. Otherwise, who is, an old man, he'll take such responsibility? That is a greater responsibility. When you become a big officer of the government, it means you overburdened with responsibility, not this flickering resp... Here the material respons... means it has no use. You are simply wasting time. And here is real responsibility and real life. That I explained to that lady, that "Even if you take respons... what can you do? You cannot do anything." The example I gave, that "You have taken responsibility for your son's disease. He is suffering. You have brought good physician, you have brought good medicine, everything, but what can you do? In spite of your all responsibility, your son dies. Then where is the value of your responsibility?" Do you think simply by bringing a nice physician and nice medicine you can save your son? Then where is your responsibility? Actually you cannot do anything, so what is the use of saying that "I am responsible"? You cannot do anything. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If one blind man says, "I'll take responsibility. You all blind men follow me," so what is the use of this responsibility? He will die and others will die. So what is the meaning of this responsibility? Even if you take as very responsible man, you cannot do anything. That is not possible. You cannot save. Who wants that "My son dies, my father dies, and I'll take them and..."? But one little disease will finish your responsibi... Every nation is taken, all the leaders, and as soon as there is war, thousands and thousands will be killed. What responsibility? As soon as one atom bomb is dropped, then is many thousand will be finished. Then what is your responsibility? You cannot give. You can make a statue: "These soldiers died. These soldiers died." That's all. But you could not save them from death.
Prabhupāda: You go on making progress but you will never come to the ultimate goal. You can go on foolishly. That's all right. Just like they made progress, United Nations. What progress they have made?
Harikeśa: They made a nice building.
Prabhupāda: That's right. (laughs) There are so many buildings.
Indian man (1): But they've been going to be assassinated.
Prabhupāda: When I go that building, United Nations, I see how they are wasting money. Yes, I see.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a very big budget, United Nations, billions of...
Prabhupāda: Big, big. So many publications, so many big...
Indian man (1): They make everybody un-united.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Disunited.
Guest (1) (Indian man): Are you striving for peace in the world? Is it one of your goals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is trying for peace in the world. I have already referred to the United Nations organization. They are also trying peace of the world. But one must know the right way how to bring peace in the world. So our proposition is that if you keep the human being as good as animal, then how there can be peace? There cannot be any peace among animal society. (aside:) Aiye. Let him... Jaya. This is our proposal. So we are bringing these Europeans, Americans, Africans, Canadians, Australians to this platform of understanding, that "We are human being; we are not animals." The... First I have already explained. So long we shall remain in the bodily concept of life, then we remain animal.
Guest (3) (Indian man): Have you any program for the common people?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Common people have joined. Everyone. We are opening centers so that any common man from any caste, any creed, any nation, they can come and join.
Guest (2): My friend, perhaps you would like to do... I know you are doing some social work for...
Prabhupāda: This is the best social work. We are making animal into man. Already I have begun this, that because they are not educated how to become human being, so they remain animals. So this is the best social work, that we are bringing animals, two-legged animals, to real human being. If a human being is not properly educated, he remains an animal. So this is the proper education. Therefore we are bringing animals to human being.
Prabhupāda: Britishers were advertising outside India that "Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don't object." Because United Nations, they were asking, "Why you are occupying India?" So they used to forward this argument, that "These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized." (laughter) Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would suppress: big businesses, this mining... They would suppress. This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father-in-law started that... He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping, not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would supress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield.
Prabhupāda: Eh? That... That must be. They will be suffering more and more. They will be beggars. They have done so much sinful activities for expanding their empire. Now they will have to become beggars. And within two hundred years, everything finished. They started their exploitation from seventeenth, eighteenth century. And in the twentieth century, everything finished. The French people and the English people... This is also one of the examples. Both the nations came here to exploit. That was the competition in... The French people and the English people, they would go for colonization, fight, and establi... America was also that, Canada, everywhere. But because they were their own men, they were given dominion status. Almost free.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Greedy. Very greedy.
Brahmānanda: At one time all of Africa was controlled by the European nations. Completely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mainly these French and...
Brahmānanda: French, British, Germans, Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In South Africa, the British also tried to take over South Africa. There was a war called the Boer War.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: (BG 7.23) "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." So does this mean that these less intelligent people who are simply interested in temporary benefit... Even they don't worship demigods per se, it could be anyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods... Yes. Just like one who is trying to get some good service. So they are worshiping this boss, that boss. That is also demigod, because without flattering some boss he cannot get some good job; without flattering the voters he cannot get the ministership. That is demigod worship. They have to flatter somebody. Why this Ram Gulab has gone to...? He has to flatter there. This is going on. The big bosses in the United Nation, they are demigods, supposed to be. He thinks, "If I flatter them, then I will be able to keep my position." But he does not think that this position will be lost after some years. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. He has forgotten his eternal life, Kṛṣṇa, and he is flattering these demigods. That's all. What he will gain? He will die. That's all. At the time of death what these United Nation leaders will do?
Cyavana: But we can improve the standard for future generations, for our children.
Prabhupāda: First of all you improve your own condition; then think of future generation. You are going to hell and thinking of future generation. You are going to die, and you are thinking of future generation. Who is your future generation? That is another foolishness. This is asuric civilization. Asuric civilization.
Prabhupāda: They were obliged to do that. In the country there is no food, no shelter, nothing. Therefore Hitler's determination was, "I shall make this shopkeeper nation again fishers." What is called? Fishermen. "I shall ruin their empire." So he did it. But he also became ruined. He did it. He ruined the Englishmen, but he also became ruined, finished, Germany finished. But Germany will be able to rise again. Englishmen will not be able to.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is that, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: They committed so many sinful activities, yes, for maintaining their empire. To sell their Manchester-made cloth they ruined the cloth industry of India and cut this finger.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cut the thumb off.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thumbs of the weavers so that they cannot manufacture anymore.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nations. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value?
Harikeśa: Whenever there is some war they send some observers.
Prabhupāda: That is cats and watchdog. That's all, watchdog. (laughter) That's all, civilization of cats and dogs.
Brahmānanda: City Hall is also there. United Nations has offices in that big building. They study the environment. It's environmental study.
Prabhupāda: That is another scheme. For the last thirty, forty years they could not study. "In future, we shall be happy."
Indian: Monday, president, he was addressing that Kaiser(?) affair in the next park. So there was even one helicopter. So they came to throw off flowers on him in the gathering. But suddenly the helicopter fell down there on the train. There was train was going on.
Brahmānanda: No, it was a jet plane.
Cyavana(?): It was a jet. Yes, one of the jets fell down.
Brahmānanda: They had the air force here. They have four jet planes.
Cyavana: Fighter jets.
Brahmānanda: Fighter jets, four of them only. And during the national celebration they fly in procession. So one of them fell down, killing the pilots.
Prahupada: Just see.
Brahmānanda: This is going on in the United Nations now.
Prabhupāda: It will go because they are all thieves. When the stolen property is to be divided, there will be fight.
Cyavana: Like a band of pirates. They always fight amongst themselves and kill each other.
Prabhupāda: That is natural. When they plunder, they are united, and when they share, there will be fight. This is psychology. When plundering others' property they will unite and take the whole thing, and then, when they come for sharing, there will be fight. This is the psychology everywhere. Therefore there are so many parties. Just like in India the... Of course, Congress Party was the predominant to fight with the Britishers. And as soon as they got independence, so many hundred thousand parties grew up: the Congress Party, the RSS party, the Hindu-mazara(?) party, the Muslim League party, this party, this party. And then they began to fight. This is the way. Senayor eva sa ucyate. All these thieves and rascal, rogues... God's property, why you should fight amongst themselves? Property belongs to somebody else. Insanity. Just like this is government park. Anyone can come in. Everyone can equally enjoy.
Prabhupāda: That is the first education, first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, beginning of Bhagavad-gītā-dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Unless one understands that "There is change of body and I am spirit soul within this body," he remains a cat and dog, and that's all. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So we are keeping this civilization—animals. How there can be peace? You cannot make several dogs, bring them together as nation, and they will live peacefully. It is not possible that "You all dogs come here and feel nationally and be peaceful." Will the dogs will be able to do that? Because you are dog, it is not possible.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) They fight among themselves for nothing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are keeping them cats and dogs by education, culture, and they want to be happy. How it is possible? First of all let them come to the standard of human being. Then there is question of peace and happiness. They are kept as cats and dogs, and how there can be peace? You cannot make any peace in the dog society. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that consciousness can come only when one is spiritually educated. If he is simply engaged for satisfying the senses, material, then he remains a cat and dog. You cannot expect any peace.
Prabhupāda: What are these? Apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. It has no value. But people are enamored by these things, "I belong to great nation. I am American. We have got so many industries. We have got so many cars." Attachment. So it is very difficult. Sarvo-padhi-vinirmuktam. One, after becoming completely freed from all these false designations, to become a devotee is very, very difficult. There is no education.
Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means center is Kṛṣṇa. The elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśoda, their friends, their..., they are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are attracted to Kṛṣṇa, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The cows, calves, animals and peacock—everyone is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The water is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: They are roguish fellows. Just like Nixon. What did he do? Was it in the place of king?
Prabhupāda: No, no, he... Nixon, Nixon...
Dr. Patel: Most powerful nation of the world having a leader of the type of Nixon.
Prabhupāda: So that is... Of course, in American constitution the president is also impeached. Is it the law?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: This is the first president who was impeached, during all the times.
Prabhupāda: But that is not very good law. That is not very good law. If the president also can be impeached, that is not very good law.
Dr. Patel: Sir, if the government is made according to the rule and regulations established by our religions, then that president or the king is above law. Otherwise these fools must be within law. But the way they have been ruling the countries and ransacking the people's morals and material...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone, anyone who is within law, he cannot be president.
Dr. Patel: But that man was caught from America giving away secret to the Russians. He was electrocuted, no? The science does not belong to a single race or a nation.
Prabhupāda: No, more scientists were there in Germany.
Dr. Patel: They say Germany could produce more scientists because they had all our, our Vedas and all our secret ancient books with them, the Sanskrit. They had read them.
Prabhupāda: That is also fact.
Prabhupāda: ...one is animal. So animal means ferocious. Dharmeṇa yena pasave samānaḥ. They're as good as animal. You cannot expect any good behavior from animals. This is going on. They want to keep the whole population animal, and they're making big, big plans-United Nations, this, that.
Dr. Patel: This is a problem. It's committed from the poor nations of the world, this United Nations.
Prabhupāda: There is no education for making people a human being.
Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hagel and Engels and those people have got this nonsensical idea that interaction of matter itself produces what we call consciousness. It is not the consciousness which I mean agrees with the matter. The very first basis on which this rascaldom is, I mean the basis is this: revolting against the tenets of Hindu teaching. No?
Prabhupāda: Hindu-Muslim teaching...
Dr. Patel: No, I mean sanātana dharma of this country.
Prabhupāda: Sanātana dharma, there is no teaching; it is already there.
Prabhupāda: Healthy, he's quite healthy. (Hindi conversation with other man) We repeat simply Kṛṣṇa's statement. That is our... Our mission is "Kṛṣṇa's standard"—yare dekha tare kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Don't manufacture, rascaldom. Simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. And it is simple. And as soon as you try to manufacture, it becomes difficult. How Caitanya Mahāprabhu has made things so easy.
- amara ajnaya guru haya tare ei deśa
yare dekha, tare kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa
That's all. How simple it is. You, every one of us, we take this missionary activities of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we see immediately the face of the country will change. Every gentleman, every sane man, may speak to his family, to his community, to his nation, to his friend, what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then see the result. But they're all manufacturing, concocting. Becoming big scholars. The more you deviate from Kṛṣṇa's instructions, you become a scholar.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi aside to someone) Sir, then, sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhakti labhate parām. In your, I mean... That is the highest...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can say when you are yourself brahma bhūta (SB 4.30.20). But if you are not brahma bhuta, that is not possible. They are trying to unite everyone in the United Nations, all cats and dogs. They are simply barking. There is no possibility of unity. That is not possible. They'll simply go on barking. And it is an association of dogs barking. That's all. So if you keep them dogs, there is no question of unity. If you bring them to brahman consciousness, aha brahmāsmi, then there will be unity.
| Page Title: | Nation (Conv. 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 12 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=163, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 163 |