Prabhupāda: Demonic nature means they do not believe in God. "Oh, what nonsense, God. I am God." Although he's a dog, he thinks himself, "I am God." That is demonic nature. He is being kicked every minute by the laws of nature, and still, he is superficially thinking that "I am God." God is not so cheap, but they have made to become God is very cheap. If you pay thirty-five dollars to a person, he'll give you a mantra and you become within six months God. This is very nice statement and people will follow. Thousands and thousands will follow. But if you say, "Oh, you have to undergo much austerity, penance, regulation and tapasya," "Oh, this is botheration. We shall enjoy material life, and the same time become God." So these cheap things are exhibited by the demons. And when a demon is born, the natural disturbances are there. When there are natural disturbances, we must know that there is some demonic principle. That is stated in all Vedic scriptures.
Material life (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Nice if she does not marry, that's nice. Anyone who has got children, he should not marry, I think so. Because marriage means not for sense gratification. Putrāyate kriyate bhāryā, putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. To get nice son, that is the idea of marriage. Not for sense gratification. Those who are after sense gratification, according to Vedic scripture, they are, I mean to say, recommended to go to the prostitute. Therefore in Hindu society, still, there is a prostitute class. They are allowed... They do not allow it within the society. I mean to say, extravagant sex life. Especially spiritual life. Spiritual life means gradually forget sex life. Material life means sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex life because there is no birth, there is no death. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Although the women are very, very beautiful, many thousand times more beautiful than here... Their stature of body, their everything, youthfulness, everything. But still they are so much engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in chanting the glories, that they are not, I mean to say, influenced by the lust. That is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, in the Vaikuṇṭha. There are women.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Self-preservation. So self-preservation... They do not know what is self-preservation. That is another ignorance. They consider this body as the self. Their self-preservation means to keep this body. And that is also not possible. If you do not follow regulative principles, it is not possible to keep your body in good condition. That is also not possible. Those who do not follow the regulative principles, mostly they are diseased, some kind. We find in the medical, modern medical shop the customers are educated people. Mass of people, they are not customers in the medical shop. You'll find it. They are not so much diseased. In every gentleman's house, modern, you'll find so many bottles of medicine. But you won't find such medical bottles in any house of less educated persons. They are not so diseased. So this is one of the items. If you want to advance in spiritual life you must follow the regulative principles to rectify your mistakes in the past life and this present life. Without being freed from all contamination nobody can understand God. That is not possible. Bhagavad-gītā says, yeṣāṁ anta gataṁ pāpaṁ: "One who has become completely freed from all kinds of sinful reaction," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, "Persons who are engaged in pious activities only," te, "such person," te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā... (BG 7.28). This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva and moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion.
Prabhupāda: They are sincere, sincerely seeking after. Their material business is finished because they have enjoyed enough of material things. Now there is spiritual inquiry. That is natural. When our material necessities are complete, we enjoy, then next stage is spiritual hankering. And that is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. After finishing karma-kāṇḍīya life... Karma-kāṇḍīya life means you do pious activities and enjoy life. That is called karma-kāṇḍīya. So... But the fact is that even you get your birth in a very rich family, you cannot avoid the sufferings of this material nature. Just like yesterday we had an interview with Holkar(?), His Highness Holkar, the old gentleman. So he was a king. He has got very beautiful wife, very beautiful family, very palatial building, but he is not happy, we saw. So the foolish people, they do not know that in this material life there is no happiness. They hanker after these palatial buildings, the motor cars, the bank balance, and so on, so on. Therefore those who have enjoyed all these things but have not become happy, there is another inquiry: "How to become happy?" (break) ...say America, they have enjoyed material life. Their children have enjoyed material life to the fullest extent but they are not happy. Therefore they have come to this spiritual life.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): Authority...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose if you want to go to Germany. Now you have no idea how the German people live or their, how they are, what is their culture. So you have to learn. Here is a boy, German. You have to learn from him what kind of life there is. Similarly, there is a life like that. Now, what kind of life that is, we have to ask from a person who has realized that life.
Guest (1): There are two things. I am still, I'm still... that we are raised upon this material life (indistinct) that may be available just like air. Air we do not keep the air under lock and key. There is no dearth of time, no dearth of energy, no dearth of resources. Only dearth is that we have no clear perspective (indistinct) we are under control. (indistinct) in the only because of our other and therefore we have become confused. So from Buddha's time we wanted there should be no sickness, old age, and death, etc. But it is continuing. There is no such country...
Prabhupāda: But how do you respect these words of Lord Buddha, first thing is.
Guest (1): No, I have got one thing, you see, that it is through the diffusion...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Lord Buddha, we have to accept him as an authority, Lord Buddha. Now, he gives you idea that no misery. So how do you accept these words of Lord Buddha?
Guest (1): No, I do not because that was not..., has not come into...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he was giving that hint in spiritual life, not in this life.
Prabhupāda: The thing is... I have alre...
Prof. Kotovsky: In the sorts of day to day life...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: Material life...
Prabhupāda: Now, material life, it is...
Prof. Kotovsky: Would he be paid to stay in that center?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master.
Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has told us that even in the spiritual world there is desire to have the senses enjoy. Isn't that so?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Weir: But I think you need, I agree, I would say you need both. I want spiritual life, material life.
Mensa Member: (indistinct) spiritual thing, I mean, isn't it (indistinct) we're talking about China or New York (indistinct) about it, in fact it might even be a little (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: Well, I think to each person his picture is different too.
Śyāmasundara: The idea there is that in spiritual activity everything is seen in relationship to God and if you serve God with your every activity...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example, just like this finger is part and parcel of body. So long it is attached with the body there's not activities. You cut it from my body, there's no activity.
Dr. Weir: Yes, but you've still got a body.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Weir: You've still got a body and you've still got some other fingers left.
Prabhupāda: No you can call it a finger, but it will not act as finger, it will act (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: No, but the others will. I don't see the need for your analogy.
Śyāmasundara: The God is there and we are His servants.
Prabhupāda: If you are part and parcel of God then we must be active in serving God. That is my analogy.
Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma.
Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body... Suppose I want to scratch here, a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.
Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swamiji, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?
Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take..., just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.
Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the definition of bhakti. Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ, that is bhakti. Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king, if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he has to have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?
Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from this material bondage. And there are different attachments for this material enjoyment, out of which sex life is the source of topmost enjoyment. The Bhāgavata says that this material world... Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam (SB 5.5.8). Means that a man is attached to woman and woman is attached to man. Not only human society, in animal society also. That attachment is the basic principle of material life. So, a woman is hankering or seeking after the association of a man, and a man is hankering or seeking the association of a woman. Just like we see the, all the fictions, novels, dramas, this cinema, or even ordinary advertisement, simply they depict the attachment between man and woman. Even in tailor's shop you'll find on the window some woman, some man. (break) So this attachment is already there.
Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life... It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that
- puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ
- tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ
- ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair
- janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti
- (SB 5.5.8)
It is said that this is the basic principle of material life: attachment for man or woman. And when they are united, when a man and a woman is united, that attachment becomes increased. And that increased attachment will induce him for gṛha, means home; kṣetra, means land; suta, means children; āpta, friendship, or society; and vitta, vitta means money. In this way, gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ, he becomes entangled. Janasya moho 'yam. This is the illusion. And by this illusion he becomes ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8), "I am this body, and anything in relationship with this body, that is mine."
Bob: So that is the real goal, to know God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is real goal of life. Just like the water coming from the sea as cloud falls down as rain and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again go to the sea. So we have come from God. Now we are embarrassed in this material life. Therefore the aim should be how to get out of this embarrassment and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is real goal of life.
- mām upetya tu kaunteya
- duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
- nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
- saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
- (BG 8.15)
That is the version of Bhagavad-gītā. "If anyone comes back to Me," mām upetya kaunteya... Mām upetya tu kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti, "he does not come back again." Where? In this place, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This place is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but he has become fooled, befooled by so-called leaders. This is miserable life, material life. So duḥkhālayam... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that this place is duḥkhālayam, it is a place of miseries. And that also aśāśvatam. You cannot make a compromise, "All right, let it be miserable. I shall remain as American or Indian." No. That you also cannot do. You cannot remain as American. You may think that you are born in America, you are very happy. But you cannot remain as American for long. You'll have to be kicked out of the place, and next life you do not know. Therefore it is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That is our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to become a devotee?
Bob: For myself... It is... I don't feel so much the desire. I have... First the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, means giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have...
Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material life? I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual?
Bob: Material.
Prabhupāda: Then how we give up material life?
Bob: I think how I interpreted it was a desire for material gains.
Prabhupāda: That is material life.
Bob: You're working towards material gains, not giving up all material.
Prabhupāda: Material life means when you desire to gratify your senses, that is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. Instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others' activities? We are using everything: table, chair, bed, this tape recorder, typewriter. So what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to.
Prabhupāda: No, because... You have got... You have surrendered to your spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don't like, you have to do it. To please me. Even you don't like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says, "Today is fasting," so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (Loudspeaker in background is very loud.)
Śyāmasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don't want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they're forced to austerities.
Prabhupāda: That is forced austerity; that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help.
Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) ...if you don't undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo...
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity. But man can accept austerity. That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner's shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money. So he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore, animal cannot undergo austerity. (Someone else speaks inaudibly about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. (break) Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and Kṛṣṇa sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That's all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities? Chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? (indistinct) I see austerity, call my mother.
Prabhupāda: So they left their luxuriant residence as ministers. But when they went to Vṛndāvana, they had a cottage.
Devotee (1): I think the impulse is more or less a reaction to their alienation for material life. They feel so alienated from artificial material life that they think maybe, that simply more..., they think animalistic would be more desirable.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The inclination may be right, but the spiritual education is lacking. They don't have the teacher.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: Education.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect of modern education.
John Fahey: Well, they go to college, and so this is where the idea started. It got bigger and bigger and bigger, and now it's out of control. (laughs) It's terrible. It's all-pervasive. (indistinct) I don't kill animals.
Devotee: Vegetarian?
John Fahey: Now, yeah.
Devotee: He's vegetarian.
Prabhupāda: Well vegetarians are not animals. (laughter) In India, you'll still you'll find ninety-percent of the population, they're vegetarians, strictly. Always vegetarians. They're quite healthy, they're working. Therefore vegetarians are human beings. Vegetables, that food is meant for human beings. That is natural. For a human being to become nonvegetarian is unnatural. And to become vegetarian, that is natural. Just like our teeth, it is meant for cutting vegetables, fruit, not meat. You will find cutting by these teeth, meat, it will be difficult. But you take any vegetable, any fruit, you can immediately cut. Our medical laws says that anything eatable which you cannot cut with the teeth and smash it properly, it will not be digested.
Devotee: A few minutes, I think, 'cause they are still packing.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of these religions have produced a sannyāsī.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of them. A person who is detatched from material life.
Jayādvaita: I was reading in the Bible...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I refused this Bhāgavata reader. He wants to come here, and no, we don't want these professional men. We want men who have sacrificed their life for God. We want such men, not professional. The so-called priests, they are professional. They are earning money. That's all. Just see, they, how the karmīs are earning money by their business, and it has become a business. Everywhere, religion has become a business.
Devotee: They perform some charity, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: They just perform some char...
Prabhupāda: What charity they can do? We also, a "loophole," that's all. We are making charity.
Prabhupāda: So we are giving a message by which everyone can be happy in this life and next life also. Generally all religious sects they do not believe in the next life. Or even they believe they have no clear idea of the next life.
Frenchman: What is the present hope of the human society even beyond death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Human society is... Human life is an opportunity to stop all the problems of material life. So if he does not do so, if he does not understand or take to this business how to solve all the problems of life, then he's missing the opportunity. We are giving very nice idea what is next life, how we can elevate to the topmost spiritual planet, how we can live eternally, peacefully, with full knowledge. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for all these purpose.
Frenchman: In society, the consumer society, (indistinct) miseries, what is the message you can bring people even in this day?
Prabhupāda: Yes. By accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they will be moralists, they will be religionists, they will be first-class (indistinct), first-class politician, everything perfect by accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Scholar: But we think in the present day, Indonesia's, we think about harmonizing spiritual and material aspects of life, this our...
Prabhupāda: No. No. Harmonize means... First of all you must know what is harmonization. Harmonization means that this material life means bodily concept of life. This is material life. "I am this body." Generally people think like that: "I am Indonesian." "I am American." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." And they take care of the country where he's born. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijyadhīḥ, but this conception, bodily conception of life, has made the whole human society like cats and dogs. "It is my land. It is my..." Just like a dog. As soon as another dog comes. "Bark, bark, bark, bark. Why you have come here? Why you have come here." So this, this kind of harmonization is dog civilization.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still, there are plants and all the living entities in the Vaikuṇṭha...
Prabhupāda: They know. Because they have full knowledge, "He knows here is God. Although he is four-handed, I am four-handed, but here is God." Because there is full knowledge. That is the difference. Here we are selecting some rascal as God, because we have no full knowledge. There, in the Vaikuṇṭha planets, although the common citizens and God is of the same feature of the bodily, but they know, "Here is God, the Supreme." He has got special signs in the... Yes, that's all. Just like the king or the president, we may make mistake. We may accept somebody as "Here is president." No. But the associates of the president, he knows. They know that "Here is president." Similarly, there is no question of mistake there. Four kinds of defects of material life—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat, and imperfection of the senses—these things are not there. Everyone's senses are perfect. When he sees God, he sees perfectly. He does not mistake. He is not illusioned. And there is no cheating and there is no imperfection of the senses. There is no mistake. These are spiritual life.
Karandhara: And again falls asleep at death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once he comes to awareness and again he's unconscious. Just like this flower, it has come to now consciousness. Again it will dry and die but the seeds again will grow. Again it will dry. This is material life. And spiritual life means flower only. That's all. (pause) I have got some nice shirt buttons somebody has given me. I shall never put on shirt, neither our students. I think we shall sell it.
Devotee: Buttons?
Prabhupāda: What is called? Button, is it not button? Shirt-fixing? Collar-fixing?
Devotee: Is it a pin or something like this?
Prabhupāda: Yes, like that...gold.
Devotee: Not cuff links. No those are...
Prabhupāda: Aha, cuffles.
David Wynne: No.
Prabhupāda: That is our problem. Either you become rich man or poor man, but you have to undergo. (aside:) Make the light. There is switch. (pause) So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that "I am in the material world." Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He's good boy, realizing, he also... So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body. Sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth. Sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Because after death you'll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You'll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body. So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable conditions, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection. But people are not given that chance, the modern education, modern civilization. They've no knowledge; they do not know that there is life after death, although it is a simple fact. Just like in our present existence we have got past, present and future. Just like you are young man, you have your past. You are a child, or a boy, now that is past. Present, you are young man, and in future you are expecting to become old man. So as you have got past, present and future, similarly, I'm old man, I've got my past life, why not future? What is the reason to deny it? Past, present, future, that is the time calculation. I had my past, I've now present, and why is my future? They do not care for the future. They're so blind. There must be future. So what I'm doing for the future? Just like in this life we collect some money, keep in the bank balance so that in future, old age, I may not be in difficulty. Similarly, what a human being should do for his future life? That he does not know, although past, present, future is there. So this is foolishness. He doesn't care for the future. So one who is foolish, without any knowledge of the future, whatever he's doing is defeated—in ignorance, because it is ignorance. Just like a boy does not take education, does not think of future. That is not very good. We must be prepared for the future, his next life. Yes, where is that civilization? Where is that education, that people are thinking for future life? Is there any educational system at the present moment? So everything is being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Abodha-jāta, these rascal fools, born foolish. He does not inquire about the self-realization, so whatever he is doing, it is all defeat, he is spoiling his time, because he does not know. Ātma-tattvam, the science of self-realization. So in ignorance, whatever you do there is defeat. And they're being defeated and they're thinking "I'm victorious." This is called māyā. This is called māyā. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. We are trying to save the living entity from disastrous condition. This is the aim and mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a religious sentiment, no. It is a very scientific. And we have got so many books already printed, and many books coming. Each and every one. You have seen our books?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree about that, but you cannot...
Prabhupāda: And death is inevitable. Even if you have sufficient to eat, you cannot avoid death. So death is inevitable. That is the problem of material life. Birth, death, old age and disease. So you cannot avoid it. So long you are materially existing. This can be avoided when you are spiritually elevated. That is our movement.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, you cannot live without... You do not, as we say, live by bread alone. And in that sense—it may be the sense in which you wish me to take—the sense, what you are saying, that God supplies bread, because bread could be both bread for the spirit or soul...
Prabhupāda: No, bread is material. Bread is material. To maintain your material body, you require material bread. But spiritual body does not depend on material bread.
Mr. Wadell: Could we go back to the relationship between you or all of us and God? What my own experience has suggested to me is that the language which I use and the language which has been used by others to describe what we think Him to be is not really capable of accomplishing this very difficult task. It is an impossible task in fact because we are describing something which is so immeasurably greater, more difficult to understand fully. We can have a relationship, but I find it, the language which we use, is of...
Prabhupāda: Insufficient.
Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha-yātrā is rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. (Hindi) (break)
Guest (1): I think the article they got in a straight weekly mag... (indistinct) envy our national character. You know, there's envy, a lot of envy. If you are successful, or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous.
Prabhupāda: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you.
Guest (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat-praṇītam: (SB 6.3.19) "Religion is given by God." (Hindi) sarva-dharmān parityajya, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So this is religion. (Hindi) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). This is religion. That is first-class religion, which teaches bhakti. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja. Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to "kṣa", whatever experience we have got... Or akṣa means eyes, senses.
Father Tanner: But you can be physically healthy...
Prabhupāda: Spiritually, when you get your spiritual body, there is no such material inconveniences. The material inconveniences means so long you have got this material body, you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. When you revive your spiritual body, these four things are not with you. No more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more old age. This is the difference between spiritual life and material life.
Father Tanner: Yes, I mean, this, I think, anyone who's in any sense spiritual or religious or ethical would admit because the spiritual body has no parts. So it cannot start to be or cease to be and cannot change within his own entity.
Prabhupāda: No, the spiritual body is there already. Just like you have got your body. The coat is made according to your body. You existed first. Your coat was made later on. Similarly, spiritually, we exist eternally. Now, according to our different types of activities, we get a body, material body. There are eight million, four hundred thousand different forms of bodies. So the spirit soul is transmigrating according to his desire and work to different types of body. This is called transmigration of the soul. ...
Father Tanner: You would hold that the spirit is eternal...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Father Tanner: Yes, but will it ever...
Prabhupāda: And so long he does not desire, he'll have to continue this material existence. So that depends on him.
Father Tanner: And could that go on and on forever, his not desiring?
Prabhupāda: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance.
Father Tanner: Now, taking that person, when material things cease, what happens to him?
Prabhupāda: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping.
Prabhupāda: Let me finish.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And I think that the vocation of each creature is the service of God, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: The service of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So when the living entity forgets this business, that is material life.
Cardinal Danielou: That is...?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (agrees in French)
Prabhupāda: Therefore in this material world we find almost everyone has forgotten God.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (agrees in French)
Prabhupāda: The conclusion is that this material world is created...
Cardinal Danielou: Created...
Prabhupāda: Created for the forgotten souls.
Prabhupāda: These are simply words. What is the spiritual life. I want to know. (break) ...is useless.
Yogeśvara: He says when God. He is just using a lot of names.
Prabhupāda: He is simply speaking. He does not know what is the aim, what is the goal, what is spiritual life... (break) ...no tangible knowledge of everything, what I ask. As I asked you what is spiritual life, he cannot describe. (break) ...distinguish between spiritual life and material life?
Yogeśvara: (break)... as we can have spiritual realization and still live in the material world.
Prabhupāda: But what is the spiritual life? What is the distinction between spiritual life and material life? What is the goal? He cannot define Spiritual life.
Yogeśvara: (break)...want to know how does a person who is realized the perfection live.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Yogeśvara: ...tolerant. Above all, he is tolerant.
Prabhupāda: Tolerant. Spiritual life. That is also spiritual life. That's all. So in their way of spiritual life, what are the process? There must be some process, definite process.
Prabhupāda: I don't find anything.
Yogeśvara: There was this gentleman this afternoon who was asking you about people who are constantly, constantly being tested by all kinds of miserable circumstances. She asks: Is it not a sign of a soul that God has chosen to favor that he sends them such miserable conditions of material life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee, in miserable condition, they accept it as a favor of God. (break) ...in the Bhāgavata:
- tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo
- bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam
- hṛd-vāg-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te
- jīveta yo mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk
- (SB 10.14.8)
We are put sometimes in difficult position. But a devotee takes the difficult position as mercy of God.
Yogeśvara: She, she asks you for an explanation of an event that happened to her sister. Her sister died at the age of five and a half years. And just before her death she apparently was able to explain some of her past lifetimes to her mother, that she had formerly been a princess or of noble birth and that now she was being called. Is there some explanation for that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, she remembers of her last birth. That is quite possible. Because we are changing body. So one who can remember about his past life, they are called jāta-smaraṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is ultimate goal. So long we do not go back to home, back to Godhead, we have to, in our material existence, we have to change from one body to another. That is going on. And there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies. The cats and dogs, they are also living entities, but they have got a different type of body. Every one of us, different type body. Even they are children, their body is different from your body. Even the (indistinct). Although their body is obtained, there are some similarities. But if you analyze very scrutinizingly there will be some difference from your body, from your daughter's body, from your boy's body. So every body, every living entity is getting a certain type of body according to his desire. According to his desire. So that desire means material enjoyment. Just like you have got certain desire to become champion in racing. Another body has got desire to become something else. Another body has got desire for something else. So we have got this freedom by the grace of God or Kṛṣṇa. Because we are children. He has given freedom. "All right, if you want this, take it." In this way our life is going on. This is called birth and death. One chapter you are finishing in one life, next chapter begins another life. Next chapter begins another life. So the problem is birth and death. But nobody wants birth and death. Nobody wants. But it is there on account of our material life. So in material life there are four problems: birth, death, old age, and disease. So long one has to accept a material body, he has to accept these miseries also. Birth is also misery. When the child remains within the womb, in a compact bag... Very precarious condition. We have forgotten, but it is very precarious condition. And for ten months, because he is unconscious at least for seven months he cannot understand. But after seven months when the child becomes conscious, it is very intolerable. He always prays, "Oh, how to get out, how to get out." Then he gets, come out, comes out. Then another life begins.
Prabhupāda: All these things are, they are simply māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). "These rascals, they are working so hard, making gorgeous arrangement. For what? For illusory sense gratification." That sense gratification is also false. Real sense gratification is in Kṛṣṇa and kṛṣṇa-dhāma. Hlādinī, sandhinī, saṁvit. Perverted in this material life. Āhlāda-tapa-kārī miśrayate tair na guṇa-varjite (?). Here āhlāda, pleasure and tapa-kārī, pain, and mixture of āhlāda. This is the position. Tair na guṇa-varjite (?). This kind of pleasure is not in Kṛṣṇa, guṇa-varjite, because He is free from the material condition. So anyway, the human life is only meant for... This is our mission, to teach that "You are simply wasting your time. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is his only business. And next business is, those who cannot directly take to, then those, they should be helping this movement. Therefore we go door-to-door, to connect them, to be linked up with this movement, life member, this member, that member... They are misunderstanding, "They have no other good business. Transcendental fraud, giving us some book and taking money and eating and sleeping. They have got..." They are thinking like that.
Karandhara: One man, Dr. Wyberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying, "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much...
Prabhupāda: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham (SB 7.9.45). Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only aim. Yan maithunādi. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing. The position of the sex, the... How nasty it is! Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasa-tīrtham. Vāyasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy... (break) gṛham andha-kūpam, ātma-pātam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhāgavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). Therefore in the Vedic system first brahmacārī, become brahmacārī. Learn how to avoid sex, celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then how to continue the species?
Prabhupāda: Why you will continue? You finish it, this condemned world, where you are simply suffering. Why should you continue it?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is the laws of nature.
Prof. Wolfe: That is why nobody wants to change anything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Prof. Wolfe: No real reform.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prof. Wolfe: Because they all want to go on cheating.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You see? That is the qualification of conditioned soul: To become a cheater, and to become cheated. This is the condition. To become a cheater is one of the conditions of material life. The four defects: He must commit mistake, he must be illusioned, and he must cheat, and his senses are imperfect. These are the four qualifications of the materialistic person.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also one of the qualities of bondage?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bondage?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are... Because they are, they have been bound up by the laws of nature, so these qualities they have developed.
Karandhara: Darkness has no separate existence.
Prabhupāda: Darkness means absence of light. That is darkness. It is the negation of light. Similarly, material life means forgetfulness of God. That's all... What is our spiritual life? We are simply trying to revive our understanding of God. That is spiritual life. And when you perfectly revive, that is spiritual. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...whatever you do, that is your defeat. Because you cannot see things in the proper perspective, therefore in darkness or in ignorance, whatever you do, that is your defeat. Therefore we see that so much advancement of education, civilization, but everything is defeat. Nobody's satisfied. Because it is defeat. It is not progress. It is defeat.
Bali Mardana: We have to be led by someone who can see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, if you led by another blind man, what is your benefit? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And our thankless task is... Just like a blind man going, falling into the ditch, we say, "No, no. Don't go there. You'll fall down." But he becomes angry, "Why you are instructing me?" That is our thankless task. We have to do it. How we can see that this blind man is going...? He'll immediately fall and die. How we can remain silent? We must have to say. That is our business, that "For want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are going to die. Take it. Be saved." But they do not like it.
Prabhupāda: Too much, yes. Luxury leads to poverty. Too much luxury. Now it will deteriorate.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: I was reading in one of the books you translated that you said that as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, the mentality of all of the people in that area, they lose their desires for material enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: No. Material enjoyment, you enjoy, but not like cats and dogs. You enjoy material life like human being. That is our proposal. Not like cats and dogs. Is it not enjoyment when you sit down in the Deity room and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read philosophy? It is not enjoyment?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, it is very nice.
Prabhupāda: So this is human enjoyment. And to go to the brothel and drink and fight and talk all nonsense, is that enjoyment?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.
Prabhupāda: That is cats' and dogs' enjoyment. We must enjoy like human being. Enjoyment is not denied. Why should we deny?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, but as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will more of a desire to live simply.
Prabhupāda: That is good for them. That is good for them. Because at the present moment they are missing the aim of life. That is the defect. They do not know what is the goal of life. They are thinking, "We are also cats and dogs." And that is the defect of the modern civilization. Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise this āhāra-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense. (pause) So defense automatically, the small birds are taking. See. They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately, they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. (laughter) They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prajāpati: This is the first time we've gone this direction, everything looks different, looks like a total different place.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is material life. We are rounding sometimes this way, sometimes that way, and we are thinking "new." (devotees laugh) Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona (CC Madhya 19.151). In this way you are wandering all over the universe. Find out something new. But there is nothing new. Everything is old. (break) ...a living entity is offered change of the body. You see? When he becomes fatigued of this life, "It's so troublesome"—old men generally think like that. So he has to change another, another new body, child. Since born he is taken care, he thinks "Now, I have got so comfortable life." And again becomes old, disgusted, so he cannot live disgusting, therefore Kṛṣṇa is so kind: "All right, change body again." Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. The business is the same, but changing body gives some relief. Just like these men, the business is they're wasting time by changing, wasting time at home, come to the golf club. That's all. The business is the same—wasting time, either here or there. Kṛṣṇa is giving so much facilities. Sometimes, "All right, you become tree." "All right, some, become a serpent," "All right, you become a demigod," "All right, you become a human being," "All right, you become king," "You become a cobbler," "You go to the heavenly planets," "Go to the hellish planets." Varieties is there. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He's changing varieties, atmosphere of life. But he's packed up in this material world. That freedom... He's asking for freedom, but he does not know the freedom is the shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That he'll not accept. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has arranged so many varieties. In disgust the Māyāvādīs, they want to make the varieties variety-less, nirviśeṣa. And the Buddhists they want to make it zero. But that is also not possible. Remain zero for some time. Again he will want varieties. Big, big Māyāvādī sannyāsī, they preach so much brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, but again they come to the political work, social work. Simply remain as brahma, "I am brahma," you cannot remain for many days. Then he has to accept these material varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment, so therefore our proposition is "Come to the real variety, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then your life will be successful."
Prabhupāda: When Kṛṣṇa is there, then Kṛṣṇa is there with everything. Kṛṣṇa cannot be alone.
Bahulāśva: This is the real science, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vijñāna. Yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Jñānaṁ parama-guhyaṁ me yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Is it not? Jñānaṁ me... "My knowledge is very confidential and it is full of science." Jñānaṁ parama-guhyaṁ me yad vijñāna-samanvitam. And in the Bhagavad-gītā there is said, "Knowing this knowledge..." Yaj jñātvā neha bhūyo 'nyaj jñātavyam avaśiṣyate. In the Vedas it is said, yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. So this is the way. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything will be known. (break) ...guhyaṁ pavitraṁ paramam idam. Eh? Bhagavad-gītā. Rāja-vidyā, the knowledge, the king of knowledge. (break)
Hanumān: Without your mercy, there's no way out of the dream of material life.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Yes. (pause) (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...water is tasteless, but Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste in water." Science says water is tasteless, no taste in water.
Prabhupāda: Science says.
Dr. Patel: I think this has become very wild after the Second World War.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is always there. It is always there. That is material world. Material world means that, sex life. That's all. And if you increase it, then you increase your material life more and more. Therefore the process is tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). The brahmācārya is so much stressed. Tapasā brahmacaryena. Samena damena vā, tyāgena śaucena yamena niyamena vā. This is the process of human life. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human body is not meant for working hard like pigs for sense gratification. So they have been taught to become pigs. No discrimination of sex. The pig has no discrimination. So they have been taught. Not... When it is in śāstra, that means it is from the very beginning. A class of men are like pigs and hogs there are, always. So therefore Rsabhādeva is forbidding his sons that "This human form of life is not to waste like the pigs and hogs." Then what? Tapasā. Tapo divyaṁ putrakāḥ...
Dr. Patel: Ṛṣabhadeva's hundred sons.
Indian man (1): I know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And he was earning fifty-thousand rupees at that time, fifty years ago. What is the value, just see. He was earning and spending like anything, lavishly, and he was so bad associated that wine and woman was his paraphernalia. That's all. As soon as there will be case engaged the first order is that "You have to supply so many cases of wine and so many batches of prostitute." That was C.R. Dasa's condition, first condition. In the Mopaceel(?) court when he would be invited to plead, the first condition is this. Then his fees. So in this way he was living. But he gave up. On Congress Movement he gave up everything practiced, but he died within one year. Because he was living so luxuriously, all of a sudden he became a renouncer, he could not tolerate that. He died. Within one year he died. So therefore these ministers, they gave up all this luxurious life, became a mendicant. The question is how they lived? Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna kan... Then gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtādhi-laharī-kallola-magnau sadā: They were fully absorbed in the thought of how Kṛṣṇa, and His pastimes with His gopīs. He was always absorbed. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. This is exhibition. When one becomes ecstatic, "Oh, now I have to do something for Kṛṣṇa," then he renounces everything. Only Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the test. That is the test. What is the use of spiritual advancement? Spiritual advancement means these material things given up. That is spiritual advancement. That is... The example is given, bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavoḥ viraktir anyatra syāt. As soon as one develops real bhakti, he will be averse to all these material things. That is the first sign. "No more these things." Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Just like if you are hungry and if you are given some food, if you are satisfied, then the same food will be denied by you. "No, no, no. I don't want anymore." Full satisfaction. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). When he fully became perfect and Nārāyaṇa was present before him, He asked him, "What benediction you want? You take." He said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "Simply by seeing You, by Your presence, I am fully satisfied. No more benediction. I don't want any benediction." This is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. (break) ...ca lābha-santuṣṭau. No more demand. "Whatever by Kṛṣṇa's grace comes, that's all right. And not comes, it doesn't matter." The other śloka also, nirāśī, That is bhakti. Otherwise how one can be satisfied in any condition of life unless there is bhakti? That is the test. The test is that he has got something. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. If he actually achieves Kṛṣṇa, then he does not think that anything better than this. That I see amongst these Europeans and American boys and girls. They have seen it, that "It is better than our so-called material life." Therefore they have been able to give up. Just like this boy Girirāja, he is very rich man's son.
Prabhupāda: He's a learned scholar, I know.
Dr. Patel: He had also returned (indistinct) In Nariya(?) he's supposed to be the best scholar in Sanskrit, not only a big bhakta also a Vaiṣṇava. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...there is no saptāha. (break)
Girirāja: "...is so potent that the more one advances in this line, the more he loses his attraction for material life."
Dr. Patel: People used to prostrate themselves.
Prabhupāda: All right. That is artificial.
Dr. Patel: I have read somewhere. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is not the way.
Dr. Patel: Have you read it? I have read it.
Prabhupāda: Even I do not... No. These are all nonsense.
Girirāja: "One who is actually deriving..." (break)
Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease, to become lusty. So if one actually hears from the authority rāsa-līlā, then he is no more lusty. That is the test. That is the test.
Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease, to become lusty. So if one actually hears from the authority rāsa-līlā, then he is no more lusty. That is the test. That is the test.
Dr. Patel: He becomes (indistinct) This kāma is always first everywhere. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Kāma is the basic principle of material life. That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etad: "Both men and women, they are attracted in this material world for this sex life." Mithunī-bhāvam etad. Tayor mithaḥ. They are... Now, just see in this beach. They are coming all dressed, and the man is attracting woman; woman is attracting man. This is business, going on here.
Dr. Patel: You are really... Oscar Wilde has written once...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the fact. We can see it. We can see it. That's all. Everywhere the same business. In the Western world they are becoming more and more naked. You see? Mini, miniskirt.
Dr. Patel: What they call it?
Bhāgavata: Streaking.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. What is that called, costume?
Prabhupāda: Topless. Topless.
Dr. Patel: Topless and bottomless.
Prabhupāda: These things are going on. That means they are attracted. Attracted. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etad. They'll dress. Woman will dress very nicely so that she can attract man, and man will also do something which will, he'll attract woman. Mithunī-bhāvam tayor mitha... In this way, when they are united-hṛdāya-granthim āhuḥ, a very strong knot: "Oh, you are mine. I am yours." (laughter) "You are mine. I am yours." In this way they pull on this material life. And then, gradually, "Now we must have good apartment to live and enjoy sex life." Puṁsāṁ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etad tayor mithaḥ hṛdāya-granthim āhuḥ, tathā gṛha. "Now have skyscraper building." Kṣetra: "Land. We must produce food grains." Tathā gṛha-kṣetra-suta: "We must have children."
Dr. Patel: No, but according to the Taittiriya Upaniṣad...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... This is the material life.
Dr. Patel: That's right. You are right.
Prabhupāda: This is material... Tathā gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta. Apta: friends. I must show: "Just see how I have got big house, nice wife, good bank balance. Come and see. And just glorify me, 'Oh, you are very successful. Although you are going to be dog next life.' " This is going on. Atho gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vitta janasya moho 'yam. This is illusion. This is illusion. Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti: (SB 5.5.8) "Now I am such and such big man, minister." That's all. And he's... The minister is going to be dog next life. You see? That he does not know. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmā... (BG 3.27).
Prabhupāda: Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajña. (break)
Bhagavān: ISKCON has a camera.
Yogeśvara: Should we take a picture right here? (break)
Prabhupāda: ...philosophy and the so many bogus swamis' philosophies, they are different. They offer some material benefit by their philosophy. "If you take this mantra, then your material life will be easier." People are captivated for material benefit. Spiritual benefit, they do not understand, and neither our philosophy provides any facility for material benefit. Although spiritual benefit includes material benefit, but people do not understand this.
Bhagavān: It appears that by taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one becomes less materially benefitted.
Prabhupāda: That is the benefit they do not understand. Here the philosophy is to make nil material benefit. And that is sometimes havoc for others. Niṣkiñcanasya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... (aside:) Don't bring near. Niṣkiñcanasya. Niṣkiñcana means... Kiñcana means something and niṣkiñcana means even no something. Kiñcana means something, to possess something, and niṣkiñcana means to possess nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana... So go back to home back to Godhead, is meant for such persons who has nothing to possess here. That is very difficult. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. The real aim, real benefit, is how to be transferred to the other nature, spiritual nature. Pāraṁ param. They do not know that beyond the sky, there is spiritual sky, there is another nature. They have no information. Even they do not know what are there in higher planetary systems. They think, "Here everything is..." This is an insignificant planet in the whole creation, but their fund of knowledge so poor, they think this is the position. They are trying to maintain what was achieved.
Prabhupāda: Ah, mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Mad-bhāvam, "My nature." "My nature" means spiritual nature. Kṛṣṇa is spirit. Or the another nature. This is material nature. This is another nature. That is kingdom of God, spiritual nature, Vaikuṇṭha planet. Āgatāḥ: "They came." Every information is there, every opportunity is there. Simply they are not educated. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for educating these rascals. That's all. They are mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ, mad. From the morning, as soon as they rise, "Give me a cup of tea, immediately I have to go to there and there and there." What you will do then? "Yes, I will die. I will die in a motor accident. They are waiting for me." All right, go. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). All kinds of forbidden works they are doing. What? What is the purpose? Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaye. Purpose is only sense gratification. The rascal does not know that "I am doing all these sinful activities for sense gratification, and I will have to accept a very low-grade body." That he does not know. He has already got one low-grade body. He is suffering only. And he will still get another low-grade body, more suffering. That he does not know. But still, he will do everything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti na sādhu manye: (SB 5.5.4) "Oh, it is not good." Na sādhu manye yata ātmano' yam: "This kind of activities will cover your soul by body." "Well, this body is temporary. Don't bother." Then another body, rascal. This body is temporary, but you get another body, most abominable. Why you are doing like this? Asann api. Although this body is temporary, but why don't you understand that it is kleśada: It is always subjected to miserable condition of material life. Kleśada. This is kleśada, another body you get, kleśada. Any body you get, kleśada. Why do you get this? Stop these activities. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That they do not know. Da means "that gives." Any type of material body you accept will be kleśada. They have constructed this building.
Robert Gouiran: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: I am a spirit soul. So my natural abode for living is spiritual world. So so long I am in the material world. It may be... The same example. I may be on the 747 or DC-10 or 10C-10 or this or that nonsense, I must be in anxiety. So that is the problem. And what is that material problem? Material life means you have got this material body and you do not wish to die. The anxiety on the plane is: "Because I may die..." That means you do not wish to die. That is my anxiety. If there is plane crash, then I may die. And therefore my anxiety. If I am assured that I'll not die, then where is that anxiety? The anxiety is that I do not wish to die, but death is there. So that death is there either on the plane or on the ground. You cannot avoid death. Why I cannot avoid death? Because I have got this body which is perishable. Therefore if I want to be anxietyless freely, I must try for that thing by which I do not get again a body like this. Then I'll be anxiety-free. Even a small bird, if he sits here, he'll do like this-anxiety. You give him something to eat, but he'll not dare to come near you because he has anxiety that you may capture him. He knows that. Therefore the material life means four things: We, we require to eat something; we want a place for sleeping; we want to gratify our senses; and we want to defend from anxiety. This is material life.
Pradyumna: Mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ.
Prabhupāda: In another place it is said asaṁśaya, that is in the Eighteenth Chapter. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn; they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things.
- yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
- mad-gatenāntarātmanā
- śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
- sa me yukta(tamo mataḥ)
- (BG 6.47)
The first-class yogis. Actually no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa, tongue, and hear with the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir: by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending—"we" means Caitanya Mahāprabhu—He says that "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks "Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God, why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name?
French Man: Jehovah.
M. Lallier: What does he destroy? He destroys soul?
Prabhupāda: Hm? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: So when one has fallen too low in the material life, how can he come back to his original condition?
Prabhupāda: By surrendering to God, Kṛṣṇa.
M. Lallier: Is it possible if we are, for example, a fly, to, to become religious.
Yogeśvara: If one has fallen so far that he has taken the body of a fly or a mosquito, can he still return to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As he degraded from the body of Brahmā to fly, similarly, he can also ascend from the body of a fly to the body of Brahmā.
Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge that although... Just like here is my leg, and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? (French)
Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life.
Prabhupāda: Then why... How he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand.
Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain...
Prabhupāda: Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As soon I prick the nail cutter here, oh that "Ooooo!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand?
Pṛthu Putra: The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material.
Prabhupāda: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter.
Pṛthu: ...that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be... She has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that.
Prabhupāda: After death.
Pṛthu: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So everyone will get that peace? (German)
Pṛthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace.
Prabhupāda: The cats and dogs, everyone? The same? (German)
Pṛthu: (break) ...different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on.
Prabhupāda: So what is that difference? (German)
Pṛthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have, animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts.
Prabhupāda: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose... Just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there?
Prabhupāda: That is all... They may think like that, but this is practical thing. Try to understand that in daytime you are illusioned by this gross body, and at night you are illusioned by the subtle body. So both of them are illusion. Therefore if you are intelligent, your inquiry should be "What is my real life?" That is intelligence, "What I am?" That is... Sanātana Gosvāmī placed before... "What I am?" Ke āmi. That "I am simply hovering in illusion, gross and subtle. Then what is my real position? What I am?" That is real philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is called Brahman. When I am Brahman", so that is the beginning: "What I am? What is my position?" That illusion is going on. So the material life means he is in illusion for millions and millions of years. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgya... So out of many such millions and millions living entities, one becomes conscious, that "What is my real life?" That is awakening. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Then he begins his devotional life: "My real life is this."
Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that to stop this transmigration, one has to become completely disgusted with this material world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, unless..., how he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? If he takes as a fashion, that is another thing. Just like the man who cannot tolerate commits suicide. Therefore you told me. Yes. One who is completely disgusted with this material life, he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Satsvarūpa: What about Lord Caitanya who prayed that "I don't mind coming back again and again"?
Prabhupāda: That is devotee's sincerity, that he does not go to Kṛṣṇa for some material profit. Any condition, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is his humbleness. And a devotee, actual devotee, he doesn't want. But it happens. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti (BG 4.9). It will take automatically. But he is not, I mean to say, very serious, that "I must go to Kṛṣṇa and be saved from these material miseries." A devotee never says like that. He wants that "Never mind miseries. Let me chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is his position.
Satsvarūpa: For us, is the perfection to be absorbed in preaching to others?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. (German)
Lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christians?
Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians who also certainly want to become independent from this body which wants material life only.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or... Knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge... Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Mohammedan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge; we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot..., you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer, best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore, he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit, that "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how you can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things..., Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been, but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to... They write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high."
Devotee (1): "Without envy"?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is envious, whole world. I am envious of you, you are envious of me. That Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious persons. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take other's money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to..., he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is an animal, it was deluded that "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." So even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also. So how can you stop it? That will be not stopped. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) So Akbar (indistinct) asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar (indistinct) house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar (indistinct)'s daughter, king's daughter, very (indistinct). So the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal (indistinct) that "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar (indistinct). He was looking over that young girl. Both of them were intelligent. Then Akbar (indistinct) said, "Yes." And our śāstra says yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi. There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi. What is the standard of happiness? Maithu, sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi. All these gṛhasthas, you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life. They are busy. Especially in India you will find, they spend thousands lakhs of rupees for son's and daughter's and grandson's sex life. Is it not? That is their happiness. "I am enjoying sex life." Just like my grandmother-in-law. She is concentrating on sex life. She was old, she had no opportunity. Let grandson-in-law, granddaughter. One who is impotent, he wants to see others enjoying sex life. You know this? He enjoys. He cannot do it. There are many persons, he is impotent, so he brings another man to his wife, then he watches. You know this? This is going on. Sex. They will see the dog's sex life, very (indistinct), how he is enjoying. Cow's sex life. Dog is having sex, and there will be crowd. This is the basic principle of material life: sex. In this way, prostitution, this way, that way, that way, that way, this is the only point. There is no other aim. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). And this kind of happiness is most abominable. Most abominable. But that is the center of life. Is it not? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. Most abominable part of the body for passing urine, obnoxious smell, but that is the point of life. How much degraded this material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ. The śāstra has picked up most abominable thing: that is the point of pleasure. Yan maithunādi. Maithunādi, either he himself, or for his son, for his grandson, for his great-grandson, the family. Very aristocratic.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hṛdayānanda: He's saying, "What is sin, then?"
Prabhupāda: That sin you have explained. These are the four principles of sinful life. This can be avoided. Just like these European, American boys. They were also addicted to these sinful activities, but now they have given up, and they are understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. Material life means sinful life. Therefore we have to act materially under regulation. Just like a man suffering from some disease, he has to live under the direction of the physician. Otherwise his sufferings will continue. (break)
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hṛdayānanda: I'm going to translate piece by piece so I can tell you exactly what he's saying. He's saying that he understands perfectly well that a human being should look for a way for self-control and to control the physical force within him, but there's also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension which also has to be taken care of.
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the social dimension is described, cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse. You read.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can one cut down his limited knowledge if he's habituated to material life?
Prabhupāda: Well, habit can be changed. Just like nobody is habituated smoking from the very beginning of his life, but by association he learns smoking. And again, by association he can give it up. These boys, American, European boys, they were habituated so many bad things. Now they have given up.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can we know what is good and what is bad? How can we define them?
Prabhupāda: When you come to the good, you will understand what is good. When you come to the bad, you understand what is bad.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He does not understand.
Prabhupāda: Suppose now there are a class of thief and class of honest men. So if you associate with the thieves, you will learn how to steal. But you understand also that "People hate us." The thieves, the thief class, they know that the people hate, the police arrest, the police put them... They also know that. But because they are habituated, they cannot give it up.
Ambassador: Do you see it like that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual.
Ambassador: Yes, it's already beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The material life means animal life.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three?
Paramahaṁsa: Two or three.
Prabhupāda: In where?
Paramahaṁsa: Caracas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: But he doesn't hate it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore... Because he is hog. You become hog. You'll not hate it.
Madhudviṣa: But what if I am human being? I am enjoying this material life...
Prabhupāda: Then why do you hate that?
Madhudviṣa: Well, I don't hate what I'm doing now, myself.
Prabhupāda: No, if you are given a plate of stool, would you like to eat?
Madhudviṣa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then why? Why do you hate? Why do you hate?
Madhudviṣa: But I'm not a hog now.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They eat the hog.
Madhudviṣa: But I am not a hog.
Prabhupāda: And therefore you hate.
Jayādvaita: The karmīs will say that materialistic culture is also meant for the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we admit. The materialistic culture, how to eat nicely, that is meant for everyone. Everyone wants to eat nicely, not that only Europeans want, not the Indians. That is material. To sleep nicely in a good apartment, that is wanted by both the Easterners and Westerners. So there is no discrimination. Sex life, that is meant for everyone. So as material life is also meant for everyone, similarly, spiritual life is also meant for everyone.
Jayādvaita: So there are only two cultures.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayādvaita: The deva culture and asura culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the human form of life, one should take advantage of the spiritual culture because in other forms of life it is not possible. This is the main thing. You become Indian or American, it doesn't matter. You are human being. Take to this culture and you will be happy. This is our mission. We want to make everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy"—with Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It says in the Bhagavad-gītā that persons who at least attempt to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they again, at least they get human form of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So what is the position of tyāgīs, persons who are simply trying to renounce material life? Do they... Are they considered on the devotional path, or do they have to fall down into lower species of life?
Prabhupāda: No.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is that considered attempting to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, simply to give up, say, material sense enjoyment?
Prabhupāda: No, these tyāgīs, Māyāvādīs, by their process they may attempt paraṁ padam, means Brahman effulgence. But Brahman effulgence being simply, what is called, eternity. But a living entity does not want simply eternal life, but he wants ānanda. Now, suppose if you are given, if God says that "You live here in this field eternally," would you like that?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: For enjoying and getting slaps also, both thing. You see? When the children enjoys, sometimes the father slaps also. Why?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Disobedience. They do something that is harmful to themselves or to others.
Prabhupāda: So you can enjoy life, material life, as the father directs. So that is devotional service. Then you will enjoy. Otherwise you will get slapped.
Trivikrama: So-called enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you manufacture your program of enjoyment, then you will be slapped. And if you enjoy according to the direction of the father, then you'll enjoy. This is the... Kṛṣṇa says, "Enjoy life. All right. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. Live peacefully. Always think of Me. Worship Me." That we have prescribed. Come here and think of Kṛṣṇa. And so that is enjoyment. So they don't want. They want liquor. They want illicit sex. They want meat. So therefore they must be slapped. Actually all this whole universe is made for your enjoyment, but enjoy it according to His direction. Then you will enjoy. That is the difference between demigod and demon. The demon wants to enjoy, manufacturing his own way of life. And the demigod, they enjoy better than the demons because under the direction of God.
Brahmānanda: Well, some people like to... They get pleasure from intoxication, they get pleasure from...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore they suffer aftereffect. That is ignorance, that immediately you get some sense pleasure, but the result is very bad. And that is sinful.
Rāmeśvara: You wrote in the Fourth Canto that if we have too much sense pleasure when we are young, then we have corresponding disease when we are older.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins. (break)
Jayapatāka: Everyone is sending their sons and daughters to the university and colleges, and they are getting degree, but they are not getting any jobs.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Romaharṣaṇa?
Satsvarūpa: Who Balarāma killed?
Prabhupāda: No, another. Lomarṣa, Lomarṣa Muni. He would die when all the hairs on the body will fall down. And each hair will fall down after the death of one Brahmā. So he was chanting on the sea, and Nārada Muni was passing: "Why don't you make a cottage?" "How long I shall live? What is the use of cottage?" He's also thinking: "I'll die."
Satsvarūpa: There's also the story of that Mahārāja Khāṭvaṅga, who found out that he only had a minute to live. What did he do, that he...? You say that he surrendered at once.
Prabhupāda: He surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Hmmm. Go this...
Devotee: Prabhupāda, if we, if we increase our devotional activities, then we automatically become satisfied, and then detached from material life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (end)
Devotee (1): (break) ...till they give up their lusty desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end)
Prabhupāda: So, everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement: "bottomless," "topless..." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). They become attached. On account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then he will be cured. The disease is of the mind. Harāv abhaktasy kuto mahād-guṇa mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind. And the mind is taking him here and there, here... And the yoga practice is also treatment.
Prabhupāda: So if you distribute this knowledge, that will be real social work. And if you give some help, temporary, but he remains subjected to the rules of birth, death, and old age, that is temporary.
Sister: If you're devoted enough can you gain release from birth, death, and old age completely in one life?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is explained here.
Sister: Yeah, within one material life? You necessarily don't have to return?
Prabhupāda: No.
Sister: It's only if you haven't got rid of these impurities that you have to return, take on another body?
Prabhupāda: Just if you do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to. Here it is said, "One who understands Me definitely, he does not come." So try to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you become free from birth and death and old age.
Mother: And what about before they joined Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: He was subjected to birth and death and old age, that's all.
Devotee: It will break.
Prabhupāda: Oh. And this path is not dangerous? (laughter) Everything is dangerous in the material world. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (SB 10.14.58). In every step there is danger. That is material life. (break) ...they claim equal rights man and woman. Why in the lavatory they are different?
Madhudviṣa: They also want to have the same there.
Prabhupāda: Why there is difference? Ladies and gents. Why not equal right?
Śrutakīrti: In some of our modern universities they are doing that.
Prabhupāda: Advancing.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just see, foolishness. But at least somewhere there is no equal right in the lavatory. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greeting someone) I have received your letter, you can see me. (break) (Conversation continues in the car) This too much intermingling of woman means the path of hell. Therefore the restriction is that only the married couple can freely mix, not others. Mahat-sevāṁ dvār... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are not interested associating with devotees. They are interested associating with man or woman, that's all. Woman is interested to associate with man, and man is interested to associate with woman. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Therefore the civilization is becoming hellish. It is already said in the śāstra. One should associate with spiritually advanced men, but that is not being done. Now the woman is hankering after man, man is hankering after woman. Yoṣit saṅg... Yoṣit means for sense gratification. Tamo-dvāram. This is the path of darkness.
Prabhupāda: You have voluntarily accept her supremacy. Just like you have accepted some disease. So disease is forcing you. And if you cure, then it will not be able to force you. You infect some disease. Then you become forced by the disease to accept the miseries. But if you are not diseased, there is no question of force. If you become criminal, the police forces you. And if you are not criminal you have no business with the police. It is like this. Police control, controller—the controlling power upon me comes when I am criminal. Otherwise why police will control me? Therefore I voluntarily accept the control of police by my criminal desires. That is going on. That is material life.
Madhudviṣa: But would that mean that a person who is a pure devotee doesn't have to die?
Prabhupāda: No, die... Pure or nonpure, nobody dies.
Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.
Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, "Make it like this." He will, it will do. So... But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part. So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life. Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son's duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world.
Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, in the Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, "Nature, Enjoyer, and Consciousness," in verse number six and seven you mention those twenty-seven coverings: "The five great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifest, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hate, happiness, and distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms and convictions—all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and their interaction." And...
Prabhupāda: By the material life, these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things, but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "Kut, kut, kut, kut, kut, kut." But one has to push the button; otherwise useless. However very nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul is out it is lump of matter, useless, not worth a penny. Throw it away. So we are giving importance to the machine, not to the person who is dealing with the machine. This is the folly of modern civilization. We are thinking like child, "The machine is working independently." But that is not the fact. The big airship, 747, is flying because the pilot is there, and the pilot is a soul, covered by another bodily machine. And that, that is missing point in the modern civilization, that who is working with the machine. That they do not know. That is ignorance.
Brahmānanda: It is his obligation to help someone in trouble.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is humanity. Not that "This man is going to hell. Let him go to hell. I am happy. That's all." That is not humanity. Paropakāra. That is Vedic civilization, paropakāra, not to exploit others.
Devotee (1): A lot of times, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that we are just escaping material life. We're not having jobs...
Prabhupāda: How we are escaping?
Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we don't have jobs and that we should work for...
Prabhupāda: So why shall I... A rich man, does he work? We are rich men. We don't work. You rascal, you have no money. You work. We are rich men. Why shall I work? Any rich man you see, he is not working. He is escaping? What is that? Any rich man who has got money, he is not working. He is engaging all fools and rascals in the factory. So is that, is he escaping?
Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we're just...
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all take one answer. That we are rich men, we are Kṛṣṇa's son. So why shall I work like you, an ass? A ass will work unnecessarily. We are not asses.
Devotee (4): ...consciousness part of this life, up to the time of death, in our next life we will be put in a situation immediately where we can take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness again or will we have to suffer karma before we came into Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: You will get Kṛṣṇa conscious again. Yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāya... Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāyate (BG 6.41). A Kṛṣṇa conscious person will be given all comforts of material life so that he may regain without any botheration.
Yadubara: Sometimes it is stated that Kṛṣṇa will take everything away from the devotee.
Prabhupāda: That is special favor, (laughter) that "This rascal is again attached. Take all his..." That is special favor. That is not ordinary favor, so that when everything is taken away, he will completely surrender to Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, I have nothing except You."
Prabhupāda: And they are not frightened? Without this knowledge they are not frightened, as if they are safe. (laughter) Are they safe without that knowledge? They are frightened of your atomic bomb. Who is not frightened? Who is that rascal who is not frightened? Is there any person who is not frightened?
Paramahaṁsa: A fool.
Prabhupāda: Fool is also frightened when there is stick. Everyone is frightened. That is the one of the conditions of material life. As eating is one of the items, similarly frightening is also... And the more one is godless, he is more frightened.
Paramahaṁsa: There is this question about these, again, UFO's, whether or not they are aggressive or if they will bring us more knowledge than what we have. So there's this fear, uncertainty. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...sataḥ syāt. This frightfulness is due to unawareness of God. The more one is unaware of God, he is more frightened. One who is fully conscious of God, he is not frightened because he knows, "Everything is God. Why shall I afraid?"
Paramahaṁsa: Even death.
Prabhupāda: Death is already declared that "I am death." Kṛṣṇa says. So there is no question of.
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Satsvarūpa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that on the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma-rasa, and the Pitṛloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death. Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise, it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge, where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree and quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things; but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life."
Prabhupāda: So this is our mission. We are propagating this. Do you think it is all right?
Mr. Surface: Do I think it's all right? Well, it's a point of view.
Prabhupāda: No, what we are doing... We are teaching people that "Don't bother about your economic condition of life. It will come automatically, what you are destined to obtain. You better utilize your energy how to get out of this condition of life, birth, death, old age and disease."
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that "Why you are bringing India? The whole world is in darkness." (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Good morning.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a verse in the Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda. Yenātmā suprasīdati: "By rendering devotional service to the transcendental Lord, one becomes completely satisfied." So what happens? These people in material life, they come to the temples and they chant a little bit. But they find that the standard of pure devotional service is so high that they're not able to grasp it. They don't feel the complete satisfaction. They're still attached to the material world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is compared with the jaundice disease. Jaundice disease, for jaundice, sugarcane is the medicine. But they taste sugarcane as bitter. Sugarcane... One who is suffering in jaundice will taste sugarcane as bitter. That is the test. So that is the medicine. So he has to take the sugarcane. And by taking, when he is cured he will find, "Oh, it is very sweet."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then he has to recognize there is some problem living in this material world.
Prabhupāda: No. He does not find any happiness on account of his too much materialistic mind.
Prabhupāda: African means black Africans. No?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. South Africans, they were Europeans. The British started the first concentration camp. They took these "Afrikaners" as they call them, Europeans. They put them on an island called St. Helena. That was actually the first concentration camp, by the British.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. Still, even the opposite party, they are not disgusted—"This material life is not very peaceful." They are not disgusted.
Brahmānanda: Now they are thinking, "We'll be independent..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That... They are trying to be independent. And India... Just like India has got independent, and now the position is "emergency." They do not think in this way, that "Independence or dependence, we are actually dependent under the laws of nature." That they do not think. They are thinking... The same example as I gave, that "This boil is here. Why not here? It is very painful," like that. They have no sense that so-called dependence or independence, he has to suffer. That he does not know. Mūḍha nābhijānāti.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...Vedic culture, there is descriptions of many demigods, and the karmīs, they would generally worship these different demigods for material benefits. Why didn't they just try to get the material benefits without worshiping the demigods, like they are doing today?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today people are making money and trying to enjoy material life...
Prabhupāda: Who is making money? Who is making money?
Harikeśa: The government. It is printing it up.
Prabhupāda: Do you think everyone is making money?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's a big illusion? It's a big illusion?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone simply working hard like asses. That's all. This is their happiness. Just like the hog, he's working very hard to eat stool, and he is thinking happy. He is getting fatty. Do you think to work hard day and night and eat stool is happiness?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: If you mislead them, if you mislead them, then what is the use of taking leadership?
Jayapatākā: That's why that system where a brahmacārī is recommended for one year and then he proves himself by doing some extraordinary preaching work is a very good system. Otherwise, anyone just comes and by pressurizing and begging and pleading, then they try to take sannyāsa. Then they don't stay to the path.
Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa means ultimate success, because this human life is meant for becoming disgusted with this material life: "No more." Material life means to take a body and enjoy this material āhāra-nidrā, sleeping twenty-four hours, eating like elephant, and sex life like a monkey, these animals. This is material life, eating, sleeping, mating, and always afraid of. This is material life. And human life means to take freedom from these four things: no more afraid, no more sex, no more hankering after eating or sleeping. That is success. Everyone... You'll see in the sparrow in the morning. They're enjoying sex. So this is material life: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. And spiritual life means to become free from all this nonsense. That is spiritual life. They do not know what is spiritual life. The whole world, they do not know what is spiritual life. This is spiritual life, to become free from these four abominable things.
Hṛdayānanda: They are trying to increase these four things.
Prabhupāda: That means cheating themselves. What is the use of taking sannyāsa and cheat yourself? Material life means punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly doing the same thing. Either as human being or as monkey or as a small ant or the demigods, but doing the business is the same, four things: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. In different scale, doing the same business. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaḥ, "again and again," carvita-carvaṇānām, "chewing the chewed." If one is sober, he thinks that "These four business, I have done many, many lives, as sparrow, or as jackal, or as demigod, and I have got this human form. Again I am doing this? So what is benefit of this human form of life?" This is sense. "I got this valuable life, and I am still doing the same thing as dogs and cats and sparrows? Then what is the difference between me and the dogs?" That is sense. "What is my better engagement?" That better engagement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then his life is successful. Otherwise what is the use of...? Again become a sparrow. Again wait for millions of years to come by evolutionary process to the human form of life. You see? This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). Because they cannot control the sense, they are going in the darkest part of this material existence.
Revatīnandana: "But I am a fool, so I will keep trying. I will not surrender to Kṛṣṇa."
Jayatīrtha: They like to be a fool.
Prabhupāda: And...
Gurukṛpā: They say, "You Westerners have enjoyed the material life, and we have not. Therefore let us enjoy, and then we will become."
Prabhupāda: What is that enjoyment? Is that enjoyment? They are working so hard for ten rupees. Is that enjoyment? The enjoyment is "the future, future." "At night I shall go to my wife and enjoy"—that is enjoyment. But for that enjoyment he is working so hard. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Everyone is thinking, "I shall enjoy at night," and working hard. That's all. This is enjoyment.
Hṛdayānanda: Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted. Chinese Communist philosophy, does anybody know? What is that? What philosophy? They have got some philosophy.
Hṛdayānanda: They're emphasizing industrial development. Everyone, the entire country, is mobilized for developing industry, economic benefits, so everyone can enjoy nice material life under...
Prabhupāda: And that is the philosophy of the Western countries.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: Actually there is.... There is two factions in the Chinese schools now. One is saying to.... They're both materialistically based, but one is trying to stay on a position of self-sufficiency economically and not take from other countries or even trade, and the other school is to industrialize. And they're always fighting with their...
Prabhupāda: Oh, there are two schools?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said, "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said, "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said, "You've come up against the Great Wall. You'll never cross it."
Prabhupāda: No, they'll be.... Nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish.... They are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become, violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force—that is futile. Is it possible, that "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says, "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all.
Hari-śauri: They get their enjoyment from taking a risk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is not suffering, they're taking risk as enjoyment.
Devotee (2): Material life is great suffering. Totally insensitive that they take such suffering to be enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. They are being punished, but if you think that "I am punished," they will die. You must take it "I'm enjoying." This is māyā's energy. They are being punished, but punishment they are taking as enjoyment. Illusion. The conditioned soul is illusioned. This is illusion. He is being punished, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." That is a concession. When he's punished, he may not be woke up with the unhappiness. Therefore he's thinking "I'm enjoying." Actually he's being punished.
Devotee (3): (break) ...saying though you have to laugh to keep from crying.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Devotee (3): There's an old saying that things sometimes become so miserable that you have to laugh to keep from crying. So in the material world they have to keep laughing because everything is very miserable.
Prabhupāda: Just like a criminal is put into the prison house for being punished, he will say, "Just see, I am living happily. I haven't got to work. I'm getting my food." (laughing) Such shameless. He does not know that "I am put here for suffering." But he's thinking "I'm so living happily.... I haven't got to work. Other men, they're going to the office, to the factory. I'm eating." (laughing) He forgets actually he's put into the prison house to suffer. He doesn't come to his senses. Therefore again when he's released, again he comes. He thinks that it is.... In Bengal they call social beggars (indistinct) Social beggars (indistinct) just like son-in-law goes to father-in-law's, and he's well received. So they think that prison house is social beggar (indistinct), another in-law's house.
Prabhupāda: Why should he desire like that? That means he has not understood what is meant by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One who understands wants to get out in this lifetime.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One who understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness should want to finish the business of material life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he's required to read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. It is said clearly, "This is a place of misery." Why do you desire to keep yourself in this.... That means you do not understand what is spiritual life.
Hari-śauri: Still thinking he's this body.
Prabhupāda: Thinking. Thinking, he's under the influence of māyā. māyā is dictating, "Why you are trying to go away? Come on, here, Santa Monica." (laughter) And when you become detestful either this Santa Monica or any Monica, "I am not interested," then your spiritual life is...
Jagannātha-suta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was in New York recently to check the color printing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 7.2, we were presented with two awards which your books had won for color and design, two awards from the Printing Industries of Metropolitan New York. They gave us big wooden plaques with a certificate of excellence, yes, for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and for Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Hṛdayānanda: You should show Prabhupāda, bring him those plaques.
Jagannātha-suta: Yes, we have those plaques hanging up in the Press building now.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Bring it, I shall see.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, may I say something, add something to this idea that the so-called rigid flight is insecure? Therefore the rigid planes are insecure because they do not imitate nature, and that is why they have so many accidents with the planes. But these gliders are much safer because they are more like birds.
Prabhupāda: After all, imitation is imitation. Sometimes it is perfect imitation.... Perfect cannot be. But as far as possible. But imitation is there. And the material life is imitation. Because material life means we want to imitate God. That is material life. God is all-powerful; we want to become all-powerful. That is material life. And the struggle for existence. Because we cannot become God, it is impossible, but artificially, they are trying to become God. And that is struggle for existence. So material life means imitation. Everyone is struggling to become God. Even when one is so-called liberated, self-realized, just like the Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also writing "Self, my own self," but "I am independent." That is the material disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He's always thinking that "I am independent," which he's not. He's completely under the laws of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27), but he's thinking "I'm independent." That is foolishness. They'll not accept knowledge given by God; they'll manufacture knowledge. That is material disease. And that knowledge is also uncertain. One stalwart man of knowledge is speaking, "I think, I believe," and another stalwart is saying, "No, no, I think, I believe." What is the meaning of this "I think, I believe"? We say "You are all rascals. Whatever you believe, whatever you think, they are all rascaldom." That's all. This is our decision. There are many persons, they are simply saying, "I think, I believe," and we say, "You all people who are thinking independently, believing independently, you are all rascals." That's all. So far our position is concerned, we never say "I think." Whatever we say, we support it immediately by some quotation of the Vedic literature. That is our process.
Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja afraid of this material life, not of Nṛsiṁha-deva. Such a fierceful appearance, he knows "He's my Lord." No fear, but he's afraid of this material existence. Trasto 'smi, read it, the same verse, trasto 'smi.
Hṛdayānanda: Trasto 'smy ahaṁ kṛpaṇa-vatsala duḥsahogra.
Prabhupāda: Duḥsahogra: this material life, the tribulation, it is unbearable. Trasto 'smi, duḥsaha ugra. Hm. Then?
Hṛdayānanda: Saṁsāra-cakra.
Prabhupāda: Ah, saṁsāra-cakra. Then?
Hṛdayānanda: Kadanād grasatāṁ praṇītaḥ, baddhaḥ sva-karmabhir uśattama...
Prabhupāda: "And when I am put into this condition... Not that I am accusing You. It is due to my own fault, sva-karmabhiḥ, by my own resultant action of karma." Then?
Hṛdayānanda: Uśattama te 'ṅghri-mūlam.
Prabhupāda: "Therefore kindly engage me in Your service." What is the translation?
Hṛdayānanda: Of the whole verse?
Prabhupāda: Of this verse, yes.
Prabhupāda: Next verse.
Hṛdayānanda: Yasmāt priyāpriya-viyoga-saṁyoga-janma.
Prabhupāda: This is description of this material life. Yasmāt priyāpriya?
Hṛdayānanda: Viyoga-saṁyoga-janma.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Hṛdayānanda:
- śokāgninā sakala-yoniṣu dahyamānaḥ
- duḥkhauṣadhaṁ tad api duḥkham atad-dhiyāhaṁ
- bhūman bhramāmi vada me tava dāsya-yogam
"O great one, O Supreme Lord, because of combination with pleasing and displeasing circumstances and because of separation from them, one is placed in a most regrettable position, within heavenly or hellish planets, as if burning in a fire of lamentation. Although there are many remedies by which to get out of miserable life, any such remedies in the material world are more miserable than the miseries themselves."
Prabhupāda: Just see (laughs). You want to mitigate some misery, and the process is still more miserable. Is it not?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He comes a certain period and looks after the garden. (japa) (break) ...are very famous gardener. Unfortunately, in Japan there is no space to make garden.
Kīrtanānanda: They do everything in miniature.
Prabhupāda: Everything. They have got so much intellect, technologists, everything—no land.
Kīrtanānanda: In material life there is always one thing lacking.
Prabhupāda: sat-saṅga chāḍi' kāinu, asate vilāsa, te-kāraṇe lāgila mora, karma-bandha-phāṅsa: "I have given up reality, and I'm attached to unreality; therefore I am entangled in fruitive activities." Te-kāraṇe lāgila mora, karma-bandha-phāṅsa. (japa) (break)
Rāmeśvara: Actually, on Watseka Avenue we own more property than anyone here in Beverly Hills.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: On Watseka Avenue, we have the temple and maybe seven other buildings, so we own more property and buildings than anyone here in Beverly Hills.
Prabhupāda: They have only one house—with great difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved-moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance. And spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tamas. Tamas means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is the Vedic mantra. Don't remain in darkness. But people cannot understand. "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" Darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness.
Indian man (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's one thing in the human nature, that he always thinks that he's the chief and around the world everything is running around him, and most probably he always can show off that "I am the leader of everything." Why is it so? In every person.
Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease. That is material disease. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa. Nobody wants to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Kartāham iti manyate. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Rascal bewildered by false egotism, he's thinking "I am everything." That is material life. And when by cultivation of knowledge, good association, you come to the conclusion that "I am not everything, Kṛṣṇa is everything; I am His servant," then perfection. Otherwise he's in the māyā-cakra.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod."
Prabhupāda: This is material desire, to try to become master. This is the root cause of material life. Go on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Under the influence of material desire the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all circumstances the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the..."
Prabhupāda: Even in the stool, the worms in the stool, he's also thinking "I have got so much stool to eat." This same mastership. "I am the monarch of all I survey. I have got so much stool." And you just take the worm from the stool, put it here: "No, no, no, here is my enjoyment." This mastership mentality is there in Brahma, and the mastership mentality is there in the worm of the stool. This mentality you have to give up. Then you become liberated. That is liberation. The bondage is that mastership mentality. He's servant, but he's thinking falsely that he's master. Just like your President Nixon. He thought that "Now I have become master of America, I'm president." He forgot that he's servant. As soon as the people wanted, dragged him down. That he forgot, that "I'm servant of the people." So everyone is servant, but falsely thinking "I'm master." That is material disease. The best thing is that if I have to remain servant, why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? That's all. That is perfection. That is perfect life. Even by becoming a false master of the whole American country, I was not happy, I am now dragged down as a common man, Mr. Nixon, then what is the use of becoming master? It is all false. Let me become servant of Kṛṣṇa; then it is perfect. Instead of becoming a false master of the American country, let me be a real servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is liberty, liberated. Because any stage of my life, to become master is false. That is not possible. He has to be convinced that he cannot be master. Your constitution is to remain servant.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter."The compilers of the Upaniṣads speak very highly of the impersonal Brahman. The Upaniṣads, which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upaniṣads..."
Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing?
Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda.
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain.
Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.
Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter)
Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community.
Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can teach how this cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is... Actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras, then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa. So this, not this brain, this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the... But just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientists from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa. You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. These people give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain. So without brain how the society can go on? If you simply produce motor mechanics, then? Brain must be there. Just like this is brain, Sanātana Gosvāmī is asking, ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya. This is brain. "I don't want some uncomfortable situation, but why it is enforced?" So when you make research into that, that is brain. And if we remain like animal, "All right, they are dragging me to the slaughterhouse, that's all right, let me go," that is not brain. Brain means that I am seeking after perfect happiness, why I am not allowed to have this perfect happiness? That is brain. The question, if there is any remedy. They are doing this. Scientific brain means there are so many problems, they are trying to solve it. That requires brain. But because they are poor scientists, they do not know how to make a solution of the ultimate problem. They are making tiny problems, that's all. There is power shortage, all right, let us invent some substitute of petroleum. Brain is being taxed. Again it is finished, again another. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But they are so dull brain, they do not raise the question that we are making solution of one problem, another problem is ready. That brain they have not. So how long we shall go on solving the problems, another problem, another problem? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). He does not know that nature will not allow me to live peacefully. So we bring problems after problems. That is material life. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. Everything is there. You discuss only Bhagavad-gītā, you'll get so many subject matter to think and write. This is brain. We are solving one problem, another problem is there. Why this is happening? If there is any situation without any problem? That is brain.
Interviewer: What is your opinion of what this movement should be doing in terms of world activities and world affairs that it isn't doing now? Are there some new areas that you may try to influence?
Prabhupāda: No, we are pushing on this movement all over the world. It is not that this particular place is important, but our interest is that Western people... They are so intelligent. They are very systematically making improvement in material condition of life. They should know also that spiritual life is more important than material life. Because, for example, we are combination of matter and spirit. So long the spirit soul is there, our body is very important. Otherwise, without spirit, the body has no importance. Everyone can understand. Similarly, all this material advancement of civilization is very good, provided there is spiritual understanding also. Otherwise it is decoration of the dead body. A dead body decorated has no value, but when there is life, then the body is valuable. So material advancement of material civilization means decoration of the dead body. But when there is spiritual understanding, then there is importance of everything.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing that there is another life which is eternal, blissful, life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age, and disease. There is no information, neither education, but there is a life very... If you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age, and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal, and life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization, they are living like animals. No intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education, nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system. How one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. Satsvarūpa is there?
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But it is useless waste of time. The sooner they give up all these attempts, they become saner. (break)... it is said it is simply waste of time. Yato āyur vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting time, valuable life.
Rāmeśvara: But the natural instinct is to want to enjoy varieties...
Prabhupāda: That is material life. The material life means falsely he's thinking that he'll be happy by material adjustment. That is material life. Falsely he's thinking. He'll never be happy, but they are thinking like that. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). Durāśayā means this hope will never be fulfilled. That is called durāśayā, a hope which is not going to be successful at any time. And throughout the whole history they have tried, the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Egyptian Empire, so many they tried, but all failed. Napoleon, Hitler, but still they have no eyes to see. From the history you see, everything failed. Napoleon started with some ideal, conquering all over Europe, and at last he had to die drinking horse urine. You know that? It was, later on he was arrested by British, and when he was asking drinking water he was given horse urine. That was his last life.
standard?
Prabhupāda: That is not artificially. The more you are engaged in spiritual activities, the more you become free from material activities. That is the test.
Interviewer: And so you've arrived at that...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't speak about myself, but that is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you advance in bhakti, in spiritual life, then you become disinterested in material life.
Interviewer: Do you think there's a difference between the various peoples of the world? In other words, do you think that Indians as opposed to Europeans have more of a tendency or are more likely to adhere to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, any intelligent man can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That I have already explained, that unless one is very intelligent, he cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is open for everyone. But there are different grades of intelligence. In Europe, America, they are intelligent, but their intelligence is utilized for material purposes. And in India their intelligence is utilized for spiritual purpose. Therefore you find so many highly spiritual standard of life, books, literature. Just like Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva was also in householder life, but he was living in the forest, and see his contribution of literature. Nobody can dream even. So by literary contribution, one's intelligence is tested. All big, big men of the material world, scientists, philosophers, even technicians, they are recognized by their writings, by their contribution, not by their gigantic body.
Prabhupāda: No, it is all Vedic system. It is Vedic system.
Interviewer: Is it better to do it the way you did it or to start from a very early age in the, er...?
Rāmeśvara: In other words, some of our members are sannyāsa at an earlier age.
Prabhupāda: No, if... The purpose is to train a person in brahmacārī, not to enter into the entanglement of this material life. That is Vedic system. Basic principle is that don't be entangled with this material energy. So at the early age, up to twenty-five, he's trained up. If he can, he can continue as brahmacārī. He directly can take sannyāsa. But if he's unable, so let him go by step by step. Let him become a family, householder life, then retired life, then... But sannyāsa at the end, that is compulsory, not that unless he is shot down by somebody, he's not going to give up family life. That is not Vedic system.
Interviewer: But young men don't tend to be wise, do they?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Interviewer: Young men do not generally possess a great deal of wisdom.
Interviewer: The almost the whole world, and all civilizations, look down upon the varṇāśrama-dharma as a system in which hierarchical and stratified conditions prevent human beings from progressing. They think of our system as...
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is progress. That I was talking with your Associated Press, press reporter. Just like they do not know that their material life means they are in the prison house for being punished. They are so dull headed they are taking the activities of punishment as regular life. A man is put into the prison house, and his engagement is breaking the bricks. So he has forgotten that "This breaking of bricks is not my business. I am meant for living freely outside the prison house." So these people, less intelligent people, they think that this material life of working hard day and night, just like the hogs and dogs, is general life. That is due to their ignorance. In the Bhāgavata it is said, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1), that this human form of life, although we have got this body, and the hog has also got the body, the hog is working day and night... Perhaps you have seen in Indian village, the hog is loitering in the village. His only business is where to find stool, and eat it. And as soon as he eats, he becomes strong in sense, and then sex. The hog has no discrimination of sex—either mother or sister or anyone. So this sort of life, working day and night for stool, and then as soon as the body is strong, find out sex, never mind whether mother, sister or anyone... This is not human life; this is hog's life. Do you think it is human life?
Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the Gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs.
Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life.
Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way, simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple...
Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no" then he'll, they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting. But they'll "No, no." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogues, everything. There is no ideal character. All politicians, scientists, leaders, they are all drunkards and woman-hunters.
Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, can one obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in a life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life."
Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all?
Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more.
Prabhupāda: Very light. In the morning you can give them this puffed grains, then fruits and milk, very good breakfast. I mean to say all self-dependent. Yes. We should save time, as much for this purpose, for chanting, discussing grantha. Not for any personal so-called comforts. We can sit down anywhere on the grass here, and whatever available we make our food. This is the idea. Life will be sublime. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. That is real business.
Bhagavān: They are spending so much money for entertainment in material life, but no one is becoming enlivened. But this kind of discussion is so fresh. For a show they pay five dollars, to go to one movie for one hour, two hours.
Prabhupāda: That is another artificial agitation of the mind. It has, there is no practical benefit. Just see how many varieties of flowers, colorful. Can they make such colorful? "Yes, we're trying to overcome nature. Wait millions of years." And what about not? "Now you sleep." (laughter) These rascals are misleading other rascals. And they are, "Oh, a scientist!" Very misleading civilization. We shall appreciate in every flower the craftsmanship of Kṛṣṇa, how He has done nicely. Unnecessarily puffed up by so-called advancement of knowledge, misleading themselves and misleading others. Who is that old man comes? Some old man?
Bhagavān: He's a life member from Belgium.
Prabhupāda: Oh. He has come from Belgium? In the last German war, the first attempt of attack was on Belgium. And within few hours, Belgium finished, conquered.
Prabhupāda: This is family relation. Ṛktha-haraiḥ svajanākhya-dasyubhiḥ. Ṛktha-haraiḥ(?). Their only business is that you earn money with hard labor, and they'll take away. Their business is to take away. And they have got legal right. Dāya, dāya-bhāga. The son has got the right, legal right, to take whatever the father has accumulated. Nobody will say "No, you cannot take." No, he has the right, and so far wife is concerned, her business is to extend your condition, material condition. When one is alone, brahmacārī, he has no condition, he lives freely. But as soon as he's married, so many obligations. Ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ (SB 5.5.8), must have a nice house, must have good land, good source of income. And then if you have got house and good source of income, then you call friends to oblige them. Then get children, give them education, put them in nice condition of life, get them married, again grandchildren, and so on, so on. That means these material conditions which have embarrassed me, that business is very nicely done by the wife for increasing my embarrassment. Nowadays nobody takes responsibility of family. That is another thing. But marriage means to take so many responsibilities. That is another condition of material life. Then home, people are sacrificing so much for home, for country, for nation. That also will be finished with the end of this body. When the body's ended, you are no more Iranian or American or Indian. You do not know what you are. Even if you have got attachment for the country, you can become a tree in that country. If you become animal, you are slaughtered in that country. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), even though you have got attachment, on account of changing the body your situation is changing. So in this way Bali Mahārāja analyzes the whole thing, that "What is the use of all this?" Is he right or wrong, his analysis?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very intelligent, perfect.
Prabhupāda: To understand, you have to take the training, spiritual training. You have to understand the words which God wants to let you know about Him. These are spiritual training. Spiritual training means first of all you must have little faith that "I shall be intimately related with God." Unless you have got this faith, there is no question of spiritual training. If you simply remain satisfied, "God is great, let Him remain at His home, let me remain at my home," that is not love. You must be eager to know God more and more intimately. Then the next stage is how to know about God unless you associate with persons who are simply busy in God's business. They have no other business. Just like we are training people, they are simply meant for God's business. They have no other business. How people will understand about God, how they will be benefited, they are simply planning in so many ways. So we have to associate with such persons who are convinced about God and trying to spread His knowledge throughout the world. You have to mix with, associate with them. First of all, you must have faith that, "In this life I shall understand thoroughly about God." Then associate with persons who are busy with God's business. Then you act as they are acting. Then your misconception of material life will be finished. Then you'll have attachment. Then you'll have taste. In this way you'll develop love of God.
Prabhupāda: You should know everyone is confused. If you have got capacity, then you make him peaceful. Otherwise, you expect everyone is confused. It is a different life. Unless one is very, very fortunate, he cannot understand it. So confusion is natural. There is not the question of some people or other, everyone is confused. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is spirit. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how he'll not be confused? The very beginning is confusion. So long one is confused with this bodily conception of life, he's called in the śāstra animal. The animal is always confused. He does not know what is life, what is aim.
- yasyātmā buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijyadhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he's confused like the animals, cows and asses. That is the general condition. So you should not be surprised to see somebody confused. Because he's in bodily concept of life. Unless he overcomes the bodily concept of life, he'll remain confused. Because he's accepting something which is not. He's practically seeing that he's not body, still he's thinking "I am this body." This is confusion. Practically he's seeing daily that body is there and the spirit soul left the body, now the body has no value, everyone knows it. Still, he's thinking, "I am this body." How much foolish he is. That is confusion. He knows that. He practically sees every day, "My father is gone." "Why your father is gone? He's lying there." "No, no, my father is gone." He's experienced. His father is gone, his brother is gone, his relatives gone, and still he thinks, "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that." This is confusion. So it requires little advancement of knowledge to get out of this confusion. But he is practically keeping himself in this confusion. So not somebody, but everybody.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Practically material life is very confusing, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is confusion.
Atreya Ṛṣi: One is thinking that one can enjoy and goes after something, and it is not there. Everybody's trying to grab for themselves. Very confusing.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the śāstra says, yenātmā suprasīdati.
Prabhupāda: Nobody. Do you think your king, Shah, is also happy? No. His sons, daughter, they are happy? No. He is also anxious how to keep his position, exalted position, he has to makes many plans, satisfy so many ministers, so many. He is also full of anxiety. And a small bird eating some grain here, he's attracted for the grain, but he's looking this way, "Oh, here is a man, here is man, he may not do some harm to me." So everyone is full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have adopted this material life, asad, our mind should always be full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this temporary body, we have to be full of anxiety. This is law of nature. And if we act in this life to create another material body, then our all activities are spoiled. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. He did not ask about the constitutional position of himself, he simply engaged himself in dog's place(?). Then whatever activities he has done, it is simply defeat. Next body what he's going to get he does not know. If you become a minister in this life and next life you become a dog, then what is the benefit? Can anyone challenge this? "No, no, I'm not going to become a dog." Nobody can say.
Prabhupāda: That is their business. They want or they don't want, that's all. Two business. Because their mind is not fixed up, they have got two businesses—"don't do it," "do it." That's all. There is no third business. Two things—"do it," "don't do it." That's all. Sometimes accepting—"Do it"—and again rejecting, "No, no, don't do it." This is material world. "Do it" and "don't do it." And things are becoming implicated. Saṅkalpa-vikalpa. So he has to fix up his mind. "I have done so much 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Now I shall decide to do only what Kṛṣṇa says." Then his life is perfect. "I shall give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' But I'll simply do what Kṛṣṇa says." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "Yes, now I'll do it. What You say, I'll do it." Then his life is perfect. Otherwise he'll continue, "don't do it," "do it," "don't do it," "do it," that's all. And Kṛṣṇa will give him sanction—"do it" and "don't do it." Unless he comes to the original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa has to give him sanction, "Yes, do it." "Yes, do not do it." What can be done? But He says, "Give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Simply do what I say. Then you'll be happy." Unless we agree to that point, we have to continue this material life, life after life, and suffer. Material body means suffering. Either you get human body or animal body or tree body or any body, suffers.
Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost.
Commissioner: Educational center.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṇas means they are teachers. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. So every temple should be educational center, and the brāhmaṇas should be engaged. They should be properly educated and they should teach others also. In this way, temple means education in spiritual life. And actually spiritual life is life. This material life, the bodily conception of life, is dead life. Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. This nice shirt you have changed because there is life. When there is no life, who is going to change dress? The body is there, but why you are not interested in changing the dress? Better interest... The sooner the body is thrown away or burned, better. So similarly... (break) There is a proverb that a vulture goes very high, but his ambition is where is a dead body. As soon as he finds a dead body, (growling sound) immediately. And we see, "Oh, how high he has gone." So what is the going up so high if your aim is to find out a dead body? And actually, these aeronautics, they went to very high, suppose they went to moon. But after going there they find, "Where is Moscow? Where is this?" The same vulture business. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to give relief to the human society. So everyone should cooperate with this movement. Unfortunately, there are so many envious persons, they are writing against us, talking against us. They should be envious. Because they want to exploit, keeping the people in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Fittest means who does not get next a material body. He is fit. He is fit. Because as soon as you get a material body...
- nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
- yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
- na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
- asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
- (SB 5.5.4)
They are mad, working day and night. Pramatta. And acting just adverse to his interest. So Ṛṣabhadeva says this is not good. You should know that he has already got a body for which he is suffering. Pritar yantra.(?) And again he is creating another body. By his karma he is creating another body. So as soon as you get a material body you'll have to suffer. Either you become a king or a dog. Because you have got this material body you have to suffer. Pritar yantra. So asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). This body will not exist. But still so long you'll exist in this body you'll suffer. But they have no brain how to solve this, although there is solution. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). So paropakāra. So as you have become our life member, try to broadcast the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the meaning of membership. Everything is there. We have got so many books. At least, thoroughly study Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Yes. Understand the philosophy of life. Apply in own life and try to spread among friends. In your bar library you talk so many things. Why not talk about this? Yes. (laughter) Paropakāra. That is paropakāra. Everyone is in darkness. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). They do not know the goal of life. Simply by some false hope they are accepting this material thing, material life, as everything. Durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ. External energy. This is the problem. Making plans to solve. No plan will solve this problem.
Prabhupāda: Mahābhārata. That very name suggests history. Bigger India. Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Where is Mahāṁsa?
Prabhaviṣṇu: There is one verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, in Chapter Seven,
- icchā-dveṣa samutthena
- dvandva-mohena bhārata
- sarva-bhūtāni saṁmohaṁ
- sarge yānti parantapa
- (BG 7.27)
The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā-dveṣa. He becomes envious of the Lord. Many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept...
Prabhupāda: You know that? There are so many rascals, they say, "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says, "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat. So now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort... My philosophy is that American and Indian, American money and Indian culture, combine together; the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent... (break)
Jagadīśa: "...International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian patterns. In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentleman and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras, and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birth place of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh, and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas, gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves, (indistinct) life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students, and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama.' ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and (indistinct) popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugar cane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand, wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides (indistinct) daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON's plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand..."
Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for... The description is...
Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? (indistinct) ...ślokas with you (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa mantra?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara... It is not published, but I have translated.
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to... With your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and...
Prabhupāda: So? You can go to the ārati, kīrtana. Go. You also go. (break)
Devotee: ...the argument that after saying "surrender to Kṛṣṇa," and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man.
Prabhupāda: It is an argument like this, that "You have gone to a physician for curing your disease. Why you are not cured?" This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be... Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect? Immediately you go to the physician. A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says, "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Foreigners.
Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Therefore their fathers are charging me that this man knows something, mesmerism. (laughter)
Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Brainwash.
Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts?
Prabhupāda: Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Mr. Malhotra: Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Prabhupāda: Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Refusal, let them refuse, and who cares for them?
Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists.
Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science that "We are trying." What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say, "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that "I am trying." Is that science?
Amogha-līlā: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break)
Prabhupāda: Ask the leaders! I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen and as soon as they come here, they become varalasai. (?) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything.
Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. (break) ...elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) ...means vairāgya-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga (CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga. That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them... My wife disagreed. Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business. (break) I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care? Guest (1): God will give them... Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "civil suicide." Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide. Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do. So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya... (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there.
Indian man: What about so many saints who are preaching yoga and religion all over the world?
Prabhupāda: Anyone who does not know the science, they are not saint. They are cheaters. If they do not know the science, what is spiritual life, what is material life. So their speaking is simply cheating. Therefore we should state the standard, Bhagavad-gītā, the ācāryas. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said ācāryopāsanam. Take the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya. So there must be standard. It is... Some of them are manufacturing some spiritual life. Just like Vivekananda did, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. Is there any such word in our Vedic śāstras? Daridra-nārāyaṇa? Nārāyaṇa has become daridra? One has to worship daridra-nārāyaṇa.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hari-śauri: The reason for the Mela is because there was some drops of nectar from the...
Prabhupāda: It is actually a religious conference. All the different groups, they gather in that holy place, and they propagate their philosophy, discussion, like that. India is country of religion. They know how spiritual life more important than this material life. That is India. Now they are diverting their attention to the material; otherwise whole India, they are for spiritual life. They don't care for material ... This material life is brought from Western countries, these railways, these..., so many things, bridges and so on, so on.
Mr. Asnani: Oh, I was taking sometime in literary sense. So it was sometimes confusing me.
Prabhupāda: No, it is literally, that yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. He, spiritualist person, he knows, that "What is the use of the sense gratification? The sense gratification is there in the cats and dogs. Why I am wasting in this way?" That is awakened. What is the difference? A man is having sex life in a very nice apartment, very decorated and nice cot. He is enjoying sex life, that "I am advanced civili..." And the dog is enjoying sex life on the street in presence of everyone. But the enjoyment of sex life is the same. There is no difference either for the dog or the man. So the spiritualistic man, he says that "Why shall I waste my time in sex enjoyment? This is enjoyed by the dogs and cats. I have got this human form of life for spiritual advancement." So saṁyamī: "Stop this nonsense. Let me cultivate spiritual life." Saṁyamī. Saṁyamī means sense gratification stopped. That is saṁyamī. And he is not saṁyamī. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. Because he's not saṁyamī, his sense are uncontrolled, so he's opening the path of hellish condition of life. The business is the same—āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam—based on this maithuna, sex life. So you'll find the fly is doing the same thing, and the dog is doing the same thing, and the human being is also doing the same thing, and the king of heaven, he is doing the same thing. The business is the same. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Only the body is different. But they are thinking that "If in the body of Indra, I can have sex with Śacīdevi, that is advancement." He does not think that the sex life with Śacīdevī or the street dog, it is same. There is no difference. And that is jāgarti. That is awakened. There is one word. Where it is, I don't remember. Maithunam agaram ajñāḥ. This is.... This material life is a term of imprisonment of imprisonment in sex. Just like imprisonment means you are detained in a place allotted by the government, you cannot go out. So here, this material world, the imprisonment is the sex. You cannot go out.
Guest (10): Is it, just to satisfy their own ego that they are doing in this way?
Prabhupāda: Some reason anyābhilāṣitā. He has got other purpose, not the purpose of preaching Bhagavad-gītā. That is called anyābhilāṣa. So people are infested with anyābhilāṣa, everyone. Therefore he is living this material life. But that should be zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). That you have to... That is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). If you have got other purposes within yourself, then you'll never understand Bhagavad-gītā. This is bhakti.
- anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
- jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam
- ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-
- śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttama
- (Brs. 1.1.11)
And Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti. And this is bhakti, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167). So they have got full of anyābhilāṣa, jñāna-karma, so they are not bhaktas; they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They are talking nonsense. This is the position. Because they are not bhaktas-karmī, jñāni, yogi—they have got some purpose. Karmī is flatly that "We want this enjoyment." And jñānī, he says superficially that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The jagat is mithyā. So we don't want this jagat, but I want mukti, to become one with the Supreme." So that is also anyābhilāṣa. He does not know it. He's thinking that "I'm better than these karmīs. The karmīs have got anyābhilāṣa. So I have rejected that. Brahma-satya. I have taken to Brahman." But that is also anyābhilāṣa because he wants to become one with the Brahman. Subtle. And yogis, they also want mystic power to show magic. So he also anyābhilāṣitā-pūrṇa. So none of them are fit to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā will be understood by him who is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Brs. 1.1.11). But none of these karmīs, jñānis, yogis, they are anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167). They're anyābhilāṣitā-pūrṇam. They cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. It is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "You are My very confidential friend. I am talking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Give up all this nonsense. You simply surrender." Guhyad guhyata—what is that? Find out. Guhyatamam. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3).
Rāmeśvara: But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us.
Prabhupāda: No, you save so much barbers' expenses. (laughter)
Hari-śauri: So much inconvenience for washing.
Rāmeśvara: These are misunderstandings that confuse people.
Prabhupāda: The whole life is misunderstanding, material life.
Rāmeśvara: But we want them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's the main thing.
Prabhupāda: Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely."
Rāmeśvara: They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: We say... We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness."
Rāmeśvara: Not change your dress, but change your consciousness.
Prabhupāda: No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified.
Prabhupāda: That is also qualification. That is also qualification. Some way or other, if there is some service, it goes to the credit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya. The foolish person may not know that "I am imperceptibly advancing even during my, this material life," but Kṛṣṇa takes. Just like Pūtanā. She gave service by allowing her breast to be sucked by Kṛṣṇa. Although her intention was to kill, but Kṛṣṇa took her as mother: "She has given Me service." This is Kṛṣṇa. "This rascal does not know that nobody can kill Me, but on some plea or other, she has given her breast open to be sucked by Me, and I have done it. Therefore she is My mother. She must get the promotion like Mother Yaśodā." This is Kṛṣṇa. He is very anxious to deliver us. So any little service done, He accepts. "All right, come on. You are accepted." This is Kṛṣṇa. Little service. "Let him do something." So kind. He comes for serving you.(?) He speaks, "Rascal, you do this. Surrender to Me and do something. You'll be relived from this janma-mṛtyu vyādhi." "No." Hog, dogs, they are—what is called—obstinate. The hog, living in dirty place, eating stool, and if you try to deliver from this, he'll not: "No. No. I am living here happily. Why you are disturbing me?" This is the... "Why you are trying to wash my brain? This is very good life."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In order to accept this, they will have to rewrite the laws.
Prabhupāda: This is the actual... Now, apart from the scriptural injunction, if one comes to the argument, then such kind of father is there in the animal society also. Cats and dogs, they also beget children, but they cannot relieve the child from the cycle of birth and death. And Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you have to see what is the actual distress in this material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So in this life you are my father, and next time I become a cat or dog, so who cares for this father? I get another father. So who knows this law? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). The laws of nature is going on, and everything is happening. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). We are getting a type of body according to karma.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) But he admitted. (laughter)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The general idea is just like this page, "Chant and Be Happy." But there is practically no devotees shown. The whole idea is that if you show devotees, no one will be able to identify with the devotee. So they're showing persons in material life, and each one of them is giving his opinion of why he chants. "Chanting makes me calmer," "Chanting makes me more perceptive," "Chanting makes me more open-minded." So these are all... (break) ...the ultimate goal of chanting is to instill love of God, but that thing is never mentioned. (break)
Brahmānanda: Then he would approve. That was the test.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This article has changed very much from the original Back to Godhead article. This article here is issue number, I think, 14, many years ago, about the anchor in the water. It was very Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now it has been made...
Hari-śauri: No one's going to derive any Kṛṣṇa conscious meaning from that article. It's two whole pages, with picture and a little bit of writing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's practically no Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Bhavānanda: In the whole magazine, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we feel that there's very little Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No Lord Caitanya's picture. Lord Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa's picture never appear in the whole magazine. They've taken it out.
Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is your magazine.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No picture.
Ādi-keśava: And even the pictures of the devotees, they're not recognizable as devotees.
Hari-śauri: They put a picture of the devotees this big at the bottom of the page.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just like you asked that there be a picture of the temple... (break) ...you can't even recognize it... (break)
Prabhupāda: Curb down this.
Prabhupāda: So let us take advantage of it and make a very perfect institution so that people may take advantage. Otherwise... There is a Bengali song, māyār bośe jāccho bhese', Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi. Everyone is being washed away by the waves of this material energy. And their attempt to save themselves... That's... Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like in light, during the rainy season, so many worms and flies, they come and fall in the fire, phat-phat-phat. They do not know. This is the very description, in the Eleventh Chapter. So we do not condemn material life, but without spiritual understanding, this dog race for material comforts, it may be temporary, very nice, but ultimately it is being carried away by the waves of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). Let them study Bhagavad-gītā seriously. Let there be serious student to understand, to explain, and everything will be... There must be sadācāra.
Prabhupāda: More than. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa mattaḥ. Mattaḥ means mad, drunkard, and pramattaḥ means more than mad. So generally people, they have become mad after sense enjoyment. Everyone is busy for sense enjoyment. This is material life. And when they are fed up, no more available, so they become tyāgī-frustration that "Grapes are sour." The jackal jumped over to get the grapes, but when he could not obtain it, then he rejects, "Ah, what is use of the grapes? It is sour." So karmīs, they are pramattaḥ, mad after enjoying, and jñānīs, being fed up, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The world is useless." So this is going on. The karmīs, they want to enjoy this material world, and the jñānīs, they are little advanced. They are... They are fed up, rather. They want to enjoy by becoming one with the Supreme. So there is want. The karmīs want to enjoy this world, and the jñānīs want also. That is demand, mukti. Mukti means to become one with the Supreme Brahman. And the yogis, they want siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti, īśitā... They also want. Therefore our Vaiṣṇava poet, Kavirāja Gosvāmī, he says, bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta: "Those who are after something—either enjoyment of this material world or enjoyment of spiritually becoming one or to have some siddhis—they want something, so they cannot be happy." Because there is demand, "I want this." Maybe I want better thing than you, but I want. I am in need. So therefore those who are in need, they cannot be happy. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta, kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma (CC Madhya 19.149). Kṛṣṇa-bhakta doesn't want anything. Ataeva śānta. So he is... He is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: (CC Madhya 22.42) "I don't want. I am fully satisfied." Dhruva Mahārāja, he went to the forest, underwent very severe austerity, and when Lord Viṣṇu appeared before him—"Take benediction, whatever you like"—he said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I have no more demand. I am fully satisfied." So this is the teaching. If we want to be fully satisfied, without any demand for sense gratification, then we become happy, and that is available in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. We don't want. People want money and many followers, nice wife, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu refuses.
Hari-śauri: Yeah, immediately.
Prabhupāda: Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣāt. Nobody dies without illicit sex or intoxication. Anartha, unnecessarily they are habituated. There is no need, but by bad association you have practiced this, habituated, cannot be given up. LSD. Government spends so much, millions of dollars, that "These hippies may give up." Not successful. See practically. And as soon as they come to our camp, they give up. Is it not?
Jayapatākā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣāt. In every step anartha. This material life means anartha. There is no need, but anādi karama phale. Due to our karma we are put into this unfavorable condition, and it is very difficult to come out of it. But if you take to bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, immediately... Who is taking, without any force... How practical it is. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje.
Prabhupāda: The dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa... (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). Generally people take to religion for improving economic condition. It is going on. They go to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." And they'll go to the temple: "O mother Kālī, give me this. O father Śiva, give me this." So they take it for economic development, dharma. But that is is not the proper way. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Dharma should be executed for stopping this material condition of life, apavarga. Pavarga. This material life is pavarga. Pa means pariśrama, hard labor. And pha means phena, so hard labor that foams comes. Pa, pha, ba. And still it is baffled, vyartha. Bha: and always fear. And ma means death. So pa, pha, ba, bha, ma. So dharma means to stop this pa, pha, ba, bha, ma.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is apa...?
Prabhupāda: Varga. It is pa-varga. There are five vargas, ka-varga, ca-varga, and the pa-varga. Very scientific. A-pa-varga. And that is the meaning. But these rascals, they have taken to increase the pa-varga, that śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). The basic principle of dharma is wrong. Dharma is meant for stopping this pa-varga. And they are increasing this pa-varga.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They argue that "We are getting people to live longer now than they used to live."
Prabhupāda: After all, you'll have to change. In a false platform, to live longer, is that very great profit?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, as we improve material life...
Prabhupāda: No, where is improved? You are going to be a dog, suppose. Where is your improvement?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's an illusion.
Prabhupāda: They lose.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are thinking that we are improving, but actually we are not solving the problems.
Śatadhanya: You said the other day that if we analyze what the scientists have done, we will see that they have actually done nothing beneficial, no benefit. Whatever they have done has no benefit, simply some comfort of the body. But what benefit it has?
Prabhupāda: Just like they have improved... A man is going to die. By oxygen, by other, other, he may live for a few minutes more. They say, "This is improvement."
Akṣayānanda: Yajñād bhavati sam...
Prabhupāda: Ah, yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). All prescription of material life, spiritual life, social life, political life, religious life, artistic life—Bhagavad-gītā is full of knowledge. At least in India there must be an institution that is strictly following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. This is my institution. We don't want anything more, other help. We simply request them that "Give some of our men permanent residentship. We shall guide it(?)." That they'll institute...(?) What help... What is the harm? Have we got...
Mr. Myer: It is abominable. If they help ISKCON, then there are all the churches in India. They'll want to plead...
Prabhupāda: Then it is not helping ISKCON.
Mr. Myer: No, you see, they're...
Prabhupāda: It is not helping ISKCON.
| Page Title: | Material life (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 05 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=136, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 136 |