Prabhupāda: The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇḍita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as choudhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu.
Leaders (Conversations, 1968 - 1973)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu had all these facilities. He was learned, very honored young man in His country; He had many followings. In one incidence we can understand how beloved leader He was. The Kazi challenged His saṅkīrtana movement and first times warned Him not to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and when He did not care for it, then he ordered that, er, that mṛdaṅga should be broken. So the constables came and broke the mṛdaṅgas. This information was given to Lord Caitanya, and He ordered civil disobedience. He was the first man in the history of India who started this civil disobedience movement. It is not Gandhi who is the originator of civil disobedience; it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said that "Defy the order of the Kazi." Kazi means magistrate. So "This evening we shall go at the Kazi's house in hundreds of thousands, with mṛdaṅga and kīrtana." So simply by His order many hundreds of thousands young men—not young men; young, old, all kind of men-gathered, and... The point is just how popular leader He was. Even in His young age, when He was only twenty years old, how popular He was.
Prabhupāda: Now, if you cooperate, then I can change the whole thing in your country. They will be very happy. Their everything will be very nice. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice. Provided you cooperate. Nobody is cooperating. Simply these boys, they have kindly come to me and cooperating. So my movement is progressing, but very slowly. But if the leaders of the American people, they come and they try to understand and they try to introduce this system, oh, your country will be the nicest country in the world.
Prabhupāda: So please try to help us. This movement is very nice. It will help the humanity. It will help your country, the whole human society. It is a genuine movement, there is nothing bluff, nothing cheating. It is authorized. So I'll request you because...
Journalist: Authorized by whom?
Prabhupāda: Authorized from Kṛṣṇa.
Journalist: Is there in India a licensing body by the state for people to preach or to... How in the heck would you say it here?
Prabhupāda: It was not there because in India there are so many churches, and they're supposed to be very saintly person. So simply to become a disciple of a saintly person is sufficient certificate. Just like in your country, marriage requires certificate. In India still, there is no certificate. The boys and girls, they are seated before the relatives and priest and elderly persons. They are offered. I am doing that. There is no certificate. But still their connection is lifelong. What certificate will do? That ceremony is so nice, the wife takes "My husband for life" and the husband takes wife, "She is my companion for life." They cannot separate. There is no history in India that there was a certificate issued. No. But still, their connection is so nice, that life long. Now, they are being westernized, especially I am very sorry to say that lately our so-called westernized leaders they are introducing this Hindu code bill, this marriage certificate, this and that. But formerly they weren't existing.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the purest. Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhama pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). "You are the paraṁ brahma, Supreme Brahman." Brahman, every living entity is Brahman but He is paraṁ brahma, the leader of the Brahman. Just like the president is the first citizen of the state. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also a living entity, but supreme living entity.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) And also it is a fact that many of our students have come from the hippies.
Haṁsadūta: Almost all of them. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So they are our best candidates. So you can advertise that "We are not hippies, but we are converting many hippies to the sane condition of life." That's a fact. They are searching after something better, but they have no leader.
Miss Rose: Yes, that's true. That's it.
Prabhupāda: They have no leader. Now, if they come to us seriously, they get the right thing. But that is also their defect. When we propose, "Come and take this Kṛṣṇa," they don't want. They want that marijuana.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So engage all yourselves in the service of Kṛṣṇa. It is very pleasing, and what is called encouraging, enlivening. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is frustration. That stage is coming to your country. Therefore the boys are becoming hippies. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is—that is natural-frustration. There is a good example in our country, one Mr. C.R. Das. He was a great leader, next to Gandhi, important political leader. So he was on the topmost of... He was lawyer, barrister. He was earning fifty thousand dollars monthly, very rich man. And he was making charity, and he was spending like thing (anything). He was drunkard number one, woman-hunter number one, and everything. Because he had money he could enjoy everything. But he was not happy. So one day he was sitting with his wife. Just like in the street, he was looking over. So his wife asked him—his name was Chittaranjan—"Chittaranjan, you are earning so much. You are spending. People are very much fond of you. You are a great leader. Why you always remain morose? What do you want to be? You have got now everything." So at that time one mendicant, a sannyāsī was passing. So Chittaranjan said, "I want to be like him. Then I will be happy. I don't want to enjoy. I want to beggar, to be beggar-like." You see? So that time is coming to your country.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them do that. Don't come to the ritualistic performances. Let them chant as far as possible and see the result. This is the easiest method of transcendental realization. But if you recommend, oh, that will be accepted by many. And if we...
Allen Ginsberg: No. You see, I recommend it quite a bit but it isn't accepted by very many.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no. Then I say, you are American. You are popular leader. You have got some voice. I am a foreigner. I have come new, and who cares for me? That is a different thing.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, that's why I'm asking you very specifically cause I've been chanting for five years, six years. Since 1963, '64. Since the fall of 1963, I've been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on this continent, beginning in Vancouver in July, 1963. And I am finding there is a limitation to how many people will join that chant. Or I have found a limitation. Part of the limitation is the fact that it is strange and new to people here.
Prabhupāda: But there is no loss.
Prabhupāda: The idea is that anything which is, I mean to say, accepted by the leading persons, ordinary persons follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas. Śreṣṭhas means leading persons. Ācarati, acts. Whatever leading persons act, people in general follow them. Sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute. If the leading person says, "It is nice. It is all right," the others also accept it. So by the grace of God, Kṛṣṇa, you are leaders. Thousands of young men follow you. They like you. So if you give them something actually nice, the face of the world will change. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not a manufactured new thing. It is, from historical point of view, at least, it is five thousand years old. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (4): Mahārāja, don't you think that monarchy (unclear)
Prabhupāda: No, that is also not possible. And therefore we are training people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And when the Kṛṣṇa conscious people will elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders there will be peace and prosperity. And now, because the minority is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they cannot elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders and therefore havoc is being played.
Prabhupāda: Our conception of God is that He is a transcendental person. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara means Lord. The Supreme Lord is a person. As you are person, He is also person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānāṁ. He is the leader, and we are all led. Or He is the master; we are the servitors. That is our self-realization, to understand that "I am eternal servant of God." In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ: (BG 15.7) "Eternally all the living entities are My part and parcels." So as the part and parcel of anything is to serve the cause of the whole, similarly, all living entities, their only business is to serve the Supreme. That is all.
Prabhupāda: Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Therefore your, this so-called Gītā society is not bona fide. At least even in ordinary feature, suppose if there is political meeting, you keep Gandhi, this photo, Jawaharlal Nehru's photo because they are the political leaders. You are preaching Bhagavad-gītā, Gītā Samītī, and there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (1): There is little misunderstanding, that Gītā Jayantī is for...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer me this question. Then you go to Gītā Jayantī. That, your Samītī is Gītā Samītī and there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) The servant was crying, "Oh! I am dying, I am dying, I am dying." So I immediately called ambulance and took her to the hospital. Then, when I went there, there were so many neophyte doctors. They experimented, and they said, "Immediate operation is required." "Why?" They gave us some technical terms. Then their leader doctor came. He said, "All right. Let us see this night. Then, next morning, we shall operate." So I asked him, "I can go? He may remain in your charge?" "Yes." So I went, came back. And when I was absent, another servant of the neighbor, he told to my wife, that "Babuji..." Babuji means master. "...it is unnecessarily he has taken to hospital. He was drunk, and he was crying like that. (laughter) He drank."
Prabhupāda: Meat-eating, there was no question. Just like in my life, I do not know what is meat-eating, do not know womanizing(?) or illicit sex life, because we are trained in that way. So due to foreign domination, they were killed; and after independence, these rascal leaders, they are killing it: "What is the wrong in meat-eating? What is the wrong in drinking?" They are canvassing: "Eat chickens, eat eggs,." This is going on. So at the present moment there is great propaganda from the side of the government and others to kill India's original culture. So when Americans go there and preach and they see, "Oh, so nice Vaiṣṇava, so nice devotee and so pure," they will become attracted, because that is their original culture. At heart they want to do that, but by artificial means they are being forced to accept something else.
Prabhupāda: So there is good chance of preaching in India in this respect. We want some men to preach there. It will be great work. So I think in each center, from each center you can contribute one man, and some of you leaders may go. There are already, organize. People are very much attracted. They are wanting..., giving us money, they want to give us place, there is no scarcity of food, there is no question. But this Immigration Department, they will harass. But we have to manage somehow or other. We shall have to keep always at least 100 men in India. So how to do it? That we will consider and do it. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Now chalk out your plan how to preach nicely all over the world.
Prabhupāda: We require help from personalities like you, because it is very important movement, checking a great mistake in the modern world. Modern civilization is very risky. Risky in this sense: that the human form of life is an opportunity for self-realization, but our leaders, they are miseducating that "You are this body." A basic mistake. But I am not this body, but just like you are sitting there, if I take account of your shirt and coat only, not you as a person, then there is a great mistake. Similarly, the modern civilization, education, everything is based on this bodily concept of life. But actually we are not body. Body is my shirt and coat. Mind, intelligence and ego, that is the shirt, finer dress. And this five element body—earth, water, fire, air, ether—this is gross.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently, I was in India. I held two meetings, I mean continued for ten days, everywhere, and twenty to thirty thousand people were attending daily. The India's position is that they're naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious, but, at the present moment, by the so-called leader, they want to replace this Kṛṣṇa consciousness into material consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool-headed, that "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right. There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization.
Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all, realize, then challenge. (break) Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the special distinction, that their life, human life must be based on dharma, religion. They have rejected dharma. That is another type of frustration because the so-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. And therefore people become, revolted: "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Other countries all they have got high respect for India as spiritual land. But we are killing, our present government and so-called leaders, killing that state. This is regrettable. They could hold this Bhārata-varṣa to the topmost summit all over the India if after independence they would have organizedly preached Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedic culture. That is my mission. Now whatever you may think of Bhārata-varṣa, outside, India is known as a poor, poorest country, because our ministers go there to beg.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is the version of Bhagavad-gītā. "If anyone comes back to Me," mām upetya kaunteya... Mām upetya tu kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti, "he does not come back again." Where? In this place, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This place is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but he has become fooled, befooled by so-called leaders. This is miserable life, material life. So duḥkhālayam... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that this place is duḥkhālayam, it is a place of miseries. And that also aśāśvatam. You cannot make a compromise, "All right, let it be miserable. I shall remain as American or Indian." No. That you also cannot do.
Prabhupāda: Unlimited qualities, but for our understanding, Rūpa Gosvāmī only discussed sixty-four. Just see, that lady was speaking that she speaks to thousands and thousands of people. How ignorant she is about God. She was inquiring, "Kṛṣṇa is not..." That means she cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. And she is leader, thousands of people she is speaking. What is the use of her speaking if she has no clear idea? This is going on. Useless speaking. In India also, so many fools, they are accepted as very perfect. Just like Gandhi, take Gandhi. Where was Gandhi? In spiritual consciousness, he is nothing. Nothing, no value. But if we say in the public, they will be angry, "Oh!" But actually there is no value, no spiritual value. He is known all over the world as a great spiritualist. He was a moralist, that's all. That is not a qualification for understanding God.
Prabhupāda: People are already mad, and the so-called rascal leaders making them more and more mad. That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). So-called scientists, so-called religious leaders, all rascals. If we say that all rascals, we are only intelligent, (laughter) they will not be very happy. But that will be fact, try to understand it.
Prabhupāda: Because the United States, they are our best customer. A businessman goes to a place... Just like you have come here. Why you have come here? Wherever there is best possibility of doing your business, there you must go. I went to United States because I know these people are not poverty-stricken. And our Indian people, they are now, they have been trained to think like that—they are poverty-stricken. Actually, they are not poverty-stricken, but the leaders have educated them that, "You are all poverty-stricken." This is India's position. So far I knew that it would not be successful in India. The government will not help. The public is educated in a different way. They are after technology.
Prabhupāda: They make radio, television, they ask the same question. They do not know what question they can ask. The real..., it is meant for the philosophy of life, but they, they do not know.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why this ordinary question to be repeatedly made and I answer? A waste of time. This is a serious movement. One should be responsible men, leaders of the society. If you want to take some benefit out of this movement, they should question.
Prabhupāda: Here is the formula, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They actually see how we are changing the character.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So, the leaders of the society, if it is serious, will adopt this, in the educational system, in their private life. In that way they shall ask some question, then it will benefit. Otherwise it will be simply a show.
Prabhupāda: For them we have written so many books. Not only that. It is not that we are simply chanting and dancing. If you are philosopher, if you are scholar, if you are scientist, we can give you proof in a scientific way, in a philosophical way, scholarly way; therefore these books are there. So my only request is that all the leaders of the society, they should come forward, study this movement and take to it. That will be beneficial. We don't ask blindly, just like one follows some faith or type of religion blindly, and after sometimes they give it up. No.
Prabhupāda: Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community. The idea is nobody should starve. I have to see whether the leader is also given proper food. Just like people generally save foodstuff from the attack of other animals. But spiritual communism... (break) We ought to make them happy. We want to see everyone is happy. That is our mission. Actually all our students who are presently working with us they are feeling happiness... (indistinct) So everyone will be happy if they take to this movement. We want to see that everyone is happy. That is our mission. We don't want to exploit others.
Prabhupāda: Give up your all nonsense duty. Kṛṣṇa says. So your first duty is to give up your nonsense duty. (laughter) That is your first duty. That "You have concocted so many duties, but please give up all these ideas." That is your first duty. Everyone has manufactured his duty. Just like in our country all the leaders, they thought, "This is my duty," and every other country also, "take to politics." Huh? But people did not become happy. Rather, they were so unhappy that a great leader like Gandhi was killed. But he thought, "I am doing my duty." But why he was killed?
Prabhupāda: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." I am a member of the political party and am always thinking of Mr. Such and such, my leader. I become a staunch follower of that leader, worship him and offer obeisances to him. So many people are sacrificing their lives simply by following a political leader, and for party superiority they are doing so many things, always thinking of party's activities, always offering obeisances and worshiping the party's principles. If all these things are transferred to God, they become good. God says, "Think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer obeisances unto Me." If we transfer these activities to God, we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge has begun from wrong conception of life.
Jayatīrtha: They see that they are being cheated, yet they are cheating others also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda says, there are so many departments of knowledge in all the universities, but the most important department of knowledge, what is the purpose of human life, is left out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...leaders. General public, they do no know, they are ignorant, blind. But the leaders are also blind. So blind leader leading other blind men, that means disaster. That is happening.
Prabhupāda: That education. And no restriction of sex even amongst the leaders.
Jayatīrtha: And all advanced contraceptive methods.
Prabhupāda: This Jawaharlal(?) was implicated with his sister, and some say with his daughter also, and he was the prime minister. This is their position. In our Indian system, education is mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: every woman except your own wife, all mothers. That is education. Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā (SB 9.19.17). Either your mother or sister or daughter, you don't live together alone. These are education. And they're freely advocating sex life. What is the (indistinct) difference? In India they're doing, so many leaders. (indistinct), it can be done. The leaders are speaking while doing that. No discrimination, just like hog. No discrimination.
Prabhupāda: We shall make a guest house for visitors. You are visitor now.
Devotee (3): Then you will have two temples in Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We can take all the temples. (break) ...completely stop. (break) (indistinct), he was a nonsense. This is the tendency in India also.
Indian man: Fortunately, it's not so with the great majority of people.
Prabhupāda: Not people. I am speaking of the leaders.
Indian man: Leaders. The new generation that is now coming up, they are mostly atheists.
Prabhupāda: These teachers came with that (indistinct), although they have been (indistinct). (break)
Prabhupāda: No. If that steel, cement, and bricks are meant for preaching, then it is all right. But if there is difficulty, then sometimes we become absorbed in steel-cement. Steel-cement is not bad, provided it is meant for preaching. That is also spiritual. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgya. But because we are materialistic, sometimes steel and cement attracts us more than Kṛṣṇa. So this Bombay affair is giving me a little depression. Because so highly thought of, now these people they do not want to stay there. Just like this Mahaṁsa, Dinanātha, they do not wish to return. Something has to be done.
Gurudāsa: Actually it is not only one or two isolated cases.
Prabhupāda: There are many. I have studied all of them.
Gurudāsa: If it was one or two isolated cases, one can think maybe it is personal difficulty, but it is many cases.
Prabhupāda: No, this is due to mismanagement. It is due to mismanagement. Proper leader.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). I think you know Sanskrit. Samavetā yuyutsavaḥ māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva kim akurvata sañjaya (BG 1.1). Even a great leader, political leader, he has interpreted kurukṣetra as this body. So where is the dictionary where kurukṣetra means this body? But because he's a big political leader that gītā is going on. Kurukṣetra means this body. Pāṇḍava means the five senses. In this way (break) ...they cannot (indistinct) I may tell you frankly. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and how he can prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā? Then he has to drag some interpretation out of his own way. But because he's a big leader the people are misled.
Prabhupāda: Because paṇḍita does not see the outward dress, paṇḍita sees the inside, who is putting on the dress. Therefore, without misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā, or being misled by so-called big, big leaders, if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it will be very nice, beneficial to everyone. That is my, not opinion, but is the fact. Things should be taken as it is. Call a spade a spade. Now, interpretation is required when things are not clear. When things are not very clear, not easily understood... There is example in Sanskrit grammar, gaṅgāyāṁ ghoṣa bali(?). The neighborhood of ghoṣa family is on the Ganges. Now, on the Ganges-Ganges is water—how there can be a village? Now, here interpretation required.
Prabhupāda: And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the explanation of Vedānta-sūtra. So people are in darkness about this great knowledge and the science of God, all over the world. They are misled. They're being misled. Misled in this way, that this human form of life is specially meant for understanding God. The animals are not very (indistinct), but the present leaders they're keeping all the human being in the animal condition of life. Their chance of becoming conscious about God is being sacrificed, being misled, by so-called economic development, plans. All this economic development means, they're meant for this bodily comforts. Any department of knowledge at the present moment, they're simply aiming at giving some artificial comfort to this body. But these rascals, they do not care to know that however I keep this body comfortably, I'll have to give it up.
Prabhupāda: Now if they do not offer, obey the orders of the sannyāsī, then naturally... But that thing should be brought to the notice of higher or some official, president. Then steps should be taken, that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave. It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī, leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations. And then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times please... Like that.
Prabhupāda: Gandhi started the movement from Africa. South Africa.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gandhi was attempted to be killed in South Africa.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. One time he was crossing the street and the man beaten him so severely. He could have died. One Englishman saved him. He was attempted to be killed. After this incidence, when Gandhi returned to India, he became leader automatically. (pause) When Dr. Kalidasa-nama...
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We say it is nonsense. In future, it is all right. You say, "In future...", but where is your method for future prosperity? That I am talking... If a child is getting proper education, then we can say that he has got a good future. But if the child is wrongly directed, then where is his future? A patient who has gone to the physician and undergoing treatment, he can expect in future he will be cured. But if he's lying down on the bed, and does not know who is physician, then where is his future? He has no future. So all these leaders, they're rascals, and who are following these rascals, where is his future? He has no future. They're all rascals. Anyone accepting: "This rascal is a great scientist." So his future is doomed.
Prabhupāda: So that's all right, but, at the present moment, you are rascal. Somebody when come, intelligent, that is another thing, but you are rascal. So why you are leading, cheating others? That is our protest, that you know that you are a rascal, and you are cheating others to become leader. That is our protest. Why should you cheat others? Mūḍhaḥ. If he says that: "How do you know that I am rascal?" Because you do not know God. Therefore you are rascal. Mūḍhaḥ. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). If you are, would have known what is God, then you would have surrendered to Him. Then you are intelligent. But because you do not surrender, you do not know what is God, therefore you are a rascal. This is the definition of rascal. Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. And intelligent means one who surrenders. He's intelligent. One who does not, he's rascal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. You have to worship somebody superior. Now it is up to you to select who is that superior. But the principle is there. Now so many political parties, they have selected one god. Somebody has selected Churchill. Somebody has selected Gandhi. Somebody has selected somebody, somebody. But they must have to select. Our proposition is: "If you are selecting somebody to worship, why not the perfect? Why you select the imperfect?" That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have to do it. You have to select somebody as your leader. You cannot do without it. So the answer is that if you are selecting somebody to worship, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is nobody superior than Me." Then why not go to the best person? Why should we go to the inferior?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is none complete. Except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro, philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to, if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail. So this is our policy. So if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: There are millions and millions of fishes, they are not thrown away, because they have surrendered to the sea, under the protection of the sea. The sea is protecting them. Just see. Similarly you surrender, you will be protected. Kṛṣṇa says that. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: (BG 18.66) Don't be worried. I will give you protection. You surrender unto Me." And the scientists say, "Oh, what is God. These are all nonsense, primitive ideas. Primitive." They have become advanced. Therefore they should give up the idea of God. Now India is declared famine. What these leaders will do?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are fighting each other.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is asking you that "You realize Me." "No, I cannot see You." "No, why cannot see you? Here is water. You are drinking water." "Yes." "I am water, I am the taste of the water. Why don't you see Me?" Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ: "I am the sunshine." So who is not seeing the sunshine? Why the rascals says, "I do not see God"? God says, "I am here." But he says, "I do not see." Liar. If you are in my front, if I say, "Here I am," if you say, "No, sir, I don't see you," what is this? Similarly, God is before you in the form of sunshine.
Prabhupāda: No. (pause, japa) You and Dr. Rao just make a combination, world-touring. I shall give you all expenditure. And go to the universities, scientists, and talk with them. Our kīrtana party also will go. We challenge all scientists, "Come on." We shall pay all expenditure. Ask Dr. Rao to come and join. Just like in Calcutta University, all the students... No, one leader student, he came. He talked about economic development, and he said that "Our students did not derive any faith by your theological statement." So I told them that "Because you are all rascals, therefore you could not." I told them freely.
Prabhupāda: The so-called modern leader, he is a paśu, animal. And who exalts them? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: other lower animals like dogs, the hogs, śva-viḍ-varāha, camel and ass. So one big animal is being praised by these kinds of animals. So all the population without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have been described as dogs, hogs, camel and ass. So when they vote for another animal, big animal, so this is their position. They are big animal, praised by the dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not praised by any intelligent man. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are animals. These animals, they do not know the actual fact, and they are passing on as leaders, professors, scientists. Why they should be allowed? There must be some protest against these men. They have no real knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Then there are so many things they do not know. Still, they are scientists? And they are passing on as leaders of the society. Everything is "I do not know," and he is a leader, scientist. What is this? A child, and he is passing on as teacher.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes the problem is too serious. They take it just lightly.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. The same thing, that the rabbits close the eyes. Yes. Monkeys. And when the monkeys face a tiger, immediately he closes his eyes and the tiger immediately attacks him. So it is like that. He cannot solve the problem—"All right, let it go on." And that is the position. Because our real problem is death. Nobody wants to die. So the scientist cannot give any relief from death.
Prabhupāda: So he fled away, and all the animals said, "What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?" All, even lion became surprised. "We have not seen this." "So who are you, sir?" "I am sent by God to rule over you." "Oh?" So they began to worship him as God, as leader. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, "Wa, wa," but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to "Wa, wa." Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense. We can detect that "Here is a jackal." So we have to expose them. They are not leader; they are jackals. So jackals cannot anymore rule over.
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. They are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre..., in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā: their knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā.
Prabhupāda: So I told him that "You have created your own god, Lenin. And we have got our own God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, the principle of accepting somebody as God is there, in your philosophy and in my philosophy. So that you cannot avoid. Your communistic philosophy cannot avoid the conception of God, the leader." Just like in Buddha philosophy also, there is the conception of God, of Lord Buddha.
Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader. And we are to obey His orders. This is our philosophy. So if you do not obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if you obey the orders of Lord Buddha, or somebody obeys the orders of Lenin, the principle is there that you have to follow the orders of somebody. Now, you select Lenin, Kṛṣṇa or Buddha or Gandhi or anyone. That is a different thing. But the principle—to accept one leader and follow his leadership—is there everywhere.
Prabhupāda: The leadership you have to accept. You cannot do anything independently. You have to accept. That is our constitutional position, that we have to follow somebody. Now you select whom you shall follow. If you are following the most perfect, then you become perfect. And if you are following less perfect or imperfect, then you are imperfect. This is our philosophy. You have to follow some leader. If your leader is perfect, then you are perfect. If your leader is not perfect, then you are also not perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is... These are items. These are items. First of all you have to follow a perfect leader. Then whatever he says, that is perfect. So that peace, you have given a definition of peace. Kṛṣṇa is giving definition of peace:
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
"I am the proprietor of all the lokas," sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "I am the friend of everyone." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasām. "And I am the enjoyer of all fruitive activities." Jñātvā mām. "When one knows Me like that, he gets śānti." This is the śānti formula given by Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So if people take advantage of this instruction, as you have mentioned in your article "The Great Seers," so if we follow their instruction, the whole history of the human being can be changed. There is no difficulty. But whether the people will accept or not, that is the business of the leaders of the society. So far I think that British people, they organized very nicely the British Empire, but some way or other, it is now lost. But still, the British prestige can be elevated if actually, according to the Vedic instruction, you try to make your social construction, the political institution and economic development... Every direction is there. So you are all great historians. And there are many politicians.
Prabhupāda: The people do not know all these things. They have no idea. They have no idea, neither... Even these things are there in the Vedic literature, they are not very much interested. And practically, in the darkness, they do not know what is next... I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He, he is in charge of Indology. That gentleman told me, "Swamiji, after death there is nothing. Everything is finished." So I was surprised, that such a learned man, and he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul. These are the defects of modern civilization. Those who are leaders, teachers, they are not sufficiently in knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle. You know better than me.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī... (BG 18.65). The scholars say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varṇa-saṅkara.
Prabhupāda: You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brāhmaṇa? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.
Prabhupāda: ...there are so many paths, that Kṛṣṇa says that "Real religion is to surrender unto Me. Therefore you give up all this pseudo-religion," sarva dharman parityajya, give it up, mam ekam saranam, "just surrender unto Me, I shall give you protection from all sinful reaction." So here is God, and He is accepted by great ācāryas. In India there were great ācāryas, religious leaders. Just like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbarka, later Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and many others. They accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is God, His name, His address, His activities, everything is there. If you accept, then you will benefit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Our socialism means centering around Kṛṣṇa. Just like Russian socialism is around the ideas of Marx or Lenin. So we have got also similar leader. As the communist has got the leader, Marx or Lenin, similarly we have also got the leader, Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: There is, there is kind of socialist or communist philosophy that says that everyone must be able to do the same work in order to be equal.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it.
Prabhupāda: Simply they are wasting time. Simply. They have no perfect knowledge. They are wasting their time, and doing something just like childish, and going on as advanced in civilization, and so on, so on, so on. Now they should think. Simply on some utopian ideas they should not go. They should know, "What is the purpose of life, what is our connection with this cosmic manifestation, if... There must be some creator. Who is that creator? What is my relation with Him?" These... There are so many things. But they are neglecting. And still, they are passing on as scientist, as philosopher, as politicians and leaders.
Prabhupāda: That means... these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest. That why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people? That is our protest. You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that? Just like the professor who was speaking that by four, combination of four chemicals, life has come. And as soon as he was challenged that: "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say."
Prabhupāda: To transmigrate from one body to another. This is the authoritative statement of Bhagavad-gītā. There are so many serious students of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, his photographs were always with the Bhagavad-gītā, standing. But he was not a leader of understanding what is soul. He was simply concerned with the body. This nationalism is concerning this body. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, ijya, ijya means worshipable. On account of this bodily concept of life they have taken that this earth or the place where the body is born, that has become worshipable. That is nationalism. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. And from my body there is relationship with my wife, with my children, therefore they are my own men.
Prabhupāda: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gītā was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. What do you think, Bhadra Kṛṣṇa? The dehāntara-prāptiḥ, do they understand?
Prabhupāda: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rāma, that he did not. He took it, "Rāma" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rāma." So...
Prabhupāda: So where is the difference of philosophy? Because you have to accept one authority, leader. So you have accepted Lenin as leader; we have accepted Kṛṣṇa as leader. So where is the difference on the principle?" So he could not answer. But he very much appreciated this, that "Where is the difference between these two principles." But now we have to consider whether the leadership of Lenin is good, or the leadership of Kṛṣṇa is good. That is another thing. But you have to accept one leader. You cannot do without leader. That is not possible.
Professor: Well, well, to some extent it's possible.
Prabhupāda: No, every extent. Anyone, anyone calling... So many philosophy or ism, he has got leader. That you cannot avoid. The Buddhists, they are following Lord Buddha. Christians, they are following Lord Jesus Christ. Mohammedans, they are following Mohammed. Similarly the communists, they are following Lenin, or Max.
Prabhupāda: No, they follow. At least, one follows himself. Is it not? "Don't follow anyone" means he follows himself. He has got a particular philosophy, and he's the leader.
Professor: Well, naturally, everybody has some kind of ideas, I mean, how to lead his life.
Prabhupāda: But that will not help us.
Professor: But, uh...
Prabhupāda: Unless we accept the real leader, a perfect personality who can give us perfect knowledge, there is no success. That is our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: But we are concerned with the real life. We are consider, concerned with the real life. If you can produce one real life, a small ant, not human being, then I shall think that you are successful in your program. But that you cannot do. Why do you talk nonsense? Therefore you are cheating. Why should he say: "That I cannot say," if he's not confident. That means cheating. Everyone is doing that. He's not confident about his theory, and he's speaking long, long speech. And people are fools. They are hearing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading many blind man. What is the benefit? The leader has no eyes, and he's leading many blind men. What is the use?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in Bhāgavatam that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not?
Dr. Hauser: But I don't really understand.
Prabhupāda: In the jungle, in the forest,...
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...the lion is considered to be the king of animals. So lion is also animal, only big animal. That's all.
Dr. Hauser: But the interest... The religious interest in Russia is, is greater than in any other country in Europe. But not the, the leaders are not...
Prabhupāda: I say the leaders. Not only in Russia. Everywhere. The leaders, the rascal leaders spoiling the whole world situation. In India also. In India, by nature, they are aloof from these four principles of sinful life. Eighty percent of the population, by nature. But government, at the present moment, the leaders, they're inducing them to eat meat, to drink. And gambling also. Introducing. Gambling. Government is issuing that gambling cards. Because government means some rascal just like Nixon has gone to the power. Now he's proved he's a rascal. So everywhere the government leaders means all rascals.
Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), again and again, same politics, same new leader, same he's a rascal. Just like Nixon advertises in news, "America now requires Nixon." So America accepted him and now America doesn't want him. Again another Nixon will come. This is going on, punaḥ punaḥ, again and again, chewing the chewed. The people are not disgusted but we have tasted all these rascals. Why another Nixon?
Dr. Hauser: There doesn't seem to be any accumulation of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: They have no brain. The same thing, the crows. So therefore they have to be enlightened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then they will be able to find out some big leader, nice leader for them. There are so many things. You are educated. You should try to understand our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: As it is, because there are many foolish rascals, they interpret unnecessarily. Just like Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is a place in India, still existing. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The meaning is clear, that "Kurukṣetra is a religious place and there, the Pāṇḍavas and the Kurus, they assembled together for fighting." But many so-called leaders, political leaders, scholars, they have interpreted, "Kurukṣetra means the body."
Prabhupāda: One is not disturbed with this outwards happiness and distress, he's eligible to become immortal. Saḥ amṛtatvāya. How? (Hindi) Yaṁ hi... (break) ...amṛta, eternal. And that is perfection. And that is going back to home, back to Godhead. But they do not know what is the aim of life. Still, they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31), leaders are blind, and they're leading blind men. Therefore there is always disaster, confusion.
Prabhupāda: So nobody's now actually... This Christian world, they do not care for any pope. Hm. What do you think? And what is this pope? He's simply a post. He has no knowledge. Otherwise how he can tolerate? People are going against Bible. But the Pope does not understand that the in the Bible clearly it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." If he does not understand the simple truth then how he can become the head of his... So what is interpretation of the pope?
Acyutānanda: Yes, they say that animals have no soul.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Such rascals, they are leaders. How much imperfect that institution is. But if you say, then they will be angry.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Tata, Sarpiosa Mehta. (?) Now from the Parsee community no such big men are coming. What you think? Last big man was Nariman. You do not know? Nariman. He was of our age. I saw him. That Nariman Point. He was a political leader. Come on. So Nariman was a Parsee. I know that.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So Napoleon was. But before constructing that arch, he was finished in battle of Waterloo. So all the struggle he made to make France a great country and him to become a great leader was futile. It was not perfectly done. In one statue I saw, "France and Napoleon identical." But France is there; where is Napoleon? Therefore it is called illusion, māyā. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: So if you make that association, that will not help you. Joint mess, dormitory. Or joint family. Just like in India. There are five brothers. They're earning. Father and mother is the leader. They're handing over the money, and the father, mother managing. That is Indian system, a joint family. So joint family or joint mess, the same thing. So if you make like that, a center, then it is no good. You must get spiritual strength. Karmī strength will not help you. What they are doing in Babar(?) Road, these girls?
Prabhupāda: So they, these so-called leaders are so fools that they... Therefore they don't believe in next life. Because that is very horrible for them. But the next life is there. Just like we, we, we have our next life. We had our previous life, then now another life, another life. So this simple thing they cannot understand. Nature is controlling this, next life, next life. Otherwise why so many varieties of life? So they have no brain. They are simply making plan for the fifty years duration of life. That's all. And even from practical point of view, suppose you are constructing a very nice house, and if you know that next day you'll be kicked out, you'll die, will you do that? But it is a fact. Next day or two days after, you'll die. That's a fact. So first of all, make arrangement that you'll not die, you'll be able to live here. That is their foolishness.
Prabhupāda: All the leaders they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die and defend. What is the difference in this minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? They have taken it very important.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, preaching, you cannot manufacture preaching. You must do preaching according to the principles ordered by your spiritual master. You cannot manufacture your own way of preaching. That is required. There must be some leader. Under the leadership. Yasya prasādād bhagavat... Why it is said? Everywhere, in the office, there is some immediate boss. So you have to please him. That is service. Suppose in office, in a department there is office superintendent. And if you do in your own way, "Yes, I'm doing my business," and the office superintendent is not pleased, do you think that kind of service is nice? No. Similarly, we have got, everywhere we have got immediate boss. So we must work. That is systematic. If everyone manufactures, invents his own way of life, then there must be chaos.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the, anyone nondevotee, he's a big camel, or big dog or big swine, like that. So these people who are praising them, they are also cats and dogs and swines, and the leader is also big swine. That's all. That is the difference. The so-called scientist, philosopher, is a big animal. That's all. But he is animal.
Prajāpati: Devotees are beginning more and more, Śrīla Prabhupāda, under your instruction, to enter into politics. But the political leaders, they will claim, "Well you have no experience. How can you be qualified to...?"
Prabhupāda: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he'll do, he'll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom, that "All these rascals, animals, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that 'How we can be happy with this Nixon and company's leadership?' "
Prajāpati: Will this be possible, to reform these leaders, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Well, just like I came here alone to reform, to make God conscious, but gradually it is increasing. Although I had very little hope, but still now hopeful. So let us try for it. It is not that cent percent people, but if one, two men can understand, leading men, then the whole society will be benefited. It is not that mass people will be reformed. Just like we have received one letter from one Mr. Ford, Ford family, how much he is appreciating our movement. He has paid also. So it is our duty to do. But if one, two men comes out, comes forward, then it will be successful.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oil drilling. So you are theologician. You start this movement, plus our Hare Kṛṣṇa party. And leaders, the propaganda should be that the, at least the priests, who are conducting religious activities, they, the priests and the leaders and the administrators, they must be sinless. Or... Sinless means they should not indulge in these four prohibited principles. Others may do. But the leaders, the political executive, administrators, and the priests who are conducting the church, they must be free from sinful life. Otherwise, there is no question of peace in the society.
Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a murderer is to be killed. Then his sins out of this murdering will be counteracted. If he lives, then he has to suffer so many tribulations. Better let him be killed. Then everything's finished. Life for life. And if there are good leaders, then they will see that the cheating scientists, they're spoiling state money. They'll be stopped in their nefarious activities. They could not become successful in the moon expedition. Now they have made another plan. Venus... What is? Venus expedition?
Prabhupāda: Because there is no good leader, all these rascals are benefitting, taking their money, and enjoying, and giving bluff information to the public. This should be stopped. Immediately this should be stopped. What is their contribution? The same thing: a dog is already barking, and because they're imitating barking, they're being awarded Nobel Prize, "Oh, how you can bark nicely!" This is going on. There is life already. It is practical. Everyone sees that a man and woman combines and there is child, life, another life. And now, foolishly they want to prove that life comes from matter. And as soon as we offer that "You take this matter. Produce," "That we shall see later on." Just see. In this way, they're spoiling money. So because there is no good leader, these rascals are not stopped.
Prabhupāda: Everything should be reformed, political, social, and be, you American nation—you're favored nation, that I am always speaking; you should utilize the favor of God and be yourself perfect—and be leader of the whole world. Anyone who is not believer in God, he should be punished. Because he's animal. He is animal, and he is posing himself as human being. Cheater. Human life is meant for tapasya, for understanding God. That is human life. This dog's life, cat's life, this is not human life. If you become a very powerful tiger, is that human life? They're thinking like that. "If I become as strong as a tiger, then there we are perfect nation." Then what is the use of tiger? It is simply kill only. What other intelligence he has got? So in your country there are so many things to be done. I give you the idea, now you take the leaders. (break) Rascal. Sentimental. Be yourself leader.
Prabhupāda: I want to begin one revolution. Their godless civilization..., against godless civilization. That is my ambition. The America will be the best person to be educated in this line and to lead, to become the leaders. They're already leader, but they must be real leader now, so that the whole world may be happy. That I can give direction. If the topmost American gentlemen come to me, I can give them direction how they can become the world leader. Actual leader. Actual leader, not bogus leader. Because God has favored them, so many things. And this movement has been started from America. I started this movement from New York. So it should be taken very seriously by the government.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. In other words, to tell the public that "You should elect God-conscious leaders to have a better society."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is our propaganda, that "This is the standard of leadership. So if you elect first-class leader, then your government will be first-class. But if you elect some rogues and thieves, drunkards, then how you can expect good government?" This is natural. After all, democracy means the public elect. The public does not know how to distinguish the rogues and thieves.
Prajāpati: You have given us this instruction, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to confront these leaders. We understand that this is your very much wish and we shall do everything we can to try to fulfill your desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Do it.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in the car)
Prabhupāda: If you can educate the people. "Don't vote for the rascals. Just try to understand who is the real man, who is the real leader."
Hṛdayānanda: So political program is very important.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If public is educated to select right type of leader, then automatically... And it is very easy thing that "Leader must be faithful. A leader must know what is God and how to trust in Him. And he must be free from all sinful activities. The pillars of sinful activities are these." This is our propaganda.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. This kind of election is rascal election. It has no meaning. Therefore the public must know whom to elect and how to elect. That should be our propaganda. Because nowadays it is democratic government, teach people how to select the real leader. Real leader means who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned, who does not cheat and who has no imperfect senses, who has, or, other words, one who has got perfect senses. So if you say, "How it is possible for the conditioned soul?" "Yes, it is possible if you follow the perfect." Just like we are doing.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to teach them how to elect leader. These are the qualification of the leaders. He must not be sinful. Then he can be. (break) ...people will find in our camp. (break)
Prajāpati: :...one philosopher atheist by the name Bertrand Russell, he tries to prove that God does not exist by saying that people who say God exists, say that God is, everything has a cause and that the first cause is God, and Bertrand Russell says, "Well, if everything has a cause, then God also must have a cause. So that, there must be no God."
Prabhupāda: If God has cause, then he is not God. That is the difference between God and everything. Everything has got cause, but God has not cause. Therefore he is God. That, the rascal, he does not know. He equalizes God and everything on the same level. Then what is the meaning of God? If He hasn't got the extraordinary qualification, then how he is God? He is everything. He does not know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is useful because in scientific world also, you follow leader, Sir Isaac Newton, Professor Einstein. Why do you follow? There must be a leader.
Karandhara: Well, they just use the leaders as springboards. They don't accept them as absolute authorities.
Prabhupāda: No, it may be springboard, but you have to take their help. Because it is springboard, you cannot neglect. What do you think?
Prajāpati: They feel great accomplishment when they can disprove something that these leaders are proposing.
Prabhupāda: No, if the leader is rascal, then it is accepted. But a leader required, that's a fact. But if you select a wrong leader, then you are misguided. But leader is required. Just like to get birth, there must be a father.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Leader is someone whose words can be accepted. A leader is someone, or a scientist, it doesn't matter, anybody, whose words are followed by...
Prabhupāda: Yes, authority. Leader means authority. His instruction is followed, and actually it happens. That is leader.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (break) ...scientific community. It changes so often...
Prabhupāda: Because they are not leader, perfect leader. With imperfect knowledge they become leader. Therefore we... Our process is to accept a leader who is perfect. That is our process. And the others, fools, they accept a leader who is not perfect. But either we or they, they must accept a leader. The only difference is that we accept the perfect leader and they accept the imperfect leader. Therefore they are cheated.
Prajāpati: They will not accept the conception of perfection. They say, "We do not accept this term perfection."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are fools, therefore they are fooled. Unless there is conception of perfection, why do you change leader? Why do you make revolution?
Prabhupāda: Just see. And they are leaders. The most sinful man is the leader. So how you can be happy?
Prajāpati: We would get support from the people who make imitation meat made of soybeans and vegetables that taste like meat. They would be in favor.
Girirāja: No, they will say that "It is not against our religion to eat meat."
Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is a question of becoming sinless. Every religion will say that you become sinless. Every religion.
Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose. So Subhash Chandra Bose was of opinion that—and that is a fact—that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue." So for thirty years... He started from 1917 and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhash Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship.
Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government should you try to change. Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something?
| Page Title: | Leaders (Conversations, 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Matea |
| Created: | 18 of jan, 2008 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=99, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 99 |