Prabhupāda: The first scene is that people passing on with saṅkīrtana movement as we have, as we usually do, very nice procession with mṛdaṅga, karatālas and that bugle, all people, just in the ordinary way. We have to make a nice procession. The second scene is that Kali, the personified Kali, a person should be decorated blackish. A blackish man with royal dress and very ugly features. And his queen, another ugly featured girl or lady. So they are disturbed. They'll talk between themselves that "There is saṅkīrtana movement now and how we shall prosecute our business of this Kali-yuga?" There will be, in that scene, in some corner somebody is drinking. Two or three persons drinking. The scene will be like that. They are sitting in the center. In one corner somebody taking part in drinking, and another part somebody is illicitly talking of lust and love with woman. In another section there is slaughtering of a cow, and another section gambling. In this way that scene should be adjusted. And in the middle, the ugly man, black man, and the ugly woman will talk that "We are now in danger. The saṅkīrtana movement has been started. What to do?" In this way you have to finish that scene.
Kali-yuga (Converations 1967 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The symptoms of Kali-yuga have already begun, five thousand years past. And it will increase. (break) ...proud of advancing, but these things are important items of human civilization. They are decreasing. (break)
Mālatī: ...world now where people, they already, if they live to be twenty-five or thirty, like you explained last night, that was a ripe old age. There are tribes in the world where people live to the age of thirty, and that is considered a ripe age. That is considered old age. And they usually die about thirty or thirty-two.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Mālatī: In places in South America and Africa. So now, as the age of Kali progresses, will those people just eventually be diminished and wiped out because they already live so short?
Prabhupāda: Not wiped out. Nothing is wiped out. The species remain. Maybe somewhere, maybe somewhere else. Nothing is wiped out.
Mālatī: If somebody gave the judge a big dollar bill he would remember.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means truthfulness is not there, diminished. The same thing. Because truthfulness has diminished, therefore you can bribe anybody and he can tell lie for you. We are in a very precarious condition. Very unfavorable condition. The best thing is to pray Kṛṣṇa, "Please pick me up very soon and let me go back to Your place." If you have to come back again, oh, you do not know how much misery we have to undergo. Because with the advancement of Kali-yuga, everything is becoming more and more miserable. There is no happiness in family life, there is no happiness in social life, there is no happiness in political life, there is no happiness in earning livelihood. Everything is encumbered. All impediment, full of impediments.
Prabhupāda: No scent.
Guru dāsa: Is that a qualification, is that part of the age of Kali-yuga? Flowers with no scent?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Trees will have no fruits. The fruit will have no juice. That is mentioned. Just like in a mango there is a seed. In many fruits there is seed. In Kali-yuga you'll find simply the skin and seed, no pulp. And cloud without rain. These are mentioned. (laughs) What can you do? If the cloud becomes without rain, if the fruit become without pulp, if the paddy becomes without grain, then what you have to eat? You have to eat the grass, the husk, the skin, and the seed. Or kill another man and eat. Just like in Africa, still, they are doing. Cannibals. Killing the grandfather, that is a great ceremony. Do you know that?
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Śivānanda: No. In the correct position then, the temple would be the center of the community.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear Bhagavad-gītā. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed." We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes. You have got ears. (shouts:) But the rascals are not coming! That is their rascaldom. Because they will go to hell. We are offering the greatest facility, but they are so rascals they are not coming. This is a rascaldom civilization. What is difficulty there? You come, sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take nice prasādam, hear philosophy, see nice pictures, decorated Deity. What is the difficulty there? But their brain is full with rascaldom. They will go to cinema, they will go to hotel, they will go to some other thing, but they will not come to temple, or church, or anywhere where these things are being done. This is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bhāgavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned brāhmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosvāmī was speaking to very learned assembly of brāhmaṇas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because it is understandable not by ordinary class of men. But they are not disallowed. It depends on the speaker to present very nicely for their understanding. It is not, I mean to say, stopped. Nityam bhāgavata-sevaya (SB 1.2.18). This is the process.
Śivānanda: Now, can... We should be able to control our attention then, to direct our attention to where...
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of sitting if you don't control your attention? Then you are simply wasting time. Why do you come? That is understood. When you come to hear, that means you must hear with attention. But this is a concession, that even if you don't hear with attention, you become purified. But if you do it, it is very nice. You make progress. You get the result very quickly. So success of life is to please Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, by one's occupational duty. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitena dharmena. Svanuṣṭhitena dharmena saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). One should try to satisfy the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead. And Lord Caitanya also recommends that "You remain in your occupation. That doesn't matter. But you submissively try to hear." So we are giving this chance to the people "Please come and hear." But they are not prepared even for that thing. The age is so strong, the Kali-yuga, that it will dictate. Māyā will dictate, "Why you go there? What is there?" But actually, those who have come to us, those who are following, they are so much changed. That is a fact. They are seeing. They are hearing, "It will be." They are seeing, "It is." Still, they are not interested. Just like a class of men, they see that a person who has committed theft is arrested by police, and he is hearing that "If you commit theft, then you will be sinful or you will be caught by the laws of the state."
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Allen Ginsberg: In a while. Well, we can talk as...
Prabhupāda: Accha.
Allen Ginsberg: Bite your food. I have that question I wanted to asked. Are you tired?
Prabhupāda: No, no. I can talk with you whole night. (laughter)
Allen Ginsberg: So he said that his teacher in India told him that LSD was a Christ of the Kali-yuga for Westerners.
Prabhupāda: Christ?
Allen Ginsberg: of the Kali-yuga for Westerners in that, as the Kali-yuga got more intense, as attachment got thicker and thicker, that also salvation would have to be easier and easier, and that...
Prabhupāda: (aside:) (Bengali)
Allen Ginsberg: Namaste. (to Indian lady)
Prabhupāda: She is a Bengali lady recently come from London.
Allen Ginsberg: Ahh!
Prabhupāda: Lekha. (Bengali)
Indian Lady: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Allen Ginsberg: So, as the Kali-yuga became more intense and as attachment became deeper and more confusing...
Prabhupāda: Attachment for?
Allen Ginsberg: ...that salvation would also have to become easier and easier in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: That is very nice statement that in the Kali-yuga salvation is very easier. That is the version of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, but that process is this kīrtana, not LSD.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, it was... The reasoning there, was that for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical form finally, and completely material form...
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So where is the salvation when there is...
Allen Ginsberg: ...that Kṛṣṇa had the humor to emerge as a pill.
Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that any of these material forms...
Allen Ginsberg: Yes?
Prabhupāda: They will be so dull, so dull. It requires brain to understand. Just like in the Bhāgavata it is said that evaṁ prasanna-manaso (SB 1.2.20), "fully joyful," bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, "by practice of bhakti-yoga." Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ, mukta-saṅgasya: "and freed from all material contamination." He can understand God. Do you think God is so cheap thing, anyone will understand? Because they do not understand, they present something nonsense: "God is like this. God is like that. God is like that." And when God Himself comes, that "Here I am, Kṛṣṇa," they don't accept it. They'll create their own God.
Allen Ginsberg: So Kalki comes at the end of the Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: And is Kalki connected with the Kali-yuga cycle?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kalki, yes.
Allen Ginsberg: So He would come at the end of Kali-yuga to end the yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then Satya-yuga will begin.
Allen Ginsberg: Then what begins?
Prabhupāda: Satya-yuga.
Allen Ginsberg: Which is?
Prabhupāda: Satya-yuga, the pious. Satya-yuga. People will be pious, truthful, long-living.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: When did this yuga...?
Prabhupāda: Begin from this Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He introduced five hundred years ago, and it will continue now.
Hayagrīva: Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga has begun five thousand years ago.
Allen Ginsberg: Began five thousand years ago.
Kīrtanānanda: But this wave within Kali-yuga, in which Hare Kṛṣṇa increases and then diminishes, is about ten thousand years and that began five hundred years ago.
Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, the duration of life of Kali-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that, we have passed five thousand years. There is balance, 427,000's of years. Out of that, ten thousand years is nothing.
Allen Ginsberg: Where is all this?
Prabhupāda: Vedic literature.
Prabhupāda: Padma Purāṇa, Purāṇas.
Allen Ginsberg: Bhāgavata Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata Purāṇa.
Allen Ginsberg: Has the detailed analysis of what goes on within the Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. I'll read you sometimes.
Allen Ginsberg: There are translations of that. There are some translations of that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Twelfth Canto, the Kali-yuga descriptions are there.
Allen Ginsberg: Twelfth Canto.
Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto. And you will find that all the descriptions are coming to be true. Just like there is one statement, svīkaram eva udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." Now that is being done. And lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam: "People will think that he has become very beautiful by keeping bunch of hairs." That is coming true. These are written there. All things are there in Bhāgavata history.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam (SB 11.5.32). We have given that in that book, our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. That is the first quotation there.
Allen Ginsberg: So it's on this quotation from Bhāgavata Purāṇa that Caitanya built His system?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is program, already presented, and He came to execute the program. Just like our meeting is already programmed. I come and execute it. That's all. That was previous. Clearly it is said, " 'In the Kali-yuga the Supreme Lord comes as one who always chants the holy name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, whose complexion is yellow.' Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, Fifth Chapter, 32nd verse."
Allen Ginsberg: It's in there.
Prabhupāda: So we have accepted Lord Caitanya as Kṛṣṇa not fanatically. There are evidence in Mahābhārata, in Upaniṣads, in Purāṇas, in Bhāgavata, in all Vedic scripture.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, within this period of ten thousand years, only those who hear Kṛṣṇa's name and worship Kṛṣṇa by chanting...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: They become immediately liberated and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Allen Ginsberg: And everybody else gets involved deeper and deeper in the yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. So if anyone believes in the śāstras, they should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is intelligence, to take advantage of authorized scriptures. You'll find in the Bhāgavata, There is a history of Candragupta, and "The Yavanas will become kings." That means English occupation, Mohammedan occupation. Everything is there. And Buddha's appearance, kikaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati. Kikaṭeṣu means in the Bihar province in India. Bhaviṣyati. Because Bhāgavata Purāṇa was written five thousand years ago, and Lord Buddha appeared about 2,600 years ago. So therefore it is stated, bhaviṣyati: "In future, just in the beginning of Kali-yuga, Lord will appear as Buddha. His mother's name will be Añjana, and his business will be to cheat the atheists."
Hayagrīva: Yes, but I mean all this time we only... We don't have... Not many on a permanent basis.
Devotee: You won't be leaving until September. You won't be leaving until September?
Hayagrīva: Well, I don't know. I may. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Kali-yuga, everything should be managed by society. In Bhāgavata also. Yes.
Hayagrīva: Oh, democracy. In Kali-yuga, democracy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Society. Body.
Hayagrīva: This is not best. This is not best. You mention that in the books, that this is not very good.
Prabhupāda: This is not very good in this sense... But at that time one man was so advanced that his order was perfect. Actually these kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit and others, they were consulting learned brāhmaṇas, not that they were actually autocrat. No. They used to consult how the government should be conducted.
Kīrtanānanda: They had a council of brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: Yes, council of brāhmaṇas. Yes. The brāhmaṇas, they are not politicians, but they would give from śāstra direction, "You are a king. You do like this."
John Lennon: If all mantras are... All mantras just the name of God. Whether it's a secret mantra or an open mantra, it's all the name of God. So it doesn't really make much difference, does it, which one you sing?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like in drug shop they sell all medicine for disease, curing disease. But still, you have to take doctor's prescription to take a particular type of medicine. They will not supply you. If you go to a drug shop and you say, "I am diseased. You give me any medicine," that is not... He'll ask you, "Where is your prescription?" So similarly, in this age, in Kali-yuga age, this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, is recommended in the śāstras, and great stalwart—we consider Him the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He preached this. Therefore our principle is everyone should follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). We should follow the footprints of great authorities. That is our business. The Vedic mantra says, tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ. If you simply try to argue and try to approach the Absolute, it is very difficult, simply by argument and reasoning, because our arguments and reason are limited because our senses are imperfect. (break) So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ. And scriptures, there are different kinds of scriptures. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Philosophers, every philosopher has got a different opinion, and unless a philosopher defeats other philosopher, he cannot become a big philosopher. So therefore philosophical speculation also will not make a solution. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. So it is very secret.
Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is composed of four different stages. The first stage is to understand the relationship with Godhead, or Kṛṣṇa. Because the conditioned souls at the present moment, they have forgotten self. They have forgotten their relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Actually the relationship is there, eternal, but under the influence of māyā he is thinking that "I am something of this material world," identifying himself with this body. So we have to awake them from that illusory existence, what he is not. The whole mistake of the modern status of life... I don't say modern civilization. This is coming up since the creation of this material world. Sometimes it is in greater degree and sometimes in lesser degree. In Satya-yuga the same condition, but in lesser degree. But in Kali-yuga the condition is in greater degree. So the first business is to awake the conditioned souls from their illusory position, that he is thinking, "I am this body and anything in relationship with this body is very important." Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is illusion. We speak of illusion, māyā. This is illusion, that "I am this body and anything in relation of this body..." I have got special relationship with certain woman, so I think, "She is my wife. I cannot do without her." Or another woman from whom I have taken birth, "She is my mother." Similarly father, similarly sons. In this way, country, society, at the most, humanity. That's all.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. That is a big principle. But it has been shortened, shortened in this age. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). In the Kali-yuga you cannot reform the whole population by any other means except this harer nāma. Therefore we are introducing Hare Kṛṣṇa movement everywhere.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, do the Western and Eastern societies respond differently to this call...
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot say that. Two plus two equal to four everywhere, East and West. There is no difference, East and West. It is scientific. It is vijñaṇa. So when you call of, talk of science, there is no difference of understanding in the East and West. The same thing is understood.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.
Prabhupāda: Where you are staying here? (break) ...actually inquisitive, he'll capture it. It is not the question of... Japan. (break) ...personal ambition. It is service to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66). So we are canvassing.
Guest (2): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That word, that brahma-jijñāsā, that is the position of the whole world. Yes, that is the position. They have enough seen about this material nonsense. Now that is the position. They want to know what is this Brahman.
Guest (2): It is called Treta-yuga.
Prabhupāda: No, this is not this yuga. This is called Kali-yuga. But... Then it will come, Satya-yuga. And that is long, long after, 400,000's of years after. (laughs) Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). In every step there is danger.
Mālatī: This lecture was recorded in Gorakhpur, U.P., India, on the evening of Feb. 14, 1970 (end)
Prabhupāda: ...therefore they are coming to these things. Process of killing is different because in this age if you simply kill all the pāpīs, then there will be no more existence because everybody is pāpī. If you take sword and kill the pāpīs, then everybody will be finished. Of course, that will be done at the last stage of Kali-yuga. But here the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is killing the pāpa-bīja. Pāpa-bīja means just like a man is a thief. He knows that "If I steal, according to śāstra, I'll be punished by God. Or there is no god. Then I'll be punished by the state, by the police." He knows that. And he sees also that one man who has committed theft, he is arrested and he is taken by the police. He has seen also. But still he does stealing. He knows either from the state point of view or śāstra point of view, and he sees practically. Still he does it. Why? Pāpa-bīja. In the heart the seed of committing sinful activities is there. So simply by seeing or knowing, it will not be killed. It has to be killed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. He should be purified from the heart he'll give up everything. So this killing process is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So this pāpa-bīja, the seed of sinful activities, is being killed. Otherwise, how people give up all the sinful activities? Because the pāpa-bīja, the original seed, is being killed away. You see practically.
Interviewer: Now do you claim then that your way of loving God is the way to love God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At least for this age.
Interviewer: For this age?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: You meant for Kali-yuga? For the time that we live in right now?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the method is authorized. Kṛṣṇa prescribes this. Kṛṣṇa Himself as Lord Caitanya, He says that this is the only method for self-realization or for God realization or to learn how to love God. He says. Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore it is authorized. And it is practically happening. Otherwise, these boys and girls, they are foreigners. They never knew Kṛṣṇa. Now I have got sixty centers and each center, they are on the average hundred devotees and they have dedicated their life. How it is happening unless it is authorized?
Interviewer: Well, you know they say they never knew Kṛṣṇa, and you are, of course right. But different peoples name their Gods in different ways. You name your God Kṛṣṇa. In the Western world, many, many people name their God Jesus, Jesus Christ. There are other peoples in different parts of the world who have different names for the Gods which they pray to.
Prabhupāda: Yes. that's all right. We say in that connection that if you have got a name which is actually referring to God, that will also do. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. So according to Vedic literature, kṛṣṇaś tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the... He has got many names. Thousands and millions of names. This is the original name. So Caitanya says not that you have to chant Kṛṣṇa, but if you have got actually a name for God, you can chant that. We are not asking you that you chant Kṛṣṇa. If you have got actually a name for God, then you can chant that. We are requesting that you chant God's holy name.
Interviewer: Now, do you claim, then, that your way of loving God is the way to love God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At least for this age.
Interviewer: For this age?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: You mean for Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: For the time that we live in right now?
Prabhupāda: Because the method is authorized, Kṛṣṇa prescribes this. Kṛṣṇa Himself and Lord Caitanya. He says that this is the only method for self-realization, or for God-realization, or to learn how to love God. He says. Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore it is authorized. And it is practically happening. Otherwise, these boys and girls, they're foreigners, they never knew Kṛṣṇa. Now, I have got sixty centers, and in each center there are, on the average, hundred devotees. And they have dedicated their life. How it is happening, unless it is authorized?
Interviewer: Well, you know they say they never knew Kṛṣṇa, and you are, of course, right. But different peoples name their Gods in different ways. You name your God "Kṛṣṇa." In the Western world many, many people name their God "Jesus."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa-māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum.
Prabhupāda: Where is that?
Śyāmasundara: Just down the street.
Prabhupāda: But higher yogis, bhakta-yogīs, they see only Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47).
Guest: What is fit for lay people? Which form should we meditate upon?
Prabhupāda: For Kali-yuga, this is Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya (SB 12.3.51). Kali-yuga, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya.
Guest: I asked which form, that is the form...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa form.
Guest: Kṛṣṇa form holding muralī(?) in His hand?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Veṇu, muralīdhara.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: There was monarchy, the kings were very responsible. Therefore, the kings were known as rājarṣi. Rājarṣi, rāja ṛṣi, rājarṣi, this is compound word. (indistinct) king supervising the administration of the state, still his character was just like a ṛṣi, (indistinct) great sage. That was the qualification of the king. Therefore... Also Vedic civilization, even up to Maharaja Parīkṣit, the government was monarchy. At the present moment, practically all monarchical state is abolished. Even there is some monarchy... Formerly... (indistinct) just like in England, the Queen, she is powerless. Actually, the Queen has no power. People have taken away the power. Here also there is the (indistinct) Jaipur. Actually, they are the owner of the state, Jaipur state, the old state, at least five hundred years old, this state. (indistinct) It is the kingdom of Maharaja Mansingh, former Mansingh, who was commander-in-chief of emperor (indistinct).
But now they have no power. The people have taken away the power. But according to Vedic civilization, this people's government is not sanctioned. Democracy. Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to the śūdras. So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power? We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested... Formality. So they put their manifesto before the election, that we shall serve you in this way and that way.
Prabhupāda: Somebody must be there. So monkeys, they are now taking advantage, that these people have got some eatables. Therefore, Darwin's theory is from monkey. That's a fact. From the monkey, cow, and lion, the next birth is human life. So vimṛśya loka-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma satriṇaḥ, they began to discuss how to mitigate the troubles of the people. They began to discuss that aho ubhayataḥ prāptaṁ lokasya vyasanaṁ mahat. People, they are now disturbed both ways. One way, the king is a rascal. Another way is that taking advantage of the bad king, the thieves and rogues, they are also very powerful. So just see how the saintly persons became compassionate to the people that they are both ways. Actually at the present moment, people are disturbed by unnecessary taxes, at the same time bad elements. So without proper king, without nice state, everyone is unhappy. And that is going on nowadays. In the Kali-yuga, it will go on continual, and more and more people will be unhappy.
Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Reduce it, just like a boy is trained up as a student up to twenty-five years, restricting sex life. Brahmacārī. So, some of the boys they remain naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī. He, because he's given education, so if he becomes fully conversant he doesn't like to marry. But one who has not such restraint, he's allowed to marry. That is also restricted, that he cannot have sex life without being married. Therefore in the human society there is marriage, not in the animal society. But we are reducing human society gradually to animal society. We are forgetting marriage. That is also written in the śāstras. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. In the Kali-yuga there will be no marriage performances, but the boy and the girl, they'll simply agree to live together. Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetuḥ. And their relationship will exist on sexual power. If the man or the woman is deficient in sex life, then there is divorce. So on this philosophy... There are many western philosophers like Freud and others. They have written so many books. But according to Vedic culture, we are not interested. We are interested only for begetting children. That's all. Not to study the psychology of sex life. There is already psychology, pravṛtti, natural. Even if one does not read any philosophy, he'll be sexually inclined. There is no need of philosophizing sex life. Nobody is taught sex life in the school and the colleges, but everyone knows it, how to do it. (laughs) So pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. That is the general tendency. But education should be given to stop it. That is real education.
Prabhupāda: "Used to" means who knows what they are doing now.
Yamunā: The white men came and killed them.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they kill for eating. That is..., fighting or for taking possession, killing, that is everywhere. that is not extraordinary. But killing for eating a man, that is extraordinary. (chuckles)
Devotee: That's only in Kali-yuga, yes, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee: Only in...
Prabhupāda: No, no, all the yugas. More or less. (aside:) So when we shall have to go?
Devotee: I'll just see if the car is here. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...take away Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. The Japanese, they also eat everything? No.
Devotee: Not now.
Prabhupāda: Some of them?
Devotee: In times of war, I think all people...
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but generally.
Guru dāsa: About this tape recording.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not the question of "the Chinese are eating, I am not eating." It is a question that how many number of different types of body I got. It is not that I am talking of Chinaman eating man or dog. I may be in this form, next life. So, therefore, the problem is how to stop this transmigration of the soul. That is the problem. Not that because the Chinese man eats something else other than I eat, that does not mean that I am very much... (break) Therefore, we have to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to have next. That is human civilization. But they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. They do not believe in God. They do not believe in anything. Simply just like animals. This life—eating, sleeping, mating—do it to your best capacity. That is Kali-yuga. They have no knowledge, neither they are interested to know. Mandāḥ. And even they become little interested of spiritual..., a hodgepodge, no clear idea. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo (SB 1.1.10). And unfortunate, harassed in every field of life. And hy upadrutāḥ. And over and above everything, they are always disturbed by external enemies. This is the position of Kali-yuga. And this life shortened, duration of life. So how they can advance by following the regular Vedic process? It is not possible. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). No car?
Yadubara: Technological advancement, scientific?
Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if in all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life.
Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old. What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledge, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is brahminical qualification. A brāhmaṇa will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A śūdra will accept because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between brāhmaṇa and śūdra. It is not a caste system. It is classi..., guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra, so he does not know what is the actually brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done?(known?) I am as good as he is, and why he should be called brāhmaṇa? He should be given greater facility?" So actually it has happened so. A so-called brāhmaṇa, caste brāhmaṇa, he is working his intelligence like śūdra, and he is claiming, by birthright, brāhmaṇa. There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes brāhmaṇa. That is the injunction of the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a brāhmaṇa? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga. He never said by birth, never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. "In this age, Kali-yuga, all śūdras." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it-fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the lawbook, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the śāstra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact. In the Bhāgavata it is already stated, lavaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. Keśa means hair. To keep long, long hair will be the practice of people because they will think by keeping long hair they look very beautiful. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Five thousand years this prediction is there: "In this Kali-yuga people will keep long hair, and..., because that will be appreciated, that a man keeping long hair is very beautiful." So that is happening. Just see. Five thousand years ago, that was written, and that is happening. There are so many things. That is called śāstra. It is truth for all the days—past, present, future. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. These things are stated. "Husband and wife will keep together so long their sex power is strong. Otherwise they will divorce." This is written. Svīkāram eva hi udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." According to Vedic system, marriage is a long program. The father of the girl and the boy first of all select. Then their horoscope should be consulted, how they will mix together, and then the family, then personal qualification, so many things... Then dowry... After all this consideration, when everything is satisfactory, then the father and mother of both sides will agree, and they will be married. That is marriage. Now, at the present moment in Kali-yuga, it is said, svīkāram eva hy udvahe. Boys and girls will loiter in the street and two of them, as they agree, "Yes, we will live together." That's all. Bas. This is stated. And that is happening. So this is called śāstra. Five thousand years ago, what was predicted, that is now happening. Therefore we give so much stress on the śāstra that it is perfect. There is no mistake. If you write one book, I write one book, because we are imperfect, it is all imperfect.
Devotee: He had 10,000 ah, subjects. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, all of them become nullified and this rascal comes forward to defy all the ācāryas and push some new theory. Just see. This is going on. (Sanskrit) In the Varāha Purāṇa it is stated that some of the rākṣasas, they will take advantage of Kali-yuga and take birth in brāhmaṇa families, so he is one of them, this rākṣasa. And now he is suffering for that. Greatest calamity, you see? And according to Vedic injunction, the king if he levies tax from the subjects who are sinful, then he has to partake of the sinful action and he'll have to suffer. So, this rascal became the president of India, it is the position of king and on the (indistinct) of him he supported the slaughterhouses and levied taxes and he took high salary, enjoyed it. Now he is suffering the effect, sinful effect. Now in his living condition he has lost his brain. He, practically dead but living condition, it is very precarious condition. One is living actually but his brain is not acting, worse than a madman. So, this is the result of the rākṣasa statement. Yes, go on. (end)
Guest (2): So in other words, all dependent employees, they're all śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of the śāstra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra."
Guest (2): So only those who have independent means, then, would come in the...
Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa.
Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"—the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"—qualification. "He's vaiśya,"—qualification. "He's śūdra—by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: (SB 7.11.35) "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a brāhmaṇa family, but if he has got the śūdra qualities, then he should be śūdra. And a man born of a śūdra family, if he has got the qualities of brāhmaṇa, then he must be designated as brāhmaṇa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is the symptom of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Not Kali-yuga. This is the symptom of conditioned soul. It is very prominent now in this age. Conditioned soul means these four defects—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of the senses. The scientists say that we do not know, that means imperfectness of sense. I am trying to see but the cloud is checking me, and I am considering beyond this cloud there is nothing. That is imperfectness of my seeing. Not... It is not a fact that beyond the cloud there is nothing. So these things are going on—cheating, illusion, mistake, and imperfect. And they are trying to come to a right conclusion. Just like somebody was telling that there is going to be a big conference of the Catholics to consider what wrong they have done. They can see that the people are rejecting the so-called Christian religion. So now they are thinking (indistinct). But it is also another cheating. They are deliberately violating the principles of Christian religion, and still they say, "What we have done?"
Prabhupāda: Making rogues and guṇḍās and hippies, that's all. The science is manufacturing atom bomb, and philanthropy is becoming hippies. This is the result of education. They are manufacturing compounds, strong contraceptive method, infallible contraceptive method. Suffering only. What is the time now?
Jayatīrtha: (?) minutes to seven.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this propensity will increase in this Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Jayatīrtha: ...so many riots by the students at the university there that the shopkeepers in the local area are suing the State because the windows have been broken so many times and so much merchandise has been stolen by the students, they think the State should pay them back.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. The State must be responsible. What the State reply?
Jayatīrtha: Well, they're having to litigate in court over it. The State doesn't want to do it. So this university there is one of the most famous universities in the whole country. They spend so many millions of dollars to maintain it nicely. (break) (dog barking) ...changing their bodies in particular ways to make them look (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: When you do not take care of God, you must take care of dog. (laughter) (end)
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Scholar: The years, he mentioned here.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Scholar: Only the yuga of..., Kṛta-yuga is four thousand years. And Tretā-yuga is three thousand years.
Prabhupāda: No.
Scholar: Dvāpara-yuga is two thousand years, and Kali-yuga is one thousand years.
Prabhupāda: One thousand years? (laughs) We have already passed five thousand years.
Scholar: Wait. Oh. There is one thousand years, god's years. If it is human years it is four million three thousand, three hundred twenty thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Total. There is...
Scholar: Four millions and...
Prabhupāda: That is the total yuga.
Scholar: Yes, in human years.
Prabhupāda: Human calculation.
Scholar: Yes.
Scholar: What is His Divine Grace idea about Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga means degraded age.
Scholar: It's the time for that.
Prabhupāda: Degradation.
Scholar: It's the time for that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It has begun for the last 5,000 years. It's going on.
Scholar: And how long it will be?
Prabhupāda: And it will remain for another 427,000's of years. The whole duration is 432,000's of years, out of which we have passed only 5,000 years. That means the balance is 427,000 years. So at the end, people will forget everything about God. There are descriptions of the Kali-yuga. So if we again come back to Kali-yuga, it is not very good for us. The symptoms have already begun. So actually, we must do something by which people may derive some benefit. Simply for formalities there is no value. And that, things are already mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have to simply follow the program, then life will be perfect. (Hindi) Fruit. Give them this prasādam, this fruit.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They eat?
Prabhupāda: Yes. All animals, they eat their children.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have seen the eggs of snakes. They are small, this big, the eggs.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: As the Kali-yuga advances, the human beings will eat their children too. Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like in the last war, they ate stool, their own stool, out of hunger. So when there will be no foodstuff, they will kill their own children. Already they are killing, abortion. Not only abortion, children grows... By surgical instrument, they kill and they take out the child... They are already killing.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: When they take the pill, the birth control pill, are they killing their children too?
Prabhupāda: Killing means killing, what is that? What he is asking? I do not...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is asking that they take the pill, birth control pill.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is one kind of killing. But directly killing. They, through some instrument, through the vagina, they kill, cut into pieces and get out. Living children. He is a scientist. That surgeon, he is a scientist, and doing this business.
Prabhupāda: And so... Real intelligence is that to know "what I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake... So many things. So nobody wants to die. But death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made. What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there. Three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease. Diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering. Due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind... Body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pains. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects. They give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's... All of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like, all, in India there is drought. They are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, sufferings going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse. He cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas. Next, the vaiśyas. And the śūdras, they are like, almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog, without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go. "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancies." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food." Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut!" This is the position. Therefore in this age kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya. There are some vaiśyas. And all śūdras. Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big... What is that? Śūdras. They are creating śūdras. "People should be dependent." Unless you work... Therefore people are going fifty miles away, going... I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side... What is that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is there, described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The, the governmental power will go to the rascals and thieves, rogues. And their only business will be how to exploit the people. So one side, by not sufficient rain, there will be scarcity of foodstuff, and one side, the government will tax like anything. In this way, people will be so much harassed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This will be done in Kali-yuga. And gradually, there will be no supply of grains. Especially rice, wheat, sugar, milk, these things will be finished. So people will be obliged to take flesh. These are all stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Śyāmasundara: In that case, is there any hope in a movement like ours to rectify the situation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If they take to Kṛṣṇa co... That is also stated, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Kīrtanād, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can become free from all these calamities and go back to home, back to Godhead. Only Kṛṣṇa conscious people will be free from all these calamities. Others will have to suffer.
Śyāmasundara: So societies in general will not improve, but more people...
Prabhupāda: Improve... Major portion is stated like that. But there is always light and darkness. Always. So the light party will be also there. This is the only, that take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. Doṣa-nidhi. Nidhi means ocean, and doṣa means faults. But there is one opportunity. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. Very great profit. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's name and becoming Kṛṣṇa con..., one shall be freed from all these calamities and he'll go back to home, back to Godhead. Simply by this. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. This very word is used. Mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. So this is the only shelter. If people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be saved from all the calamities of this age. Otherwise, there is no other... Now they are going to the forest, the hippies. Eh? Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. Giri-kānanam means to the forests, to the hills. They'll go. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇām. Dāra means wife, and draviṇā means money. So they'll be separated from wife and money, and they'll go to the forest and hills, being disappointed. This is happening already. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam.
Śyāmasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Within ten thousand years, if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then life is successful. After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand. Char-lakh murti saja. (?) Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you travel much all over the world and...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At least twice in a year, all over the world. Just in April I was here, in London. April? Or May?
Śyāmasundara: May.
Prabhupāda: May.
Śyāmasundara: Then to India.
Prabhupāda: In the month of May I was here. Again I have come in July. Formerly, from India to come to London, it was like a dream. And now it is daily affair. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali-yuga. So people are being misled. Actually, the human being, the form of human life, is distinct from animal life. So if we live like animals, then we are missing the chance. At the present moment, this is the position. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement strictly on the basis of this Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, there is everything explained. So if people take to it, if people are educated, then things will change in a different way. They'll be happy and they will be peaceful, nice. And above, over and above them, they will have next life very blissful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Yad gatvā na nivarta... These things are all very nicely explained. There is eternal life. There is another nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This is material nature, but there is another, spiritual nature. There everything is permanent. Here everything is non-permanent. Just like my body, your body. It is now getting older. And it will vanquish. This body will be finished. It will never come again back. Never come. This exactly type of this body you'll never get.
Reporter: (laughs) Nobody.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra. No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdra, or less than śūdra.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Pañcavān.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle. You know better than me.
Prabhupāda: Actually, at the present age, nobody is interested in spiritual subject matter. Nobody is interested. So nobody is coming to surrender to you. Therefore you have to canvass, "Please surrender. Please surrender." This is our position. Otherwise, the... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One should come to the guru. But nobody comes to the guru, therefore guru has to come to U.S.A. to canvass. This is the position. Nobody went to me in India, but I had to come here to canvass you. Because it is Kali-yuga. Real process is one should go to the guru. But intelligent man goes: "My life is meant for spiritual realization. So I must find out a guru." That is his business, but people are so fallen in this age that nobody's interested in that subject matter, that he has got a spiritual value and he has to achieve this knowledge and make his life perfect. Nobody knows it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught preaching. These rascals, they are so fallen, they'll never search out guru. So guru should go and canvass.
Sudāmā: Therefore you are Jagad-guru.
Prabhupāda: I may be whatever it is. That is the business.
Govardhana: You are so kind that your books are attracting so many. They have the same potency as yourself. Your canvassing is so effective, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught us... Even Nityānanda Prabhu, Haridāsa Ṭhākura, they were sent: "Go and preach. Go door-to-door. Teach them Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Caitanya Mahāprabhu Personally did it. So our mission is like that. People are so rascal that they'll never come to guru and surrender. Manda. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are so much embarrassed with these material calamities. Upadrutāḥ. Upadrava means disturbances. And manda: by nature very rascal. And sumanda. If there is, there is little intention, they goes to this, what is called, this boy?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prajāpati: ...getting worse over these five thousand years, but by a reintroduction, reintroducing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the tide can be turned in age of Kali?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only remedy. That is the only remedy. Anyone who takes to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be cleansed of all sinful activities and then everything will come out nice. And it is practical. It is not story. Just see, all our disciples in Europe, America, they were habituated to so many bad habits, and because they are chanting, they are now cleansed. So it is small-scale. If you propagate it large-scale, everyone will be cleansed. (break) ...disciples who were trained up from very beginning of their life: meat-eating. They are giving meat-eating. Here in your country, small children, they are fed with meat-powder. Intoxication is also a daily affair. How they are giving up all intoxication? (break) Is there arrangement for... Where is Karandhara?
Karandhara: Jaya, Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the symptom of material nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this yajña means to satisfy the Lord. Yajñārthe karma. So when you miss this yajña, then everything becomes disturbed. When you become godless then the whole thing will be disturbed. And practically also, if you pay income tax, then government arrangement is everything, nicely going on. And as soon as stop income tax, then whole thing... There is no finance, there is deficit, this, that, so many things. So yajña is yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra. Everything should be done for the Yajña, for Viṣṇu. Then everything is in order. In Kali-yuga, other, costly yajñas are not possible. Therefore yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Saṅkīrtana. But these rascals will not take. If you say that "This simple yajña, you take it. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. All problems will be solved," they will not believe. They will not take it. They are so misfortunate. Śāstra says, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got good brain, they take up this yajña process. Su-medhasaḥ. And another word is alpa-medhasaḥ, less brain substance. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). They are doing all other things, but not yajña. Therefore alpa-medhasām: their brain substance is small. And here is su-medhasaḥ. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is the sign of merit: You do something which will produce good result. And if you, cats and dogs, if you simply jump over, what you will do result? That Lilavati Munshi of Bombay, she is the wife of a big man, K. Munshi. So she was asking, "Swamiji, how you made like this?" Everyone is surprised because nobody has done like this. I said that "Because I have taken the proper method, therefore it is done so nicely." The method must be right. It may be simple, but it must be right method.
Prabhupāda: We understand from the writings, not from the fossils and bones. The bones and fossils are already finished, but they kept their writing.
Bali Mardana: Only the uncivilized people were buried.
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am writing books. In future if you could not find my bones and fossils, but the books will prove what I was. So we have got the books. That is the real bones and fossils.
Bali Mardana: They try to disprove...
Prabhupāda: They cannot find out bones and fossils of Kṛṣṇa. Now, why they accept?
Satsvarūpa: Nobody agreed... (tape garbled)
Prabhupāda: You have to accept authority... (break) ...authority of yourself, we have got authority also. We have got authority. We have got our books... (break) ...that Kali-yuga has begun five thousand years but you say they do not believe in... (break) ...these rascals. Although it is history... (end)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...in this age, Kali.
Guest (1): (Hindi) ...he owes me money and I couldn't get my money back from him.
Prabhupāda: If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then (indistinct), so on , so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali-yuga. (Hindi)
Guest (1): A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some cases, but even then you have to figure out some (indistinct) and remain in the, I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego (indistinct). What you're saying is hundred percent true. Yes. It's like that.
Prabhupāda: And nowadays bribe also.
Guest: Yeah. This is a must.
Prabhupāda: Fourth-class, śūdra (indistinct), bribe.
Guru dāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali-yuga.
Guest (1): One thing is there, when I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact.
Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get...
Prabhupāda: If you're getting...
Guest (1): I am liberated that way already. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true.
Guru dāsa: Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat.
Guest (1): Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to.... I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things.
Guru dāsa: Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced.
Guest (1): Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the...
Guru dāsa: Advanced means such and such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. (break)
Guest (2): We have got an appointment. We have got.... (break)
Guest (3): ...somewhere. Saturday they close at, by 3 or 3:30 so I want to go before that.
Prabhupāda: So, you can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty (laughter)
Prabhupāda: But there is no guidance. There is no guidance.
Dr. Patel: Even imperceptibly one āśrama may be following, is followed by western countries. They have got all the (indistinct) though they are not putting on (indistinct) and all. (Hindi) But presently this is, we are living in Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Varṇāśrama-dharma is there, but it is not organized. Varṇa... Because it is made by God, mayā sṛṣṭam, it cannot be violated. So... But it (is) in a perverted way. Therefore we are suffering.
Dr. Patel: But in old days, I think, this varṇāśrama-dharma was followed...
Prabhupāda: Strictly.
Dr. Patel: I am reading the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therein so many princes turned into brāhmaṇas, and so many brāhmaṇas turned into daityas.
Prabhupāda: But that is...
Dr. Patel: It was by action.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Not by birth. Guṇa-karma. Just like you are kṣatriya, but because you have acquired the qualification of medical man and you are working as a medical man, therefore you are medical man. Nobody asked you, "You are a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa." You are a medical man.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.
Dr. Patel: He was white in Kṛta-yuga, in Tretā, He was...
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: That is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: And then he was yellow in Dvāpara. And because now He's born in Kali-yuga, He's dark.
Guest (1): Not Kali-yuga. Dvāpara-yuga. Dvāpara-yuga.
Dr. Patel: Dvāpara and Kali-yuga sandhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that means Kṛṣṇa had all the colors. Śuklo raktas tathā pītaḥ.
Dr. Patel: Because all the mūrtis, other mūrtis in big, our temples... Just like in Dvaraka...
Prabhupāda: No, in Gujarat...
Dr. Patel: All dark color.
Prabhupāda: That's right. And here, there are white also.
Dr. Patel: They have got ūdara-śiṣṇu-parāyanaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Parāyanaḥ. So they think, "Now my day's business is finished. Now I have eaten." And dakṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇam. And if one man can maintain a family of four, five, men, "Oh, he's Mahārāja Dakṣa." Mahārāja Dakṣa, you know? He was a great personality. He was performing yajñas. So this is Kali-yuga. Even they will not be able to maintain a wife, a few children. There is no shelter. I have seen in, all these things in western countries. They have no fixed up. Just like animals. The animal also loitering in the street or in the jungle; they are loitering in a great jungle, a great city. That's all.
Mr. Sar: Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ (BG 7.3).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Māyāvādīs cannot understand. Although they have come to the point of siddha, still they cannot understand. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). They are siddhas because they have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This much they have understood. But still they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Although they are trying...
Dr. Patel: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah, tattvataḥ. They do not know. They say,"Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra." God is nirākāra. "I am as good as God." These theories, encumbrous theories... because they do not know. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3).
Prabhupāda: Guru. Yes. Very easy. That is the secret. Yasya deve parā bhaktir tathā deve yathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). Then he is sure to be successful. This is the secret.
Dr. Patel:
- samo 'ham sarva-bhūteṣu
- na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ
- ye bhajanti tu māṁ bhakt yā
- mayi te teṣu cāpy aham
- (BG 9.29)
Prabhupāda: Just see. They bhajanti, and these rascals has announced, "This bhajana is nuisance." Just see. This is Kali-yuga, and this is our Indian government. Ye bhajanti māṁ teṣam. He is always associating with God. "I am always with him," ye bhajanti, and this rascal has remarked, "bhajana nuisance." Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. These are the statements. But we are... We did not take any...
Dr. Patel: They are durācaris(?).
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should have taken some step against this, the "Why you have said like this?" But nobody has taken.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: So this is very special planet.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vṛndāvana.
Acyutānanda: And every time Lord Kṛṣṇa appears, original Kṛṣṇa appears, does Lord Caitanya appear on the following Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: Every time.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Yaśomatīnandana: 28th day of Brahmā. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Yes. 28th or 27th. 27th Dvāpara-yuga. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). This is kṣatriya's business: to establish religious principles and to kill the demons. This is kṣatriya's business. And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He appeared as a brāhmaṇa. So He did not kill anybody. Although He was just about to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi, but Nityānanda Prabhu restrained that "In this incarnation You have promised not to kill." (break) You know I wrote him that letter.
Prabhupāda: What do they know about Vedas? If they did know, then they should have stuck up in family life, in kūpa-māṇḍukya and gṛhambhara, they have. They do not know what is Vedas. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is knowledge of Veda. In the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is the special quality of Kali-yuga, that śūdra class people will take up the preaching of Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And even followers of Śaṅkarācārya... Śaṅkarācārya does not give anyone any recognition unless he's a sannyāsī. That is the strict principle of Śaṅkara sampradāya. They are gṛhamedhis and they are thinking they are advanced in spiritual consciousness. Śaṅkarācārya does not give anyone any position unless he is in the renounced order of life.
Girirāja: (break) ...sign of a great devotee is also to be always absorbed in...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in their sampradāya it is a custom, as soon as he takes sannyāsa, he becomes Nārāyaṇa. "Namo nārāyaṇa." (laughs) That is an allurement. So this... Even one says that he is follower of Śaṅkarācārya, but there is no meaning in it. Unless one is a sannyāsī, he cannot say that he is follower of Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years.
Prabhupāda: So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra, (indistinct) better price. But we will require more land.
Gurudāsa: We will require a self-sufficient... Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted.
Gurudāsa: Because of Kali-yuga. And also everyone in Vṛndāvana that I mention that we are planning to have gośala, everyone likes the idea. That will be very popular here. Gośala, everyone, their eyes become bright.
Prabhupāda: Make at least gośala, keep cows. That is also profitable.
Gurudāsa: Yes, maybe we should do that.
Prabhupāda: One or two men may simply take care of the cows.
Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that.
Prabhupāda: And grow grass, let them pasture.
Gurudāsa: Yes, and plant trees.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajña. So in the Kali-yuga the yajña is made very easy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So anywhere you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and see that there will be clouds, there will be rainfall, and just work little, you get your foodgrains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Yogeśvara: They won't like that idea.
Prabhupāda: That means their... That is their disease. The same thing, that "Why you are sitting here? Come with me, work." "What shall I do by working?" "You get money." "Then you'll enjoy." "And I am already enjoying." That the... This is called māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, simply for little temporary so-called benefit, they have created this working civilization, "Work very hard, very hard." That's all. Whole history... In this Rome city you can see. There are evidences. These buildings are constructed with hard labor. Now those rascals have gone, and they are maintaining, that "They worked so hard." Those who worked very hard they have gone away. Now nobody knows where they are and what they have become. But they are maintaining their bricks. That's all. Brick civilization. (break)
Yogeśvara: No one goes into the park at night. Too dangerous.
Prabhupāda: Just see. They have created such a civilization.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically.
Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so-called leaders. They are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra, simply killing, simply killing. That's all, finished.
Prof. Regamay: But they have still four thousand years of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Not four thousand, 400,000. So here the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this... The atom bomb is ready. You have got, I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finish. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill... You know, grinding mill?
Prof. Regamay: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.
Herein the statement of Bhāgavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varṇāśrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13).
Robert Gouiran: I have the impression that this translation is not very good because when you define the four states of life and you translate the two last ones by..., mainly the last one, by devotion for sannyāsin. Sannyāsin is not devotion. Sannyāsin is...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I'll read that again. "then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life..."
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "...the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life."
Robert Gouiran: Oh, yes. Another way of the fourth translation, the fourth one.
Yogeśvara: He says that the word sannyāsin should be translated as renunciation instead of devotion. The stage of renunciation, instead of...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?
Robert Gouiran: Well, normal meaning.
Prabhupāda: No meaning?
Guru-gaurāṅga: The normal meaning.
Nitāi: No need.
Prabhupāda: No need. Then when the brahmacārī is allowed to become gṛhastha, he can keep more than one wife if he's able to provide them nicely. Here they marry today and tomorrow divorce. The... No meaning of marriage. Simply prostitution. Because he does not need a wife. His sex life is satisfied in so many ways. So why he should be affected, attached to wife? And why the wife should be attached to the husband? Therefore divorce. It is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Dam-patye ratim eva hi. In the Kali-yuga, married life means sex life. For sex satisfaction, they'll marry. Otherwise, there is no need of marrying. That is... Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage means that they, both of them agree that "We shall live together for some time." These things are happening, already foretold. By agreement, "Yes, we shall live together." That is marriage. "And then I may divorce." Actually, they do not know what is the meaning of marriage. All dependent on sex. Rati. Rati means... Dam-patye ratim eva hi. Vipratve sūtram eva hi: "To become brāhmaṇa means just have a thread only."
Bhagavān: So we can walk to the car through here. Will there come a time when people will become disgusted with the scientists and reject them?
Prabhupāda: No. They'll more and more forget Kṛṣṇa. This is Kali-yuga. On account of these blind leaders. Don't you see that this rascal Darwin's theory, that is very much appreciated? Any movement which tries to get out God, very much appreciated, that is very much appreciated. That is scientific. "You forget God," that is scientific. And as soon as you speak of God, "You are primitive, old type." That's all. "You are conservative." That, another rascal, Allen Ginsberg, he was speaking, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) (break)
Bhagavān: ...discuss that the fact that when people die in different modes of nature, how they come back, and you say that (if) people die in the mode of passion, they come back in human life, if they die in the mode of ignorance, they come back in demonic species of life. So the people today seem to be... Is it that they'll all come back as animals in their next life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to stop this degradation of the human society.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is that like in Parīkṣit Mahārāja's kingdom where, although it was Kali-yuga, the influence of Kali was not experienced by the people because of the strict obeyance to the laws of God?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: We read in the Bhāgavatam how in King Parīkṣit's, under his rule, the people, there was no place for the personality of Kali to live even though it was Kali-yuga. So is this possible even today?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? If you follow these four principles—no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat—then you'll, you are secure. But who is going to accept this?
Karandhara: The young man can understand that the degradation has occurred because of ignorance. The knowledge has been forgotten by which the upliftment or evolution can continue. So Prabhupāda and this movement, we're representing that knowledge. The knowledge has always been there, but it's been lost. It's been forgotten. So if that knowledge is represented, and made available, then that ignorance becomes dispelled, and the advancement can again go on.
M. Lallier: Yes, but degradation is not...? Is it not a law of nature?
Karandhara: Well, the law, the dynamic, or the dynamics of the law is the preponderance of godlessness.
Prabhupāda: No, the law is all right. Suppose one is degraded to become a criminal, thief, but he can be raised also to become a high, saintly person.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described. In Kali-yuga.
Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto?
Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. (break) ...it is stated.
- tasmāt kṣudra-dṛśo martyāḥ
- kṣudra-bhāgyā mahāśanāḥ
- kāmino vitta-hīnāś ca
- svairiṇyaś ca striyo 'satīḥ
"Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan,
- rājānaś ca prajā-bhakṣāḥ
- śiśnodara-parā dvijāḥ
- dasyūtkṛṣṭā janapadā
- vedāḥ pāṣaṇḍa-dūṣitāḥ
"The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see.
Yogeśvara: That's Paris.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta it was dangerous to go out because the next... You do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a... I was guest in our life member's. Sitting in morning, afternoon, o'clock (?). "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the backside. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) ...about so-called saintly persons, they are: tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ. "The so-called yogis, they'll live in the town." Actually, the yogis have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in... Just like the other... He's living in Paris City, and he's a yogi.
Yogeśvara: Just see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
- hrasva-kāyā mahāhārā
- bhūry-apatyā gata-hriyaḥ
- śaśvat kaṭuka-bhāṣiṇyaś
- caurya-māyoru-sāhasāḥ
Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power. The wife... The divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Here it is:
- vāso 'nna-pāna-śayana-
- vyavāya-snāna-bhūṣaṇaiḥ
- hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā
- bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ
"In the Kali-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa," you see. I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's... What is that?
Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions...
Yogeśvara: Lion's Club?
Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street.
Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghost-like. Hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ: "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ, people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then?
- kalau kākiṇike 'py arthe
- vigṛhya ca tyakta-sauhṛdāḥ
- tyakṣyanti ca priyān prāṇān
- haniṣyanti svakān api
"In the Kali-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cents." Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api.
Prabhupāda: That is... When we pray, offer pray, it is stated that that is his, one of the qualifications. Sada... Nindasi. Nindasi yajña-vidher. The animal sacrifice is recommended... Some of the sacrifices or all of them... So that animal sacrifice was not meant for eating. Just to give them new, rejuvenated life by the Vedic mantras, to test that whether Vedic mantras are being chanted properly. And because at the Kali-yuga there is no such expert brāhmaṇa, all sacrifices are forbidden. So later on, as they deteriorated, they began to offer sacrifices, and if anyone wants to stop it, they will say, "Oh, it is recommended in the Vedas." Just like these rascals, Christian: "Oh, Christ ate fish. Therefore we must maintain slaughterhouse." Just see how rascal they are. Supposing Christ ate somewhere fish. Therefore they would maintain regularly slaughterhouse of cows. This is their brain.
Prabhupāda: No, not hidden but open because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute you become purified.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Like iron in fire.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's right. (German) (break) ...Vedic injunction:
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord harer nāma, harer. Harer means of the Lord and nāma means name. Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the śāstra says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma, nāma eva kevalam, simply chant the Lord's name. Kalau, in this age of Kali. Nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other alternative for self-realization, no other alternative for self-realization, therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. (German) Kali means the age of quarrel, the age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarrel. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth. But they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting.
Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) (break) Kali-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Do you mean the Kali-yuga exists all the time?
Prabhupāda: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed so many. Instead of making solution the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth is that from which, or from Whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the... Everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim. That if you follow these philosophical quotes then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also athāto jijñāsā. Athāto jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear..." Should do it like this. That is one thing. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting.
Madhudviṣa: So what enables a person to do that?
Prabhupāda: No... But principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body; you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space, and circumstance. There will be certain class of men, foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent. So the foolish man has to take intelligence from the intelligent man. This is perpetually truth in this material world. It is not, time and circumstances changes this principle. There will be foolish men. Just like now we read, "Two classes of men are there always, the demons and the demigods." So at the present moment more demons. Two classes of men are there always, but at the present moment the demons, number of demons, are more and number of demigods are less because it is Kali-yuga.
Devotee: Saying "Don't come"?
Prabhupāda: "Don't come."
Bali Mardana: The age of Kali is perpetrating itself. (pause)
Prabhupāda: It is not their fault. Because in India a sannyāsī has become a professional beggar. Just change the dress and you can easily eat without any working.
Bali Mardana: And smoke beedies.
Prabhupāda: Everything they do. In our childhood we had a house for rental. There was a man. He was a professional beggar. You see? So other members of the house, they'll go to their office. He'll dress himself just like a sannyāsī and go for begging. (laughter) That was his business. (pause) Here in your country there is no such opportunity, but in India there is good opportunity. If you make a dress of sannyāsī, you can go anywhere, and you'll be respectable. They'll give you for eating.
Kṛṣṇa-kānti: There's no yajña, so there's no sun.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Jayatīrtha: No rain, no sun.
Prabhupāda: No, in the Kali-yuga it will be like that. There will be cloud, even thunderbolt and lightning, but there will be no rain. That is stated.
Bali Mardana: That is very inauspicious. That is not auspicious.
Prabhupāda: No.
Jayatīrtha: In the Kṛṣṇa Book you say that this Kali-yuga is compared to the cloudy season.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayatīrtha: The Kali-yuga is compared to the cloudy season of...
Rāmeśvara: The living entities, the living entities.
Jayatīrtha: And only by the appearance of Lord Caitanya with the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra are the clouds cleared away.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Jaya. Just like sometimes there's a break in the clouds. Sometimes in the Kali-yuga there's the break, Lord Caitanya's movement.
Prabhupāda: Is there any ship here, it is going? No, it is standing.
Bali Mardana: There's little flies and bugs.
Kṛṣṇa-kānti: They're called sand fleas.
Bali Mardana: Sand fleas.
Prabhupāda: No. They're eating this.
Jayatīrtha: Garbage.
Bali Mardana: This?
Rāmeśvara: Those are the stones.
Prabhupāda: They can eat stone and digest.
Bali Mardana: They can eat the sand.
Prabhupāda: Sand?
Bali Mardana: The sand is made of little stones.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not sand, not sand.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Romaharṣaṇa. (break) Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ, yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. If there is timely cloud and rainfall, this ground can be moistened very easily. But they won't perform yajña; therefore there is scarcity of cloud and rain. Now they have to manufacture this sprinkler. And it is not perfect. (break)
Hṛdayānanda: Another question, Prabhupāda. He said that you have stated that Kali-yuga will last for around 400,000 more years and then it will be finished and that the culture will gradually degrade, people will become very short and so on and so forth. So he's wondering if there will be geographical changes in the world or if the culture as we know it now will simply disappear and how the people will be... More or less, he's wondering what will become of the earth.
Prabhupāda: Because they will not get sufficient food, shelter, bodily necessities. Just like it is already declining, already declining. Just formerly in our childhood we saw the Western people very tall. Now they are not tall. They are decreasing already. (break) In the Western countries, still there are some but in other countries they are very lean, thin and drawn. Stature of the body will decrease. Memory will decrease. It is already taking place. So in this way, you just imagine, in 400,000 years after, what will be the condition. You take mathematical calculation.
Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means restriction. One meaning of sacrifice is: if you believe in the śāstra, the animal is going to get next life as a human being. Because he is being sacrificed under Vedic rituals, so he is given promotion immediately, to human life. So he is not loser. His body being sacrificed before the deity, he gets the opportunity of getting a human life immediately, for which he had to wait perhaps thousands and thousands of years, because the evolution will go. Of course, after animal life the next life is human life. So anyway, he is given the concession to get a human form of body immediately after this body is destroyed, and with the right that he has the right to kill the man who has killed him. That mantra is cited, that "He was sacrificing your life, so you get immediately human form of body, and you can kill this man." So this is the Vedic rituals. Another animal sacrifice is there just to make experiment of the Vedic mantra. An animal is sacrificed in the altar, and he is given again life, rejuvenated life. An old cow sacrificed, and he gets a youth, young (body). If the animal comes out alive, then it is to be considered that the Vedic mantras are being recited correctly. Not to kill and eat, no, no, that is not the purpose. Just like in laboratories, they make some experiment on the animal, similarly this is like that. The animal is sacrificed, and he is rejuvenated in young life. Old life is sacrificed, and he gets a new body. Then it is to be understood that in this ritualistic ceremony the mantras are chanted correctly. That is their power. But because in this age such learned brāhmaṇas are not available, therefore it is stopped. No more. There is a verse in the Purāṇas,
- aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ
- sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam
- devareṇa sutotpattiṁ
- kalau pañca vivarjayet
- (CC Adi 17.164)
In this age of Kali, five things should be avoided: one is performing sacrifice by offering cows; performing sacrifice by offering horse; and oblation offering to the forefathers with meat; and then to get child by the husband's younger brother. Maybe it was practiced formerly. According to Vedic rituals, the husband's wife... That is permanent relation; there is no divorce, nothing of the sort. But in case of the husband being sick or dead, the women was allowed, if she has no children, to get children by the husband's younger brother. Devareṇa. That is also now not allowed. So these five things are not allowed in this age, Kali-yuga: sacrifice offering cows, sacrifice offering horse, sannyāsa—renouncing family life—sannyāsa order, offering oblations with meat to the forefathers, and begetting children through the husband's younger... These five items are forbidden.
Bernard Manischewitz: You say in these times. How recent is this? How recent?
Prabhupāda: Say about five thousand years. Kali-yuga has begun since five thousand years, and it will continue for 427,000 years still.
Bernard Manischewitz: I have another question. May I ask it?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Bernard Manischewitz: There seems to be a determination on the part of most of the devotees to eliminate from their lives all news except that dealing with Kṛṣṇa. It seems..., it seems to me if they are to bring Kṛṣṇa to the world that it would be an important thing for them to have news, to know, to be able to communicate with people. Is there some actual prohibition against (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: No, we know... It is useless. It is useless. Because what you will find in the newspaper? The material activities within this item-eating, sleeping, sex and defense. All the politicians will speak, "Now we are arranging eating process like this, we are making this plan, we are..., economic." Uhh? (aside:) Thank you. Very good. You have written? Aiye. The repetition of the same news. It has no good news. "There was a burglary, there was a theft, and this man cheated, and this man was rogue." What is the use of this news? Let everyone know that the whole world is full of such rubbish things. The politicians, they are talking in their own way, that's all. (indistinct) Even Gandhi, such an exalted man, he says that "I have no belief. I do not believe that there was any person as Kṛṣṇa ever living." Just see.
Prabhupāda: They were not properly doing their duties. So Paraśurāma said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly kṣatriyas were guided by the brāhmaṇas, even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all the rules and regulations. But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdraḥ-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are śūdras. Because they are workers. (break) Everyone can be purified, even the caṇḍālas. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). Yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasādayaḥ, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kālayavana. Kālayavana fought with Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, will the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will take over the world eventually?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (1): Is going to take over the world eventually some time during the Kali-yuga, in this Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible, because only the fortunate persons will take.
Devotee (1): I mean, but will the power of the kṣatriyas will be in the hands of the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons sometime during this Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Provided you become very expert to preach. Unless you preach, how they will take? (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Towards the end of the Kali-yuga isn't there a description in the Bhāgavatam that one will not be able to see the sun or the moon?
Prabhupāda: During the end of Kali-yuga?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because of the impiety. So there will be no vegetation. Is that description in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: I don't think. (break) ...it is stated?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, I had heard—of course, I'm not certain of the source—that because of impiety the sun and the moon, people would not be able to see. So there would be no vegetation. And without vegetation, even animals cannot live. So eventually they would take to eating their own children. Is this what takes place?
Prabhupāda: Yes, there will be no foodstuff at the end of... That is stated. No milk, no food grains, no fruits, no whatever. Especially food grains.
Devotee (2): There will be some devotees left at the end of Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes, only the devotees will be left. All others... (break) (loud noise of car screeching.) ...are not very neat and clean. (chuckles) Yes. That means condition is not very good. And it is sound.
Brahmānanda: Not in proper repair.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We had an engagement last night at a technical school after your lecture, and inside the entrance of the technical school in a big glass case they had a big engine from a car, when you walk into the technical school. Mostly Indians, young boys.
Prabhupāda: Oh, foreigners.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (break) So they were very disrespectful actually. But when we started kīrtana, the whole atmosphere changed. Do you think that the young Indian boys in the future, they will become anywhere near as pious as their parents?
Prabhupāda: Why do you take India? We are talking of the whole world. There is no question of India, Europe, America.
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post.
Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra you are going to be pygmy men. That is, there is proof, because you are not as strong as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our śāstra you come to that pygmy, (indistinct) in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history repeating.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We say there was Kali-yuga. Four yugas are changing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dinosaurs also?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're from Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... (BG 3.27). They're going on.
Prabhupāda: ...put in cage. (indistinct) free. They can go away, but no...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like, the human beings are like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśodānandana: Do you think that... As the Kali-yuga progresses the people are getting smaller. Does this mean that Kṛṣṇa and His associates were much taller in stature than we are now?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśodānandana: They were much bigger.
Prabhupāda: You have seen that Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Kṛṣṇa footprint.
Devotee: That means Kṛṣṇa must have been fifteen or twenty feet tall?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) But it is a fact formerly people were taller. We have seen. In our childhood we have seen, when European, they were very tall.
Devotee (2): That story about King Mucukunda when he was sleeping in the cave and he came out of the cave and looked outside and he said, "Oh, it must be Kali-yuga." because the trees were smaller and...
Prabhupāda: Do you (indistinct) ...the mango trees now? Some of the trees (indistinct), the lemon tree, stunted. In Japan they grow many trees.
Devotee: In Japan they cultivate trees to be like that, very small. They have little orange trees. Orange trees are this big, orange trees.
Prabhupāda: They are also becoming oranges. Japanese enjoy.
Haṁsadūta: The Japanese and Chinese are very, very small.
Prabhupāda: Did it...? (break) ...special. There is a proverb, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman kalki chele busi... (?) A brāhmaṇa, black... Brāhmaṇa's another name is śukla, white. So as soon as a brāhmaṇa is black then he's (indistinct) kalo brāhmaṇa. Kota śūdra, and śūdra, just like African, if they become white there is something mystery. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, Mohammedan, because Mohammedan means the Afghans, they are very tall, so a Mussulman is dwarf, a brāhmaṇa is black, the śūdra is white, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman and kalki chelo, that means the bastard and (indistinct) ...these are all of the same class. Adopted son, he gets money, without any labor, he spends like anything. In your country there is adopted son?
Devotee: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bengali.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seak?
Prabhupāda: Sil. Sil means cultured. A cultured man is called sil. Sushil. Sushil means very culture, very... Sushil. So kalo brahm... This is unnatural. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, kanki chele... (indistinct) Now generally people, we saw, in our childhood, Europeans were very tall and now they are not coming (indistinct). Naturally when they'll not get sufficient nourishment, they'll be stunted. And Kali-yuga means decrease of nourishment, necessities of life decreasing. We see in such a rich man's house, there is no milk. Milk is one of the important nourishment foods. And there is no milk. So gradually there'll be no milk, no rice, no wheat, no sugar. These are stated. Where you'll get nourishment? And the mango, there'll be no pulp, only the seed. These are predicted. After all, you have to live by nature's gift, but these things will be finished. And Russia there is, already there is no rice. There is no fruit. There is no vegetable. Simply we eat meat.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No progress.
Prabhupāda: No progress. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. This is the greatest offense. (break) (switches to room conversation) ...the animals and human beings. Then they can work. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, then parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Now parjanyaḥ, cloud and rain, that is required. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Then you have to arrange for sacrifice. So in the Kali-yuga the costly sacrifice is not possible. Therefore from the śāstra we understand, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Sumedhasaḥ, "one who has got good brain substance." There is one word in Bhagavad-gītā, alpa-medhasaḥ: "poor brain substance." So we require some sumedhasaḥ, not alpa-medhasaḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ (BG 7.23). They are making plans by their material concoction that... That is antavat. That will be finished. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ. The things are there already, especially in India. We have got everything ready, and especially this land India. It is specially meant for God realization.
Prabhupāda: Still, those who live, they depend on mother.
Guest: Actual, the serpent because serpent government, he says.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Serpent mother also, Kali-yuga. (break) ...they are keeping, but it is not possible to give them food by purchasing. They are taking food from the street. Similarly, the poor man keep a cow. It is not possible to purchase food for the cows. So maintain in this way, so, by natural food. And in Germany I have seen. They are not given extra food. They are living by pasturing ground. That should be arranged. They should get food from the ground, not that we have to purchase food for them. Then you cannot maintain.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We just recently went to Govardhana Hill. Several years ago the grass at Govardhana Hill was very nice and long and green. This year, though, it didn't seem so green. It was very brown and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, from Kṛṣṇa's time the Govardhana grass was being supplied to the cows. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommended, "Better worship Govardhana Hill. Why you are going to Indra?"
Gaṇeśa: Does that mean that Vivasvān is more powerful than Lord Brahmā?
Prabhupāda: No. Vivasvān was begotten by Brahmā.
Amogha: Some Kali-yuga swans.
Prabhupāda: Black swans. Bhara nitya bhayamāyā. They are also aware how to protect their interest. Every living being knows how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend from fear. These trees I find in America. Here, they are scented. What is called, these? Canada.
Gaṇeśa: They look like a maple tree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is maple tree.
Gaṇeśa: I don't think it's quite the same.
Amogha: No. It's maple tree, but you can't get any maple syrup from this kind. A special kind.
Paramahaṁsa: They had this tree where I used to live, also. I don't remember the name of it. In California.
Śrutakīrti: On the airplane coming here they had some article in one of the airline books about eucalyptus trees and how these monks, they make wine out of the eucalyptus. The Trappist monks. Some kind of Trappist monks, they make wine out of the eucalyptus, and they have a big store, and they sell it, in Italy. That's their profession, making different liquors.
Amogha: Recently we have shown the film and spoken in several Catholic schools in Melbourne. They have comparative religion classes, and they ask us to come to their high schools to teach comparative religion so the students can see what other religions think. Usually they...
Prabhupāda: There is no other religion. All bogus. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo. Only religion is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is religion.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Paramahaṁsa: So the people are very afraid to cause any upheaval. They are afraid that immediately the government will just come and kill them. 'Cause the government has all the weapons. They have the tanks and the guns and everything. And the normal people, they don't have any weapons.
Prabhupāda: This is the age of Kali-yuga. Therefore the only shelter is Kṛṣṇa. There is no other way. In India it's practically dwindling. Now there is no reason they are not sanctioning our temple. They do not give any reason. "No!" Why "No"? "We don't give any reason." And "Kīrtana is nuisance, nuisance." They are doing that already.
Śrutakīrti: Śrīla Prabhupāda? For breakfast just fruits?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: Milk?
Prabhupāda: No. You can... Cashew and ginger. And you make, what is called, channa. In the lunch make cheese. Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make preparation.
Paramahaṁsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale, svayaṁ rūpa gosvāmī. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.
Paramahaṁsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen...
Prabhupāda: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rūpa Gosvāmī was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming?
Paramahaṁsa: Because you're the expert.
Prabhupāda: It is not just we. You have to become expert to convert another expert. If you are not experienced, how you can convert others?
Paramahaṁsa: Is it true that you will end up converting people according to your own..., in other words, you convert people of your own caliber?
Prabhupāda: Not own caliber, any caliber. That requires expert management.
Paramahaṁsa: Is there a stage after a person becomes completely purified...?
Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age—all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you-yoga, karma, jñāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... (CC Adi 17.21). This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. (break) ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement—the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds?
Prabhupāda: ...change your views victimized by these rascals. The rascals are very strong. (break) In the Sixteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā it is said, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ janā na vidur āsurāḥ. Asura. Asura, demons, demonic civilization, demonic people, they do not know what is pravṛtti and what is nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means material civilization, and nivṛtti means spiritual civilization. The modern man does not know. They are neither educated about this pravṛtti and nivṛtti. And we are speaking on nivṛtti, and all of them are in the pravṛtti. So they cannot understand. It is foreign to them. They have no idea what is spiritual life, spiritual civilization. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa spoke of all these things very clearly. Later on, the things, from the beginning of Kali-yuga, the things are deteriorating, and therefore different types of religion has sprung up. The Buddhism, Christianism, Mohammedanism. They are not perfect understanding of religious principle. And gradually the number of so-called religious section are increasing. Our Mr. Nanda is presenting another religion, mānava-dharma. Everyone is manufacturing. And Vivekananda is supporting, "Yes, every type of religious system is as good." This is nonsense. Actually, they do not know what is religion.
Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). "A blind man is leading other blind men."
Devotee (1): Instead of using the land to grow potatoes and watermelons, they're simply using it to build more offices for tables and chairs to study the situation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (pause) Life will be more more dangerous in this Kali-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic.
Amogha: But if they actually go to the forest, then that will be one step.
Prabhupāda: No, it is disappointment. It is simply disappoint... That is not solution. But people will do that. When the one is mad he doesn't know what to do—"Let me go to the forest." Achinna dāra-draviṇaṁ gacchanti giri-kānanam, it is said. Giri means mountain, and kānanam means forest. Giving up their hearth and home... They are already giving up the home, wife, children, and going away. Everybody doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because nowadays almost every girl is unmarried. So they have devised this āśrama that "Come here." And women can be sold at any cost. People are lusty. So one woman supplied, he pays hundred rupees, two hundred rupees. Business is going on.
Amogha: They come for pilgrimage?
Prabhupāda: No, no. They will be sent to your house. Pay for it. Hotel. In the Kali-yuga the sex impulse is so strong, but it is utilized in so many ways. The yogis, swamis, school, college, philosophy—at the end sex, that's all. That example, dog's tail. Whatever you do, greasing, the tail will be like this. (break) I think it is sooner. It takes time less than for going there.
Devotee (1): Oh, I came the short way.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he came by the short way.
Devotee (1):. Yes.
Prabhupāda: (break) This man is unemployed... (end)
Devotee (1): He built the subway?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The subway is still there, Brazil. Somebody said?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they found some parts of a subway there, some big tunnel. But they don't know where it goes, though.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is from Ceylon to Brazil, subway. And Rāvaṇa's civilization, Rāmacandra's fight, some millions of years ago. That is in the Tretā-yuga. The duration of Kali-yuga is about, say, four lakhs of years. And Dvāpara-yuga, eight lakhs of years. And then Tretā-yuga, twelve lakhs of years.
Paramahaṁsa: About two millions years ago, Tretā-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why? Twenty lakhs, ah, two million, yes. Two millions of years ago the Rāvaṇa's civilization was there, and he was so prosperous. He had airplane. The zeplin, zeplin?
Amogha: Jet plane?
Prabhupāda: Not jet, zeplin.
Woman: Good morning.
Prabhupāda: Good morning.
Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: For children-kill them. This is Kali-yuga. They are killing their own children and patting a dog. Just see how much fallen they are, and they're passing as civilized. Fourth class. Complaining of overpopulation, and the dog gives birth at a time half a dozen—there is no overpopulation, welcome; we shall maintain them. Huh? They're giving twice in a year, or once in a, even once in a year, that is no overpopulation. A man gives one or two birth, it is overpopulation. Formerly they are begetting hundred children. At that time there was no complaint of overpopulation. At that time, the description in the history is kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). On account of good rains, the earth used to produce immense necessities of life. Just like this portion is maintained with sufficient water, there is green everywhere. So if there is sufficient rain, everywhere you can do. Where is the question of overpopulation? (break) ...population you work for growing food. No. Some of them are becoming hippies, no work. And some of them are working for manufacturing tire tube, tools, that's all. Where is food? Still there is food, but they'll not work for this, for growing food.
Madhudviṣa: Two hundred thousand people a year.
Prabhupāda: If they spend money for the poor country, they'll not do that. Sinful man is given this form of tea(?), a tree. So, but nature is so nice that even the sinful living entities can beautify. How properly utilized. But they have no fruits and flowers.
Madhudviṣa: No. Kali-yuga trees. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...are available here? No.
Devotee: Popper? Yes.
Prabhupāda: Indian store here? No.
Devotee: Indian import store?
Madhudviṣa: Yes. Indian import store they have. We have pāpadams.
Prabhupāda: Take the ḍāl, urad ḍāl, and make it powder like flour, and knead it with oil. And give masalā and then make like cāpāṭi. And when it is dry it is pāpad. It is not difficult. Add little soda-bicarb.
Madhudviṣa: Make it stiff.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sādhana means accepting discipline.
Prabhupāda: Eh, yes. Do you think that solving the problem of birth, death and old age and disease is very easy task? (chuckles) You have to very, very strongly... Those who do not care, that is another thing. They are under these laws, going on. Life after life, they are changing body, again birth, again death, again in the womb of mother. They do not take it seriously, how risky life is that. They do not take it. "Oh, what is that?" Now, in Kali-yuga, the mother is killing the child. Even within the womb of mother is not safe. This is going on. So they do not take that how this way of life is risky and uncomfortable. They do not take it seriously. To enter again into the womb of mother, how difficult job and troublesome it is, they do not understand it. For want of education.
Australian devotee 2: Śrīla Prabhupāda, most of the people in the western world are Christians and they say the cow has no soul.
Prabhupāda: This is not the question of Christian or western. This is the disease of the whole world. It is not that only the westerners are accused, not the others. No, it is... We don't say like that. Everyone... This is the influence of this Kali-yuga.
Australian devotee 2: They feel justified in killing because they say the animal has no soul.
Prabhupāda: Just see how fool they are. Therefore we simply say these are rascals. They have not even the common sense of an uneducated man. And they are scientist. Why there is no soul? What is the proof? What is their argument? Why they say there is no soul? What is the argument?
Australian devotee 2: Because it says in the Bible that until one accepts Jesus Christ one has no soul.
Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ said that animal has no soul? Has he said like that? Has he said?
Australian devotee 2: He says that one must be born again.
Prabhupāda: Never he can say like that. He is not such a fool. He cannot say that.
Prabhupāda: That is certain. Nobody can present.
Yogi Bhajan: All right. Then that guy, that guy has the love for his conviction. Where mutual convictions can meet and still create a harmony... My honest opinion is that it is the time. World has become small. Kṛṣṇa consciousness has spread. Message of Guru Nanak has spread. Message of Lord Rāma has spread. Message of Jesus has spread. Message of Moses has spread. All right. Now the spread is going to interact. And in that, somebody with this style can come in and can represent right. You will be my personal guest and you will be in a position... We will do whatever personally we can do for that whole situation. But it will be a good idea to talk to all these people, to make them understand, and from when your mouth the person will understand why Hare Kṛṣṇa person goes on the street and chant... They have got fundamental things to say. They do not know. They have different versions to hear, they have versions to talk.
Prabhupāda: No, it is... We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That, find out the... Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14).
Yogi Bhajan: Kali-yuga mem kīrtana pradhana. Now Śrī Guru Grantha says, Guru Nanak writes himself, correct versions are many, but my idea is: it is good to hear from you.
Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yogi Bhajan: I know.
Siddha-svarūpa: Well, they burn their mattresses and they...
Prabhupāda: One slap is sufficient. (break) ...first-class man.
Upendra: That is if they have money, Prabhupāda. The poor man he suffers more.
Prabhupāda: Anardhena naya-rahitam.. This is stated in Bhāgavatam: "If you have no money, then you won't get justice." You can purchase justice. This is Kali-yuga. Anardhena naya-rahitam. (break) What people mean by religion? (break) ...not serious. Nobody is serious about religion. So what do they think about religion?
Bali-mardana: They think it is a nice thing so that the people will work hard and not create any trouble. (break)
Upendra: ...Protestant work ethic. Protestant work ethics. The western culture has developed because of that work ethic based on, "You work hard and go to church." "Work hard and believe in God," this is the advancement, why western culture is..., is one theory why it's...
Prabhupāda: Why shall I believe in God? What is the benefit? Work hard... Now, of course, I shall work hard; I will get money. That's all right. Why shall I believe in God?
Śrutakīrti: Because if you work hard and believe in God then He'll save you at death. By working hard, then you'll be saved.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-hitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brāhmaṇa means having a two cents thread. Not that brāhmaṇa. Vipratve sūtram eva ca. "To become a brāhmaṇa, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brāhmaṇa: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brāhmaṇa. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. (break) ...giving sacred thread on the Pāñcarātriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire—he wants to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness—so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Prabhupāda: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now?
Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. (break) ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of...
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brāhmaṇa, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brāhmaṇa, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. (break) Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." (break) Theological Union, when it was started.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Nineteen...
Prabhupāda: '62.
Dharmādhyakṣa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union.
Brahmānanda: When was the union started?
Bahulāśva: 1952, I think.
Prabhupāda: '62.
Prabhupāda: No, because at the present moment they are not practical. Suppose the meditation. It is not practical.
Dr. Crossley: Meditation is not practical?
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our age, that is, in the Kali-yuga, it is not.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this thing. That is not practical. And it is practical. Even a small child can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We see every day. A small child is chanting and dancing without any training.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the reason that meditation is not feasible now is because we are too much distracted in this age.
Prabhupāda: Mind is... I will meditate on my office work. When I close my eye I shall sleep. I have seen it. Big... (makes snoring noise) (laughter) I have seen it, old ladies meditating. This is not practical. Meditation is described in Vedic..., dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ: (SB 12.13.1) mind is fully absorbed in God, and he is seeing the Supreme Lord within his heart. That is meditation, not snoring. That is not meditation. Impractical. But if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately you can join, immediately, "Oh." Even the child will join. So this is practical. And that is recommended,
- kalau doṣa-nidhe rājan
- asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
- kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
- mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
- (SB 12.3.51)
That is recommended by Śukadeva Gosvāmī, that "I have described so many faults of this age of Kali, but there is one very biggest gain." What is that? "That simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa one becomes free from all material bondage." This is the special advantage of this age.
Lt. Mozee: Do you feel, sir, that it is lacking only here in the United States?
Prabhupāda: Everywhere.
Lt. Mozee: Everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. This is the age of forgetting God. We say it is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means the age of misunderstanding. And that is, I said, dirty things within the heart. So God is so powerful that if we chant the holy name of God, then we become purified. So our movement is based on this principle, chant the holy name of God. We give all facilities to everyone without any distinction that "You come with us. Come in our temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and take little prasādam, refreshment, and gradually you become purified." So if the government authorities give us facilities for this business, that we hold mass saṅkīrtana, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them little prasādam, then we are sure the whole place will change.
Prabhupāda: So this instruction is strīṣu duṣṭāsu: "When women become polluted, there is unwanted population." That is coming all over the world, the hippies. Therefore the first thing is how to train up women not to become polluted. This is the way of... In the modern society they have given women freedom. That I have already explained. In the name of freedom of woman, they are being exploited. Everything is there: social, religious, political, cultural, educational. We have to accept that course. Then everything will be all right. If you don't accept, then you have to suffer problems. It is not meant for a particular class of men or particular country, it is meant for the whole human society. Therefore, this purification of the society at the present, fallen condition is very, very difficult to revive. Because people are so fallen, it is almost impossible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that "You all together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be done nicely."
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (gatir anyathā)
- (CC Adi 17.21)
In Kali-yuga it is very difficult to reform the whole human society to become perfect by this process, Vedic process. It is not possible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's, that "You chant congregationally this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Never mind. Whatever impurities have entered, it will be all cleansed." That you have seen yesterday in the procession. So everyone was chanting in ecstasy Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have seen? Yes. So this is the process which we are trying to introduce, not anything, caste system or this system, no. Then everything will come automatically. Easiest process.
Paramahaṁsa: Originally when I came to the movement I asked you this, remember? And you gave lectures on the subject, and I asked you about it. And you asked me for what purpose I wanted it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't wonder you. But the gold has got such infection that if one... That is the whole world, that as soon as one has gold, he is no more interested with God. That is the infection. "Ah!" He will say, "This is meant for the poor class of men who has no gold. I have gold. I am God." You know that Kali-yuga. He was punished, that "You get out." Then he said that "Where shall I go? Everywhere is your kingdom." Then Parīkṣit Mahārāja said that "You go here, in the brothel, in the..., these four things." Striyaḥ śūna-pānā dyutāḥ yatra pāpāś catur-vidhāḥ: "Illicit sex, and slaughterhouse, and liquor shop, and gambling." Then he requested that "Instead of going so many places, you give me some place where one place will be sufficient." Then he said, "You go where there is gold. Then you get everything." Striyaḥ śūna-pānā dyutāḥ yatra pāpāś catur-vidhāḥ. Formerly, especially in Bengal, the gold merchants are taken as—that is artificial, of course—the low class because they are rich, and they indulge in these four kinds of prohibition. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Lalitā: Everybody is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Lalitā: If you go anywhere, he is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: He is Bhagavān.
Lalitā: Now full Kali. (Bengali) Kali-yuga (Bengali) Everybody is busy with their duties.
Prabhupāda: Ah, they are engaged.
Lalitā: No time to talk.
Prabhupāda: I don't allow them to sit down.
Lalitā: At other āśramas you go and see. I go every āśramas. So I reported that now you catch all the sādhus. I'm giving a secret letter that, "All the black marketeers with them, sitting, chatting and patting, and you catch them. Then all the smugglers you will get. Sai Baba... (Bengali) He will throw you out. And he is exploiting that girl, and I have got a picture, very bad picture, with me. (Bengali) "Bhagavān Satya Sai Baba." So she hates him. And (Bengali) I have seen Satya Sai Baba. I know he is, what type of man he is. (Bengali) Government letter, certified.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the foreign countries.
Lalitā: (Bengali) ...what personality you are.
Prabhupāda: Thousands of Americans will do that. Thousands.
Lalitā: (Bengali) Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. (Bengali) You just sit and write.
Prabhupāda: If you take my guidance I'll stay. Our guidance means on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. I don't manufacture.
Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes. What is the wrong? It is pleasure." They take it as pleasure.
Brahmānanda: The priests. They're in the theological seminary, and they are priests, and they are saying that "It is pleasurable, so why not do it?"
Prabhupāda: And what is the pleasure? Stool-passing and urine-passing points are joined together, and it is pleasure. Just see their standard of pleasure. Just like the pigs. With pleasure, they eat stool. So they think it is pleasure. Standard of pleasure has gone down so low. This is Kali-yuga. (break) ...advanced. He has disciple, guru, but he knows that he is suffering whole life for this institution. Still he'll not give it up.
Brahmānanda: He still has hope against hope.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He thinks that "I shall die peacefully if I expand the laboratory house, that I have given something to Vṛndāvana." Did he not say like that?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As if Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him to give this institution to Vṛndāvana. Such a foolish person.
Brahmānanda: Adolf Hitler adopted the idea of Aryan, but his criteria for Aryan was one who had blond hair and blue eyes.
Prabhupāda: That is bodily. (chuckles) That is another foolishness. Just like we have dress. So this dress of sannyāsī is not all. I must be real sannyāsī in knowledge, in education, in behavior, not that... Hitler studies by the dress. That is the foolishness. It is not by the dress, but by the quality. Dress is also required. As I am sannyāsī, I cannot dress otherwise. That is also essential. But if one judges, "Here is a sannyāsī," then he'll misled. That is being done. People are being exploited in the dress of a sannyāsī, although actually he is not sannyāsa. That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. "A sannyāsī or a brāhmaṇa will be accepted by the outward feature." If somebody has got a thread only, two paisa worth, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. And when one takes a daṇḍa, he becomes a sannyāsī. This will be the identification in the Kali-yuga.
Brahmānanda: So the Ramakrishna philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna philosophy is nonsense.
Brahmānanda: I know. (laughter) They say it doesn't matter what kind of dress you wear.
Prabhupāda: But "They say..." They are rascals. They can say anything. Chagale ki na khaya pagāle ki na bale: "A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat?" (laughter)
Brahmānanda: They are trying to make that more and more accepted in America, homosex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The churches accept. It is already law.
Nitāi: This women's liberation movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They're lesbians.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali-yuga. (break)
Brahmānanda: ...become ruined. The world is on the verge of ruination, but it doesn't become ruined; so therefore they think, "Oh, it doesn't matter. We can go on."
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is the meaning of ruination. (break) ...so many problems. Still it is not on the verge of ruination?
Brahmānanda: It's on the verge.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you are very much disturbed with so many problems?
Dhanañjaya : They always take the brighter side.
Prabhupāda: No. They are discussing, "There will be no more petrol. There will be no more this, no more that."
Dr. Patel: That is car-dharma.
Prabhupāda: Not car...
Dr. Patel: Car-dharma is that.
Prabhupāda: That is material dharma.
Dr. Patel: This is Kali-yuga, going on.
Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, it is excessive, but this is going on. Even... Maybe in Satya-yuga it was less.
Dr. Patel: Maybe nothing, perhaps, the first Satya-yuga. People were all saints.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: But they are fools. They should have kept more on the side of it.
Prabhupāda: It is now in the middle of the street.
Dr. Patel: The government of this country is going on everywhere.
Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do. We are world, but it is in the middle of the street.
Dr. Patel: I have got a killa. (?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. It has dignified.
Prabhupāda: The idea is: the common men, they expect something, especially Indians, that India has got some spiritual culture. So every human being is seeking after spiritual culture, but unfortunately, at the present moment they are doing something which is not very desirable, the so-called swamis and yogis. I do not wish to describe them.
Guest (2): Does your haircut have any particular significance?
Brahmānanda: The shaving of the head is a sign of surrender to the spiritual master, and we leave the śikhā...
Prabhupāda: And keep the head light instead of unnecessarily burdened. In the Kali-yuga there is a symptom. It is stated in the... Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam: "In the Kali-yuga people will think by keeping long hairs he has become beautiful." This is the mentality of this age. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. You can write this. Lāvaṇyam means luster, and keśa-dhāraṇam means keeping hair.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Cyavana: They call it Sargasso. The call it the Sargasso Sea. It floats in the center of the ocean, seaweed.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public—"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public-four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa-harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21)—only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dogs. It is very difficult. But this process—chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam—that will cure. And that is easily accepted by anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam—no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple... Just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This process should be adopted. Not in the beginning, but in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body, book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on.
Prabhupāda: From historical point of view it is copied because Vedas are created by Brahmā long, long, many millions, millions of years, and Bible is created two thousand years. So we have to take the original. All religious system of the world, they are taken from Vedas, from different parts. Therefore they are not complete. The age of Bible is not more than two thousand years. The age of Veda you cannot calculate, millions and millions of years.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is it, Prabhupāda, that in earlier parts of the Kali-yuga no one like yourself came throughout the rest of the world and preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Preached? Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached. His descendant preached. Why do you say no one preached?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But throughout the rest of the world, places like Japan and Australia...
Prabhupāda: Your calculation of the world. If it is preached anywhere, that is preached on the world. It was not spread, you can say, but it was preached.
Cyavana: The seed was planted.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Spark. Yes. Fire, big fire and spark fire—both of them fire, but one is big and one is very small. So our relationship with God is eternal. At the present moment, on account of contact with this material energy, we have forgotten our relationship with God. Therefore our life is problematic. We are facing so many problems. So again, if we revive our original consciousness, then we shall become happy. So this is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, the process how to revive our original consciousness. There are different processes, but at the present moment people are very, very fallen. This is called the age of Kali—means most fallen. Most fallen. The so-called material advancement is not the solution because God is eternal, we are eternal, and in the material condition we are changing our body. On account of our ignorance we are thinking "I am this body," but I am not this body. I am that spark, spirit, part and parcel of God.
Faill: The body is just a vehicle.
Prabhupāda: Yes, a covering. Vehicle also. Vehicle also. It is just like a machine. You go from one place to another on a motorcar machine. So this body is just like machine. On account of our material, conditional life we are thinking that "If I get this position, then I will be happy. If I get this position, I will be happy." We are creating mental concoction. But nothing will make us happy unless we come to our real position that "I am part and parcel of God. My business is to associate with God and help or cooperate with God." So that position we have to revive. And there are different types of vehicle, in the aquatic animals, then, I mean to say, plants.
Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, the brāhmaṇas will give you medical help. Āyur-Veda. They will read Āyur-Veda. They will give help.
Harikeśa: So the Āyur-Veda possibly can work nowadays.
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Harikeśa: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?
Harikeśa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money?
Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society—money.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the future in Kali-yuga looks very bleak.
Prabhupāda: Very, very black. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇ gacchanti giri-kānanam. People, general people, will be so much disgusted that they will be obliged to give up family and home and go to the forest, being disappointed: "Now I cannot manage. Let me go away."
Harikeśa: That's predestined.
Prabhupāda: Yes, predestined.
Harikeśa: But that can all change in a minute.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that can be changed only by... Therefore we are... "Go giri-kānanam, but take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." Vānaṁ gato yad harim āśrayet. "Go, leave your, this so-called family, home, and go to the forest and take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. "That is the best thing in life. If you want to be free from anxiety, give up this so-called family life. Go to the forest and take shelter of Lord Kṛṣṇa." That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's advice. Don't try to adjust it. It will not be possible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially in Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Especially in Kali-yuga. So we are offering them shelter that "In this age you are not accustomed to go to the forest. It will be more inconvenient. Come to our center and be Kṛṣṇa conscious and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your problems will be solved." This is our mission. Everyone is faced with problem. Otherwise why there is majority of suicide? Everyone is faced with problem.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's best to go this way.
Harikeśa: Oh, somebody hitting.
Prabhupāda: Shilling?
Harikeśa: No, they are playing golf.
Prabhupāda: Oh. How persistent life is this. His main body is cut into pieces; still, he's struggling to exist. He has got some attachment—"I shall live here, stand here for ten thousand years." This is māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī (BG 7.14).
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can a man's intelligence be rectified? If intelligence is the...
Prabhupāda: This hari-kīrtana, chant. Somehow or other, induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything all right. By flattering, by soliciting, by giving him prasāda, by elevating him, that "You are the best man in the world"—in this way inducing him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then he will be rectified. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There is no other way. He is ruined, and the more the Kali-yuga advances, he becomes more and more ruined. All other attempts will failure. Don't you see in your country the LSD-addicted hippies? Government spends so much money to rectify them-failure. But as soon as they come to our camp, immediately success. How it is possible?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By this chanting...
Prabhupāda: That is the amazement. That is the amazement of Professor Judah and all others, that "How it is happening? There is something in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is good propaganda with the governments also. This is good way to get the governments to support our movement more and more, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ice was coming down, hail. Hail. Before we went to the program there was hail, ice coming down. It's gone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the window there was "cut, cut." (break) ...African government policy to keep these Africans', er, service, yes, for working, get money. They will remain happy in that way. They have no brain. They cannot govern. It is not possible. So this policy is nice.
Harikeśa: Someone was telling me that the weather here was supposed to be like Miami.
Prabhupāda: Miami? (break) ...places were reserved for the sinful man in Kali-yuga. Formerly the Aryans never touched these places.
Harikeśa: Africa.
Prabhupāda: Africa or similar, other places. They were living in best places, like India. Now the number of sinful persons are increasing. Therefore they have been transferred here.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: America?
Prabhupāda: Anywhere.
Dr. Patel: Evaṁ buddhvā paraṁ buddhvā...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Saheb, Thakur Saheb, what he says is right. No, but because we are, we are apratijñāna so we don't understand it quickly. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Kali-yuga, always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma..., and everything will be clear. Last night Brahmānanda said... (break) ...that "We are sticking to you because we know we have got something from you." Otherwise they are all rich man's sons. They are aristocratic family and industry. Why? I am not bribing them. Now this Mr. Ford has come to me. I have not bribed. He is not to be bribed. (break)
Dr. Patel: Up to three o'clock we are taking rest.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: Up to four.
Prabhupāda: When it happens, you will see. Wait for few years. Do you think death will not happen to you? You are so fool to think like that?
Harikeśa: It's still going to happen to me even if I read these books.
Prabhupāda: The books are there, what is happening actually, that's all. Books... Therefore it is practical because what is written in the śāstra, that is happening. Therefore it is practical. (break) Throughout this age, the symptoms of Kali-yuga, they are happening practically.
Yaśomatīnandana: (break) ...all the Māyāvādīs, transcendentalists, they also don't believe in śāstras.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: This one man, he is a great devotee of one so-called swāmī, and he was quoting Bhagavad-gītā inside and out. And then...
Prabhupāda: He doesn't believe in.
Prabhupāda: Just like America... (laughs) Americans have not even one per cent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali...
- bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
- tayāpahṛta-cetasām
- vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ
- samādhau na dhigacchati
- (BG 2.44)
(Hindi) Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bhārata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything, young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). (Hindi) ...politics, politics, politics. (Hindi) ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence, there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Haṁsadūta: Marx's point was that the different systems, they would deteriorate one into the other, and eventually all these countries would have to... They would just evolve into that communistic way of life. That was his, his idea.
Prabhupāda: No, no, then when there will be no capital, naturally they will be communistic. That's all. Nothing to eat...
Haṁsadūta: So it's just some... It's not a philosophy but it's a position that one has to accept out of desperation.
Prabhupāda: So that is described in the Bhāgavatam, that they will be embarrassed with so many problems. That is not a communistic idea. That is the future of Kali-yuga. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. They will be harassed by famine, taxation, and starvation. Naturally they will be disappointed. Āchinna. That is already told.
Haṁsadūta: Marx, he studied history from a given point and then he just calculated the consequences.
Prabhupāda: No, that point is not new point. It is already stated five thousand years ago. So what credit he has got? If I say, "Now you are thirty-four years. At the end of hundred years you will die," is that discovery?
Haṁsadūta: No. But that was...
Prabhupāda: Everyone knows it. Everyone knows it.
Prabhupāda: There is no guarantee, sir.
Dr. Patel: No, there is (Hindi, everyone laughs). I'm sorry. Your words. Very, very crafty people in business. Nobody can beat the Americans in business. They are monopolizing the world of business today. The prosperity of America is due to the, all the (indistinct). It is correct. (pause) This is Kali-yuga. People are so faithless, human race has become faithless. They have no faith in God, they no faith in themselves, and then their friends and other human beings also.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Modern..., not faithless: animals. Yes. Dvīpāda paśu, two-legged animals. Yes. They are animal, but two legs. That is the exact word used in Bhāgavata. Two-legged animals. Dvīpāda, dvīpāda-paśu.
Dr. Patel: I think the human race should become all right by getting all these mark from God, all these...
Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is going...
Dr. Patel: This war, last, second war was so horrible, and the third will perhaps be finishing the whole cosmos.
Prabhupāda: That war is always there. But still they remain two-legged animals. It requires education.
Dr. Patel: No, no, really sir, but they are in business. They don't consider that they are this soul; they consider the body comforts and body...
Prabhupāda: That is śūdra. One has to become a brāhmaṇa, jñānam. But they have no knowledge; therefore they are śūdra. Brahmana means jñānam, vijñānam and āstikya: "Yes, there is God, and He is the original cause of everything." That is brahma-jña. Brahma jñānārthī brāhmaṇa. So where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdras. Kalau śūdra sambhava—especially in this age of Kali, everyone is śūdra, or less than śūdra. But still Kṛṣṇa gives the opportunity striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32), he may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the śūdras, they also.
Dr. Patel: Just like the essence of the Vedic knowledge has been given in the story form in the Bhāgavata. That is how these people could understand that. These...
Prabhupāda: It is not story. It is history...
Dr. Patel: No, no, some are stories and divya stories.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is history and philosophy. They are not stories. Where it is a story, it is mentioned it is like a story. Just like this bhāvārthābdhi.. That is mentioned there. There are many such statements which is not history, but, what is called? Instruction. But they take everything, "It is fabulous."
| Page Title: | Kali-yuga (Converations 1967 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 17 of Feb, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=131, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 131 |