Prabhupāda: ...clearly described, what is God, what is the distinction between God and other demigods, living entity. Everything is clearly explained. So you can talk all nonsense without Bhagavad-gītā. That is another chapter. But if you claim that "We read Bhagavad-gītā," you cannot say like that. That is our propaganda. If you actually have read Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot say all this nonsense. (break)
Dr. Patel: ...common features of Kṛṣṇa are common to all paramparās. It can't be different from one another.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Paramparā. He says, "As soon as this paramparā was lost, the Bhagavad-gītā was lost." Naṣṭaḥ, it is said, naṣṭaḥ. "Therefore I am taking you again as paramparā." You see? If you do not accept...
Dr. Patel: What you say... I mean... Listen. This is one of the way of seeing things.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you see... open, open (indistinct)
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is so multifarious and so multiple energies He has got that only ekasmin...
Prabhupāda: No, no, here it is said, in the Fourth... This is Fourth Chapter?
Dr. Patel: No, this is Twelfth Chapter. I am reading the common features of all the sādhus. Adveṣṭā sarva-bhūtānāṁ maitraḥ karuṇa eva ca, nirmamo nirahaṅkāraḥ, nirahaṅkāraḥ (BG 12.13). We must have (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: No, that is ahaṅkāra, that "I have got my own interpretation." That is ahaṅkāra.
Dr. Patel: But you say your own interpretation also. That is also ahaṅkāra, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I am taking the interpretation of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: He must be also taking in that way.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: With all my due respect, sir, well, we must have some sort of forbearance for others' views.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Because if we have got to preach, we cannot make any compromise.
Dr. Patel: You feel that way, we have no objection. But we should also respect somebody else's views.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got all respect, but not unnecessary respect.
Dr. Patel: But even unnecessary respect sometimes you unnecessarily go beyond, according to the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we have respect. But a thief should be called a thief. That is truth.
Dr. Patel: You are the magistrate and you are the judge and you are the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not judge. I am talking on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: (BG 7.15) "One who is a narādhamāḥ, he does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So this is judgement. Ah! As soon as we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, we accept, narādhamāḥ. That's all. Whatever he may be.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is not only one name. There are... All the names of God are...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is Māyāvāda.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Then we disbelieve that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got name...
Dr. Patel: All the names of God are Kṛṣṇa's names. That is what we are taught from our birth.
Prabhupāda: Then why you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? You can chant any name.
Dr. Patel: No, but we want to chant Kṛṣṇa's name. That's all. That is the purest.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that is contradictory. You said... Sometimes you say that Kṛṣṇa has got many names...
Dr. Patel: If I say, "Christ, Christ, Christ," it is, also goes to Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (4): But do you think all the medicines are equal?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, there are some potent medicines, all are equal. And there is Kṛṣṇa and there is Christ and there is Bhagavān and there is Viṣṇu and there is Rāma. The same medicine with multiple names. Okay?
Indian man (4): Well, then it is the same disease.
Dr. Patel: All the disease, one medicine.
Prabhupāda: Then why don't you prescribe a particular...
Dr. Patel: Because this is supernatural. This is not ordinary medicine. This is not the medicine of earthly things. This is the medicine of super things. That is why one name, all. What do you want to say in this interpretation? Because we are not dealing with earth here. We are dealing with spiritual things. And... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...sane body cannot prescribe one medicine for everyone.
Dr. Patel: But that is in this earth. In this māyā. But beyond māyā, you can prescribe one medicine for all. That is Kṛṣṇa's medicine. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...says, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ, these words. (break) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: Right, but we are prapadyante.
Prabhupāda: We are talking only... We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. That is our business. It may be palatable or not palatable. It doesn't matter. We have to place as it is. That criterion is there, that... (break)
Dr. Patel: ...whether he had come from the lowest of the low. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...realization is this, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he must be one of these: duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ narādhamāḥ māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.
Dr. Patel: How can you say people are...?
Prabhupāda: Vedas, Kṛṣṇa says. We are fool, rascal. We simply repeat Kṛṣṇa's words. That's all. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā, then you have to accept like that.
Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā is not the secondary I mean other, literatures. (break) Why not? Have I no right to read?
Prabhupāda: You can have right to misinterpret. That's all right. But we are not going to do that. No.
Dr. Patel: It all depends upon my own intelligence.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break)
Dr. Patel: ...dadāmi yogo 'ham. He gives me that yoga and I read that way. How can you say that? I have got no power excepting the power given by God.
Prabhupāda: When you take intelligence from Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: That is what He gives me and I take it.
Prabhupāda: And He says that "If you don't surrender Me, then you are mūḍhā, narādhama." He says that. He says that.
Dr. Patel: No, that is not... I mean, you are too harsh.
Prabhupāda: Why harsh? I am quoting Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante... (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā, no... Final śāstras are the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Then don't accept Bhagavad-gītā.
Dr. Patel: We are accepting because it is the sarva ga...
Prabhupāda: Then don't accept the words. You accept Bhagavad-gītā...
Dr. Patel: How can you say, "Don't accept..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, here it is clearly said that "Anyone who is not surrendered to Me, he is a miscreant, rascal, mūḍhā, everything." That is the test.
Dr. Patel: What do you mean by surrendering? Surrendering to His will. "Are you surrendered to My will and fight? And, my boy, I have already killed them." That is what we read in the Eleventh Chapter. In that surrender to His will, God's will. That is surrender. (Hindi) (break)
Prabhupāda: That is your interpret... Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65).
Dr. Patel: Mām means...
Prabhupāda: Oh mām means? Again mām means?
Dr. Patel: ...mām means will, Kṛṣṇa, who is representing the (indistinct) ātmā. He is outer Kṛṣṇa. Real Kṛṣṇa is the guru, not even the mūrti, the arca-pūjā.
Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation.
Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation. That is all intelligence of the world. And if you say no, well, I am prepared to own it. It's not right, sir, to be harsh on intelligence, sir.
Prabhupāda: What is intelligence? Mūḍhā?
Dr. Patel: Intelligence is given by God and...
Prabhupāda: If one is a mūḍhā, where is intelligence? Why shall I give him the credit of intelligence? He is a mūḍhā. One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhā. Number one. There is no intelligence. One who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he has no intelligence. (end)