Pater Emmanuel: Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God love?
Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not?
Pater Emmanuel: I agree.
Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real.
Pater Emmanuel: Will that means that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source?
Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like.
Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you.
Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians, they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position.
Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient. Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not?
Pater Emmanuel: Um...
Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed.
Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing.
Pater Emmanuel: And you think it's a principle point, the top point.
Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. (German) Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come.
Pater Emmanuel: I understand.
Prabhupāda: This is called ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya (Cc. Ādi-līlā 5.176). If you... I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken. The chicken or what is called, cock, that?
Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens.
Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen?
Haṁsadūta: Hen.
Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that "This mouthpiece is expensive because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because it's a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole, this side and that side, then business will go on. (German)
Pater Emmanuel: In the Christian tradition... (German)
Prabhupāda: The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God?
Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says, the Christianity understands...
Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, killing and murder. Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word murder instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. (German)
German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking...
Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill"—the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. (German)
Pater Emmanuel: No, I understand.
Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? (German)
German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel:) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing?
Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same?
Pater Emmanuel: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also the same.
Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable because our Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). (German)
German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty-upahṛtam.
German devotee: (reads translation in German)
Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants: "Give me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. (German) But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa-viddham, sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine, but you cannot drink urine. (German) So the injunction is tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful... Just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight the commander in chief says, "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam." So we are not sinful.
Pater Emmanuel: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom in the nature's way... Just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (German) (break) The perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam. Find out. (break) ...killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. (German)
Pater Emmanuel: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting Christ or Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant Kṛṣṇa, you chant Christ or Christo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. He says that God has got many multi names. Any one of them you chant because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designationless, if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name, then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu, here is Muslim, here is Christian, here is white, here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. (German)
Pater Emmanuel: I agree.
Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?
Pater Emmanuel: No.
Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up...
Pater Emmanuel: On my part, I...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty-four hours. Actually this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen. Hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousands churches, but they are not going on. So this experience... In Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian preach in Boston, he issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?"
Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?"
Pater Emmanuel: What was your answer?
Prabhupāda: Answer. What the answer?
Umāpati (?): Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German.
Prabhupāda: No no. The answer I gave, you do not remember?
Umāpati: Because they are intelligent.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes.
Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I understand.
Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes?
Guest: (German)
German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence but it is a question of humility.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement?
Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth."
Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road, if they see me, they immediately fall down flat. Never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said,
- yasya deve parā bhaktir
- yathā deve tathā gurau
- tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
- prakāśante mahātmanaḥ
- (ŚU 6.23)
Yasya... "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." (German)
Pater Emmanuel: (German)
German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others.
Pater Emmanuel: Exercise upon others.
Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect.
Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena. You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others.
Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart.
Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice.
Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this...
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (everyone goes out-end of this discussion) (Break)