John Mize: When the soul was in the spiritual sky, it also had a mind and an intelligence like here?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Unless he has got mind, how he misuses intelligence?
John Mize: But he misused that intelligence in his freedom, his independence.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mind is there also. That is spiritual mind. Everything is spiritual. There is nothing material. Body spiritual, mind spiritual, intelligence spiritual, he is spiritual, the land spiritual, water spiritual—everything is spiritual. That is spiritual world. Here in the material world, except the spirit soul, everything is material. And he is encumbered with this material atmosphere by twenty-seven stratas, layers. The five elements, gross elements, then ten senses, and then three guṇas... In this way there are twenty-seven layers. He is within, and he has to be taken out. That is called liberation. Just like if you are covered with twenty-seven layers of dirty things, so it is very difficult position. But there is process to clear the garbage and take him out. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, to take the soul out of the covering of twenty-seven layers of material atmosphere. That śloka is naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu: "almost cleansed." Abhadra, abhadra means dirty things. So this clearing process going on. When it is almost cleansed the man feels, "Oh..." And that process: nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18), constantly being engaged in the service of Bhāgavata, grantha-Bhāgavata and the person Bhāgavata. Then it will be cleansed. And then, when he comes out, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), "Oh, I am now free." Na śocati na..., no more lamentation, no more greediness. Everything finished. Then he begins his real business as part and parcel of God. That is perfection.
Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, in the Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, "Nature, Enjoyer, and Consciousness," in verse number six and seven you mention those twenty-seven coverings: "The five great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifest, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hate, happiness, and distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms and convictions—all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and their interaction." And...
Prabhupāda: By the material life, these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things, but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "Kut, kut, kut, kut, kut, kut." But one has to push the button; otherwise useless. However very nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul is out it is lump of matter, useless, not worth a penny. Throw it away. So we are giving importance to the machine, not to the person who is dealing with the machine. This is the folly of modern civilization. We are thinking like child, "The machine is working independently." But that is not the fact. The big airship, 747, is flying because the pilot is there, and the pilot is a soul, covered by another bodily machine. And that, that is missing point in the modern civilization, that who is working with the machine. That they do not know. That is ignorance. It is said—you see Bhagavad-gītā,
- īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
- bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
- yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
- (BG 18.61)
Yantra means machine. So the modern education is missing the pilot. They are simply wandering with the machine. Read it.
Jayatīrtha:
- īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
- bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
- yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
- (BG 18.61)
"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy."
Prabhupāda: That's it. They do not consider this body as machine. In spite of all education, they are thinking that there is no other element than this machine. And actually, they are finding that big, nice machine, computer, without an operator, it does not work. And this huge machine is working without any spiritual touch? Just see how foolishness. They think automatically working. Nature is working automatically. Do they not think?
John Mize: They think there's a mind, but not a soul.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Something is there which is working. Now that may be mistake. You call it soul or mind. That is next understanding. But the machine is not working independently. That should be understood first. Then how the machine is working that will be next chapter. So they have no understanding even that how the machine is working. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That they do not know, mūḍhas. So if you do not know how the machine is working then what is the value of your education? Education means enlightenment. You do not know what is the final cause, that huge body is working as nature, so many planets, so many big, big planets like sun, moon, they are floating in the air. Who has made this arrangement? They are... We see every day. They will never accept God is the original cause. That thing does not come to their brain. They are putting forward different theories and that is being accepted. One theory is accepted today, and tomorrow, "No, no, this is not. Here is another, advanced theory." That advanced means he does not know.