Young man (4): Swamiji, if a man admits or comes to the conclusion that his mind is chaos...
Prabhupāda: Chaos?
Young man (4): In seeking to bring order into the chaos...
Prabhupāda: Mind's business is...
Young man (4): In seeking to bring order to this chaos, won't his natural path open before him? Won't he naturally come to spiritual sādhana?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the question?
Young man (4): I say, if a man sits down and admits to himself that his mind is chaotic, in trying to bring order to this chaos, won't his natural spiritual path open before him, when he sets about purifying his mind?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, if someone is sitting down and the mind is very chaotic, and, he says, is there not something inherent within the living being that automatically that chaos will go away of its own accord?
Young man (4): No, no, no, that's not what I said.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It isn't?
Young man (4): No, it's not what I said. What I said was, when finally man comes to the conclusion that his mind is chaotic—there is no order—when he admits this to himself and he looks to find a way to purify his mind, will not the spiritual sādhana open up naturally?
Indian man (1): Without a guru.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the point I'm making. I mean that's something within himself.
Prabhupāda: Without a guru? That is not possible.
Young man (4): Hm?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Young man (4): It is not possible?
Prabhupāda: Just like if you are mad—the mind is not in order—you go to a physician to treat you. That is the way. If your mind is not in order, what do you do? You go to a psychiatrist, you go to an expert for treatment.
Young man (4): No, no, this is... No.
Prabhupāda: That is the way. If you do not go, then you'll become mad.
Young man (4): No, no, no.
Prabhupāda: What is that "No, no, no"? You said that your mind is in chaotic condition.
Young man (4): Yes?
Prabhupāda: So you have to treat it.
Young man (4): Yes, but not necessarily through a psychiatrist. I mean, it's a matter of admitting to oneself that there is an impurity...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Indian man (2): If I know that in my own mind my mind is chaotic...
Prabhupāda: Then if you know, then where is chaotic condition? This is nonsense.
Young man (4): Nonsense?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you know, then where is chaotic condition?
Indian man (1): If you know that your mind is in a chaotic condition, your mind is not in a chaotic condition.
Young man (4): This is not what I'm saying. I say...
Prabhupāda: So what you say? We don't hear.
Young man (4): What I'm saying is one is admitting to oneself that their mind is not pure...
Prabhupāda: That means chaotic condition.
Young man (4): When one admits to oneself that their mind...
Prabhupāda: That means a... He is in chaotic condition. A madman—he admits or not-he's a madman.
Young man (4): I don't understand...
Prabhupāda: You cannot understand—because you are madman. That's all.
Indian woman (5): Swamiji, if you understand the message of Gītā, that Kṛṣṇa says, recommends even-mindedness and...
Prabhupāda: Even...?
Indian man (1): Samatā.
Indian woman (5): And do not grieve because this body is meant for death. Now, I think also...
Prabhupāda: So that requires training.
Indian woman (5): Then also compassion will come in, yeah?
Prabhupāda: Everything requires training.
Indian woman (5): But if you are compassionate, you feel the pain. Then how does that go with even-mindedness?
Prabhupāda: Compassion... That is little advanced. That's all. But that is not the stage of perfection. That animal has also, compassion. That is not a very big thing.
Indian man (1): You mean from human point of view.
Indian woman (5): No.
Indian man (1): Not to hold in doubt.
Indian woman (5): Can the human heart feel compassion?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian woman (5): The human heart cannot take to compassion?
Prabhupāda: There is compassion. It is revived. That's all. All the good qualities are there, because he's part and parcel of God, but in ignorance they are now covered. You have to discover. Just like Brahman. You are Brahman by nature, but you are thinking, "I am this...," "I am American," "I am Indian." And that is your disease. "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am gṛhastha." "I am sannyāsī." That is your disease, more or less. But actually you are Brahman because you are part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman. So when you actually realize yourself-brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54)—no problems. All problem finished. So that is required.
Indian man (1): In that state also, there will be compassion.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of compassionate. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. You are in a normal stage. Śocati. Compassion is also śocati: "Oh, this man is poor. I'll help him." That is śocati. That brahma-bhūtaḥ, na śocati na kāṅkṣati. That is really... Where is compassion? He has taken this material body. He has to suffer. What is, your compassion will help him?
Indian woman (5): But it seems to come...
Prabhupāda: That first of all you understand. You have to die. If I think, "Oh, you should not die," so what my, this compassion will help you? You have to die. Then what is the use of this compassion? If you give him something that he will not die, that is real compassion. Suppose if there is a boil here, I am suffering, and you come, "Oh, you are suffering?" is that compassion?
Indian woman (5): But you feel a pain also in your...
Prabhupāda: You feel, but what is the meaning of that feeling? You cannot do anything.
Indian woman (5): No. It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: So this kind of compassion also, it is all useless. It is wasted.
Young man (6): I have... In my life I've seen some people... I haven't seen them all. I have read books, and I've met people that, that, you know, people that don't know. Some know more than others, and what I've seen is that there is always a point in everybody's mind and everybody's being where they draw the line between madness and sanity, between right and wrong, and the question in my mind is: Who makes the rules, and where do the rules come from? Because, I know, any society... For instance, in India there are the Indian scriptures, the Bhagavad-gītā and so on, and this is the basis of all Indian society. In the West there is the Christian scriptures, the Jewish scriptures. And they all have rules. They all have rules right down to the daily conduct of people, what they're supposed to eat, and they don't agree on what people are supposed to eat. Now, does that make one person who does not follow one set of rules wrong by another set of rules?
Prabhupāda: No, first principle is that you have to follow the rules.
Young man (6): What rules?
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.
Young man (6): Which rules are for me?
Prabhupāda: That is...
Young man (6): That is the point.
Prabhupāda: That is next. First of all, as you say, in Christian there is rules, there are Muhammadans' rules, there are Hindu rules. Rules are there. Now you have to select which rules you shall follow. That will depend on your dress. But rules you have to follow. That is everywhere. If you think that "There are so many rules. I won't follow," then you are lost.
Indian man (1): Follow some rules.
Young man (6): There are some rules, I mean...
Prabhupāda: Everywhere.
Young man (6): Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you have to follow rules. Now it is up to you, which rule you shall follow.
Young man (6): Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is your choice. That requires brain.
Young man (6): My choice is not to judge anybody, good or bad, or mad or insane.
Prabhupāda: Then you are lost.
Young man (6): Only 'cause I know my own sanity.
Prabhupāda: Then that means you make your own rule. You have to follow rules. But you make your own rules.
Young man (6): Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you have to follow the rules. That is a fact. Either your own rules or Christian rules or Muslim rules or Hindu rules, you have to follow rules. That's a fact. Now, that I have already told. Now make your own choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). If you think your rules will solve this problem... Real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). If you think that following your rules will solve this problem, then you follow.
Young man (6): Many people are bound by rules.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of "many people." We are talking of philosophy. (break) And we shall say, "Follow the rules laid down by Kṛṣṇa." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, if you like, you do. Or you live to your own rules. Take that. We shall advise to follow the rules of Kṛṣṇa. And practically you see. By following the rules of Kṛṣṇa we have created Vaiṣṇavas in whole world, hundreds and thousands. Ask their past history and now, how they have changed. Example is better than precept, which rule is better. Actually this is the fact. We are under the rules of nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Everything is acting under the rules of material nature. Just like you are young man. Now, you cannot say, "I'll not become old man." Can you? And you are forced by the rules of nature. Can you deny?
Young man (3): No. In one way...
Prabhupāda: So you accept or not accept, you have to follow the rules of material nature.
Young man (3): I admit I can't...
Prabhupāda: Then you are under the rules of material nature. You have to admit.
Young man (3): Ah, but in spiritual life...
Prabhupāda: Why do you jump over spiritual life? First of all try to understand your material nature, what you are at the present moment, that you are on the rules of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). That you cannot avoid. So what is the use of making your own rules?
Young man (3): Ah, but you're not understanding the rules of nature.
Prabhupāda: No, that understanding... First of all you have to understand that you are under the rules of material nature, and you accept or not accept, you'll be forced by nature.
Young man (3): Ah, this is understood.
Prabhupāda: That understanding... Then it will be all right. And what is the use of your own rules? If you are forced to accept the rules of material nature, then what is the use of foolish rules? You have to accept. When material nature rules, you must die. You cannot avoid it. You must die. You must change body. You must be. So what is the use of your rules? You can manufacture as a madman. You are completely forced to accept the material nature.
Young man (6): What are the rules of the material nature? Again, from experience, I know that one year, I couldn't do something and then, with a certain amount of practice, the next year I could. And so the rule has changed. It no longer is out of my grasp.
Prabhupāda: Not changed. You think that.
Young man (6): But my ability to work...
Prabhupāda: Your ability to work is destined. Why don't you understand this? What you are? Why you are thinking yourself very big? That is your nonsense. You are under the rules of material nature. You'll be forced. That is real understanding, that "I don't want this. Why material nature forces me?" That is real knowledge. "Why? Why I am under the material rules?" Then knowledge begins.
Young man (3): Ah, this is understood, but...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you think stick to your own rules, that "I don't care for your material rules," who cares for you?
Young man (3): But one must train themselves...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is knowledge. You meditate upon this, that "I do not want to die. Why there is death?"
Young man (6): "I don't want..."?
Indian man (1): "Why is there death? I am forced to die."
Young man (3): I'm thinking he's not (indistinct) properly.
Prabhupāda: So the real problem is birth, death, old age and disease, and by following any rules, if you can stop this problem, then you are successful. It doesn't matter what is your brand of rules, but the problem is there. And we are suggesting that mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... If you want to avoid the rules of material nature, then you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. We are suggesting. If you like, you can take it. But you are under the rules of material nature. That you cannot say, "No." (aside:) Now give them prasādam.
Trivikrama: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you come tomorrow again at five o'clock, every day there'll be darśana.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much for your coming. Jaya. Jaya. Five to six? (end)