Prabhupāda: Viṣaya means this sense gratificatory business, you will have in any life. In bird's life, in dog's life, in cat's life. So do you think that human life is also meant for that purpose? Then what is the meaning of civilization? Is that civilization? If the end of life is the same, just like cats and dogs, is it civilization? They do not know what is civilization. They have forgotten. They think that eating very nicely in a palatable dish, that is civilization. But eating is eating. And if you eat... If you are hungry, anything satisfies you. That is eating. Finish. You can eat. Sleeping. When you are fast asleep, you do not know whether you are on the nice building in a nice apartment. You are dreaming that you are thrown into the ocean. So sleeping. So simply for nice arrangement for sleeping, is that civilization? (break) Then life is successful. At least, if one understands that "This is my business. My business is not to work hard and end it by sense gratification. This is not my business." That is saṁsiddhi. That is success. If, at least, one understands this aim of life, even little understands, he gets next human body. That is guaranteed.
What is the meaning of... (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: What is the hand attire which you are wearing? What is the meaning of this?
Prabhupāda: I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa whenever there is opportunity, and there are beads. So I am chanting on beads. There are 108 beads and each bead we chant sixteen names, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. So my disciples, they chant at least sixteen rounds.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Of course, in Vaikuṇṭha-jagat there is no violence. But Viṣṇu is taking the symbol of violence. Otherwise what is the meaning of this disc and club? So when He wants to be violent, He comes here as Nṛsiṁha-mūrti. (laughter) And He sends some of His devotees to play violence. That is Hiraṇyakaśipu.
Prabhupāda: Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers.
Prabhupāda: That you have to test. Now I have given you this one formula. By following any guru or any principle, if you actually develop your love of God, then it is nice. Otherwise it is useless waste of time. That is the test. But they, so far I know, these yogis, they are themselves God. They say that everyone is God. And who is dog? So I think it is not very congenial. How everyone can be God? Then what is the meaning of God?
Guest (1): (inaudible)
Prabhupāda: If everyone is God then what is the meaning of God? You must give definition of God. If you do not, then you do not know what is God. Therefore you are asking.
Prabhupāda: You are not God because God... You do not know what is the meaning of God. What do you mean by God? First of all define.
Guest (3): Everything is God.
Prabhupāda: If you apply that definition, then you are God. First of all define what is God.
Guest (3): God is everything. God is it.
Prabhupāda: That is not the definition. God is not everything.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva and moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion. What is that illusion? Accepting this body as self. So if one is contaminated by sinful activity—if he is in illusion, how he can..., illusion of accepting this body as self—what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: You understand what is the meaning of Bhāgavata, this word, Bhāgavata? You understand? These are the common questions. If you do not understand this common question then how you can instruct others?
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: It is illusion, simply illusion. If I am God, how I have become so much dependent on the laws of material nature? Why I have accepted this body which I do not want? What kind of God I am? So the whole world is full of these ideas. So this movement is a revolutionary movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest (5): (Hindi) What is the meaning of God.
Prabhupāda: He does not... He does not know what is meaning of God. He thinks that God is something plaything. Therefore he claimed that "I am God." He does not know what is God. Therefore God personally showing—He's coming, Kṛṣṇa: "What is God, see." God is from very beginning God. Kṛṣṇa, from the birth He is God. He hasn't got to meditate. He hasn't got to go to the forest and..., to become God. He is God.
Prabhupāda: Avatāra means avatāran. (Hindi) What is the meaning of descent? What is the meaning of descent? Coming down. Coming down. Yes.
Guest: In the sense of quality or in the sense of form.
Prabhupāda: The sense of form. Because your brain is congested with impersonalism, you cannot understand what is spiritual form. That is your defect.
Prabhupāda: What is milk? Milk is transformation of the blood. So, cow's milk means cow's blood, but still the cow is not killed. Cow's blood is nutritious, accepting this theory. Karnish (?), karnish it is called? Cow's blood? What is the meaning of karnish (?)? But by nature's way she is delivering you the blood which is nutritious—according to your science—but why you should kill her? So any circumstances, the direct killing is not approved by any śāstra, any religion.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Impersonalist: What is the meaning of Rāma?
Prabhupāda: Rāma. Rāma is enjoyer. Ramante yogino 'nante. Yogīs, they want eternal enjoyment. Here in this material world you can enjoy something for some few minutes or few hours, but if you want eternal enjoyment, ramaṇa, then Rāma, that is Rāma.
Prabhupāda: You do not know what is the meaning of science?
Martin: No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: Then why you call science? How do you call "This is scientific"?
Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen.
Prabhupāda: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science.
Prabhupāda: Well, saṁskāra you can change in a second. Saṁskāra may be powerful. (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa assures you, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He will give you protection. Saṁskāra means you did some sinful activities and you are suffering. But He gives you protection. Sarva-pāpebhyo. Then what is the meaning of saṁskāra? You can change your saṁskāra immediately by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Why you are so much concerned with saṁskāra?
Prabhupāda: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, "What we have done?" They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn't matter. The process should be quest of God. What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we... what we are? What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science.
Prabhupāda: If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my, this so-called nationality at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? What is that education? You are darkness, nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a, different stages. But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that what is this meaning of gṛhastha, and vānaprastha, and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is the meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know, that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate of life.
Scholar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If he does not know, if he is in darkness for the next life, then what is the meaning of this gṛhastha and vānaprastha and this...?
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Future, that is not science. Trust no future, however pleasant. This is the word. What is this? Everyone will say future. Trust no future, however pleasant. You may think it is very pleasurable. Why future? If you say that the biology, chemistry is the beginning of this life, so you are now so much advanced. Why don't you create? Then what is the meaning of your advancement? You're talking nonsense.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of that such thinking, in such wretched condition? But he's thinking.
Brahmānanda: If we tell him to join us, he won't like it.
Prabhupāda: No, because he's thinking this is happiness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this."
Prabhupāda: Might be that word was not properly used. Sthāṇu, the word is sthāṇu. If you have got Sanskrit, you know what is the meaning of sthāṇu. And acalo 'yam, acalo 'yam, yes.
Revatīnandana: The point of all those...
Prabhupāda: That means acalo 'yam also, so acalo 'yam. Acalo 'yam means that does not move. Sthāṇur acalo 'yam, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now the Christ, what is the meaning of Christ?
Mr. Wadell: I, well, it is this that he is the anointed.
Prabhupāda: No, Christ means love, something like that.
Student (1): Is that what you're trying to do in your movement?
Prabhupāda: No, my movement... I am talking of yoga syst... What is my movement, that we shall discuss later on. First of all the question was the yoga. You asked me that. Yoga means to control the mind and the senses. So if one is not able to control the mind and senses, he does not know what is the meaning of yoga. That... You read Bhagavad-gītā? Bring Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: But those who are thinking good for all humanity, they should note this defect, that simply giving him nice food, nice shelter, nice sex facilities and nice defense, his problem of life is not solved. He should be given enlightenment about God consciousness. And if he is educated in that way, if he, by next life, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. This education is lacking. So we are trying in our small endeavor. But if leading personalities like you of the society, they try to understand this philosophy scientifically, critically, and take it seriously, they can, there will be great benefit for the human society. The program we have got, but we are not leading personalities. You are all leading personalities. At least in England. Lord... This group, House of Lords is there. It was always there. In previous days also. They were called amātyas. All leading men of the society, they used to give advice to the king. And brāhmaṇas also. I think the knighthood means that. What is the meaning of this knighthood? Eh? Personal advisors to the king?
Lord Brockway: Not necessarily to the king. It's a recognition of some service to society, but it doesn't mean any close association with the monarch.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. But knight means the associates of the monarch, is it not the meaning?
Śyāmasundara: No. It's more like an award, I think, given to someone who has done service.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. This is recognition. But this "knight," this very word, means "associates of the monarch?" Is that...? No.
Lord Brockway: I don't think so. It may have done in its original form...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lord Brockway: ...when the number of knights were much less than they are today.
Prabhupāda: I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the use of talking of universal brotherhood when you actually do not treat like that?
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But that is due to his lack of God consciousness. He'll talk very high words, but practically he cannot do it.
Śyāmasundara: No information.
Prabhupāda: Yes, no information. Just like the commu... Even in communist country. They, they are thinking that national, everything should be national. So what is the meaning of national? Means any living entity born in that country is national. So why the poor animals are not nationals? That is, means lack of God consciousness. He does not know. He thinks simply human being national.
Lord Brockway: Oh, I agree. I'm a vegetarian.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this is all due to lack of God consciousness. Therefore the only remedy is to make people God conscious, thoroughly, perfectly. Then everything will be all right.
Reporter: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?
Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness.
Reporter: No, no, (laughs), in the sense of Gītā.
Prabhupāda: Karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam. So akarma means, that is bhaktyā. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma-bandhanaḥ. Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajñārthe, for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma, that is akarma. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.
Prabhupāda: That... Vikarma means..., karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate the injunction of the śāstra.
Prabhupāda: The metaphysical search... Now metaphysically search out why do you deny soul in the human being, uh, in the animals? That is metaphysical. It is metaphysical question. What is your metaphysical study about the living, uh, animals that you say there is no soul? Come to the metaphysical then. You are thinking metaphysically. That's all right. But if you are still thinking like animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical studies? If you are thinking like the animals: "Where shall I get my food? Where shall I take shelter? Where shall I have sexual facility? How shall I defend?" If you are thinking like that, this is animal thinking. Metaphysical thinking means beyond this, beyond this thinking of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is metaphysical thinking. So what you are thinking beyond that? That is God consciousness. When a human being thinks about God, that is metaphysical. When he thinks like animals about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is not metaphysical. Metaphysical. What do you mean by metaphysical? How to define? What is the meaning of "meta"? Above physical. That means spiritual. So if you think spiritually, then you'll see. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa claims: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). "In all forms of life, the living entities are there, and they are My sons." So this is metaphysical, or if some third-class man says that there is no soul in the animal, that is metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? Kṛṣṇa speaking will be metaphysical, or a third-class fool's statement will be taken as metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? First of all say me.
Yogeśvara: Then he made the point that in a place like India it's foolish where so many people are dying of starvation, not to kill the cow on some religious principle.
Prabhupāda: That is another story. No Indians are dying, not by eating cow's flesh. That, that is the theory at the present moment given. But there are so many vegetarians in India. They do not touch even fish, or eggs, or animal flesh. They're quite healthy.
Haṁsadūta: But they consider it to be God's flaw.
Prabhupāda: No, why God's flaw.
Yogeśvara: Because He has given us the chance to fall down.
Prabhupāda: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.
Yogeśvara: Then why has He given us independence if...
Prabhupāda: Yes, He must give because we, He, He has got...
Yogeśvara: ...if we misuse it?
Prabhupāda: He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore you must have independence. Otherwise, how he becomes perfect part and parcel?
Prabhupāda: So how you can trace out the history of Vedas? Vedas means knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So first of all find out from which date knowledge began. Then you find out the date of the Vedas.
David Lawrence: Yes, it seemed to me, I tried to read certainly, A.L. Basham...
Prabhupāda: Those who know Sanskrit, they know what is the meaning of Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda-vid jñāne. Jñāna means knowledge. That means the history of Veda means from the date of creation of this material world. Now find out the date of creation of the material world. Approximately, nobody can give what is the date of. We can, we cannot... Date of Brahmā, he got the, first of all, the Vedic knowledge. Now, one day of Brahmā you cannot calculate. One day of Brahmā. And the... When Brahmā's night is there, there is devastation up to some extent. So again in the daytime of Brahmā, that creation takes place. There are two kinds of devastation. One devastation is at the night of Brahmā and one final devastation is the whole cosmic manifestation finished. So these teeny people, they are after the dates of Vedas, and that is ludicrous, that is...(laughs) Just like there are many microbes, they grow in the evening and die just in the day beginning. So whole night is their span of life. So our life is like that. What history you can write? Therefore, we receive Vedic knowledge from the authorities.
Prabhupāda: Christ?
Haṁsadūta: What does it mean that Christ died for us, in order that we may live. Or in other words, died for our sins. He wants to know, because he's going to live anyway, he's eternal anyway, what is the meaning of that statement? What is the meaning?
Prabhupāda: So far I understand, the Christians give explanation that Christ took the resultant action of sinful life of everyone and he condoned by his giving his own life. Is that not?
Haṁsadūta: Yes. It is.
Prabhupāda: You are always. But you forgot. That is our position.
Guest (2): No, I believe I was respecting all religions, all gods, but now I think I lay more emphasis on Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: How can be all Gods then? That is practical. If everyone is God, then what is the meaning of God? If... Do you think everyone is president, everyone is Indira Gandhi? Indira Gandhi is one. The Prime Minister cannot be many. It is a common sense. How everyone can be God? This is nonsense. Anyone thinks that there are many gods, he does not know what is God. Aiye. God is one. Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. Therefore there is no education what is God. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagava... Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "Nobody else superior than Me." That is God. Asama-ūrdhva. God is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as asama-ūrdhva. You can come this side? Let them come forward. You sit down... (break) ...equal to God. And nobody can be greater than God. That is "God is great." If somebody becomes equal to you, how you can be great? Or if somebody is higher than you, then how you can be great? So there is no equal to God, nor greater than Him. That is God. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). (break) "...anyone greater than Me." That is God. There are so many Gods, false gods, nowadays. Can anyone say that "Nobody is greater than me"? All these rascal Gods, can he say? Can anyone say? Immediately... He feels some sickness. Immediately he has to call greater God, physician. And he's claiming, "I am God." We don't want such kind of God, manufactured God. We want real God. When we see nobody is greater than Him, that is God.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. If you are limited, how you can manufacture process... (break) ... is bogus.
Karandhara: They don't say... They say they haven't manufactured it. They've just discovered it.
Prabhupāda: No, if you are limited, how can you discover the unlimited? Then what is the meaning of limited? You cannot discover...
Devotee (2): But if I am limited jīva, I can discover Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, you do not discover.
Yaśomatīnandana: It's there in...
Prabhupāda: But you know from higher authority. You cannot discover it.
Devotee (2): That's right. (break) Also... (break) ...does it not?
Prabhupāda: This is conservation.
Prajāpati: There's a group called Christian Scientists. They say God is not a person. He's simply a principle, a principle of truth, beauty, all these, just qualities.
Prabhupāda: But show the example, what is that principle?
Karandhara: What is the meaning of principle without person?
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of principle? Show me. You are talking nonsense.
Prajāpati: They say He's a principle is...
Prabhupāda: As soon as you call "principle," there must be a person. There must be a person. Otherwise, there is no principle.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.
Karandhara: They say you can't separate...
Prabhupāda: No, that... Without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying so many. Rascals, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that will be this perfect platform, but there's nothing like something perfect. They will explain that...
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach? But you have no goal. You do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly?
Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don't want to give this body up.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it.
Prabhupāda: One who knows, he can say. One who does not know, he'll argue, "Why not this side? Why you are so bigot that the sun is coming from this side? It may come this side also." This is all nonsense. Upadek... upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā recommends, tad-vijñānārtham... Now. What is that? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You must go to a person surrendering, not with your naughty behavior, "Why this? Why that?" First thing is surrender. You must approach a person... Surrender. The first thing is praṇipātena. Then you question. Unless you have surrendered, you have no right to question. What is the meaning of such question? Simply waste of time. If you surrender to a person, and whatever answer you get from him, you'll accept, that is called surrender. So find out such person first of all, that you can surrender there and you'll accept whatever he says. That is guru. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. First thing is praṇipāta, surrender. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender." These rascals are puffed up with false knowledge. Therefore their first business is to surrender. "Rascal, you surrender." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Without surrendering, he remains a fool because he's puffed-up with false knowledge. Just like the so-called scientists, the philosophers, they think, "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" But they do not know that they are in the fool's paradise. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). If you have surrendered, then you can ask some question. And sevayā. That paripraśna should not be challenge. By sevā, by service. This is our process. We must find out guru, we must satisfy him by service and surrender unto him. Then guru will explain. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. He knows everything. He'll explain. This is our program.
Prajāpati: They're giving prize to the number one speculator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Jugglery of words. That's all. Speculation means jugglery of words. Just like doctors prescribe. They give the medicine, and then water mixed. So they will never say "water" because ordinary people will understand. They'll write "aqua distillata." So ordinary man cannot understand whether it is water or medicine. But that is water. But they'll... So these scientists, they'll manufacture some word which you cannot understand... "Vyāghra mane śārdūla." One student asked the teacher, "What is the meaning of 'vyāghra' ?" He said, "Śārdūla." It is still difficult. You see ? This is going on.
Prajāpati: Most theologians, they write like that, also, Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their business. Because they want to cheat people, they'll manufacture some words which they cannot understand, and they'll be: "Oh, very nice. How nice word it is."
Prabhupāda: No, no, every common man he says "I got my mathematics." Will he be accepted?
Hṛdayānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: So why these things should be allowed? That is our proposition. Every man will say, "No, I've got my own mathematics." Will he be allowed? So we have to fight, otherwise what is the meaning of preaching?
Hṛdayānanda: Fight.
Prabhupāda: If you think that everything will be accepted very easily, then what is the necessity of preaching?
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya!
Prabhupāda: And propaganda.
Hṛdayānanda: You have to fight.
Prabhupāda: You must know that they are all rascals. That I said, rascals, unbelievers. You have to convert them to be sane man. That is preaching.
Prabhupāda: Why these politician says, "In God we believe, we trust"? Why this nonsense?
Umāpati: They fear theocracy. They fear being ruled by a priestly class. That is a very old fear in the west.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But if the politicians, administration, trust in God, that becomes religious. How they separate? Currency note is economic problem. So how they are mixing with God? They are contradictory. You cannot separate God from any field of activities. And religion, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Our definition of religion is to abide by the order of God. So does it mean, the politicians they do not abide by the orders of God? Then why do they write, "In god we trust"?
Karandhara: Well before, traditionally...
Prabhupāda: Not before or now. What we are speaking on the actual fact, that how they are writing, "In God we trust." As soon as you bring in God, that is religion. That is general meaning.
Prabhupāda: If God has cause, then he is not God. That is the difference between God and everything. Everything has got cause, but God has not cause. Therefore he is God. That, the rascal, he does not know. He equalizes God and everything on the same level. Then what is the meaning of God? If He hasn't got the extraordinary qualification, then how he is God? He is everything. He does not know. Why there is distinction between God and everything? Because God is not caused by everything, but everything is caused by God. That is the difference. (break) ...is equal to God, then everything is God. That is going on, Māyāvāda philosophy.
Candanācārya: ...there must have been very many gurus. Were there many gurus then?
Prabhupāda: When? Guru or... First of all, try to understand what is the meaning of guru. Guru means heavy. So one who knows more than you, or one who knows perfectly, that, he is guru. So if you know anything perfectly, then you are guru. But if you do not know anything perfectly, then you are not a guru. You are rascal. So guru means one who knows perfectly. So if you find out somebody, that he knows everything perfectly, then he is guru. That is the first prayer of Gurvaṣṭaka. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam **. Everyone is in the blazing fire of this material existence. It is just like forest fire. Just like if there is fire in the forest, all the inhabitants of forest, all the animals, they become so much in perturbed condition. So guru means to rescue from this forest fire. So therefore it is said, ghanāghanatvam. A forest fire can be reduced or can be extinguished... Fire, there must be water. But wherefrom the water will come? Your fire brigade, bucket full of water, will not save. The water must come from cloud. So therefore guru is the cloud. He has taken the mercy from the ocean, or from God, and he pours the mercy. Immediately the fire is extinguished, and you are saved. This is the saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya...
Prajāpati: If we were there and we could make one speech in front of that assembled Congress and Senate, the main government of the United States, what were the main points we would stress?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight. Then there will be peace in the world. The class of men who do not believe in God, they should be punished, because they are creating all the troubles. A man who trusts in God, he is the ideal man. He will never create any trouble. Therefore this science should be learned very scientifically. And we are prepared. And you also must be able to teach them. Then it will be successful." (Aside:) You leave little aloof. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. "Anyone who does not know what is God and does not know how to trust in God, he is animal. So how you can expect a human civilization composed of some animals? That you have to learn from us. If you are serious. If you simply make it a slogan, but you remain same as the man who does not know what is God, then what is the meaning of this slogan? That will not help you." Just like sometimes they put the signboard, "Goodman and Company," businessmen. The signboard is "Goodman," but he is cheating simply, from business point of view. That kind of signboard will not help you. If you actually believe in God, then try to understand what is God. Otherwise how you can believe? If you do not know the person in whom you have to trust, how you can trust Him? Is it clear or not? I say, "Trust in Him," but if I do not know that man, how I can trust? You must explain that "This man is in this way trustworthy." Otherwise what is the meaning of my trust? This science should be understood, what is God and what is trust. That you discuss thoroughly, threadbare. Otherwise how you will be able to preach? Ask all questions. I will answer. But you must be thoroughly conversant that there is need of God and everyone must trust in God. This is the standard of civilization. God is there. Without God, there cannot be anything existing. This is first point. And we must trust in God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, born. The child is created. There was no child.
Karandhara: But the energy which makes up this body was always present.
Prabhupāda: That we also say, by the formation, when it takes place, it is created. Just like you prepare food. Why do you say, "prepare"? What is the meaning of "prepare"? The ingredients are there, but why do you say, "prepare food"? You cannot say... Huh? What is that?
Hṛdayānanda: Before you prepare it, that particular preparation...
Prabhupāda: That we say. The energy was...
Karandhara: That is just a conventional term in relationship to you. That is just relative to you, relative to your relationship with that food.
Prabhupāda: This is called impersonalism...
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bahulāśva: Sense perception?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Mental speculation. When it is dry... So dryness also, sometimes it is, "Oh, it is very dry, bad." And again, say dry, we shall say, "Oh, today is very good." It is simply mental speculation.
Devotee: It is like wet stool and dry stool. It is still stool.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. (Chuckles) Yes, that is the example. The dry part of the stool, they say, "Oh, this part is very nice." He forgets that, after all, it is stool. So what is the dry or moist? Just like they are making scientific advancement. But the death is there. So what is the use of your advancement or no advancement? One who has not advanced in science, he'll also die. And you'll also die, advanced. Then what is the good? You cannot protect yourself from death. Then what is the meaning of this "good"? "This is good. This is advancement, and this is not advancement."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the distinction, the good and bad...
Prabhupāda: That is your distinction. You have made such distinction.
Prabhupāda: Relativity, relativity, law of Relativity. What is, what is food for one is death for other, the same thing. So how you can say the food is good or bad? Is it not? "One man's food, another man's poison." So how you can distinguish this is food or poison? One man will say, "No, it is food." Another man will say, "It is poison." So how you'll distinguish? So this good and bad is simply mental speculation. Because it is in the material platform, there is nothing good. Everything is bad. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). In the name of "dharma," so many rascaldom is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. It is not dharma. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: (SB 1.1.2) "This cheating type of religious system is rejected from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." All so-called religions, they're simply cheating. Cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Everything is cheating. They say, "We are advancing." What you are advancing? The problem, birth-death, is there. So what is the meaning of your advancement? Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2).
Prajāpati: This is the only means, then, to get off that manorathena.
Prabhupāda: Manorathena, yes. Manorathena means if you remain on that platform, then you have to reject again. Just they are doing, the so-called scientists, philosophers. They are putting forward some theory, and after some time they reject it. So if you remain on the mental platform, then this business of accepting and rejecting will go on. You'll never come to a conclusion. Therefore one has to rise to the spiritual platform. That is nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That is eternal, everlasting.
Jayapatākā: Ācchā, the way back we passed. Do you want to go back yet or around to the end?
Prabhupāda: Eh? (break) ...In every life, there is āvaraṇātmikā-śakti. He'll think that "I am very well situated." Even in the hog's life. That is māyā. Similarly, even if you are thinking, "Now we have got human body. We are well situated than the hog," that is also mistake. That is also mistake. "I am European, American, I have got so comfortable." Everything is wrong. Because you have to transmigrate. You do not know what is the next life. So what is the meaning of this well-situated. That is the mistake. That is māyā. You are not sure that you'll continue this life. You'll have to die. You have to accept. So this is māyā. Somebody well-situated, he's thinking, "Oh, I haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am well situated. I am European and American."
Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... (break)
Prabhupāda: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That, in your western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. (break) ...human being. You see. What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... (break) We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy.
Guest (3): With a clean slate of his mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam.
Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission.
Prabhupāda: Submission. Because...
Dr. Patel: And inquiry also.
Prabhupāda: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated
Prabhupāda: Yes. But the westerners are not that. (break) ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many western men.
Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...,
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): (Sanskrit) Sadṛśo māyā.
Prabhupāda: Sadṛśo mayā. Yes. "I'll protect my money in this way. I shall keep money in this way so that my sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons will enjoy. And I am going to become a cat and dog, doesn't matter. (everyone laughs) My grandson will enjoy." These are the plans. Where this rascal is going, he has no information. He has no information where he is going, but he is making provisions for his great-grandson. He does not know who is coming to be his great-grandson. This is asura program. You ask these asuras that "If you do not believe in the next life, then why you are working so hard?" They reply, "For the next generation." Next generation. And if you do not believe in the next life, what is the meaning of next generation? They say like that. This is the asuric civilization. (Sanskrit) So...
Indian man (2): Āsurīm...
Prabhupāda: Punar janmani. They'll never be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān mate. They'll never be able to understand. And remain in darkness, and transmigrate from one body to another, and this business will go on.
Indian man (2): So you must eat their meat if it is...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no... You should not eat.
Indian man (2): That is what he says...
Prabhupāda: That's... You see? He does not know what is the scheme of Vedas. You cannot stop meat-eating all of a sudden. But you can raise some restriction. These rascals who are meat-eaters, if you say, "Don't eat meat," he'll never do that. Therefore, "Yes, you can eat meat, just after offering to the goddess Kālī," and in this way, that means, once in the month, that means restricted. Restricted. So, Vedas means they're taking gradually, not that, like a foolish, "You don't do this." You cannot do that. That is Vedic authority. The Vedas are meant for everyone. Those who are meat-eaters, you cannot stop them all of a sudden. Similarly, drunkards. You cannot stop them, drunkards, "Don't drink." They'll not hear you. Therefore restriction. "Yes, you can drink, after offering to the devī," and that means restriction. So what is the meaning of marriage? Because sex like the cats and dogs, stop it. Just get married. In this way, otherwise, you may say "No marriage." Just like, the other day these sannyāsīs come, because saw woman was sitting, they'll not enter. But I saw their teeth was so unclean, and the dress was never washed. But they have got this restriction, no seeing of woman.
Satsvarūpa: Their reaction is: "Simply because it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā does not mean it actually happened." They don't think it happened just because it is written here.
Prabhupāda: No, no, happened or not happened. But you have no estimation, even one universe. You cannot say like that because you are a fool still. Even though it did not happen in the body of Kṛṣṇa, but you have no estimation, you cannot know what is the sun-god or sun planet or moon planet. You cannot go there. So what is the value of your knowledge? If the statement of Bhagavad-gītā has no meaning, then what is the meaning of your scientific knowledge? You are not perfect. So how you can say? Because you are imperfect, so you cannot say against Bhagavad-gītā, which is accepted by all the ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... Don't be in hurry. Just finish one word. That is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. (break) ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa. (break) Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, saṁskāra before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nāma-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇas. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "Everyone is śūdra." (break) ...no education. Still, one is called paṇḍitji. What is the meaning of this "paṇḍitji?" If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇḍitji? (laughing) (break) That paṇḍiya is also another form of paṇḍita.
Indian man (4): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. From paṇḍiya, paṇḍiya. From paṇḍitya, from paṇḍitya, it comes paṇḍiya.
Prabhupāda: That is by intelligence. We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by... Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, "After all, it is child." Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul. Yes. The evolution of different types of body means evolution of intelligence. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, the flower is there. But the fragrance or the beauty has not yet developed. So unless the things are there, how it can develop? Similarly, the soul is there in every living entity, but according to the development of the body, evolution of the body, the intelligence becomes manifest. Otherwise, what is the meaning of education? Education means to develop the intelligence. That is education.
Prabhupāda: No. You, your charge is that they have forgotten God. They will answer that "We have not forgotten God. We are going to church, we are going to our mosque. Why we have forgotten God?"
Pañcadraviḍa: Because they are not serving Him... (break) ...relationship. They are not actively serving Him. They are engaging themselves... We see practically that some people say they are theists...
Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of service?
Pañcadraviḍa: Service means a relationship of serving out of love. So people are simply serving their stomach or...
Prabhupāda: "So if I haven't got love, then why I am coming to church?"
Satsvarūpa: Well, we're educating them what is God. They go to church, but they don't know. "What is your idea of God?" We ask them.
Prabhupāda: "Whatever it may be, when I offer my prayers, I remember there is some God. I may not have clear idea. I have got my own conception of God." So what is the answer?
Satsvarūpa: Well, there are symptoms if you... We don't discourage, as Pañcadraviḍa Mahārāja says, but if you are following God, the best religion is that which develops love of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is answered. "If I haven't got love for God, then why I am coming to church?"
Pañcadraviḍa: If you have love for God, why you are coming to church?
Prabhupāda: No. "Because I have got love for God, therefore I am coming to church. At that time I could have earned some money."
Prabhupāda: ...get help from them by his bogus program.
Mahāṁśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Vishva Hindu Parishad. What is this nonsense Vishva Hindu...? (chuckles) He does not know what is the meaning of Hindu. And his jñāna-yajña. Gītā jñāna yajña. He does not understand even a word of Gītā, and this rascal is preaching Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. And he has made some name, people after him. People means if you flatter him, that "Whatever you are doing, it is all right."
Prabhupāda: Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. We are not all these false things. Doctor Ghosh is also after daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. (break) We will collect medicine. Our... We shall pay for the expenditure. Our men will be engaged for bandaging. (laughs) Nonsense.
Bhāgavata: And the preaching stops.
Prabhupāda: Ah. They cannot understand what is the meaning of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are such dull headed men. They have no brain to understand. They are coming down again. Just like the dog's tail. Know, dog's tail. You may, however grease it... (laughs) They are hearing about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The aim is the body, the dog's tail. They are hearing daily about Kṛṣṇa na..., but they cannot understand. It is very difficult. These karmīs... Now they say... Because we are reading this Bhāgavatam, now gradually they dispersed. Gradually they dispersed. They are not interested. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And if you talk politics and all nonsense, oh, they will gather.
Yogeśvara: So many social reformers will agree with you...
Prabhupāda: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on. Where is the human being?
Dhanañjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?
Dhanañjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.
Prabhupāda: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.
Prabhupāda: Only varieties of sense enjoyment is offered because he want, want, wants. Actually, that is not enjoyment. That is bound up. Nature's... If you enjoy more sex life, nature says, "All right, you become impotent for ten years." And still he wants to enjoy. Little this way, that way—immediately punishment. "Oh, you have eaten more, three days suffer. No diet, no food. Suffer dysentery." And they are enjoying. What is this enjoyment? As soon as violate a little of the nature's law you are immediately punished. Na te viduḥ. Īśa-tantryāṁ baddhāḥ. Īśa-tantryām, the laws of nature, they are so much bound up, hands and legs. Still, they are declaring freedom. What is the freedom? Immediately he will be kicked by shoes as soon as he violates a little, immediately. There is ocean of salt. Now we require salt for making our foodstuff very tasty. But if you take little more salt, you cannot eat. No, you cannot eat. If you think, "Oh, so much salt? Let me put more salt, more salt," it will be useless. You can take only so much quantity. That's all. In this way you are bound up, always. And still, you are declaring freedom. What freedom? What is the meaning of this freedom? But they are fools. They cannot understand.
Haihaya: Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right quantity of salt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is giving you everything in right way so that you can save your time, you do not waste your time, and you can advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. We don't say that you stop eating. You eat. Take little Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't say that "Don't sleep." No, you sleep, but must rise early in the morning for maṅgala-ārati. This is our philo... Eating, sleeping, and sex. No, we don't say no sex life. Yes, you have sex life. Get your bona fide wife, live peacefully. And defense also, we have. We never say that you forego all these things. No, this is not our philosophy. But similarly, as much as you absolutely require, not more than that. The balance time, save for advancement. These people are simply engaged for eating, sleeping, mating. They have no time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This condemned civilization must be stopped. Killing, killing civilization. The human being got the opportunity of getting out of this punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly, and they are not being given the chance. They are being engaged more and more for sense gratification, viṣaya. Killing civilization. Jñāna-tapasā. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. By this process, bahavaḥ, many, by knowledge and tapasya. Pūtāḥ, purified, came back, back to home. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ, bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mām... (BG 4.10).
Guru-gaurāṅga: You caught him in the end, though, when you said, "If Kṛṣṇa is man, then this is no value." And then he said, "How do you know Kṛṣṇa really spoke this? How do you know this is really Kṛṣṇa?" So actually, he just did not accept Kṛṣṇa from the beginning.
Prabhupāda: No. He thinks that "Kṛṣṇa is a bigger philosopher, that's all. And I am also philosopher. So He has got His opinion, I have got my opinion. That's all." They think that. That is described, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ: (BG 9.11) "These rascals thinks Me as one of him, one like him." Mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Therefore Dr. Radhakrishnan and other rascals like him, they think, "Why Kṛṣṇa shall say, 'Surrender unto Me?' This is sophistry." What is the meaning of sophistry?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Sophist is half-wise and half-foolish.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He thinks that "I am as good philosopher as Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? I have got my own opinion." He thinks like that. And that rascal is writing commentary on Bhagavad-gītā. And it is selling also. Therefore we presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, not a rascal ism.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?
Robert Gouiran: Well, normal meaning.
Prabhupāda: No meaning?
Guru-gaurāṅga: The normal meaning.
Robert Gouiran: Normal meaning of the word...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Robert Gouiran: Usual meaning of the word.
Prabhupāda: Yes, What is the usual meaning of the word? First of all you say that...
Robert Gouiran: Renunciation is to get freedom.
Prabhupāda: Renounce means, renounce means, renounce means to give up. This is the ordinary meaning.
Prabhupāda: Just find out. So what is the meaning of giving up? Why you should give up? You are occupying some business... Suppose you are working as a scientist. So why should you give it up?
Robert Gouiran: Why?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is a...
Robert Gouiran: Because it's...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?
Yogeśvara: (Reading from dictionary) It says, "The giving up of things, self-denial."
Prabhupāda: That's right. So renunciation means giving up. So suppose you are working as a scientist. You give up. Then what do you gain by that giving up?
Robert Gouiran: Because...
Prabhupāda: First of all, why should you give up?
Robert Gouiran: To get... To get, to get free...
Prabhupāda: "To get." The word is "to get."
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is the meaning. You renounce to get something else. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this renunciation.
Robert Gouiran: Just in order to get rid of the barriers which blocks the access of the spiritual plane.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotion. To work on the spiritual plane means devotion, devotional service. That is spiritual. Otherwise what is the meaning of renunciation? Suppose you are working as scientist. You renounce. What do you gain? Unless you gain something better, then there is meaning of renouncing.
Robert Gouiran: I was taught... Well, if you are speaking about...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it has no meaning.
Prabhupāda: No need. Then when the brahmacārī is allowed to become gṛhastha, he can keep more than one wife if he's able to provide them nicely. Here they marry today and tomorrow divorce. The... No meaning of marriage. Simply prostitution. Because he does not need a wife. His sex life is satisfied in so many ways. So why he should be affected, attached to wife? And why the wife should be attached to the husband? Therefore divorce. It is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Dam-patye ratim eva hi. In the Kali-yuga, married life means sex life. For sex satisfaction, they'll marry. Otherwise, there is no need of marrying. That is... Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage means that they, both of them agree that "We shall live together for some time." These things are happening, already foretold. By agreement, "Yes, we shall live together." That is marriage. "And then I may divorce." Actually, they do not know what is the meaning of marriage. All dependent on sex. Rati. Rati means... Dam-patye ratim eva hi. Vipratve sūtram eva hi: "To become brāhmaṇa means just have a thread only."
Priest: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatāra?
Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatāra. We have got documents who is avatāra.
Priest: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is... Kṛṣṇa is avatārī. He is the origin. That is stated here, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You know Sanskrit? What is the meaning of ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ? "I am the source of all avatāra."
Priest: Yeah, but who has written that?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Priest: Who has written that? Śrīla Vyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere he has written. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has written. Kṛṣṇa has spoken, Vyāsadeva has written, and it is accepted.
Priest: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it (inaudible).
Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress.
Prabhupāda: So we have to abide by their sentiment? Because they are rascals, we have to become rascal? Even if you take so-called responsibility, you will not be allowed to carry it out. The example I was giving., Napoleon, Hitler, and Gandhi, they took responsibility but they were driven away. What can you do? So what is the meaning of your responsibility? You will not be allowed to execute your responsibility. What remedy you have done that you will not be allowed, kicked out? Then what is your responsibility? Even if you are very nice gentleman, you have taken responsibility, but nature will not allow you to execute the responsibility. What is your answer to that? Big, big Napoleon, big, big Hitler, big, big Gandhi came and gone. Where is the responsibility executor? The Napoleon was given horse urine, you know, by the Britishers.
Prabhupāda: Where there is evolution, there must be degradation. Otherwise, what is the meaning of evolution? Why it should be stagnant? If you go, ascend, then you can descend also. Now, the Mr. Nixon was elected president, and why he's being dragged, "Come down." He is not coming down, but he has already come down, degradation. Nobody likes him.
Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? (French)
Yogeśvara: So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti: "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not.
Prabhupāda: That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti: "It is not" defining. (French)
Yogeśvara: You better translate that one.
Pṛthu Putra: He says that the answer of that is very often come, although it doesn't have to come with a name of God because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people.
Prabhupāda: No Anu-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose.
Prabhupāda: No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says he choose Radhakrishnan, he choose all the seigneur...
Prabhupāda: But they, all of them...
Pṛthu Putra: He reject Aurobindo...
Prabhupāda: I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? (French) Now this Ramakrishna said, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly?
Prabhupāda: Hm? By association. If you mix with the drunkards, you'll learn how to drink. And if you mix with the devotees, similarly, you can become cleansed. By the association. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. One's desires develop according to the association.
Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā, you state that sometimes they begin to take on these demonic qualities within the womb. These demonic qualities are inherited from the past life. So if we begin Kṛṣṇa conscious education very young, it's possible to stop these demonic qualities from developing?
Prabhupāda: No. His demonic qualities will be purified. Otherwise, what is the use of preaching? If the qualities cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Prabhupāda: Yes, as early as possible. From the very womb, you begin education. Let the mother hear about Kṛṣṇa. He'll be purified from the womb. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja became. He was born by a demon father. But his quality changed when his mother was instructed by Nārada Muni, everything was changed. If the demons cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, sometimes they argue that Kṛṣṇa knows past, present and future. We are preaching that we have minute independence. We are preaching that Kṛṣṇa has given us minute independence to desire. So if Kṛṣṇa knows past, present and future, then where is the question of our independence? In other words, He knows already what we're going to desire?
Prabhupāda: Past, present and future? Therefore there should be no independence? Is that a very good argument?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is their argument.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he has got beads? or what...?
Madhudviṣa: No, those are mittens. (baby cries)
Prabhupāda: That's all right, that's all right. (break)
Madhudviṣa: ...to understand a mode. Is a mode a personality?
Prabhupāda: Mode? What is the meaning of mode?
Madhudviṣa: Mode. I do not know what a mode is.
Prabhupāda: Mode means a...
Madhudviṣa: Influence?
Prabhupāda: ...situation.
Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is not limited within Christian or communist or capitalist.
Reverend Powell: No.
Prabhupāda: No. The principle... Wherever there are these talented persons, he is to be considered as first class man. He does not say that "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christians..." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa, these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest. Because I am making them brāhmaṇa. My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brāhmaṇa. So the Indians, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion, because he's accepting brāhmaṇa from outside." So actually they're also not aware... Creation of God... Here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia. It is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brāhmaṇa. That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill." This is applicable to every man. Not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community?
Reverend Powell: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Rāmeśvara: They think just by chanting, they will go back to the spiritual world. That is enough.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of the ten kinds of offenses? If he is chanting without offense, then it is all right, but if he is committing offenses, it will not be effective. There are ten kinds of offenses. Whether he is strictly offenseless? Then it is all right. If he is offender, then it will not be fruitful. It will be fruitful; it will take long time because first of all you have to become offenseless. Then you will be admitted. (aside:) Don't come very near. That's it. So they are committing offenses, so how they can become perfect? He is committing not following the rules and regulation. That means he is thinking that "Whatever I do, it will be adjusted by chanting the name." Is it not?
Guru-kṛpa: Yes. That's one of the offenses.
Rāmeśvara: That is their philosophy.
Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy. That is the greatest offense, nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ, that "I can go on committing sinful activity, but by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, it will be adjusted." That is the greatest offense. So explain to them.
Prabhupāda: First of all we have to accept this truth, that perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect person. Just like I have given the example, who is my father. You can understand it from the perfect person, mother. If somebody speculates, "This gentleman may be your father, this gentleman may be your father," that is not perfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is with the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father." That is perfect knowledge. Just like, therefore, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
- tad viddhi praṇipātena
(aside:) Find out
- paripraśnena sevayā
- upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
- jñāninaḥ tattva-darśinaḥ
- (BG 4.34)
Now, what is the meaning of tattva-darśinaḥ?
Hṛdayānanda: "The seers of the truth."
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to... Just like mother has seen the father. So her knowledge is perfect. But I have not seen my father. Because before my birth there was father, I do not know who is my father. The mother has seen the father. So you have to approach such a person who has seen the truth. That is the way of... Now you have to find out a person who has seen the transcendence and receive knowledge of transcendence from him. Then it is perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying why do you say a perfect person instead of saying a perfect philosophy?
Prabhupāda: No, unless the philosophy is given by a perfect person how the philosophy can be perfect? Philosophy means searching after the truth. So if he does not know how to find out the truth, what is the meaning of his philosophy? I was a student of philosophy. My professor was Dr. Urquhart. He used to say that "Philosophy is the science of science." So unless he is a perfect scientist, how he can give science?
Professor: I have other question. Why do we want to transcend?
Prabhupāda: I am not wanting. I am simply distributing the transcendental knowledge.
Prabhupāda: It is very easy. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): How do we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: That you are seeing. I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma... They all are chanting.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): What is the meaning of this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Hare means, "O the energy of God," and Kṛṣṇa, "O God, kindly accept me again. I am fallen in this material world." That's all.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She says that she sees it as a mantra, and from her point of view it seems like we're repeating this mantra over and over again, and it's something like hypnotism. For example, in some tribes there are different rituals. They are chanting different things, and she would like...
Prabhupāda: That is her opinion. She is not authority.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (Indian guests leave and devotees offer obeisances.) I talk with the professor of religion sometimes, "What is the meaning of religion?"
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is that college you are employed?
Professor Fenton: Emory University. Its about three miles from here.
Prabhupāda: So, what definition you give to religion?
Professor Fenton: It has to do with saving, something that binds societies together, it has to do with the supernatural of (indistinct) God. And hm... Sometimes...
Prabhupāda: That there is relationship with God. Is it not? Religion has got relationship with God.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Allah akbar?
Yoga student: It means God, the greatest.
Prabhupāda: Greatest.
Yoga student: Yes. Akbar is being the superlative of kabirsh(?).
Prabhupāda: And Muhammad is the greatest? No. He is subordinate.
Yoga student: No. And in fact Muslims object to their religion being called Mohammedanism because it implies that they worship Muhammad, whereas in fact they feel that they go straight to God, to Allah, which... and that Muhammad simply was a messenger.
Prabhupāda: That's good.
Yoga student: "...separation from God." So that he used the form of expression of worship, the expression...
Prabhupāda: Separation, how it is possible? Separation is expressed when there is separation between man to man or man to woman, person. Otherwise what is the meaning of separation?
Yoga student: Separation from one's divine...
Prabhupāda: Divine? This means must be person. They do not believe in the Personality of Godhead?
Yoga student: They believe... The Sufis see the personality of Ali...
Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking of the Sufis. I am talking of the original Islam.
Yoga student: Well, the Sufis claim to be the original Muslims.
Prabhupāda: Do the all the Muslims accept them? Then?
Parivrājakācārya: There are about 780 different schools of Islam and different ideas.
Prabhupāda: Then? We have to take the original. Otherwise misled.
Prabhupāda: No, if is the original, why they named differently?
Yoga student: Because there are those who have fallen away from it, and they are the ones who use this name. The Sufis don't use the name about themselves. It's used by others who wish to...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Sufism? Literary meaning?
Yoga student: Well, Sufism in a sense is what bhaktism is in the Hindu context.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means to offer service to the Lord. Does it mean?
Yoga student: Absolutely.
Prabhupāda: So then if the Lord is to be served, then He must be a person; otherwise where is the question of service?
Yoga student: Well, the Sufis do see that, the personal aspect of the Lord...
Prabhupāda: No, if you have realized God, you must know what is His form. You must explain.
Ānanda-mārga woman: The energy of light does take the form of everything which exists. It is the creator of worlds.
Prabhupāda: But He has a form.
Ānanda-mārga woman: He has all the forms. And the purest form, the most beautiful form, has shown itself to me inside of me. It's the light and it's the music and it's the water. I cannot name it Kṛṣṇa because I do not believe in names.
Prabhupāda: Do you know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa?
Ānanda-mārga woman: I believe Kṛṣṇa was one form of God. You said something about extension of Kṛṣṇa. It's the same.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means "the all-attractive." As you say that God is so beautiful, so that is, in other words, all-attractive. So if you have realized God, then you have become perfect.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if you do not believe in that person, how do you understand his philosophy?
Dr. Movebhed: That's where... I think I may be wrong. Please correct me if I go wrong. That's where people have taken little, two to three steps, as my friend has told, first advaita. She wanted to have two...
Prabhupāda: No, no, why advaita, dvaita? First of all you take the preliminary things, that you are accepting the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, but you have no knowledge of the person who has spoken Bhagavad-gītā. Then where is your understanding? You do not understand the person who has spoken the Bhagavad-gītā. Then what is the meaning of your understanding Bhagavad-gītā?
Indian man: No, we have to try...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Try, try, another thing.
Indian man: We have to understand it.
Prabhupāda: No, you have to understand it... First of all you have to understand Kṛṣṇa, the person who is speaking.
Guest: And ah, he was the perfect expression of the divine manifestation in human terms. He was not a divine figure as Christ or Kṛṣṇa. He was a, ah, simply a man, and ah, he was the mouthpiece of the ah, divine word.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Allah?
Guest: It means God, the greatest.
Prabhupāda: Greatest.
Guest: Yes, God as being the superlative of (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Eh? Mohammed is the greatest? No, he's subordinate?
Guest: No. In fact, Muslims object to their religion being called Mohammedanism because it implies that they worship Mohammed. Whereas in fact they feel that they go straight to God, to Allah, which Mohammed is simply a messenger.
Prabhupāda: That's good.
Prabhupāda: The dark night?
Guest: The dark night of ignorance...
Prabhupāda: Oh, darkness.
Guest: ...of separation from God. So that they use the form of expression, worship...
Prabhupāda: Separation, how it is possible? Separation is expressed when there is separation between man to man, man to woman. First, otherwise what is the meaning of separation?
Guest: Separation from his divine...
Prabhupāda: Yes, then it must be person. They do not believe in the Personality of Godhead?
Guest: They believe, the Sufis, see the personality of Ali.
Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking of the Sufis, I am talking of the original Islam.
Guest: The Sufis claim to be the original process.
Prabhupāda: Do they, all the Muslims accept them?
Devotee 2: There are about 780 different schools of Islam, different ideas they have.
Prabhupāda: You have to take the original, otherwise mislead.
Prabhupāda: Before Mohammed?
Guest: No, springing from Mohammed.
Prabhupāda: Then how you can say it is original.
Guest: Yes, it is original. All the schools of law they develop...
Prabhupāda: If it is original, why it is named different?
Guest: Because there are those that have fallen away from it and they are the ones who use this name. The Sufis don't use this name for themselves, it's used by others who wish to condemn them.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Sufism, literal meaning?
Guest: Well, Sufism in a sense is ah, what bhaktism is in the Hindu context.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means to offer service to God. Does it mean?
Guest: Oh, absolutely!
Prabhupāda: Then if God is to be served, then He must be a person, otherwise where is the question of serving?
Guest: Well, the Sufis do see that, the personal aspect of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: And catalogue? Where is? This is BBT?
Gargamuni: Yes. This tells about your books.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. You can question; I will understand. (break) They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself. He does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind. So what will be the result? They are bound up... Suppose if I tightly wrap your eyes, and all of them are done so, then how you will lead them?
Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers?
Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it.
Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that you are not this body. You are something beyond this body.
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: She says we do not require as much as we like to believe we do. We do not require the things that we believe we require.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of this?
Haṁsadūta: (German)
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: It means, it means apartment, furniture, money, family, and so many things. She says... She means that we don't require all these things.
Prabhupāda: I don't say that. I have never said that.
Prajāpati: They make that point. "Therefore," they say, "such talk about God is impractical. So therefore we don't bother talking about God."
Prabhupāda: "Then why you put theology?" That is our point. "Then why you have put this theology?" "There's no use talking of God"—that is another thing. But when you make "logy," you must come to logic. "Logy" means discussion. Is it not? "Logy" means science?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of "logy"?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Knowledge
Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Find out this dictionary meaning.
Prajāpati: Logic is the rational ordering of thoughts in words.
Pañcadraviḍa: So the devotee went on, "To want to become one with the Lord, that is material desire." So the Māyāvādī, he answered, he said, "No, to want to remain separate from the Lord and enjoy rasa, or exchange, with Him, that is also material desire. Because you want to stay two, God and you, so you can be separate just so you can enjoy an exchange. That is also a desire."
Prabhupāda: Therefore, because you have no brain, therefore you cannot understand the rasas with Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual; that is not material. Ānanda-rasa. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). That is the Vedic statement. There is cinmaya. In the spiritual world there is ananda. You... You have no knowledge. You, due to your poor fund of knowledge, you think that in the spiritual world there is no rasa; it is simply void, negation of this rasa. Just like a diseased man. He is practiced to drink bitter medicine and pass stool on the bed and so many inconveniences, so if some of his friends says, "When you'll be cured, you'll be able to pass stool in the lavatory. You haven't got to, haven't got to pass stool..." Then he shudders: "Again I have to pass stool after becoming cured? Again I have to eat? No, no, this is not good. Make it zero." He has no idea what is the meaning of passing stool in healthy stage. It refreshes the body. We get good energy. That he cannot conceive. He thinks that "If there is passing of stool again, then it must be the same suffering as I am undergoing now in this condition." So the Māyāvādī's idea of spiritual life means negation of these material activities. But they have no idea that similar activities are there in spiritual life, but that is not material. That is their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore we are... You are not understanding Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtīv hlādinī-śaktir asmāt. That I am explaining for the last few days. That is not at all this material. So unless there is loving affair in the spiritual world, how here it is as perverted reflection? It is the reflection of the reality. The reality is there.
Prabhupāda: But how do you do? Just like dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Interpret in different way this word, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre? It cannot be interpreted. And how do you dare to say that "We can interpret word to word." In the beginning, you cannot do it.
Pañcadraviḍa: They clam, then, unless you speak Sanskrit, you have to interpret Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: No, that means if you are a nonsense, you better remain silent. Don't interpret. It is better not to talk than to talk nonsense. What is the meaning of that interpretation. If you do not know Sanskrit, stop speaking. Why do you make imagination?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, their claim is you have to read the Gītā in Sanskrit in order for it to be read as it is.
Prabhupāda: Now, now, in the very beginning it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Now interpret. What is your interpretation, dharma-kṣetre? What is your interpretation, kuru-kṣetre? Come on, in the beginning. They cannot interpret anything.
Prabhupāda: ...nānyat. Na anyat. So this is going on. And where is surrender? If you don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then what is the meaning of this surrender? This is going on. Our, one swamiji, is there in Bombay, Cinmayananda. He is a big speaker in Bhagavad-gītā, and he has constructed temple-Śiva-liṅga, the genital of Lord Śiva. Just see.
Mahāṁsa: He said he has translated... His interpretation of Kṛṣṇa is that this "Kṛṣṇa means black. Black is ignorance. So Kṛṣṇa is ignorance."
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Governor: We have right example of Vālmīki.
Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard śāstra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the śāstra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation.
Prabhupāda: You have no love, because you are accustomed to kill. Philosophy begins when you know that everyone is part and parcel of God, and everyone should be given the full facilities to live without injuring anyone for one's personal benefit. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). A paṇḍita, philosopher, means learned scholar. Not fools and rascals can become philosopher. Those who are learned scholar, thoughtful, they can become philosopher. But if one has no knowledge how to behave with other living entities, what is the meaning of becoming a philosopher?
Carol: How would you go about teaching this idea of love?
Prabhupāda: Love means that I want to eat something, and if I love somebody, then I will see that my beloved also eats. If you take something from your beloved, naturally the lovers present things. Just a boy loves a girl. He presents something to the girl. So, if you accept presentation by others, we should give him also something. And, if I have got some confidential thing, I must disclose it to the lover, and the lover is also expected, he should not keep anything confidential. He should disclose it. These are the six reciprocal exchanges between the lover and the beloved. If I love you, because you are beautiful, for my sense gratification, but I keep everything secret, that is not love. That is sense gratification. Lust. These are the signs of love.
Prabhupāda: The human life is meant for acquiring knowledge, real knowledge.
Justin Murphy: But so many people don't see it that way.
Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; there are second-class men; there are third-class men; there are fourth-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment.
It will be chaotic society. That is the present position, that there is no first-class men, there is no second-class men. There may be some third-class men, and all fourth-class men. This is the position. Therefore the whole human society is in chaotic condition. The first-class man should understand this. Therefore it is called dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). What is the meaning of dhīra? Just see.
Paramahaṁsa: Sober.
Prabhupāda: Sober, gentle. He understands immediately.
Mother: What do you think about Hebrew religion?
Prabhupāda: Well, there cannot be Hebrew religion, Christian religion, Hindu... Religion is one. Religion means God's rules. So God is one. So if you are this or that, you can manufacture so many ways, but God's ruling is one, that "You surrender to Me." That's all.
Mother: So we all believe in the one God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one. God cannot be two. Then He is not God. There cannot be two Gods. God is one. Otherwise how..., what is the meaning of God?
Mother: That's right.
Prabhupāda: So, find out this, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7).
Paramahaṁsa:
- mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat
- kiñcid asti dhanañjaya
- mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ
- sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva
- (BG 7.7)
Translation: "O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."
Prabhupāda: God is the Supreme Truth. So Supreme Truth cannot be Hebrew truth, Christian truth, Hindu truth. Truth is truth. Just like gold. Because gold is found in America, nobody says, "It is American gold." It is gold. So similarly, God is one. He is for Hebrew, He is for Hindu, He is for Muslim, He is for everyone. Simply we have to know what is God. So if you try to understand through Hebrew religion, that's all right. But if you come to know what is God, that is all right. Otherwise useless. If you cannot understand what is God, then Hebrew, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, these different names, they are useless. And if you understand God, then whatever method it is, it is all good.
Sister: But you don't need to see the picture... With His omnipotence, you don't need to have the picture. Prabhupāda: No, because you, without seeing Him, you do not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You require to see Him. So He has appeared before you so that you can see Him. That is His mercy, so that you see Him and you think of Him. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. You see Him and think of Him. That is the meaning of picture. You cannot say, "I have not seen God." Here is God. You see God's picture here in the temple. In the śāstra description is there.
Prabhupāda: (break) How they will serve? The proposal...(break) that how... (break) ...they have disco... (break) They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping?
Amogha: By our technological inventions we can make a heater that makes the coldness...
Prabhupāda: But the heater is not curing the suffering.
Prabhupāda: God is great. He's great in every respect, in strength...
Jesuit: Is He a person?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless... A person... What is the meaning of great?
Jesuit: Well you can speak about a mountain being great and that's not God.
Prabhupāda: But God can swallow millions of mountains. That is God. Your conception is: mountain is very great. But our conception is: God is so great that He can swallow millions of mountains. So whose greatness is greater, the mountain's or God's?
Jesuit: Well it's a different order altogether, one's...
Prabhupāda: "God is great," means whatever greatness, just as sky is the great, there are millions of sky, that is God's...
Prabhupāda: Then why they have recommended this, unless there is some benefit?
Śrutakīrti: Well, that knowledge has been lost through the years. A few hundred years ago, many of the celibates were also vegetarian, but all that has changed.
Prabhupāda: That means they are gliding down towards hell, that's all. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement, spiritual advancement. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. This is Coca-cola, everywhere. (break) ... mukti, liberation, and the word salvation is the same? Then what is the meaning of salvation?
Devotee: Salvation means to be saved, liberation.
Prabhupāda: Then what do they mean by that liberation?
Madhudviṣa: Salvation means to be saved by Jesus. Saved by Jesus means to...
Prabhupāda: So what is the platform of that saving?
Madhudviṣa: To go to heaven, spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: There is idea of spiritual world?
Prabhupāda: These are different words. You can understand what is the meaning of śamaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the mind. So damaḥ means controlling the senses. If you first of all control the mind, then you can control the senses. Then śamo damaḥ sattvam.
Amogha: Tapaḥ śaucam.
Prabhupāda: Tapaḥ. Tapaḥ, tapasya, austerity. Austerity. Then you have to consult what is the austerity? The austerity is, beginning of austerity is the sex control. That is austerity, brahmacarya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). And that brahmacarya you can observe by following certain rules and regulations, Just like these people are following. In this way everything is there, clear. There is no interpretation. You cannot interpret the word water. Everyone knows what is water means. Where is the question of interpreting? Therefore sometimes reference to the teacher is necessary. Otherwise every word is clear. There is no question of interpretation. Now they are irrelevantly interpreting the first verse of Bhagavad-gītā. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). So they are interpreting Kurukṣetra means this body. And where is the chance of such interpretation? Kurukṣetra, the land, is still there. Just before coming here I went to Kurukṣetra. So why you should interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body"?
This is wrong interpretation. The law of interpretation is there when you cannot understand directly. Then you are allowed to interpret. Otherwise there is no necessity of interpretation. But they are unnecessarily interpret for their own purpose. That has become a fashion, to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in his own way. Where is the chance?
Australian devotee 2: They say that the value of their education is that very soon they will be able to overcome birth, death, disease, and old age, that they almost have the solution. They are freezing people's bodies... Prabhupāda: Therefore younger generation, they are not interested in education. They see that, after all, the life is vacant even after education.
Prabhupāda: Pictures? First of all you see. Then take picture. You cannot see.
Harikeśa: They use all these things to argue that they actually did go to the moon.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argument if they have stopped? That is failure. Don't talk nonsense anymore. Phalena paricīyate. By the result we have to understand. Your result is you are failure. Then what is the use of talking nonsense? Stop this nonsense.
Ambarīṣa: It's like five years ago they declared a war on cancer, and they spent billions and billions of dollars on it, and just the other day they now said that it was a complete failure, that the disease has just kept on growing and growing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot stop even cancer disease and you are controlling nature. Just see their (?) false, puffed up. They cannot control one disease, and they are going to control nature. We have to believe that.
Siddha-svarūpa: But they think that this is only one? They do accept that there's life after this life and that they will live either in heavenly planets...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise what is the meaning of going to God? They believe it.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is, the Bible says, "Come to kingdom of God"?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if you have no next life, how you are going to there?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. They accept another life.
Prabhupāda: Then that is... Another life means soul.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They have no clear knowledge. That is their...
Prabhupāda: Nobody respects. Nowadays, if somebody is religious, he is thought of as a fool. He's not...
Siddha-svarūpa: Actually, because what you're saying is right, people are going away from religion. There is no use for it anymore.
Prabhupāda: No religion. No, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Therefore they create some religious system. They create: "Let me create something. After all, it is bluffing. So if I can..." Just like this, from India there are so many come. Here also there are many. They create some. It is... After all, it is bluffing. "So let me create something." Real business is to bluff and take money.
Bali-mardana: They like to make a show.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Prabhupāda: So it is a civilization of dog race. The man does not know, "By riding on a car, racing, is there any value if I do not know what is the meaning of my life?" Hmm? So this is going on. Big, big road for dog racing—that is civilization. (break) The rascal yogis, they say that "By this transcendental meditation you will keep your dog race very nice." They are attracted, "Oh, very nice. It is very nice." That's all. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. All mū..., rascals. Only hope is that you distribute books, as much as possible, whole Europe, whole America. If they come to some day, they will realize what is this value. (break) ...day they will realize that what valuable books we have left for the study of the whole world. That will come. (break) ...London city there is a big hall for dog race, you know that? Many people are coming to see the dog race. You have been in London?
Brahmatīrtha: No, but I know that... Yeah, I was in London, but I didn't see the dog race, but they have that in America also.
Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam (SB 10.14.58). This is a place—in every step there is danger. We are walking in a very nice park. At any moment there may be revolution, whole thing is changed. Whole thing is, becomes fire. Just like, in India now it has become. So we should remember that here in this material world, padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam, every step there is danger. Give up this place. That is the real intelligence. And the education misleading them, māyā-sukhāya, making gorgeous plans for temporary happiness. That's all. If in the slaughterhouse the animals are kept very comfortably, so what is the meaning of it?
Brahmānanda: They'll still be slaughtered.
Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the meaning?
Satsvarūpa: No meaning.
Prabhupāda: It is sure that all the animals will be slaughtered, and if the arrangement is "All right, before being slaughtered, let them live very comfortably," is that very good intelligence? The intelligence is "Why we shall be slaughtered?" That is intelligence. What is the meaning of slaughterhouse? Who can explain?
Brahmānanda: Everyone dies there.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Dies there... A slaughterhouse, what is the meaning of this particular word?
Devotee (2): They're killed brutally.
Harikeśa: A specific place where all the animals are killed.
Yadubara: So if we're beaten by this material nature, then we'll go away.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. No, material nature's business is beating and kicking. That's his only business. But we are so fool, we are taking, "Oh, very nice kicking." That is the disease. We accept the kicking as very nice. That is foolishness. We are suffering always by three kinds of..., ādhyātmika, ādhibhautika, ādhidaivika disturbances. There is disturbance in the body, in the mind, disturbance by other living entities, so many, disturbed by climate, disturbed by famine. Always disturbance. Still, we are thinking, "It is very nice place." This is foolishness. Still, we are trying to improve it. That is foolishness. He does not think that "What is the meaning of improvement? The disturbing is always continuing." That does not come to his brain. They are making improvement. (break) ...improvement, they can say, "This is improvement." But how long this improvement will go? If there is no rainfall, what this improvement will help? So that is not in your hand. That is ādhidaivika. It depends on the demigods. If they want, they can stop completely, no rainfall. Then what this improvement will do?
Brahmānanda: There'll be no water for their machines.
Prabhupāda: And just see. That which is impossible, they are trying for that. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, that's all. When your senses are imperfect, then what you will see? Whatever you see, that is imperfect. So what is the meaning of seeing? Therefore our seeing is śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: "We should see through the authorized scriptures." That is our... You will see in the description of Śukadeva Gosvāmī of the whole universe, conclusion, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, "So far I have described as I have heard." He never says, "As I have seen." This is required. (break) ...that we believe in the creation. And others also, just like Christians, they also believe God created. But who has seen God is creating? Who has seen? Simply hear from God. He says, "I have created." That's all. But if you challenge, "I have not seen that You have created; neither I have seen You," then how can you believe? God says, "I have created," so those who are God believers, they will accept that. So what is the use of seeing again, observatory? We trust in God, but don't trust in His word. This is going on. You write in America, "We trust in God," but don't trust in His word. (laughs) Just see. If God you trust, then whatever God says, you believe. "No, that we cannot do." This is the (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one mosquito can produce many mosquitos.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there complete.
Brahmānanda: It doesn't crash either.
Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) And still, these rascals, believing their eyes. What is the meaning of your eyes? You see, study mosquito. Not only mosquito, you will find at night I see a small insect, less than the magnitude of full stop. (Makes insect sound:) "Gu, gu, gu, gu." The same machine is there. Now see what is the machine there if you have such eyes. What is their answer? "In future." Just see. In future they will be able. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you keep a stone a stone. That's all right. Wolf may be qualified with peacefulness, but after all, it is animal. You cannot say because it is peaceful for the time being, therefore it is not animal. It is animal.
Lt. Mozee: Wouldn't that sort of peace be a precursor to a return to religion? Must we not first have peace?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the difficulty. We do not know the meaning of religion. At the present moment the human society does not know what is the meaning of religion. The meaning of religion is to abide by the laws of God, just like a good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state, of the government. Because we have no understanding of God, therefore we do not know what is the laws of God, and therefore we do not know what is religion. That is the present status of the human society. They are forgetting religion. They take religion as a kind of faith. Faith may be blind faith. Faith is not the real description of religion. Religion means the laws which is given by God, and anyone who follows the laws, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or Muslim. If he follows the laws of God, then he is religious.
Prabhupāda: They are trying to dominate the material nature, the so-called scientists. But they do not know that they are under the domination of material nature. They are forgetting that. If you are more powerful, if you are dominating me, how I can dominate you? That they do not know, that we are under the domination of material nature. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). The domination is manifest by four things: birth, death, old age, and disease. I cannot dominate my birth, death, old age, and disease and I am trying to dominate over nature. Just foolishness. Big, big scientist, did he dominate over death, Professor Einstein? Did not he die? Why he could not find out any means that he will not die? What is the meaning of the science? If you are dominated by the laws of material nature, how you are thinking that you shall dominate over material nature? When death comes can you dominate? "No, no, I am scientist. Just wait." No, you must die immediately. So where is your domination? You are dominated by material nature. That is the mistake of the present society, that everyone is being dominated by the material nature and the so-called scientist is trying to dominate over material nature.
Woman reporter: They keep many people's brains to study.
Nitāi: Especially great scientists, that they want to see what has made this man so intelligent.
Woman reporter: That's not necessarily true.
Prabhupāda: Then why they study the brain? What is the purpose of studying brain unless there is difference? You study different brains. Unless you feel that there is difference between this brain and that brain, why do you study. What is the meaning of study?
Woman reporter: To find differences among men. It's not necessarily differences between men and woman.
Prabhupāda: I don't say man or woman. But I say you study different brains—why? Unless you think there is some difference?
Woman reporter: There is difference.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if there is difference, then what is the harm if there is difference between man and woman's brain?
Woman reporter: They say there isn't.
Prabhupāda: They say, but the fact we have to study. As soon as you study the construction of different brain, then you must know that there is difference, different activities.
Prabhupāda: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education.
Bahulāśva: Donate all these buildings to you.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value.
Mādhavānanda: Then they would say that we also must die. Everyone must die. Prabhupāda: Yes, we die—to live forever. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). We die for that. This is the last death.
Prabhupāda: Even if you take so-called responsibility, you will not be allowed to carry it out. The example I was giving: Napoleon, Hitler, and Gandhi. They took responsibility, but they were driven away. What can I do? So what is the meaning of your responsibility? You will not be allowed to execute your responsibility. What remedy you have done that you will not be allowed, kicked out? Then where is your responsibility? Even if you are very nice gentleman—you have taken responsibility—but nature will not allow you to execute the responsibility. What is your answer to that? Big, big Napoleon, big, big Hitler, big, big Gandhi came and gone. Where is the responsibility executed? The Napoleon was given horse urine. You know? By the Britishers.
Brahmānanda: To drink.
Prabhupāda: Yes. At the last stage when he was asking for water he was given horse urine. He died like that. Hitler committed suicide. Gandhi was killed. So where is their responsibility? They falsely thinking, "Without me, everything will be lost." But they are kicked out; everything is going on.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali-yuga. (break)
Brahmānanda: ...become ruined. The world is on the verge of ruination, but it doesn't become ruined; so therefore they think, "Oh, it doesn't matter. We can go on."
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is the meaning of ruination. (break) ...so many problems. Still it is not on the verge of ruination?
Brahmānanda: It's on the verge.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you are very much disturbed with so many problems?
Dhanañjaya : They always take the brighter side.
Prabhupāda: No. They are discussing, "There will be no more petrol. There will be no more this, no more that."
Indian man (2): They know only how to criticize for nothing.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the meaning of that criticize? First of all you come to the stage.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Enviousness.
Prabhupāda: Now, Bon Mahārāja, our Godbrother, went. What did he bring? He brought some HMD. HMD. You know HMD? You do not know?
Indian man (3): Hindustan Machine Tools.
Prabhupāda: That means you forget. You forget everything. Then how you will be liberated? Whatever little consciousness was there, that is finished. Then how you become liberated? Whatever you had, that is also finished. Eh? Then how you become liberated?
Harikeśa: But what we are forgetting is just illusion anyway.
Prabhupāda: That is liberation. Then I kill you, you forget everything—liberation. (laughter) What is the meaning of liberation? They do not know even the meaning of liberation.
Harikeśa: To get rid of all these miseries.
Prabhupāda: That you can do. I can kill you; you get rid of all miseries. Finished. You are finished; your miseries are finished. That's all.
Brahmānanda: It doesn't matter whether you live or you die because it is all one.
Prabhupāda: Well, let me kill you. That's all right. It will be great beneficial to you.
Prabhupāda: So how do you say that guidance is coming from formless? Because you have no such experience, why do you say something which is not within your experience?
Indian man (3): So whatever we experience should be...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise you cannot talk. If you cannot say anything which is not within your experience, then what is the meaning of that talk?
Indian man (2): Even if there is no form, we have to create a form.
Prabhupāda: Then you can protect from death? Can you?
Brahmānanda: But can God protect? Even Jesus Christ, he was killed.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are faulty. But you are so advanced. Do you protect yourself from death? We are faulty. That is your decision. That we admit. But what is your position? Protect yourself from death. At any moment death can take place. How you'll protect yourself? Therefore we take protection of God. That "God, You can kill me at any moment. You can save me also." Therefore we are intelligent. But you cannot protect from the onslaught of God. We admit God is great, but you do not, although you will not be protected. You cannot protect yourself from birth, death, old age and disease. So what is the meaning of your protection?
Brahmānanda: So both the devotee and the nondevotee, they are both in the same position. They both...
Prabhupāda: They... And the devotees know that we are under the control of the Supreme, but you do not know. You are cats and dogs, and the dogs do not know, the cats do not know, you do not know. Therefore you are no better than the cats and dogs. And we know that there is God; there is controller. Therefore we are not cats and dogs. We are equal to the cats and dogs. You do not know; therefore you remain cats and dogs. We know.
Cyavana: Well, we may have to accept the laws of nature, but at least we can...
Prabhupāda: And therefore, what is the meaning of taking care of future generation or this generation?
Cyavana: At least we can make it comfortable in this world.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. You have already given good medicine, good physician. And why he is dying? You cannot do anything. That is your position. You may try to do, but that is futile. Ultimate is different.
Cyavana: So by giving him medicine, maybe I can give him a better chance...
Prabhupāda: "Maybe" can be, but it is not guaranteed. You cannot do anything.
Prabhupāda: Civilization... If you remain in a dog's position, is that civilization? I proved that you are in a dog's position. How can you refute the argument which I have put, that you are in a dog's position? Exactly the dog. Śva-viḍ-varaha. Dog's position, hog's position, camel's position, and ass's position. These four animals have been compared. Śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. And "I have been given vote." Yes, śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ. You are animal, and other animals, they are giving you vote. That's all. You are very much proud that you are minister, you have got vote, but who has given you vote? The same animal class. What is the meaning of your vote? Śva-viḍ... How selected words in the Bhāgavatam. Śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This desire to accumulate money, is this just like annamaya stage?
Prabhupāda: That is doggish. The example, he has got already one loaf, but another dog: "This is also my stock." Why you should hanker after another? You have got already. Be satisfied. "No." That is doggish mentality.
Prabhupāda: And where are the fort makers? (laughter) Where they have gone?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They were shot out of the cannon.
Prabhupāda: So what is the meaning of this fort? If the fort makers are themselves finished, then what is the use of making fort?
Devotee (2): "Why should we live anymore? We're not getting any pleasure out of life. There's no future. Why should..." People are happy to die these days, because there is no pleasure.
Prabhupāda: There is no... Who said there is no pleasure?
Devotee (2): Well, in this world. I mean, this world is more or less suffering.
Prabhupāda: No, they say, "There is no pleasure," so then why you are wasting your time for pleasure?
Devotee (2): Yes, but they are confused.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to enjoy, but they're not finding pleasure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we give you enjoyment. Come to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Dogmatic, no. Why we should waste our time talking with such foolish men? "I don't believe." No, what... You believe or not believe; fact is fact. You are going to be old man. If you say "I don't believe," then is that a very good proposition? It does not depend on your believing or not believing. The nature's course will take place. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). That will go on. What is there in your believing and not believing? If you keep yourself in such darkness that "If you believe, then it is fact," then you are a fool, rascal. If you depend only on your belief, then you are a fool. What is the meaning of your belief? "I believe if I touch fire it will not burn." Will this belief protect me? You touch fire; it will burn. You believe or not believe. What is this argument, "We don't believe"? This is going on. If nature's law is that you must die, then if you believe, "No, I'll not die," will that belief protect you? You have to submit to the nature's law. Why don't you understand this? You are talking of "believe and not believe." Whole world is going on in this way: "We think," "I suppose," "Perhaps," "I believe," like this. Where is science? Science does not depend on your "belief, not belief, supposing, perhaps." This is not science. But they are going on like that. Whole Darwin's theory is based on this, "Maybe millions of years past..." We want perfect knowledge, not such, what is called, saṁśayam. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayaṁ, "without any doubt." That is knowledge. And samagram, "complete." So if we have got the chance of knowing complete, without any doubt, so why shall I go to you, rascal? Your knowledge is based on "perhaps, maybe." I will have to go somewhere to take knowledge, so why not go to Kṛṣṇa, where the knowledge is complete and without any doubt? Why shall I go to you, you rascal? You simply say "maybe, perhaps, I think." What is the use of this knowledge? We don't accept. You cannot say that "You are right; I am wrong" because you are also going to somebody to get knowledge, I am also going to somebody to get knowledge. So here it assured, that "complete knowledge without any doubt." But you have no such confidence. Am I right or not?
Prof. Olivier: I think about...around fifty-six cents or something. Somebody worked it out the other day.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if one cannot distinguish between the car and the driver of the car, then he remains just like a child. A child may think that the car is running automatically, but that is foolishness. There is a driver. The child may not know, but when the child is grown-up, educated, still he does not know, then what is the meaning of his education?
Prof. Olivier: Now, this is the whole range of education in, well, as far as I am aware, in the whole of the Western world, and it covers primary and secondary and tertiary education. There is no place for an in-depth study of...well, of the soul and of the...
Prabhupāda: I talked with one big professor in Moscow. Perhaps you may know him. His name is Professor Kotovsky. He is the leader of Indology in Moscow. So I had a talk with him for about an hour. That talk was published in some paper. He says, "Swamiji, after this body is annihilated, everything is finished." So I was surprised. And he is holding a very responsible post, Indology, and known to be very good scholar. He was good scholar, but he also does not know.
Prabhupāda: So similarly, they are keeping men as dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? They are educating general mass of people like cats and dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? Make them first of all sober men. Then there is question of peace. (break) ...God consciousness, there is no question of peace. (break) If we know that the Supreme Lord, God, is our father, and He has..., everything belongs to Him, His property; therefore, instead of fighting, let us enjoy father's property peacefully. Then there will be peace. We are peacefully walking in this park because we know that it is commonwealth; it is government's property. I can walk, and the dog can also walk. Then there will be peace. And if I think, "No, it is my property," and you think your property, then there will be fight between you and me. So where is peace? Why you claim South Africa as your property? You are foreigner. You want peace. You are expert in keeping them subdued, the Africans. Otherwise, lawfully, it is African property. Why you have taken? Either you make it God's property, otherwise make it African property. You have no right to come here. If you say God's property, then everyone has got equal right. So they do not know what is the meaning of peace.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...suffer. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That's a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy?
Prabhupāda: That I have repeatedly said. Therefore, because they are thinking like that, therefore they are rascals. That is the proof. There is no happiness; still, he is thinking, "I am happy." That is the proof that he's a rascal. (break)
Harikeśa: Well, we can admit that we're not happy all the time, but what is the meaning of happiness without distress? If there's no distress, how can I be happy?
Prabhupāda: So that is material knowledge. In order to taste happiness, you have to suffer. That is material happiness. And happiness, pure, is spiritual happiness. Here, in order to enjoy happiness, you have to suffer; then you can taste. Therefore that is not real happiness.
Prabhupāda: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such standard of religion the Western countries are not used to.
Prabhupāda: Where is religion in Western countries? There is no religion. All bogus thing. Religion means to surrender to God. Then where is God, and whom to surrender? They surrender to senses, that's all. So unless there is God, what is the meaning of religion? That is not religion. They have created something, civilized human society. There must be some religion. Just like aristocracy means he must have a good dog, that's all. There is no religion in the world except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All bogus.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all be yourself a cultured man, a gentleman. You are worse than animals. What animals cannot do, you are doing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...man is defined by Cāṇakya Paṇḍit.
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
Here is culture. First thing is, any woman except one's own wife.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: :What is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: :Any woman should be looked upon as mother. This is culture. Except his married wife, all women should be treated as mother. The brahmacārīs were taught like that, "Mother." This is culture. Simply they are trying to elope other's wife, other's woman, exploit them. And they're cultured. There is no culture at the present moment. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "And others' money should be treated just like pebbles in the street." Nobody cares for it. So they are simply making plans how to grab others' money. And Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu: "And if you feel pains and pleasure, you should consider for others also." If your throat is cut, then do you feel very happy? Why you are cutting the throats of the poor animals? Where is culture? There is no culture. Simply rogues and thieves and rascals and fools. Where is culture? They do not know what is the meaning of culture. Here is culture, three words:
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
Jñāna: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not so...
Prabhupāda: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example and they'll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi, sandeṣa, rasagullā, rabri, so many, halavā. They become: "Oh, so many nice things can be prepared from milk?" They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized, they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that's all. And this is going on as civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Real civilization means to understand God. Here is God. Who'll accept, either you say God or nature, that "You are under control. You are not free."? That, this dog's obstinacy, they will not take it. Like a dog. What is the meaning of dog obstinacy? He'll go on disturbing, "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" This is dog consciousness. How they can refuse, that "There is no authority"? They say, "No, we don't care for authority. Don't." But you are being kicked every moment: still, there is no authority? Just see obstinacy. Why you are becoming old? Every moment you are being kicked. You cannot remain young. You are trying to remain young with pomade, with some color, with some this, tea, wig, and... But you cannot, rascal. You cannot. You must become old. And still, he is thinking that he'll be able to remain young. This is called dog's obstinacy.
Jñāna: All living beings are independent, but some choose to serve and some choose to disbelieve.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is use of independence. Otherwise what is the meaning of independence? The meaning of independence is: "If I like, I can do. If I do not like, I do not do." That is independence. That means independence. If you are stereotyped, forced to do, that is not independence. Independence means if you like, you can do it, if not—you don't like-don't do it. That is independence. So misused independence means ignorance. He does not know that "If I infect this virus of this disease I'll suffer." But he does not know, ignorance. So he infects and he suffers.
Bhāgavata: I was thinking if we had him for the festival, to come to the festival, that would be a very prestigious...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why don't you arrange for that? You have to arrange. Yes. (break) ...king. Their constitution, first word is "the king can do no wrong." Yes, that is the Vedic system. Suppose a king beheads somebody by his own sword, as it was being done. Nobody can charge him that "Without any trial he has killed this man." No. Whatever is done... Just like we take Kṛṣṇa, apāpa viddham. Kṛṣṇa is never touched with any sinful activities. Apāpa-viddham. Tejiyasam na doṣaya (SB 10.33.29). Just as the sun, because it is very, very powerful, nothing can infect it. These are the dangers. (Hindi?) Of course, if you want to keep one in very exalted post, at the same time, if you want to find fault with him, then that is not good. That is not good. That is also stated, that arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. If somebody thinks that the Deity is made of stone and he criticizes, that is not allowed. If one thinks spiritual master as ordinary human being, that is not allowed. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. So those who are in highly exalted post of the state, you cannot find out fault with him. That is real Vedic way. Otherwise, if he is taken as ordinary citizen, then he is... What is the meaning of his exalted post?
Dr. Patel: Jñānavan māṁ prapadyante. That is knowledge. Jñāna means knowledge. That knowledge is the Supreme.
Prabhupāda: But that knowledge means actually jñānavān. Otherwise it is false knowledge. māyāyapahṛta-jñāna. If you do not know what is God, then what is the meaning of your knowledge?
Bhāgavata: You explain in the Gītā that
- bahunam janmanam ante
- jñānavān mam prapadyante
- vasudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is knowledge. Therefore so many mahātmās, sādhus, yogis, they are all useless, all useless because they have no bhakti. Simply artificially cheating people. (break) This is a society of cheaters and cheated. If you want to be cheated, there are many cheaters who will come and cheat you. That's all.
Prabhupāda: (break) Svarūpa Dāmodara is real scientist. He is admitting. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. What is that? Yad-uttama-śloka-guṇanuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22).
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
- sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
- avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
- yad uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam
- (SB 1.5.22)
Puṁsa, "of the human society," sviṣṭasya, "education..." Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya, sviṣṭasya, ca buddhi-dattayoḥ. Whatever big, big activities are there—education, charity, tapasya... Why these things are required? What is the meaning of becoming advanced in such things? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ: "Without any doubt, the artha, the conclusion, is that they should describe the wonderful activities of the Supreme Person." Then it is perfect education. And these rascals, they are saying, "Now we don't require God."
Viśāla: What does it mean to be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: No, what you mean, first of all let me know.
Harikeśa: What do you think fully Kṛṣṇa concious means? You tell Prabhupāda.
Viśāla: It's to see Kṛṣṇa face to face?
Prabhupāda: That means Kṛṣṇa conscious? Everyone is seeing Kṛṣṇa face to face. When you go to the temple Kṛṣṇa is there, and you are seeing. Does it mean everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Viśāla: No.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Indian man: Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54).
Prabhupāda: Hm, that is part of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, brahṁa bhūtaḥ. Real Kṛṣṇa consciousness is: "Kṛṣṇa is master, I am servant." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: "They are trying to prove" means so long they are rascals...
Dr. Patel: They are rascals. I quite agree with you. You have caught my rascals. (both laughing)
Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "progressing," that means they are rascals. Unless one is rascal, what is the meaning of progress? Hm? Rascal requires progress.
Dr. Patel: Whether they do progress or regress we don't know, but...
Prabhupāda: No, that progress means still rascals. After ten years they'll make no... This is progress. So they have no standard knowledge, and that is very much palatable, modern progress. Mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi, makes Patel laugh) Kṛṣṇa juta maro ha mam kavi ne jan...
Dr. Patel: (laughing heartily) ...you are very hard...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of vihāya? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: We tolerate everything. (more Hindi) The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is wholly at fault. Unfortunate. And that is the schools we are sending our children to, and these are the public schools.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi about the Gurukula in Vṛndāvana)
Dr. Patel: They're getting (indistinct) of knowledge, after all they will (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: We are opening gurukula, but who will give? A gentleman will not give. Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Prabhupāda: Culture means human being.
Dr. Patel: Human...?
Prabhupāda: Human being. Just like Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. This is culture to see every woman as mother. This is not education. Education, the modern meaning of education is rubbish, to learn ABCD. This is not education. Without culture, what is the meaning of education?
Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not education. Here is education, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says:
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmāvat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
Here is a description of paṇḍita: first of all learn how to see other woman as your mother. There the culture begins. And they are, from the very beginning of the school college life, they are learning how to entice one girl. This is education.
Harikeśa: He says he wants to determine the laws of connection of ideas.
Prabhupāda: But idea is also not fact. And what is other word?
Harikeśa: "The laws of connection of ideas."
Prabhupāda: If the idea is imperfect, then where is, what is the meaning of this law? That is also imperfect.
Harikeśa: Well, actually there's three things here. And they work together. 'Cause he calls this psychology. And the second one...
Prabhupāda: But psychology is also imperfect.
Harikeśa: So, yes, he's going to now connect that with physics. He says, "To discover the laws of connections of sensations..."
Prabhupāda: But physics, physical law, also, you are studying with your imperfect senses. So how far it is perfect? Just like the physical laws. There is heat in the sun, temperature. So you are seeing from long distance, and you are suggesting, "There cannot be any light." So this is imperfect.
| Page Title: | What is the meaning of... (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Archana, Serene |
| Created: | 30 of Oct, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=142, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 142 |