Śyāmasundara: Let us say the proposition that "The sum of the angles of a triangle equals 180 degrees," that is a proposition. It can be demonstrated on paper but it cannot be verified by experiential data.
Devotee: If you're steering a ship you can make use of it, can't you?
Śyāmasundara: It can be made use of and it can be called valid or invalid.
Prabhupāda: What does he want more?
Śyāmasundara: He wants to know true and false. That this "Sum of the angles equal to 180 degrees" can be said to be valid or invalid, but it cannot be said to be true or false.
Prabhupāda: Then in that way, what he proposes, that is also false, because in this material world there is no truth. Everything is false. So his philosophical proposition is also false.
Śyāmasundara: Actually, he came to recognize that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then that's all right. Then why he is bothering about something false? That is another foolishness.
Devānanda: I thought that that was a Māyāvādī theory, that everything is false.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants to accept false, again make botheration.
Śyāmasundara: No. He does not say false, he says that the sum of the...
Prabhupāda: Better thing is that as we say, it is not false, but it is temporary.
Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say true or false, he says that the sum of the angles...
Prabhupāda: Just now you said that it cannot be verified. That means false.
Śyāmasundara: It cannot be verified if it is true or false. But it can...
Prabhupāda: That means doubt. It is doubtful.
Śyāmasundara: Just like the proposition, "The sum of the angles of a triangle equals 180 degrees."
Prabhupāda: That is accepted by the scientists and mathematicians.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. That can be said to be a valid proposition or an invalid proposition. Demonstrated.
Prabhupāda: Why invalid? It is valid because all mathematicians, all scientists, they have accepted it.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. It can be demonstrated that it is valid on paper. But it cannot be said that it is true or false by our experiential data.
Prabhupāda: No. That can be said, it is false, because in this world everything is a temporary manifestation. So this world itself is a temporary manifestation. This big sky and this planet and everything is a temporary manifestation.
Śyāmasundara: So even that law is temporary, that "The sum of the angles equals 180 degrees"?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: That's only temporary.
Prabhupāda: Temporary in this sense: because the existence of this universe is also temporary. So whatever is there is temporary.
Śyāmasundara: But even when this universe ends, doesn't that law carry on?
Prabhupāda: Just like this waterpot. This waterpot, you can say false or true. False means when it breaks, then it no longer will be waterpot; it becomes earth again. From the earth it is made, and again it becomes earth. Therefore the shape of this waterpot is not false but temporary. That is the right word. It will not remain as earthen pot for very long time. It will break, and when it breaks, it again becomes earth, from which it was made; therefore this shape is temporary.
Śyāmasundara: That example of the pot, we can verify if it is true or false by our senses.
Prabhupāda: The senses, it is also senses. I am taking it as waterpot, that is I am taking it by my senses. But the shape of the waterpot is temporary.
Śyāmasundara: That can be proven.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever there is in this world, even this house, this big house, this is also temporary.
Śyāmasundara: But what about a principle, like "Two plus two equals four"?
Prabhupāda: Principle is truth, but the manifestation is temporary. Principle... Just like earth. Just like we hear from Bhagavad-gītā, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca: (BG 7.4) "This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, they are My separated energies." And because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, and Kṛṣṇa is true, therefore that energy is true. But this interaction of the energy, manifestation of different things out of that energy, that is temporary. Therefore it is called material energy or external energy, temporary manifestation.
Śyāmasundara: What about the proposition that "Two plus two equals four"?
Prabhupāda: That is also temporary.
Śyāmasundara: That disappears when this universe disappears?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When the universe disappears, everything disappears. Who is going to calculate "Two plus two equals four"? Everything is finished.
Śyāmasundara: The principle does not carry on, despite...
Prabhupāda: The principle will carry on when again there will be manifestation. Just like this waterpot, it breaks, it becomes earth, and again from earth we make waterpot. Therefore this principle that the waterpot is made out of earth, that is a fact, but the waterpot as we see, that is temporary. Creation of the waterpot from earth is a fact. Similarly, this material world is a creation out of Kṛṣṇa's external energy. That is a fact. Kṛṣṇa's energy is fact. Kṛṣṇa is fact.