Prabhupāda: Hm. So engage all yourselves in the service of Kṛṣṇa. It is very pleasing, and what is called encouraging, enlivening. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is frustration. That stage is coming to your country. Therefore the boys are becoming hippies. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is—that is natural-frustration. There is a good example in our country, one Mr. C.R. Das. He was a great leader, next to Gandhi, important political leader. So he was on the topmost of... He was lawyer, barrister. He was earning fifty thousand dollars monthly, very rich man. And he was making charity, and he was spending like thing (anything). He was drunkard number one, woman-hunter number one, and everything. Because he had money he could enjoy everything. But he was not happy. So one day he was sitting with his wife. Just like in the street, he was looking over. So his wife asked him—his name was Chittaranjan—"Chittaranjan, you are earning so much. You are spending. People are very much fond of you. You are a great leader. Why you always remain morose? What do you want to be? You have got now everything." So at that time one mendicant, a sannyāsī was passing. So Chittaranjan said, "I want to be like him. Then I will be happy. I don't want to enjoy. I want to beggar, to be beggar-like." You see? So that time is coming to your country. So these hippies, they are frustrating. They have given up everything. We can study their psychic movement. They are not satisfied. That is the main principle. That is natural, to accept adversity voluntarily, adversity. So this is frustration. But before reaching to that point of frustration, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you reach the real standard of happiness because everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. I shall give you another example. Suppose you have stolen something from somebody's house or some friends. You will not be happy, even possessing that thing, stolen property. But if someday you come to return that thing to that friend, you will be happy. What do you think, Hayagrīva?
Want to enjoy (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is comparison, a small spiritual spark. That's all. We are spark. So long it does not develop a body... That body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. He wants to enjoy. So, so long he has forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.
Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?
Prabhupāda: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body.
Prabhupāda: Some people means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see?
Journalist (1): He rejects.
Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool-headed, that "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right.
Mensa Member: Knowledge of the process is comparatively important. If you want to enjoy it more you don't have to know about enzymes and proteins, you have to know about the right sort of wine so that...
Śyāmasundara: Enjoyment is the standard.
Dr. Weir: And there, what worries me, I was going a stage further, you do tend to find the people who want to understand about digestion are those whose stomachs are not very good.
Prabhupāda: Another thing is. Just like grass, straw. The cows are eating straw and giving the most vitaminous food, milk, full of vitamins A and D. But if you scientifically say that there is, I mean to say, vitamins in the grass and straw, then you eat straw. Vitamins is there.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No. That I have explained. You work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is called "Don't see to the result." Kṛpaṇa, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. Kṛpaṇa. There are two classes of men. One is kṛpaṇa, and one is brāhmaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, they want his sense satisfaction, and brāhmaṇa, they want Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. Satisfaction must be there but when you want your satisfaction, that is kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. He wants to enjoy the result. That is the whole world. Material world means everyone wants his sense satisfaction, but the same way, when you'll satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, then you become brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava. The result must be there. If you work, there must be some result, bad or good. But if you want to enjoy, yourself, then you are kṛpaṇa. And if the result is enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, then you are brāhmaṇa. Result must be there.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: As soon you try to kill or attack, then he protests. And there is feeling also. Why? Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they want to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupāda: If you say so, then material enjoyment or enjoyment, material or spiritual, it doesn't matter...
Someone: Good morning.
Prabhupāda: Good morning. Thank you. (indistinct) Then every living entity wants to enjoy. And that is the Vedānta-sūtra. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Why they want to enjoy?
Prabhupāda: His constitutional position is ānandamaya, joyfulness, but he does not get here that ānanda. He's seeking that ānanda, but it is being checked by conditions. He cannot enjoy. There are so many impediments. Just like we want to walk. But there are so many impediments. We want to walk on the sea beach but there are so many obstacles. So my position is that I want to enjoy, and nature's position is that she will check it. She'll not allow. Why? Why I am put into this condition? What do the scientists reply, rascals?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't have any answer.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't have any answer.
Prabhupāda: That means they're rascals. They do not know.
Prabhupāda: That I am struggling. That is my business here. I am simply struggling. Laws of nature is obstructing my process of enjoyment, and I want to enjoy. Why this position? We inquire these intelligent questions. What they are inquiring? They do not know what to inquire.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Fools. Animals.
Brahmānanda: Sanātana Gosvāmī also asked that question to Caitanya Mahāprabhu...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the question of human life, that: "I want to enjoy. Why there is obstruction of my enjoyment?" Then the next question will be then what I am and what is this nature? These are intelligent questions. That is called brahma-jijñāsā. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? These are very minor questions. They are questions for animals. For the human being, this is the question, that "I want to enjoy life. Why there are so many obstructions?" This is human question. The animals, they do not question. They submit. Just like when you slay one animal, it submits. But a human being, there is law because human being is intelligent. So you cannot kill any other human being, you cannot murder. Then you'll be hanged. But they cannot make law. They're lower grade animals. They submit, somebody killing. But the objection is there, both by the human beings and the animals, that the: "Why you are killing me?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, our Society is association. If we keep good association, then we don't touch the darkness. What is that association? There is a song, sat-saṅga cari goinu asate vilāsa teka name lagi loma karma bandha phāṅsa.(?) Sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga means association with the devotees. That is called sat-saṅga. So the, one poet, Vaiṣṇava poet, is regretting that "I did not keep association with the devotees, and I wanted to enjoy life with the nondevotees. Therefore I'm being entangled in the fruitive activities." Karma bandha phāṅsa. Entanglement. Here in this material world we act, and the result is there. Again we enjoy the result and act, again another result. We act, another result, another result. Because as soon as you act, there will be some result, good or bad. So, good or bad, by good result we get good birth, good money, good bodily features, good education—these are the effects of good work.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So Napoleon was. But before constructing that arch, he was finished in battle of Waterloo. So all the struggle he made to make France a great country and him to become a great leader was futile. It was not perfectly done. In one statue I saw, "France and Napoleon identical." But France is there; where is Napoleon? Therefore it is called illusion, māyā. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy. Then how he was sticking to that politics? And because he was sticking to that politics, he was killed. If he would have retired from politics, he would not have been killed. Therefore because he was sticking to that politics means he wanted to enjoy the fruit. But he could not.
Prabhupāda: ...one is yogi. Karmī, jñānī, yogi or bhakta. What is the difference between karmīs, jñānīs, yogis and bhakta?
Hṛdayānanda: Karmī wants to enjoy the gross senses, the jñānī wants to enjoy the subtle mind, mental speculation, the yogi wants to manipulate the universe, mystic powers,...
Prabhupāda: Material power.
Hṛdayānanda: And a devotee has no material desires. (He wants) to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And unless one is factually desireless, he cannot be happy. The karmī, jñānī, yogi, they are all full of desires. Therefore they are unhappy. Karmīs are the lowest of the unhappies, jñānīs are little advanced, yogis are little more advanced, and the perfection is the bhakta, devotees.
Prabhupāda: No, there is design. They do not know it. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). It is said in the Bhaga... Adhyakṣeṇa means "under My superintendence." That means under some plan. What is the plan of this material world? The plan of material world is that some rascals, living entities, they wanted to enjoy. So God has given this plan, "All right, you enjoy." This is the plan. And not only enjoy. "You enjoy; again come back." This is the plan. Pravṛtti-nivṛtti. First of all he is given that "All right, you take all facilities of enjoyment." Therefore Veda is that "You enjoy like this, and after you have fulfilled your enjoyment, come back again." This is God mercy.
Prabhupāda: We wanted to enjoy. We wanted to enjoy. God has given full freedom to enjoy, but this enjoyment is not perfect. Therefore God comes. He says, "Now you have enjoyed, but you have not enjoyed. You have simply suffered. Therefore please come back again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we don't experience, we may not know that we are suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got little freedom. Therefore this freedom is given, "All right..." So by freedom, sometimes we are becoming Lord Brahmā and sometimes the germ in the stool. This is going on. Otherwise, why there are so many different types of living entities? That freedom is acting under three modes: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and tamo-guṇa. And when they are multiplied, three into three equals nine, nine into eighty-one; therefore 8,400,000 species.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance. "All right enjoy (indistinct)," and giving instruction also that you enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again. Just like a father. Children wants to play in the (indistinct). "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. (indistinct), they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right enjoy". And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that "now you give up all this (indistinct) come back, then you (indistinct)." He created for you. Same example I always give.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you, you enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. Then Kṛṣṇa says that, "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be accepted." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda, to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say "Mr. such and such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall do that, void?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharma aviruddho. Dharma aviruddho means putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. Putrārthe bhāryā. Wife is accepted only for getting son, not for sexual intercourse. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. So when you have sex life simply for generating good son, that is Kṛṣṇa. And if you want to enjoy your senses, that is pāpa.
Mr. Sar: That's correct.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mr. Sar: If you take that way, then the...
Prabhupāda: If you take contraceptive and enjoy sex life...
Prabhupāda: But government does not want that. Only the criminals are sent there. That's all. Similarly, this material creation, there was no necessity. But because there are criminals who want to enjoy, therefore God has given this facility, "All right, you enjoy."
Dr. Patel: The whole material world is created by the propensity of the past actions of all... (break)
Prabhupāda: No, because God knows that "There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want,..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Engage them. māyā... It is not actually māyā's fault, this māyā's business that all living entities who are within this material world, they have come to enjoy. Enjoy means sense gratification. So māyā is kind enough to give them all facilities. That is māyā's business. māyā has a machine, these three qualities, and as I want to enjoy, so there are departmental arrangements, "Give him facilities like this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Satsvarūpa: But the facility turns out to be slaps.
Prabhupāda: Slaps... We will go on the street?
Mahāṁsa: It's not very... It's all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). So Rādhārāṇī is the hlādinī-śakti. So when the Para-brahman wants to enjoy, He does not enjoy in this, the material energy. He expands His own pleasure potency. That is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa tattva. Tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptam caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭum adhunā. "They have again become united in the form of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Rādhā kṛṣṇa nāhe anya. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā kṛṣṇa nāhe anya. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād ekātmānāv api deha... (CC Adi 1.5). Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in every respect. We imitate, "I am the lord of everything." That is also imitation.
Prabhupāda: They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature. There is no freedom. Only varieties of sense enjoyment is offered because he want, want, wants. Actually, that is not enjoyment. That is bound up. Nature's... If you enjoy more sex life, nature says, "All right, you become impotent for ten years." And still he wants to enjoy. Little this way, that way—immediately punishment. "Oh, you have eaten more, three days suffer. No diet, no food. Suffer dysentery." And they are enjoying. What is this enjoyment? As soon as violate a little of the nature's law you are immediately punished. Na te viduḥ. Īśa-tantryāṁ baddhāḥ. Īśa-tantryām, the laws of nature, they are so much bound up, hands and legs. Still, they are declaring freedom. What is the freedom? Immediately he will be kicked by shoes as soon as he violates a little, immediately. There is ocean of salt. Now we require salt for making our foodstuff very tasty.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Therefore everything should be employed for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, for His pleasure. Suppose you create something... You create some building, you create some family, you create some... So many things. You want to enjoy it. Otherwise, why you create? Why you take the responsibility of a family? For your enjoyment. Otherwise who takes care of the family? So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person. He has created us, Kṛṣṇa's family. We also address Kṛṣṇa, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And He's actually giving us bread. Not only us, to all the living entities. So it is a big family, and Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. So we should all be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Not Vedic philosophy. They will understand God.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So does this mean that by their activities that they're engaging in now their incentive is that they want to enjoy these four sinful activities...? And that really they're not looking for truth? That's...
Prabhupāda: They have no inquiry for truth. Animal life. As soon as there will be inquiry for the truth, that is human life.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They will naturally perform some tapasya?
Prabhupāda: Yes, then other things will follow. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. They do not inquire. That means animal life. As soon as there is inquiry, jijñāsu, jñānī jijñāsu... They're not jijñāsu even. Neither jñānī.
Prabhupāda: No, why? The standard of living should be one: plain living and God consciousness. That is the disease. Everyone wants to enjoy this material world to his best capacity. Therefore we divide. They don't want to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Material consciousness. Enjoyment of the senses. And that is the cause of their suffering. Only on account of this sense gratification, they're creating different mentality, and, after death, they're getting different body. That they do not know. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. One is trying to associate with the goodness, brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa qualification, he'll be promoted, and one who is trying to imitate, "I shall be as powerful as the tiger," he'll be degraded.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, the living entity is called puruṣa, and that puruṣa wants to enjoy the prakṛti.
M. Lallier: Is it possible to... (French)
Pṛthu Putra: Is it possible for the soul to enjoy the material nature?
Prabhupāda: It is not possible, but he's trying to do that. That is the disease. Just like in your country, Napoleon, he tried his best to use whole Europe to be controlled by him. So he made some attempt, but he is finished now. The Europe is there, but he's gone away. Similarly, it is just like... The example is: Just like a fly wants to enjoy the fire. He comes with force there, and he is finished. Similarly, in this material world, every, all living entities, they're trying to enjoy. With great force, they are coming. And different capacities, they try to enjoy, but they themselves become finished. The things remain where it was. So so many living entities... Exa... The example, the fly is very proper. So many flies are coming, (makes sound:) "Phut! Phut! Phut! Phut!" in the big fire. You have no experience here?
Prabhupāda: The, the... When he forgets that he cannot enjoy, the only enjoyer is God, Kṛṣṇa, when he forgets this principle he wants to enjoy.
M. Lallier: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is called illusion, māyā. Actually, he cannot enjoy, but, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, the real enjoyer, he wants to enjoy. That is his... Just like a child imitates the mother for cooking. The other day, in Geneva, the fire ceremony was going on. The mother was offering oblations, and the child also immediately took some and he... You have seen that?
Prabhupāda: These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking "I shall become minister," somebody is thinking "I shall become leader," somebody is thinking "I shall become millionaire," and at last, "I shall become God." So even the so-called religionist, that heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī. Bhukti means ordinary karmīs want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti, they also want "I shall become God, I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." One with God means I'll become. Bhukti-mukti and siddhi. The yogis, they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing, (indistinct) Baba. He has some yogic siddhi, so he has some (indistinct). Otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that "If I pay him one lakh, I shall get two lakhs."
Prabhupāda: When we exchange rasa, transcendental mellow, (Sanskrit), then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered around the sex, this way or that way, similarly the transcendentalists, they are..., their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you can accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The nature will give you the chance. If you want to enjoy stool next life, it will be available.(?) You enjoy. That is nature's law—"If you like this, come on. Take it." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhutānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if He sees that "This rascal desires like this," immediately He orders to the material nature, "Give him a body like hog. He wants to enjoy." Brahmāyan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is already stated. If you want a hog's body, immediately it is ready. You can get a dog's body, hog's body. Similarly, if you want devotee's body, that will be offered also to you. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you desire, Kṛṣṇa is ready to give you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, senses are meant for enjoyment. But if you want to enjoy your senses in diseased condition, that is your misfortune. You have to cure your disease, then you will enjoy. Just like the tongue, in diseased condition, even if you are given rasagullā, you will not taste it. Senses, we are not the Māyāvādīs, they finish the senses, make, become impersonal. That is not our program. We want to purify the senses. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Purīfy. The diseased man, he cannot see. He has got some glaucoma disease. Cure it, and he will see very nicely. That is our program. The Māyāvādī program is that if this eye is giving trouble, I cannot see, pluck it out. We are not doing that, we are trying to cure the disease and see. So senses should be cured, and then you will be able to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you manufacture your program of enjoyment, then you will be slapped. And if you enjoy according to the direction of the father, then you'll enjoy. This is the... Kṛṣṇa says, "Enjoy life. All right. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. Live peacefully. Always think of Me. Worship Me." That we have prescribed. Come here and think of Kṛṣṇa. And so that is enjoyment. So they don't want. They want liquor. They want illicit sex. They want meat. So therefore they must be slapped. Actually all this whole universe is made for your enjoyment, but enjoy it according to His direction. Then you will enjoy. That is the difference between demigod and demon. The demon wants to enjoy, manufacturing his own way of life. And the demigod, they enjoy better than the demons because under the direction of God.
Guest: One restaurant near Metro was serving that type. And one man suffering from leprosy was given only about one month to live, and "If you want to enjoy, you enjoy. But if you want to get cured, you have to eat human flesh." "I don't eat human flesh." So he started eating anywhere. And he liked one place very much, and he started eating for one month at that particular place. And eventually he was cured. Then a police report was found out that they were serving human flesh by inviting very poor people from the South India for washing the dishes at night, giving five rupees. When they come, they kill him and serve in the morning.
Prabhupāda: That was being done long, long ago in a Chinese house in Calcutta. They'd call hawker.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you want to enjoy. This is the nature of ātmā. I want to enjoy. This is blissfulness. Then, why are you trying to become a philosopher?
Kim: For understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore knowledge. Why do you not like to die? Because you are eternal. Therefore ātmā's nature is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. This is knowledge. Sat cit ānanda. Do you know Sanskrit?
Kim: No, but some words.
Prabhupāda: That is ātmā's nature. Sat cit ānanda. Eternal, full of knowledge, and blissful.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can the position be reconciled if in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one of the two, the husband or the wife, wants to enjoy sense gratification, but the other does not? Should there be separation then?
Prabhupāda: No... They should be trained up. Sense enjoyment means not advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as one is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his sense enjoyment spirit will be reduced. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). The test is, how you are advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the proportionate diminishing of sense enjoyment. That is the test. Just like cure of the disease means diminishing the fever, temperature. This is the test.
Prabhupāda: No, enjoyment in this way of life more sense enjoyment, you will never be able to enjoy or happiness. That is not possible. That is the nature's way. (Aside:) You can close the door. If you simply want to enjoy, you can enjoy. But you will create more miseries. So this is one way of life, that you enjoy your senses and create more miseries. This is one way of life. And if you want to decrease your miseries, then there is another life, which is called simple life. Simple life means you produce your food and you produce your cloth so you dress yourself nicely, you eat, yourself, nicely, keep yourself fit and glorify the Lord. This is one way of life. And the other way of life, that "We don't care for the Lord. Let us enjoy the senses to the topmost capacity and be happy..." So this way of life will never make you happy.
Prabhupāda: No, he has taken that particular body in terms of his past activities. One is born as a human child; one is born as a dog, cat; one is born as something else. So according, the body is offered by material nature according to his work. That we were discussing, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Material nature, by the order... God is within you. God is sitting there. He knows what you want. So God orders material nature, "Give him such and such body. He wants to enjoy like this." So material nature... Just he gives up this body, he is under the control of the material nature. The material nature sends him to such a father and the father gives the semina in the mother's womb, and mother gives him the body.
Prabhupāda: Then it will be regular. It is nature's punishment. You may not care what is sinful life, but that is recorded. That is foolishness. "I don't care for God, don't care for what is going to happen." That is foolishness. People, lower planetary system, they are like that. In this planet also. In Western countries there are many places. "Don't care for anything, what is sinful life, what is going to happen. Let us enjoy, that's all." This is their philosophy. "Let us enjoy, that's all." Materialistic point of view is like that. They do not know that we are eternal and we are responsible for our activities. That is knowledge. But they have no knowledge. They simply want to enjoy. They do not care for death also. Simply sense gratification. That's all. This is called dānava, dānava life. The scientist explain for so many varieties. They accept there are varieties. Why there are so many varieties of life?
Prabhupāda: "These material elements, they are also My energy." So how Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? Bhinna, separated, a little separated, that's all. Separated means as soon as you separate Kṛṣṇa from anything, that is material. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be spiritual. As soon as you say these demons they separate Kṛṣṇa, "What is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? We are scientist, we are technicians and so on, so on. We create our own thing." That means they don't dovetail with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are materialist. When we want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And Kṛṣṇa gives chance, "All right, you enjoy without Me." And when he is disgusted, then Kṛṣṇa comes once, "Now you have experienced. You haven't got happiness. Now give up this attitude to enjoy without Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam... (BG 18.66).
Prabhupāda: "Do it." This is going on. The rascals, they want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa; the dancing is here also, ball dance. Why they do not get any pleasure? Without Kṛṣṇa. You dance with Kṛṣṇa, you get real pleasure. So our business is to educate people that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa. You try to understand." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa. That is your argument. Just like the materialistic person argue, "Why shall I do this? Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa?" They argue simply this. Actually, there cannot exist anything without Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, Kṛṣṇa says. "All this, whatever you see, that is My expansion of energy. Everything is resting on Me." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is on Me." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. By bhakti-yoga gradually he develops that everything—vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)—everything is Kṛṣṇa. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That mahātmā is very rare who can see everywhere Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.
Prabhupāda: Just like if you are put into the prison house and if you want to live very comfortably, is it possible? Prison house is meant for giving you trouble so that you may be rectified, no more stealing, not to become criminal. It is meant for punishment. Similarly, this whole material world is meant for punishing these criminals who wanted to enjoy independently God's property. They are all criminals. We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: (BG 5.29) "I am the friend of all living entities." But these people, they are claiming that... The leader is claiming, "I am the friend," and he is claiming, "I am the proprietor." They are, therefore, criminal. He is not friend. Just like your president.
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I thought you said that the demons are not in Kṛṣṇaloka. That's just in Gokula, when Kṛṣṇa comes here.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy to kill the demons. In the Kṛṣṇaloka there is no demons. He doesn't get that opportunity. Therefore He comes down to enjoy killing. Just like hunter, by killing, enjoys, so Kṛṣṇa enjoys by killing the demons. (break) Water?
Brahmānanda: Water core. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...no rose here? We don't see any rose.
Kuruśreṣṭha: They don't like to grow nice things for fear someone will take them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this is a car, machine, but if I want a bigger car, that means another car, not this car is growing. Suppose sometimes you get baby car. That is not sufficient. I want big car. So you cannot say that increase the baby car and it becomes a sedan car. That means you require another big car. A child, a child cannot have sex in that body. The same child, when he wants to enjoy sex, he must have another body. So these rascals, they cannot understand how different machines has been supplied by nature. It is supplying.
Ambarīṣa: Yes, I think it's...
Prabhupāda: Because he desired. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañchā kare. When he wants to enjoy this material world... In the spiritual world there is only one enjoyer. And in the material world everyone is a enjoyer. He is planning in his own way how to enjoy. That is material world. In the spiritual world the enj..., is Kṛṣṇa, and all others is helping in His enjoyment. But in material world everyone is thinking, "I am enjoyer," and he is planning in his own way.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, modern philosophy is teaching that the forces of greed and lust and these things are greater than man, that actually... This concept that we are eternal, full of knowledge and bliss, they cannot accept that or understand that. They're thinking that the powers of evil are much greater, and we're just controlled by these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So when the jīva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. (break)
Dharmādhyakṣa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare. When they forget to serve Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy this material world... Don't you see that these Māyāvādī philosophers are trying for liberation, and still, they are expecting to become God. That is another desire. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. The high ambition, to become God or equal to God, that is going on, struggle for existence.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about these rascals like Sai Baba? They use Kṛṣṇa's philosophy, and then they twist it in such a way that it becomes Māyāvāda.
Prabhupāda: No, no. He's a cheater. People want to be cheated. They come to sādhu for some material benefit. Don't you see that people are so much anxious to touch the feet of a sādhu? What is the reason? Reason is that if he gets some favor of the sādhu, "Then I shall be happy materially." That's all. They have no idea, becoming servant of Kṛṣṇa. Āśīrvāda (Hindi).
Harikeśa: But I want to enjoy right now.
Prabhupāda: Suppose that you enjoy this woman for few minutes. Then you will be shot down. Then will you be able to enjoy?
Brahmānanda: Actually they do that. When some man is to be executed in the prison they give him one woman the night before as a special consolation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They finish him off completely. They ruin him. (laughing)
Cyavana: But death is very far away from me. I am only thirty years old. I don't have to worry about death.
Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? There is no guarantee.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to enjoy, but they're not finding pleasure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we give you enjoyment. Come to Kṛṣṇa. No tree?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are some mango trees behind the house where we're staying, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're not in season right now. There is some fruit on this tree. See up there? There is some fruit. Could be a mango tree.
Prabhupāda: What are these plants? Pineapple? No. Different. (break) ...intelligent. Just like here is sunshine. Wherefrom the sunshine is coming? We can see the sun globe. So what is the arrangement there? This is inquiry. And there must be some heating arrangement, lighting arrangement. There must be some fire. And who has made this fire? How it came, so big fire that the whole universe is heated and light? This is inquiry.
Prabhupāda: Then you'll enjoy. Enjoyment is your right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is your right, but you are now diseased. Why don't you see to this? You are dying therefore. You are becoming old therefore. This is your disease. That they will not admit. In the diseased condition they want to enjoy. Then tuberculosis. If a tuberculosis person, suffering from tuberculosis, he wants to enjoy sex, that means he will die very soon. His life is finished. But he wants that, that "I shall suffer from tuberculosis, at the same time enjoy." Then all right, go to hell. What can be done? Enjoyment is the life, but when you are diseased, you must first of all "Heal thyself," then enjoy. That enjoyment will be nice. This is the instruction of śāstra, that you are working so hard day and night like hogs and dogs, but where is your enjoyment? First of all cure your disease. Then you will be happy.
Prabhupāda: Why fatalistic? It is practical. You want to live, you want to enjoy this nice house, but you are not allowed. Why don't you talk practically? That is your foolishness, that you will not be allowed—that's a fact—but still, you are spoiling your energy. That is foolishness.
Harikeśa: Well, it's not exactly spoiling. We are really enjoying.
Prabhupāda: What enjoying?
Harikeśa: When it's too hot we can make it cooler. When it's too cool we can make it hotter.
Prabhupāda: The real thing is they do not retire on account of their strong sense of gratification. That is the reason, not that poverty-stricken. Even though poverty-stricken, still they want to enjoy. This is the basic principle. There is nothing to be enjoyed; still, he wants to enjoy. That mentality.
Dr. Patel: Why with all that glorious past and glorious culture they have to... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the principle, varṇāśrama-dharma.
Prabhupāda: Desire is there. Desire is there. Just like in your country, the nudism going on. The desire is, "Ah, I shall remain free, naked." So Kṛṣṇa is giving you facility, "Alright, you stand here for thousands of years as tree, naked, nobody will criticize. You want to remain naked on the public street and you want to enjoy in that way, alright you become tree."
Harikeśa: Because desire is a function of consciousness, which is a symptom of the spirit soul, it's very powerful.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: Because it's spiritual actually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are going to have that, next life! (laughter) Because you are desiring, you will get this life. Kṛṣṇa will fulfill your desire. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante māyā... (BG 4.11). Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Kṛṣṇa is within you. You are thinking that I will be very much happy if I enjoy sex like the dog. Kṛṣṇa notes, and next life, "My dear friend here is the body. You enter and enjoy." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... (BG 18.61). He is noting down your desire. Hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. Māyayā brāhmayan sarva-bhūtāni, yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is clearly explained. Alright, you want the enjoyment like dog, here is. Remembrance is also there. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). You wanted to enjoy sex like a dog. Now I have given you this body, now you enjoy. Everything is there, arranged.
Prabhupāda: Not prophylactic. Technical name. So, but that was not enjoyable. So then they discovered pills. So covered enjoyment is not enjoyment. It is not complete enjoyment. The same.... The real enjoyment in this material world is sex. Now if we want to enjoy sex, covered with coats and pants, is that enjoyment is pleasing?
Harikeśa: No.
Prabhupāda: Therefore actually when they want to enjoy sex in the private room, they become naked. So they are seeking enjoyment with this material body, but they are not able to enjoy on account of being covered. This is the thesis.
Prabhupāda: Well, why do you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness immediately? From practical point of view. So why they want to enjoy sex life being naked? That means covered enjoyment is not enjoyment. It is hampered enjoyment. Therefore we living entities, or, say, human beings, we want enjoyment. That's all right. But we are not able to enjoy fully because we are covered by something. This is the thesis. This is the thesis. But these rascals, or the ignorant persons, they do not know that "I am covered by something. Therefore my enjoyment is not complete." This is the thesis. So you answer this. Our enjoyment is not being completed on account of being covered by this material body. This is the thesis.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Living entity is also atom. One class of atom is matter, and one class of atom is the living entity. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.... Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). These are... This material, matter, everything is combination of atom, atomic particles. Either you take earth or take water or air or fire, everything is combination of atom. That's a fact. But we know that these atoms are coming out as the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Bhinnā. Bhinnā means the quality different; not of the same quality. Apareyam: "This is inferior quality, but there is another, superior quality, jīva bhuta, and that is living entity." So two kinds of atoms are coming from Kṛṣṇa. One is the spiritual atom, and the other is the material atom. So spiritual atoms, they are many, many times greater than the material atoms. And these material atoms is this universal, innumerable universes. Some of the spiritual atoms, when they want to enjoy independently, they are given the chance of enjoying this material atom.
Prabhupāda: You can... If you want to enjoy, who can stop you?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot..., we cannot support it. We cannot support his enjoyment. That he should take on his own self to do.
Prabhupāda: They... According to different position and attitude, the four āśramas are there: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. This means that everyone is not on the equal platform. Different platform. But the whole idea is how to give up the propensity of enjoyment. That is wanted.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We find in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam that Śukadeva Gosvāmī would approach the householders in the morning just so long as to give them a little bit of spiritual knowledge, and he would accept the offering of some milk. So the sannyāsīs and renunciates, generally, they wouldn't very much relish the association of householders because of this enjoying spirit and the association that it entails.
Prabhupāda: He's more sinful. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. He has not yet finished his sinful activities; therefore it takes some time. Neither he surrenders fully. Just like somebody said, "I want to enjoy material world." Just see. That is sinful.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa will protect any living entity who surrenders?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even from all sinful reactions.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66).
Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād (CC Adi 1.5). Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding.
Prabhupāda: We desire, and nature will give you another body. māyā-yantrārūḍhāni. He'll give you, "Ride on this car, you wanted, on this body." And this... This is creation of māyā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is there, orders māyā, "He wants to enjoy life. Give him this body." "Come on, here is a hog's body, eat nicely, stool. Come on." He did not like to eat prasādam. He wanted something rubbish. "All right, come here. Take this stool." These things are going automatically. The same way, as you infect some disease, immediately the disease is there. You haven't got to manufacture diseases. Because you have infected yourself with the disease germ, "Take this disease." Therefore it is warned, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), "Don't desire anything except Kṛṣṇa's service." Then you are immune.
Prabhupāda: There is purpose. We have explained so many times. The purpose is that we have come here to enjoy, but this enjoyment is false. God has given us the chance to enjoy, to experience that this enjoyment is not good. They are simply suffering. They cannot enjoy. The plan is that he's given the chance to enjoy and experience that here there is no enjoyment and he's simply suffering. So when he comes to his sense, he again goes back home. The thief, he thinks that to live in the prison house is very good: "I haven't got to work, and I shall get my food and shelter." That is not.... That is a false enjoyment. Outside the prison, that is enjoyment. If one thinks that "I don't have to work; let me go to the prison house." Father wants that the sons should live in the family, but sometimes the son leaves the family and wants to enjoy independently. So he suffers.
Hari-śauri: They want to enjoy for themselves.
Prabhupāda: You cannot enjoy. What you cannot enjoy if there is no water, if there is no sunshine and there is no trees, there is no.... Then how you can enjoy? This is given by father. You are already enjoying the father's property. Why you are so much ungrateful?
Hari-śauri: They haven't yet understood that the supply will be restricted if they don't behave.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be. That.... They must wait for the day.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Bad way, good way, man proposes, God disposes. You want something, bad or good.... Actually, everything is bad. This body or the fish's body or the dog's body, that is all material body. So everything is bad. But I prefer to get the body of a human being or a dog or a fish or a bird. That is my choice. So God gives you that body. Everywhere God's mercy is there, because whatever you want, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). In the material world, you have come to enjoy. You cannot enjoy. You are thinking.... Just like child. He's playing with something for sometime, again taking another thing, again taking another thing, childish. So similarly we want to enjoy this material world. Sometimes I am thinking it will be convenient if I get a man's body, it will be convenient if I get a tiger's body, it will be convenient if I get a fish's body.
Hari-śauri: We used to tell them that in Melbourne, but they said "Leave them alone 'cause we want to enjoy them." They said that they're in their gardens for their own enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: They have no idea that why the flowers are taken. It is not for our enjoyment, for your enjoyment. When your flowers will be accepted by Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy.
Jayādvaita: It's a little difficult to explain afterwards. Instead of explaining before, that "Can we take," they would take and then explain.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that you have to manage. That is preaching. What you'll do? I have seen that garden. There are lemons, apples; they are rotting and falling down. So while they can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, why don't you give it? (break) ...too hot. At night, of course, it is not hot. They lie down in open place like this on a cot. Very pleasing sleeping.
Prabhupāda: This yantra, this vehicle, this body, is given to him: "Yes, now you can eat anything, up to stool." And he is very pleased. He wanted it. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He does not hesitate or feel any inconvenience. God is there, even within the heart of the pig, "My dear pig, you wanted a body like this. You have now got it, now eat, here is stool. You eat." And he enjoys. So the living entity within this material world, he wanted to enjoy, "I am the monarch of all I survey." So God gives him all facility: "Whatever you want, you do." Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad yoni-janmasu. He wanted it, therefore he gets different types of body. That is transmigration. But still He comes and teaches, "Rascal, why you are suffering in this way? Give up this plan; surrender to Me immediately." But he is making plan only. Just like in your country, there is everything opulent.
Prabhupāda: This is not wanted. He is spirit. He has nothing to do with this material world, but he wanted it. Or the real thing is that he wanted to enjoy by becoming the master. He is servant... Sometimes servants desire it that "Why I become servant? Why not master?" That is natural. But the natural position is he is servant. If he remains servant of Kṛṣṇa, then he's happy always. But because he desired to become master, so he cannot become master in the spiritual world, because in the spiritual world the master is one. So he is given the chance, "All right, go to the material world and become a master." But that is a falldown. So he's trying struggle for existence, and everyone is trying to become master. Even one is in this spiritual knowledge that "I am spirit soul," still he's trying to become master. That is Māyāvāda. They have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, but I am the supreme Brahman." The same disease is there—master.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag(?)... So that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created.
Rūpānuga: Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina.
Prabhupāda: Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ.
Prabhupāda: It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So actually it is not my body, it is Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Kṛṣṇa has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines.
Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Kṛṣṇa's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Kṛṣṇa, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. Find out this verse.
Vipina: We also say that Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Kṛṣṇa, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is māyā it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.
Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.
Prabhupāda: No, you wanted to enjoy-enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.
Prabhupāda: But it is useless waste of time. The sooner they give up all these attempts, they become saner. (break)... it is said it is simply waste of time. Yato āyur vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting time, valuable life.
Rāmeśvara: But the natural instinct is to want to enjoy varieties...
Prabhupāda: That is material life. The material life means falsely he's thinking that he'll be happy by material adjustment. That is material life. Falsely he's thinking. He'll never be happy, but they are thinking like that. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). Durāśayā means this hope will never be fulfilled. That is called durāśayā, a hope which is not going to be successful at any time. And throughout the whole history they have tried, the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Egyptian Empire, so many they tried, but all failed. Napoleon, Hitler, but still they have no eyes to see. From the history you see, everything failed. Napoleon started with some ideal, conquering all over Europe, and at last he had to die drinking horse urine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the question should be, "I want to enjoy. Why I am suffering?" Then you will have to mold your real life.... Then you'll enjoy. And that is spiritual knowledge.
Mike Robinson: I see. Can you explain to me, then, perhaps finally, just some of the stages you go through in this spiritual life. Sort of, from somebody being a new devotee to Hare Kṛṣṇa, what are the mental or the spiritual stages you go through?
Prabhupāda: As they follow the principles, they realize that "Yes, I am advancing," Otherwise, why they should stick? They are also educated, they are young men, and they are coming from respectable family. They are not dull-headed dogs. So why they are sticking to this principle unless they feel, "Yes, I am making progress"? Just like you are hungry, and if you are given some foodstuff, you eat the.... With every morsel of food you feel, "Yes, my hunger is satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entities. "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting. It is all God's property. He doesn't interfere. "All right, enjoy." This is renouncement. His property, He does not come to interfere. God knows how this universe is made. So many big, big scientists, they are trying to understand what is the constitution, how this universe is made, how it is created. Nobody knows, but He knows.
Prabhupāda: "Whatever you have got, that is from Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You cannot say the kāma is independent. That's not fact. It is coming from Kṛṣṇa. (break) Ahaṁ sarvasya, sarvasya, you'll have take kāma also, everything, everything is coming. As Kṛṣṇa says everything, kāma is also coming from Him. In another place Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). It cannot be independent. The kāma-haitukam, the man and woman, lusty desire, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. You cannot finish the subject matter simply kāma-haitukam. Wherefrom this kāma came? Kṛṣṇa answers that. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. What is that? Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is situated in both the boy's and the girl's heart. So Kṛṣṇa is giving, "You wanted to enjoy, now here is opportunity, you take it." Then Kṛṣṇa becomes cause. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam. "You wanted, you have got, here is. You wanted a young boy-here is." Mattaḥ smṛtiḥ.
Prabhupāda: That is our proposal. We are not that so-called renouncer that as soon as there is money my face becomes deformed, my hands go this way. No, we capture immediately and spend it (indistinct) for Kṛṣṇa. Lakṣmī, Lakṣmī is to be engaged in the service of Nārāyaṇa. Just like Sītā-devi, Lakṣmī she is meant for serving Nārāyaṇa, Rāmacandra. Rāvaṇa thought that "Take away the Lakṣmī from Rāma." He became vanquished, finished. He could not keep Lakṣmī but he became vanquished because she (he) wanted to enjoy Lakṣmī without Rāma. But Lakṣmī cannot stay without Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. That is false attempt. So he became vanquished, with money, with family, everything, personal, everything. So if we want to keep Lakṣmī without Nārāyaṇa, then it will not be very good. Lakṣmī keep with Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa, there will be... (end)
Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for... That is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished: "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body.
Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food... As human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig.
Prabhupāda: Mā prekṣiṣṭhāstava yadi sakhe bandhu-saṅge 'sti raṅgaḥ. If you want to enjoy the company of your society, friendship, and love, then don't see. It will be finished. For this reason they are now bringing charges against us that we are spoiling these young men by brainwash. There is great opposition in the United States to our movement that we are spoiling these young men by giving some speculation, controlling over their mind, and simply injecting some ideas in their brain, brainwash.
Mr. Saxena: (Hindi conversation)
Prabhupāda: Who said this?
Mr. Saxena: I don't remember.
Prabhupāda: Then it is very popular phrase.
Vāsughoṣa: They are also misers. They want to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: No, misers, I say rascals, fools and rascals. That's all. That is their real position, mūḍha. Mūḍha. This very word is used in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal, ass. Asses. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is mūḍha, ass. He is not human being. If you are intelligent enough, by seeing this flower you must admit there is God. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam: "Mūḍha, rascals, they cannot understand that I am behind everything." Come here. Who has manufactured this flower?
Young man: God.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Why? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. He's associating with the different modes of material of nature, infecting, and that is the cause one is born as demigod, one is born as dog, one is born as tree, one is born as human being. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Therefore we should associate with sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu, asate vilāsa, te karaṇe lāgi more, karma bandha phāṇsa. Because we have given up sat-saṅga-oṁ tat sat-Kṛṣṇa's saṅga, we are entangled in this asat-saṅga. And that is the cause of my karma-bandha phāṇsa. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu, asate vilāsa: "I wanted to enjoy with asat." Asato mā sad gamaya. Therefore I'm entangled.
Dr. Patel: Sat-saṅga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that śāstras, also is a sat-saṅga.
Prabhupāda: But reading... By reading, you cannot understand. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). That is also vidhilīn: "In order to understand that science, he must go to guru."
Hari-śauri: "Most of the gopīs in their previous lives were very great sages, expert in the study of the Veda, and when Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared as Lord Rāmacandra they wanted to enjoy with Him. Lord Rāmacandra gave them the benediction that their desires would be fulfilled when He would appear as Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the desire of the gopīs to enjoy the appearance of Lord Kṛṣṇa was long cherished. So they approached goddess Katyāyanī to have Kṛṣṇa as their husband. There are so many other circumstances also which testify to the Supreme authority of Kṛṣṇa and show that He is not bound to the rules and regulations of the material world. In special cases He acts as He likes to favor His devotees. This is only possible for Him because He is the supreme controller. People in general should follow the instructions of Lord Kṛṣṇa as given in Bhagavad-gītā and should not even imagine imitating Lord Kṛṣṇa in the rasa dance."
Guest (1): In our original language, in Oriya, there is a book, preface of the book Mahā-vandanā. This is written by...
Prabhupāda: Mahā-vandanā is a fact. That is all right. But it is meant for the liberated soul.
Hari-śauri: They're just envious of Kṛṣṇa, anyway. They're envious because they want to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: That is the cause, that they're criticizing. They're envious.
Gargamuni: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all. The envious man can say anything.
Gargamuni: That I notice when they say that. I can notice their envy.
Prabhupāda: But still Kṛṣṇa is being worshiped. Here is Jagannātha, Kṛṣṇa. Millions of people have come to worship. You are rascal. You may criticize. It doesn't affect Kṛṣṇa's respectful position.
Gargamuni: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although Kṛṣṇa's life may have been controversial, still, He was very strict sannyāsī.
Prabhupāda: He never criticized Kṛṣṇa. Rather, He was enjoying Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs.
Prabhupāda: No, you talk amongst yourselves everything. And you are all GBC. Tell, "This is not good." They should have kīrtana here. They should go to the city, kīrtana party. People should know that there is... Something is going to be done. Actually they want to enjoy that sea bathing. They're going here and there. That is their business. That is not preaching. That is sense enjoyment. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) That is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Why there should be discrimination, "Not here, not there"? He wants in every village and every town. How you can discriminate? Wherever possible, you should start.
Satsvarūpa: How is all the money for construction for this temple supposed to come? By the local preaching by Gaura-Govinda or...
Prabhupāda: He cannot make any comment. These are facts. Two parties there were. One party, to use guru as their instrument for self-aggrandizement, and another party left guru. So both of them are offenders. This Kunja Babu, this Tīrtha Mahārāja's party, he wanted to enjoy senses through guru. And the Bagh Bazaar party, they left.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva.
Prabhupāda: So both of them are severe offenders.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Śrīdhara Mahārāja?
Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja belonged to the Bagh Bazaar party. And I was living aloof. My Guru Mahārāja approved. He said, "It is better that he is aloof from them."
Prabhupāda: There are many, many experts from the lower-grade creatures. Ant hill. You are spending so much money for skyscraper building. The ant, they construct big hill as their residential quarters. Where they get their food? Where they get their...? But they are living. This is nature's study. Now you can... So what is this? Āhāra-nidrā. For eating. So for these four principles—eating, sleeping, sex, and defense—everyone knows. But the human society, they have made it a problem. These small ants, they also require those things, but they have no problem. For defense they don't require atomic weapon. They know in their own way how to defend. Cats, dogs, animals—everyone knows. Struggling. Our human society, advanced, means they are perplexed with these problems. The human life was meant for self-realization. That problem left, they have created some problems which the animals can solve in their own way. This is the present society. This political struggle and..., what is their aim, objective? To solve these problems. Nothing more. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4), indriya-prītaye, these four principles, sense gratification. The ant is also struggling. They wanted to enjoy the little sugar in the here. We have driven him. That's a problem. They have to find out somewhere else.
Prabhupāda: More than. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa mattaḥ. Mattaḥ means mad, drunkard, and pramattaḥ means more than mad. So generally people, they have become mad after sense enjoyment. Everyone is busy for sense enjoyment. This is material life. And when they are fed up, no more available, so they become tyāgī-frustration that "Grapes are sour." The jackal jumped over to get the grapes, but when he could not obtain it, then he rejects, "Ah, what is use of the grapes? It is sour." So karmīs, they are pramattaḥ, mad after enjoying, and jñānīs, being fed up, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The world is useless." So this is going on. The karmīs, they want to enjoy this material world, and the jñānīs, they are little advanced. They are... They are fed up, rather. They want to enjoy by becoming one with the Supreme. So there is want. The karmīs want to enjoy this world, and the jñānīs want also. That is demand, mukti. Mukti means to become one with the Supreme Brahman. And the yogis, they want siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti, īśitā... They also want.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He should not have come in touch, in the material qualities. And in Prema-vivarta it is said,
- kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare
- nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
So as soon as he forgets Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy life independently, that is guṇa-saṅga and falls down. It is falldown, this guṇa-saṅga. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte... (BG 13.22). What is that verse?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You know the verse?
Śatadhanya: Which one?
Prabhupāda: You can find out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's from the Gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
| Page Title: | Want to enjoy (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 25 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=88, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 88 |