Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brāhmaṇa, he is kṣatriya, he is vaiśya, he is śūdra, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation.
Varnasrama system (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system"
|"system in the varnasrama"
|"system is called varnasrama"
|"system known as varnasrama"
|"system of the varnasrama"
|"system of varna and asrama"
|"system of varnasrama"
|"system there is varnasrama-dharma"
|"system"
|"varna and asrama system"
|"varnasrama system"
|"varnasrama"
|"varnasrama-dharma system"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—and four divisions of spiritual life—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—they are known as āśrama. Anyone can understand āśrama. As soon as there is āśrama that means "Here some men, saintly persons, spiritually advanced persons, lives."
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.
Prabhupāda: This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma. (break) So have you seen this little, how we are translating this? You can see little.
Prof. Kotovsky: But you know what is interesting to... It is the opinion of some European and old, old Russian scholars, this varṇāśrama system...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky:...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old sūtras, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society. And there is an opinion that this varṇāśrama system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... (break)...human estimations. (laughs) As many brains, as many estimations...
Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body.
Prof. Kotovsky: Generally it seems to me that this old varṇāśrama system to some extent practiced the nature of division of labor in ancient society. So now division of labor among people in any society is much more complicated and sophisticated. So it would be very...
Prabhupāda: Not complicated.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because...
Prabhupāda: The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a brāhmaṇa, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be brāhmaṇa, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as brāhmaṇa.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Nitāi: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varṇāśrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...
Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra.
Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.
Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.
Prabhupāda: In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Those who are pure devotees—avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11)—such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.
Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching. And so that they could fully concentrate on that, they were not engaged in working for food and money. But what happened in this age, was that the higher caste became fallen, and they misused their high position, and instead of helping everyone by their teaching, they misused the position, or exploited the position, simply for selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the...
Prabhupāda: Vested interest.
Prabhupāda: No. That is a very good idea, but the leg is also required. If you simply keep the head and there is no leg, then it is incomplete. Everything is required. To keep the body fit you require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require leg. That is the system of varṇāśrama-dharma. In India you have heard that there is a class, brāhmaṇa. Now it is now broken. But this is the Vedic civilization, that one class of men should be the brāhmaṇas, first class. One class of man should be kṣatriya, the administrators, politicians. One class of man should be food producer, vaiśya. And one class of man should be laborer, who has no brain but he can assist the other three.
Jayatīrtha: Dr. Gerson would like to publish a book that would be accepted by the scholarly circles so that they would see that our school and our varṇāśrama system is very good for mankind.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Because one of the main arguments against the movement is that we are crazy. So Dr. Gerson, it is his specialty in determining who is sane and who is crazy, and according to his observation, the devotees here are more sane than...
Prabhupāda: So kindly write one book, at least small book, supporting this movement. That will be great service. Actually this should be supported by all sane men, it is so nice. And practically, you see, Dr. Judah has admitted that "You have converted drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and servant of humanity." That he has written, that who likes us.
Prabhupāda: And making trade. That is going on.
Brahmānanda: So this is the varṇāśrama system that you are...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: That's the varṇāśrama system?
Prabhupāda: That is different thing only.
Harikeśa: O.K.
Prabhupāda: Lat.... First of all, this is the problem.
Harikeśa: First to find out the problem...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: ...and discuss the problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is dialectic. So you can write dialectic spiritualism.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ISKCON is not going to be social reformer, but as far as possible, we can help. Our main business is how to make everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our business. We cannot take up, but if possible, we can take up all the system of varṇāśrama.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If varṇāśrama is neglected, then how can there be proper functioning of society?
Prabhupāda: No. If the society chants Hare Kṛṣṇa seriously, then it is all right. Never mind whatever is done. It doesn't matter. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is the power of hari-saṅkīrtana. If one is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all benefit is there. So long in the bodily concept of life, we require this varṇāśrama-dharma. Otherwise there is no necessity.
Prabhupāda: There is no such word as Hindu religion. You do not know. There is no such word as Hindu religion, at least in the Vedas. The religion is translated into Sanskrit as "characteristic." Religion is not a kind of faith. Just like chemical composition. Sugar is sweet—that is religion. Sugar must be sweet. Sugar cannot be pungent. Or chili must be pungent. If chili is sweet, we reject it, and sugar is pungent, you reject it. Similarly, our Vedic system is to train the human being to the ultimate goal of his life. That system is called varṇāśrama-dharma, gradually training the person how to become perfect human being and understand the goal of his life. That is our activity. It is not meant for any particular sect or particular nation. No. It is meant for the whole human society, how to make them perfect in the goal of his life.
Reporter: "What is that training process?" Prabhupāda: "That training is the varṇāśrama-dharma, a system of dividing society into four social and four spiritual orders according to people's natural quality. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be one nation under God."
Reporter: "But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?"
Prabhupāda: "No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg, but when I tell the hand, 'Bring a glass of water,' the leg will help. The leg is required and the hand is required."
Prabhupāda: The accusation is not correct. They are not lazy. They are busy for higher subject matter. And that busy-ness is so important that Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "Beginning from the childhood," kaumāra ācaret prājño (SB 7.6.1). Not lose a second time. So that is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varṇāśrama system. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). How to realize Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varṇāśrama. In another place it is said, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17).
Prabhupāda: But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varṇāśrama-dharma. That is... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says mayā sṛṣṭam. "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it?
Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that.
Prabhupāda: So actually this varṇāśrama system is meant for bringing the man in the lower status of life to the higher status of life. It doesn't matter one is born in a low-grade family. That is also said by Kṛṣṇa: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yoni, lower grade. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). In the human society, woman, the vaiśya and the śūdra, they are considered in the lower status, not very intelligent. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. They can also become... So in the Western countries, according to Vedic calculation, they are mlecchas, yavanas, low grade. But Kṛṣṇa says ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, "He can also be elevated, to that extent as he can go back to home, back to Godhead."
Interviewer: The almost the whole world, and all civilizations, look down upon the varṇāśrama-dharma as a system in which hierarchical and stratified conditions prevent human beings from progressing. They think of our system as...
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is progress. That I was talking with your Associated Press, press reporter. Just like they do not know that their material life means they are in the prison house for being punished. They are so dull headed they are taking the activities of punishment as regular life. A man is put into the prison house, and his engagement is breaking the bricks. So he has forgotten that "This breaking of bricks is not my business. I am meant for living freely outside the prison house."
Hari-śauri: The varṇāśrama system. It's very good.
Prabhupāda: This instruction of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time.
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our books daily sixty thousand dollars. All over the world.
Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hari-śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas, Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?
Hari-śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, yes.
Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?
Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.
Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg.
Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...
Prabhupāda: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."
Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.
Prabhupāda: If you can introduce this system, varṇāśrama, then it will establish. No more change. This is a rascal's government, this democracy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Demoncracy."
Prabhupāda: "Demoncracy."
Hari-śauri: "Demon-crazy."
Prabhupāda: "Demon-crazy." (laughter) Demon and crazy. Not only demon... There are demons whose brain is all right, but they are crazy also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) Demon-crazy.
Prabhupāda: When they are diseased, they take care of the body. Of course, it is not that we should not take care. But that is superficial. Real care should be taken of the soul within the body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehinaḥ, dehī. Dehinaḥ and deha. So anyone who is identifying with this body in either... According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us.
Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme-useless. Sāttvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam... From Brahma-saṁhitā?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam.
Bhavānanda: Oh, yes. We're training up those who have children... They're trained in the varṇāśrama system. Some of the children in the school have a scholastic bent of mind, so they're educated in Sanskrit and higher studies. Some of them have a vaiśya bent of mind, and they work in the gośāla helping to develop..., milk the cows. Some are... Their parents are working in the handloom. They also have that desire, so they're trained to be handloomers. In this way we will be able to develop a city of fifty thousand devotees.
Śrī Bajaj: Let us not overstrain him and whatever if... He'll feel tired.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.
| Page Title: | Varnasrama system (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 22 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=34, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 34 |