Prabhupāda: Yes, Prahlada Maharaja said. Yes. About this body. It is arrangement, according to different body. Now, these swans, they have left this, defending, they're going away. This is defending only. Yes. And as soon as they're on the water, they think, "Oh, we are safe because these rascals cannot come in the water." (laughter) They are thinking about us "rascals." As we are thinking about them that they are lower animals, so they are also thinking, "These are rascals." Just like some father rebukes a son, the son also thinks of the father as rascal, "Unnecessarily he's chastising me." There is a proverb that as the child grows... (break) ...also thinks that "This boy is a fool; he'll do wrong by..." This is stated. And the child is stated in a different way. Just like sometimes our audience also. When we speak they think, "What nonsense he's speaking. Oh, Kṛṣṇa, what is this Kṛṣṇa? Let us enjoy." They are not purified. So this Prahlada Mahārāja says that according to the body, the specific facilities of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is already arranged. It is already arranged. So one hasn't got to learn. Just like for mating. There is no college or school where in the classroom dis..., that "This is way you have to mate." Everyone knows automatically. Everyone knows how to mate automatically. Nobody is taught how to laugh. Oh, when laughing comes, it, automatically one laughs. Nobody's taught how to cry. Everyone cries when there is some distress. So these things, what is wanted as the necessity of my body, so arrangement is there. But because we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, you think that "We can do something." Therefore we take advantage of our high intelligence to defend ourselves more nicely, to have mating more nicely, or eating more nicely. And a devotee should be satisfied that whatever Kṛṣṇa arranged, that's all right. That Kṛṣṇa prasādam we will take. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has kindly sent, let me be satisfied with this. They do not want more than that. Similarly, "Kṛṣṇa has sent me this woman as my wife, oh, let me be satisfied with that." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that He's pleased to send me such foodstuff,
Unnecessarily (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: If you are religious, really, actually, a man of religiosity, then your money is not for sense gratification, as we are teaching our boys. They are working hard, they are getting money and they are spending for Kṛṣṇa. You see? Because they have understood that "My energy spent for Kṛṣṇa's cause is really utilized. And if I utilize my energy for sense gratification, then I am cats and dogs." So nārthasya. If you get money... You must get money. But it is not meant for sense gratification. "Then what is the, it is meant? We have got senses. We have to satisfy it." Yes. You have to satisfy it, but not for enjoyment. As far as you require it. You require fooding. Yes, for maintaining your body. Not for satisfying the tongue. "This, I want to eat this, I want to eat that, I want to eat that." No. Eat something. Just maintain your body. That's all. You sleep just to keep yourself fit to work. Not that sleeping for twelve hours, fourteen hours. No. Six, seven, utmost eight. That's all. Then eating, sleeping, defending. That's also required. Defend yourself. Not to encroach upon other's property. Just like Hitler sending soldiers in others' country. Why? You defend your own country. That's all right. You defend your home. That is not prohibited. The śāstra allows it. If somebody comes to encroach upon your property, you kill him immediately. That is said. But not kill unnecessarily. Just like Arjuna was taught, "Kill them. They have insulted your wife, they have encroached upon your property. They must be killed." That is allowed. But you don't be aggressive. So ahāra-nidrā-bhaya, and sex, sex life. Yes. Just get yourself married and have sex life only for children. Not for other purposes. So kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ. Kāma means we have got some demands of the body. That is called kāma or lust. So that does not mean that we have to gratify the senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be some relation. Without relationship one cannot exist because he is part and parcel. Just like persons in the prison house. They are not out of government. There is relationship with the government, but that is indirect. The criminals, they do not appreciate the service of the government. Government is bothered about his existence. Some extra... Instead of receiving some service from him to the state, the state has got to spend unnecessarily for him. That is a botheration. So those who are in indirect relationship with Kṛṣṇa, they are botheration. They are simply giving trouble to Kṛṣṇa, but there is relationship.
Hayagrīva: Is the humorous direct or indirect? One in humor?
Prabhupāda: Humor, humor is practically in every direct relationship. And indirect also, there is humor. "I am thinking of you as enemy"—that is also another type of humor. (Chuckles) Yes.
Pradyumna: Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva souls also when they are...
Prabhupāda: Everything for jīva souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly. Jīva soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God," "There is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship. Anyone, so-called spiritualist or transcendentalist, if he is claiming that "There is no God," "I am God," "There is voidness," these are all disturbing positions, different symptoms of this disease of māyā. It is disease. How one can think of, that he is God? That means he does not know what is God. If I say here that "I am President Nixon," would you accept it? Would you accept? Any one of you, if I say that "I am President Nixon," will you accept? Why? Why? Why? Why you do not accept me? I say, "I am President Nixon." Why do you not accept? Why?
Allen Ginsberg: Aha. What was the conclusion of Śaṅkarācārya?
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya's conclusion was to defeat Buddhism. They do not know it, but actually, when there was too much animal-killing and people became almost atheist under the shadow of Vedic rituals, Lord Buddha appeared. He wanted to stop men from the sinful activities of killing unnecessarily under the plea of Vedas. So he invented that ahiṁsa, nonviolence. And... Because people will give evidence, "Oh, in the Vedas there is..." They are not following, actually, the Vedic rituals, but just like crooked lawyers take advantage of law books, similarly... Therefore, Lord Buddha said that "I do not follow Vedic rituals. I have nothing to do with Vedas. It is my own formula." So Jayadeva has written one prayer because the Vaiṣṇavas can understand how God is playing. So he writes, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ: "My dear Lord, now You have appeared as Lord Buddha. You are decrying the Vedic rituals." Śruti-jātaṁ. Śruti-jātaṁ means Vedic. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam: "You are so much compassionate to see poor animals being killed unnecessarily." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare: "All glories to Jagadīśa. You have now assumed the form of Lord Buddha, and You are playing in pastimes." So Lord Buddha is accepted as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. In Bhāgavata also it is stated. He is accepted as the tenth incarnation.
Allen Ginsberg: Ah. Who was nine?
Prabhupāda: Nine was Baladeva. Baladeva, Kṛṣṇa's elder brother Balarāma.
Allen Ginsberg: Then Buddha is one possible tenth.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Labor of love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You love something and unnecessarily you labor. So religion means... This is religion, how to develop love of God. That is religion.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also there is a story in the Bhāgavatam about the girls; they were offering to Lord Śiva.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another feature of Lord Caitanya. He taught in that instruction that there is no need of worshiping demigods. The incident is that in India the unmarried girls, they are encouraged to worship Lord Śiva especially in the month of Vaiśākha, March-April. And they will go to the Ganges side and prepare Śivaliṅga, and they'll... That means Śiva will be pleased upon them to offer a husband like Lord Śiva. Śiva is very peaceful and very great devotee and most powerful at the same time. So that is the ideal husband. So they brought worshipable paraphernalia for worshiping Śiva on the bank of the Ganges, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as naughty boy, approached them. "Oh, my dear sister, what you are doing? Oh, you have brought so many nice things. Give it to Me, and Lord Śiva will be very much pleased. Oh, you are worshiping Durga? She is My maidservant and Lord Śiva is a great devotee of Me. So you please offer Me all these things; they will be satisfied. You don't require to offer separately." By this, He wanted to instruct that worshiping the Supreme Lord is the appeasement of other demigods. You don't require to appease them separately. This instruction. Then some girls will hesitate. Then He will curse them that "You'll be married with an old man having seven children by his former wife." So they will be afraid, "Oh, maybe this boy is cursing..." Then out of fear they'll offer. Then He said, "Oh, you'll have a very nice young husband and you'll have seven children by him." In this way it was going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya is always doing this on a planet in the material, some material universe? These girls... All of these pastimes are eternal pastimes.
Prabhupāda: Hm? No. These are not eternal pastimes. They are instructive particularly for this planet. In the eternal Vaikuṇṭha, Lord Caitanya is engaged in chanting and dancing. That's all.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: He does not know what is sādhu. He is not sādhu. He is gṛhastha. I have got many professors, engineers. So they are Kṛṣṇa-bhaktas. Are they not sādhus? The rascal does not know; that sādhu means beggar, he knows. Arjuna became a sādhu. He was a beggar? So he does not know what is sādhu. Sadhu's description is given, bhajate mām ananya...
Guest (1): This particular letter is written by a woman. It is unnecessarily pushing the...
Prabhupāda: So it should be replied properly, that "You do not know what is sādhu. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you bother yourself?" Just like one, this Jain paper has published that "Swami Bhaktivedantaji says that 'Kṛṣṇa is everything; Hinduism is nothing.' " So anyone who says Kṛṣṇa is everything, he is not Hindu. Just see. Such foolishness. Go on.
Haṁsadūta: So... "The sādhus will have to live on alms given by others and will have to forego many of their luxurious personal needs. The coming years are therefore going to create for Uncle Sam a national problem of magnitude..."
Prabhupāda: You, already problem.
Haṁsadūta: "...the like of which he has not seen before."
Prabhupāda: What...? What they are doing for the hippies? In U.S.A. they have thousands of hippies. They are doing nothing. That problem is already there. Go on.
Haṁsadūta: "It will create a national problem of a magnitude the like of which he has not seen before. In fact, Western society is in for a great jolt. A. Karim Saikh.(?)" Then two more letters.
Prabhupāda: What about? Favorable or unfavorable?
Haṁsadūta: It was an interview with the devotees, if I remember, with Gurudāsa.
Guest (1): The article, original article, was quite favorable. It was all praiseworthy and all that. That is why these two letters say that author of that article is unnecessarily being sentimental and this and that.
Rebatinandan: That was the Sunday edition of Times of India.
Haṁsadūta: November 8th.
Revatīnandan: The magazine section. Two page particle with nice pictures. You liked it very much.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, yes, yes. I remember. She is envious, that "Why two page advertisement, publicity has been..." That's all.
Haṁsadūta: There's another letter. It says, "Your leading article on the Kṛṣṇa cult makes interesting reading. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the Indian founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, and his American disciples repeatedly told K.R. Sundarajan, the author of the article in the Times Weekly, November 8th, 1970, during their brief stay in Bombay that theirs was not strictly a Hindu movement. They explained to him that Kṛṣṇa was above all religions, the universal teacher, the supreme man, the purification of the Absolute Truth. If it is so, then why can't they go to Pakistan and China for chanting of Kṛṣṇa's name and ask them to vacate aggression? The soil of this land where the great master was born..."
Prabhupāda: Now, now, we have to serve the political, politicians. Eh? Because they cannot do, so they are asking us.
Haṁsadūta: To do.
Prabhupāda: Self-preservation. So self-preservation... They do not know what is self-preservation. That is another ignorance. They consider this body as the self. Their self-preservation means to keep this body. And that is also not possible. If you do not follow regulative principles, it is not possible to keep your body in good condition. That is also not possible. Those who do not follow the regulative principles, mostly they are diseased, some kind. We find in the medical, modern medical shop the customers are educated people. Mass of people, they are not customers in the medical shop. You'll find it. They are not so much diseased. In every gentleman's house, modern, you'll find so many bottles of medicine. But you won't find such medical bottles in any house of less educated persons. They are not so diseased. So this is one of the items. If you want to advance in spiritual life you must follow the regulative principles to rectify your mistakes in the past life and this present life. Without being freed from all contamination nobody can understand God. That is not possible. Bhagavad-gītā says, yeṣāṁ anta gataṁ pāpaṁ: "One who has become completely freed from all kinds of sinful reaction," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, "Persons who are engaged in pious activities only," te, "such person," te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā... (BG 7.28). This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva and moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion. What is that illusion? Accepting this body as self. So if one is contaminated by sinful activity—if he is in illusion, how he can..., illusion of accepting this body as self—what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on. No. One must follow. Meditation, yogic meditation, is also possible when there is yama, niyama, āsana, praṇāyāma—the eight principles of yoga system. And nobody follows the eight principles of yoga system and simply sitting down and meditating, that will not help.
Prabhupāda: That is the primary principle. Nāstika means one who does not believe in the Vedas. He is called nāstika. Not that he does not believe in God. One may believe in God, but one who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is called nāstika. Veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika. Lord Buddha, although he is accepted as incarnation of God, but because he defied the Vedic principles it is said, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ. Lord Buddha criticized the, I mean to say, sacrificial ceremonies because in the sacrificial ceremonies sometimes there is recommendation of killing an animal. But he was preaching nonviolence. So he criticized even the sacrifice in yajña. He criticized. Nindasi... But a Vaiṣṇava is praying, "My dear Lord, you are defying the Vedic principles." He knows why the Lord is now defying the Vedic principles; therefore he is devotee. In spite of Lord Buddha's defying the Vedic principles, a devotee is offering him obeisances. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He knows the Lord, how He is playing, how He is bewildering the atheistic class of men. The atheistic class of men did not believe in God. Lord Buddha says, "Yes, you don't require to believe in God. There is no God. But you feel yourself that when you are attacked with violence you feel pain. Why should you offer to others?" Because his mission was to stop animal killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam. The Supreme Lord became too much compassionate when he saw that people are unnecessarily killing animals, as it is going on still. Instead of... At least those who are claiming Buddhist, they are killing animals. Bruce, is it not? Yes. But in the Buddhist religion there is no sanction for killing animals. Yes?
Guest (2): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: How He can be dead? How you can think of like that, that God is dead? That is foolishness.
Guest (1): If you say God is dead, that means you are... that is your own ignorance.
Prabhupāda: So we are fighting against this ignorance, so many ignorance. And at the present moment so many theories and religious principles have sprung up unnecessarily. You see? But we are sticking to the principle that the only religion is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is real religion: surrender.
Guest (1): Complete surrender.
Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. That is real religion. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityjya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These are Kṛṣṇa's words. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Prapadyate—that is surrender. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). These words are there.
Guest (1): I like only the last ślokas... (indistinct)... where Lord Kṛṣṇa analyzes and... (indistinct) ...but to bring your mind and ātmā together that process is called yoga.
Prabhupāda: But you know that Kṛṣṇa said, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā: (BG 6.47) "Of all the yogis, one who is always thinking of Me within his mind, he is first-class." Do you accept this?
Guest (1): Of all the yoginām?
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (laughs) The servant was crying, "Oh! I am dying, I am dying, I am dying." So I immediately called ambulance and took her to the hospital. Then, when I went there, there were so many neophyte doctors. They experimented, and they said, "Immediate operation is required." "Why?" They gave us some technical terms. Then their leader doctor came. He said, "All right. Let us see this night. Then, next morning, we shall operate." So I asked him, "I can go? He may remain in your charge?" "Yes." So I went, came back. And when I was absent, another servant of the neighbor, he told to my wife, that "Babuji..." Babuji means master. "...it is unnecessarily he has taken to hospital. He was drunk, and he was crying like that. (laughter) He drank." So my wife told that he was drunk, and he was therefore crying like that. "No, no. Doctor says that it is a serious case (laughter) and it is to be operated." And the next morning the servant came back. "And why you come back? You were to be operated?" "Oh, thik hai. It is now all right." Just see. The rascals were going to operate. He was drunk. In drunken state he was crying, and they took it a case of operation. That is my practical experience. Everything you take there: "Operation."
Devotee (1): That's a symptom of the modern civilization, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Operation. That is... Demons are to be cheated like that. Simply operation. Simply operation. Bas.
Devotee (2): Also they're trying to get money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Injection and operation. That is in their hands.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we try to avoid getting injections as much as possible?
Prabhupāda: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this?
Sister Mary: Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian...
Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh?
Haṁsadūta: Animal.
Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk, we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life. Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: There was monarchy, the kings were very responsible. Therefore, the kings were known as rājarṣi. Rājarṣi, rāja ṛṣi, rājarṣi, this is compound word. (indistinct) king supervising the administration of the state, still his character was just like a ṛṣi, (indistinct) great sage. That was the qualification of the king. Therefore... Also Vedic civilization, even up to Maharaja Parīkṣit, the government was monarchy. At the present moment, practically all monarchical state is abolished. Even there is some monarchy... Formerly... (indistinct) just like in England, the Queen, she is powerless. Actually, the Queen has no power. People have taken away the power. Here also there is the (indistinct) Jaipur. Actually, they are the owner of the state, Jaipur state, the old state, at least five hundred years old, this state. (indistinct) It is the kingdom of Maharaja Mansingh, former Mansingh, who was commander-in-chief of emperor (indistinct).
But now they have no power. The people have taken away the power. But according to Vedic civilization, this people's government is not sanctioned. Democracy. Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to the śūdras. So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power? We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested... Formality. So they put their manifesto before the election, that we shall serve you in this way and that way. But because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power...
Just like recently there was fight between two political parties, and represented by two big men, Viśvanātha Dās and Hare Kṛṣṇa Mahatattva. Both of them learned men, lawyers, but they are fighting like cats and dogs. So formerly therefore, there was no such thing as democracy. A king, there must be one king responsible. But he was guided by the ministers and learned brāhmaṇas, sages. There was a body to guide him, to train him. Therefore, the monarchical government was perfect. Now here is a story of Vena Maharaja. His father was very (indistinct) it is usual, very nice king. But his son, this Vena, born of a bad mother, he was not good. He was killing unnecessarily animal, even men, because he was prince. So he would play with his friends and if there is any fault on the part of his friends, he will at once kill. And because he was prince, son of the king, nobody could take any steps. So the king was very much perturbed within his mind how to train this boy to become future king. But he was not successful. He was not successful. Therefore, being too much depressed and disgusted, he left home. He left home, let the things take place as it is.
Prabhupāda: So all the great sages and saintly persons, brāhmaṇas, they assembled together and began to consider, "Now what to be done? This rascal king has declared like this and making things hellish, what to do?"
This is the problem of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that people are becoming more and more Godless. And one may think that unnecessarily we have taken this responsibility to make them God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no need to make this propaganda all over the world. But actually, the saintly persons have concern. Just like the other day I told you, Prahlāda Maharaja was concerned that these rascals for temporary so-called... (break) ...people are engaged unnecessarily to work very hard day and night, the capitalist, the worker. Big, big factory, iron factory, in so many factories, unnecessarily. So Prahlāda Maharaja was concerned. He was living, his father was a demon, in the demonic state. So this is natural. If one saintly person do not be disturbed by people's unhappiness, he is not saintly person. He is not saintly person. If he is simply satisfied that "I have got a temple, I am getting good income, let me eat and sleep." My Guru Maharaja condemned this process. He said that to earn livelihood by showing some temple and collecting money and eat and sleep, better to become a sweeper in the street and earn his livelihood instead of earning livelihood in this so-called spiritual way. So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achar(?), taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. In your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. They're getting money. So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, eat and sleep, and if possible drink also." But, of course, we are restricting.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. That is clearly stated in the śāstras. If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha. But in devotion, there is no karma-bandha. As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāva-manyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāva-manyeta karhicit, "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta, "Never be envious of the ācārya, thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya, he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya, he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent. But if he is criticized, then that man who criticizes, he becomes... Of course, he must be ācārya, not a bogus. Ordinary man cannot transgress the laws, but Kṛṣṇa and His representative, ācārya, might be sometimes seen that he has transgressed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). Vaiṣṇavera kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Vaiṣṇava ācārya, his activities is not understood even by the wisest man. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Ācārya, guru, he is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, being completely freed from all material affection. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Everything... Everyone has got some material desire to fulfill, but a guru or ācārya has no such business. That is the symptom of ācārya. He has no more any material business. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has finished all business of material satisfaction. That is the symptom of ācārya. And śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. And he has taken full bath in the ocean of transcendental (indistinct). Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta (SB 11.3.21), one should surrender to such spiritual master. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, when he is actually serious about inquiring the transcendental subject matter. Otherwise there is no need of accepting guru or ācārya. He has no business. If one is not interested in the transcendental subject matter... Just like so many people come, they have no interest. Unnecessarily they talk and waste time. As soon as I asked that man that "If I say something, whether you will accept?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. About Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the śāstra that Lord Buddha will appear in Gayā Pradesh, in the province of Gayā, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how he is cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don't believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that "Yes, there is no God. You hear me." But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don't believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, "We don't believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha." And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura-dviṣām. Sammohita-sura-dviṣām. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahiṁsā. "Don't kill." That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that "Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities." Lord Buddha appeared... He also appeared in India. Why? He was also Hindu. He was kṣatriya, king. He promulgated this philosophy, ahiṁsā, when there was unnecessary killing of animals. According to Vedas, animal can be killed in sacrifice. That also to give a new life. But people misinterpreted and they began to kill animals like anything with the evidence of..., "In the Vedas animal killing is sanctioned." So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion-ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas." And because he did not care for the Vedas, therefore in India, later on, nobody accepted Buddha philosophy.
Prabhupāda: ...so many assistants. Similarly, God can expand Himself for different... So Lord Buddha appeared to stop animal killing. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. This is Sanskrit. Lord Kṛṣṇa, Keśava, He was very much compassionate on the poor animals. "And now you have appeared as Lord Buddha," buddha-śarīra, "taking the body of Lord Buddha." Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. He was so much compassionate by seeing unnecessarily animal sacrifice. When there was too much animal sacrifice in India, Lord Buddha appeared. And in the Vedas there is recommendation for animal sacrifice in some sacrificial ceremony, not ordinarily. And that sacrifice is meant for testing the power of chanting mantra. An animal would be put into the fire, and it would come again with renewed life. In this way, there is recommendation in the Vedas that some animals... But people misunderstood it. People began to sacrifice, rather, slaughter. At that time Lord Buddha appeared. So we worship Lord Buddha as Kṛṣṇa. You are all Buddhists?
Dai Nippon representative: I am Buddhist.
Prabhupāda: So Buddhist religion I think animal sacrifice is prohibited, or what? Animal killing? What your religion says about animal killing. Stop or not?
Dai Nippon representative: In Buddhism, in my religion, originally it was, prohibited, but now, (laughs) somewhat changed.
Prabhupāda: So you come to again to the original. Yes. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are teaching no animal killing, no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication. All my students, they are strictly following these principles all over the world. They are American, Europeans. So I have got students all over the world. Some of them from Christian, Buddhist also. I have got Japanese, Chinese, my students. Perhaps you have seen one of my students. His name is Bhānu. Formerly what was his name?
Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya is preaching simply this, that you all chant Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, or Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Ei śikhā diyā, sab nadīyā phirche nece' gaura-nitāi. "By teaching this philosophy, the two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, are traveling all over Nadia." Māyār bośe, jāccho bhese', Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi. "Why you are being carried away by the waves of māyā? Why, unnecessarily? And you are being drowned and saved." Jīv kṛṣṇa-dās, e biśwās, korle, "Simply believe that you are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, then all these troubles immediately gone." Bolbe jabe, pulak ha'be, that "If you chant this, then you will feel ecstasy." Rādhā kṛṣṇa bolo, saṅge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā, "So I don't ask you anything. Simply chant and come with me." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Have you got puffed rice? No.
Devotee (2): In the shop. You have to get it from the shop.
Prabhupāda: But I don't think you can get now.
Devotee (1): We could try.
Śyāmasundara: Any stores open?
Devotee (1): I'll go see.
Śyāmasundara: That supermarket?
Devotee (2): It's Easter Sunday.
Devotee (1): There's a little shop, they always carry puffed rice.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A Vaiṣṇava is conservative with Kṛṣṇa and liberal with everybody else.
Prabhupāda: That is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily catching something. That is conservative. If you try to protect your life, will anyone say You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you, and you want to keep your life? Is that conservatism? Do you think?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.
Prabhupāda: And if the murderer thinks that You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you and you did not allow. That is not conservative. That is self-preservation, that is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily you catch some rules and regulation without any meaning or without any utility. That is conservative. In Sanskrit it is called niyamāgraha. (end)
Prabhupāda: There is no Christian. Otherwise there is no difference between Christianity and our philosophy. They're Christian; we're Krishnian. And Christ comes from the word Kṛṣṭa. So if they actually follow the commandments given by Lord Jesus Christ, the world will change, immediately.
Devotee: Is that so...
Prabhupāda: Unnecessarily, false argument. Even Jesus Christ ate meat, you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, our best, I have found that the best argument is, you practice. Proof.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So I shall go? No.
Devotee: A few minutes, I think, 'cause they are still packing.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of these religions have produced a sannyāsī.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of them. A person who is detatched from material life.
Jayādvaita: I was reading in the Bible...
Prabhupāda: No.
Indian man: No (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: No. There the people have a sufficient income. Here the municipality has no income, (indistinct) this all botheration. He cannot stock. Suppose if you want to stock fifty thousand worth paper, unnecessarily you have to pay five percent.
Pañca-draviḍa: Five to ten percent.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Pañca-draviḍa: Five to ten percent.
Prabhupāda: Five to ten percent. Now fifty thousand at five to ten percent, how much? Unnecessarily you have to (indistinct). And to take back that octroi, I have got experience when I was in Allahabad doing business, you know, to take back the octroi, it is hanging. I could not develop my wholesale business due to the octroi. Then I arranged, because I was agent of Dr. Bose's factory. I was disbursing goods direct from Calcutta and sending bill from Allahabad. Octroi botheration I have got experience. You cannot do any large-scale business, the rascal government do not (indistinct) it. Due to this octroi botheration, nobody can do any large-scale business. Either you have to keep your go-down beyond the octroi limit.
Indian man: You can do that.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Confirm the symptoms. If he says: "Yes," then immediately diagnosis is there. And as soon as diagnosis is there, the medicine is there. Simple method. Similarly, astrologers, they will see the constellation of the stars, and then the formula is there. "If this star is now with this star, if that planet is with that planet, then this is the result." So this Āyurvedic astrologer and physician requires little clear brain. Otherwise, very nice. The research work is already there. Just like we are. What is our research? Kṛṣṇa says: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20). "There is another nature." We believe it. We have not gone to another nature. But Kṛṣṇa says: "There is another nature, spiritual nature." This is, this material nature, inferior nature, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), apareyam, this is inferior. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām (BG 7.5). There is another superior nature. What is that? The living force. Who will argue? So we have got very easy method. And because we are receiving all this information from the most perfect, therefore our knowledge is perfect. That's all. And for all these rascals, śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Unnecessarily they're laboring. They cannot come to the right conclusion. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāh. Oh, what is the good quality? If you unnecessarily work without any result, then what is your qualification?
Brahmānanda: Mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, ass. The ass works without any profit. So these are asses. Without coming to the right conclusion, they're working hard, day and night, and spending lots of money. So mūḍhas. (pause) Why the scientists are searching out protons, neutrons? To find out the original cause. So they could not find the original cause. They see the middle work only, how the proton is working, neutron is working, atom is working. But wherefrom this arrangement came? How they are working systematically? They do not know. So what is their science?
Prabhupāda: That's all. Just see how much...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of dollars.
Prabhupāda: How great asses they are.
Karandhara: Billions.
Prabhupāda: You, you work very hard. This rascal government takes taxes and spend unnecessarily. That's all. This is their intelligence. A set of asses. That's all. They have no sympathy "that this hard-earned money is coming from the public, and we are spending like anything." But nobody can check. This is going on. And they're giving another bluff. "Don't worry. I am going another planet."
Brahmānanda: Yeah, right. Another one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "From there, I shall bring more dust."
Brahmānanda: Another future.
Prabhupāda: More dust. Now you have got handful of dust. I'll bring tons of dust. Don't.... And if I... "Oh, yes, now we shall get tons of dust." The rascal does not know, dust is dust, and tons... What is the meaning?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They believe there may be life in Mars planet. So they are very hopeful...
Prabhupāda: If they believe or not believe, what gain there is? Life is here also. You are fighting. This is your program. Here is life also. Here is human being. So suppose there is life. There is life, undoubtedly. But what he'll gain? What is your gain?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're very curious to know what is going on there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Bodily concept of life means animal life. The animal does not know. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and kharaḥ means ass. One who is in the, under bodily concept of life, he is no better than animals. So when the animal talks of knowledge, an intelligent man laughs. That is our position. The animals, they are talking of knowledge.
Paramahaṁsa: At least, the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unless necessary. They only eat when necessary, whereas man, he kills unnecessarily, eats unnecessarily. So forgetting God, we are even lower than animals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we suffer also, more than the animals. (pause) So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a bogus religious sentimental movement. It is a scientific movement. So now it is up to you to prove this. Then you will be actually Kṛṣṇa conscious. (pause) (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they were saying that everything in the universe is just happening by chance.
Prabhupāda: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?
Karandhara: The book is also by chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...
Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the molecules came?
Prabhupāda: What is this culture? A human being is killing so many animals, innocent animals, is that culture? They are less than animals. Who kills? The tiger kills, ferocious. A human being killing innocent animals... In Christian religion, therefore: "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing only. Where is the culture? Killing culture. That is not culture. What do you think?
David Wynne: It must be so. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How a human being can kill another human being or another animal unnecessarily? And if you kill, there is law, life for life. But they have made laws for human beings. When an animal is killed, he's not criminal. But in the God laws you cannot avoid that. If you have killed an ant, you must be shot. That is God's law. You can avoid man-made law, but you cannot avoid God-made law. That you cannot do. You must be responsible. If you kill an ant even without knowledge, you are responsible. Such subtle laws are there. So we must know our responsibility. Without knowledge, if we kill, we are responsible. And with knowledge, there is no question. Where is that culture? They advertise, "Live and let live." What is that? Do they do that? Actually? They want to live at the expense of others. Why not let live others? Where is that culture?
Śyāmasundara: Now there is a famous cinema being shown called "Live and Let Die."
Prabhupāda: That is good culture. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Favorite. Everyone likes it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let others die; you live.
David Wynne: And yet, Arjuna had to fight in the war, didn't he?
Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.
David Lawrence: "2.) to give the teacher all the information," uh, where were we, "he or she may need to find out more than the booklet can include, for example, to satisfy the really interested inquirer, 3.) by a total sense experience, the cultural gap, which may unnecessarily alienate the students and therefore hamper a worthwhile consideration of the movement, 4.) by offering a wide variety of approaches, the student will not feel that he is simply studying another textbook, 5.) a booklet on Kṛṣṇa consciousness without the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra in a living form would be an absurdity, so the contents of the teacher's pack: A.) the forty-five r.p.m. record of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, B.) a glossy poster of Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, C.) a map of the devotional centers of Kṛṣṇa, D.) a list of additional films, filmstrips and records likely to help the student, both from the center and from elsewhere, E.) sample literature from the organization, e.g. Back to Godhead, F.) a pack of Spiritual Sky incense, G.) a filmstrip,"—the enclosure of the filmstrip depends on the costing; R.E. departments are always very poor in this country—"H.) recipes and notes on the meaning of ārati, I.) several sheets of objections to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the rebuttals of these objections, J.) suggestions for the teaching of the subject." Then I've gone on to say a little bit about the structure of the booklet. "Hopefully, the first section would establish the claims of the relevance of the spiritual life in 1973, and then the claims of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to be the true pathway to the eternal. This we would like to do by means of holding up a respected example of somebody who is already walking the path, e.g. an ideal way would be by the examination of the beliefs of George Harrison, and more especially of those expounded on living in the material world." Then go on to the history of the movement: "Lord Caitanya, Śrī Sarasvatī,..." apologies for the way I pronounce the names, "Śrī Prabhupāda's commission to the western world, the growth of ISKCON, the establishment of the London center," you know, to bring it locally, if you like, then on to "a typical devotee, his day..." This, I've said, will help to personalize the whole idea, you know. They can relate to the person concerned with this. Then "a section on the sacred scriptures of the Vedas, a background, and then quotations of frequently used texts. Then onto the beliefs of the devotees, based mainly upon the eight principles of ISKCON, and the Introduction of the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is." Our hopes are to, you know, work very hard from that section because it's, that introduction has got everything. I've been working on it a week, and I think, uh, I've gone back over...
Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Otherwise, beginning from ant, up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.
Reporter: Hm. Vi... But is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. (?)
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Reporter: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān? "Vi—" is generally used as to... a sort of bhaktyā.(?) To give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijñānam, jñānaṁ vijñānam. Karmān vikarmān. So this a little, what is the root of the language? I don't...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit Priest: ...to provide...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes.
Jesuit Priest: You are doing something wrong?
Prabhupāda: We don't cut down trees unnecessarily. Unnecessarily.
Jesuit Priest: No, but, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh... I don't kill...
Prabhupāda: No. But the... I have asked this question to so many people, that "Why you are killing although it is prohibited, 'Thou shall not kill.'?" They cannot give me any satisfactory answer.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I think I've given you one. I'm just thinking in a way...
Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very...
Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not (indistinct) and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different...
Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now...
Jesuit Priest: ...kinds of life.
Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam. But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal?
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Revatīnandana: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, they can be changed. All of us are from meat-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants. We've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life. But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him... I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction.
Popworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what?
Revatīnandana: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said, "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology. No senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the Vedas, is a human birth. So you're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not... An intelligent man who can sense that "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's...
Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, we are discussing this point, that this illusion is going on. But human form of life, a human being can get out of this illusion. We have got sufficient sources of knowledge, especially in the Vedic knowledge. So why do we not take advantage of this knowledge and make our life successful? Yes. That is my proposal. And we are struggling with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement with this purpose only, that these people are missing the point and wasting their time and life unnecessarily under some illusion. To try to save them, that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (break) ...talked with so many Christian priests. Naturally while discussing I asked them that "In your Bible it is said, 'Thou shall not kill.' Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse?" They cannot answer properly. In this way and this way they try to avoid and support this slaughterhouse.
Dr. Inger: It's difficult to answer it.
Prabhupāda: This is going on.
Dr. Inger: When I asked a group of priests at a meeting which was to celebrate the anniversary of a leading Catholic thinker, I.R. Shadder(?), I just asked him about the Sermon on the Mount, referring to similarities between the teachings of Sermon on the Mount and Hindu thought. He says, "You see, but the point is this, that the Sermon on the Mount is not meant for everybody. It is only meant for a very few. And therefore most of us, including the present company," he said, "cannot use it in everyday life." I said, "Do you mean it is only meant for monks?" He hesitated but said, "If you like, yes." But I said, "I imagined that this was meant for everyone and that anyone could follow it." And he said, "Well, it is too dangerous a teaching to give to everyone."
Prabhupāda: He was present five thousand years ago. He came on this planet and gave instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. So that is recorded.
Reporter (1): Why have you written Bhagavad-gītā as it really is? Why?
Prabhupāda: As it is, because there are many foolish rascals, they interpret unnecessarily. Just like Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is a place in India, still existing. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). The meaning is clear, that "Kurukṣetra is a religious place and there, the Pāṇḍavas and the Kurus, they assembled together for fighting." But many so-called leaders, political leaders, scholars, they have interpreted, "Kurukṣetra means the body."
Reporter (1): Can you tell me the chant? Will you recite the chant to me? And then tell me why it's used so often by the followers?
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Reporter (1): The Krishna chant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. This is going on. Therefore whatever they are saying, they are all defective. Yes. That is our conclusion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is just like playing with fire.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha mūḍha mūḍha mūḍha. Defective means mūḍha.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they seem to be quite satisfied.
Prabhupāda: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. (laughs) That is nature's law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction
Karandhara: The saying is "Even the pauper is proud of his penny."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is also... You see... In Vṛndāvana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied. To have sex. Oh. You see. So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex. You see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied.
Karandhara: You once gave the example, Prabhupāda of the drunkards in New York.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karandhara: If they just get a bottle of wine they are satisfied even though they are freezing and starving and have no place to stay.
Prabhupāda: No. And why Kṛṣṇa will require like that? Do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is a madman?
Umāpati: No.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, I was thinking that too. Why would Kṛṣṇa require any of his devotees to sleep on the beach?
Prabhupāda: He wants to see His devotees are comfortably situated. Why He'll unnecessarily ask that "Go to the beach and lie down?"
Umāpati: You say that Kṛṣṇa stands there smiling very sweetly, playing the flute.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: So why should he require us to go through austerities like...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya means he must show by example. Āpani ācari bhakti śikhāimu sabāre. Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Umāpati: Is there such a thing as a sincere atheist...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: ...who benefits by austerity?
Prabhupāda: Atheist? Atheist? How he's sincere?
Umāpati: That's what I... That's what I'm asking.
Prabhupāda: ...daiva-varṇāśrama. My Guru Mahārāja wanted this that there be regular varṇāśrama, qualified. It is not the monopoly of India that brāhmaṇas are born there. No. No, you are all brāhmaṇas. Otherwise how can I allow you to worship Deity? Hmm. What is that?
Satsvarūpa: If I go to some city and hold a program and advertise but only, say, four or five people come and yet they're interested, very interested-should that be considered successful or unsuccessful?
Prabhupāda: It is successful. If one man comes to hear, that is successful. But we have to see that, after spending so much money...
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...better to call a small meeting of the learned scholars and talk with them about our philosophy because even if you advertise common man is not interested. They think, "Oh, what is this?" Even the so-called higher circles. The best thing is to collect some... Just like ordinary meeting it is done. That is better. Why should you spend unnecessarily on advertising. (end)
Prajāpati: ...if these world leaders and scientists could hear your nectarean words and accept them and surrender, the world would be a very wonderful place.
Prabhupāda: Then make them. That is your duty. I am talking to you, and you talk to them. That is paramparā system. Alone, I cannot go everywhere. Now you learn and you speak.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...first-class economist. We are trying to save the state money from being unnecessarily squandered away. The so-called scientists, politicians, they are simply wasting money. (break)
Prajāpati: ...fear this condition is hopeless.
Prabhupāda: No, not at all. You simply expose these rascals, and everything hopeful. You have to know how to expose these rascals. That's all.
Hṛdayānanda: So the more we preach and chant, the more we become purified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to become powerful spiritually. Then you'll be able. If you remain weak and manufacture your own way, then it will not be possible.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh. Jaya. (break)
Prajāpati: ...think the strength is our own, though.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prajāpati: We should not think that this is our own strength.
Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless. That is going on. It is a regular policy that girls may remain unmarried, and the drunkards and the meat-eaters may take advantage of the prostitution. This is the policy. They have no sympathy. So many hundreds and thousands of innocent girls, they're like children. And they're exposed to prostitution. They have no shelter. Now these girls who are with us, they're feeling some shelter, you see? That we are giving some shelter. Everything should be reformed, political, social, and be, you American nation—you're favored nation, that I am always speaking; you should utilize the favor of God and be yourself perfect—and be leader of the whole world. Anyone who is not believer in God, he should be punished. Because he's animal. He is animal, and he is posing himself as human being. Cheater. Human life is meant for tapasya, for understanding God. That is human life. This dog's life, cat's life, this is not human life. If you become a very powerful tiger, is that human life? They're thinking like that. "If I become as strong as a tiger, then there we are perfect nation." Then what is the use of tiger? It is simply kill only. What other intelligence he has got? So in your country there are so many things to be done. I give you the idea, now you take the leaders. (break) Rascal. Sentimental. Be yourself leader. (break) ...you give up all this material advancement. But there must be Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise it is waste of time. Live very comfortably, gentlemanly. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You live like wretched urchins." Kṛṣṇa never says that. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā. And this was practically introduced by my Guru Mahārāja, that living in palatial building and riding on first-class cars, one can become the best devotee. Not that one has to live underneath a tree, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī. That is not possible in this age. That is the continuation of my Guru Mahārāja, that if one is sincere he can remain a first-class devotee even in this material opulence. And if he would not have introduced, then it was not possible to come here and preach this gospel. That because the principle was to live underneath a tree, go to Vṛndāvana, and have loincloth, just like the bābājīs are imitating. No. Even in full material opulence we can become a perfect devotee, provided you follow the principles. It doesn't matter. Gṛhe vā... It was sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura long ago. Gṛhe vā banete ṭhāke. Either you live in the forest or in the city, opulent city, the business is gaurāṅga bole rākhe: always thinking of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Narottama māge tarsan.(?) Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, "I want their association, who is a devotee of Lord Gaurāṅga." It doesn't matter whether he lives in the forest or in the opulent city. It doesn't matter. He must be devotee. (break) Household life or in city life we should not be extravagant, unnecessarily eating, unnecessarily enjoying. No, that is not the... One man's food, another man's poison. We must know this philosophy. (break) ...and even we..., my health is not always going on nicely. Still, why I am trying? That is my ambition. I want to begin one revolution.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are mad. Still, we have to do that. Madmen does not, he doesn't think that "I require anyone's help." But still, the father, mother, guardian, government, gives him help. We are not dependent on their decision; we are dependent on Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī: Vaiṣṇava is unhappy seeing others unhappy. Otherwise, they have no unhappiness. They are unhappy seeing that "This rascal is unnecessarily suffering." That is unhappiness of Vaiṣṇava. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa... Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I have no, any problem, but I'm simply thinking of these rascals, that for some temporary happiness they make so gorgeous arrangement, and forgotten their real business." Just like all these... What is this city? At any moment, it will be finished, but... Just like they're flying, fleeing some other place, "America will be destroyed." So why they have spoiled so much energy? They do not know where to apply the energy for real benefit. Mūḍha. Therefore they have been called as mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, duṣkṛtina: showing very good merit for this big, big building, big, big road... Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious. But duṣkṛti. Duṣkṛti means for useless purpose, real purpose missing. They have no information of the soul within the body; simply they are engaged in the bodily activities. The soul is neglected.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you do for Him, how you can give Him? Because you are thinking that "I am doing for me," therefore you do not give to Kṛṣṇa. You keep it in your pocket.
Dr. Patel: Śubhāśubha-phalair evaṁ mokṣyase karma-bandhanaiḥ (BG 9.28). Ah, yat tapasyasi kaunteya tad kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasi, tapasya. There are many, they are very much addicted to tapasya, suska tapasya. Śūṣka tapasya. There are many stages. Unnecessarily starving, fasting, unnecessarily.
Dr. Patel: Karṣanti mām.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. This is going on. Why? Take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, be happy, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dance. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2). Everything very nice to perform and very progressive, immediately.
Dr. Patel:
- śubhāśubha-phalair evaṁ
- mokṣyase karma-bandhanaiḥ
- sannyāsa-yoga-yuktātmā
- vimukto mām upaiṣyasi
- (BG 9.28)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sannyāsa-yoga means sa sannyāsī, the one who acts for Kṛṣṇa, sa sannyāsī.
Dr. Patel: Sannyāsa-yoga-yuktātmā. Means you have actually, I mean, sannyāsa means nyāsa of all attachment for the...
Prabhupāda: Nyāsa means giving up, giving up. Sat nyāsa, sannyāsa. Oṁ tat sat. Sat is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is real sannyāsa, not this dress. This dress is symbolical. That's all. Real thing is kāryaṁ karma karoti ya. Kāryam. "Oh, it is my... Kṛṣṇa wants, everyone should surrender unto Him. Then I shall teach everyone to surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kāryam. "This is my business." Kāryaṁ karma karoti, sa sannyāsī. What is that kāryam? Kāryam means this is kāryam.
Prabhupāda: ...studying Bhagavad-gītā. If somebody recommends that "We accept this false," then what kind of business this is? Everyone says, "Oh, we have studied Bhagavad-gītā." (laughs) What you have studied? You are attached to some false imitation, and how you have studied? So am I right, Mr. Sar?
Dr. Patel: You are always right.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You are not properly answering. (laughter) I know that. Now...
Dr. Patel: You come into altercation unnecessarily.
Prabhupāda: No, no, there must be paripraśna. There must be paripraśna. Paripraśna is required, but in submissiveness with reasoning, not like vagabonds, no. Paripraśna must be there. Now, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, if somebody says that "Here is an imitation God accepted," is that very nice thing? This should be discussed. Otherwise, if we stick to our original principle and go on reading Bhagavad-gītā three times a day, then what is the use? What is the use?
Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? (Sanskrit) (break)
Prabhupāda: Answer.
Dr. Patel: It will be unanswerable by me. I have to submit. Otherwise you may fire me unnecessarily and create trouble, and I create trouble for you.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I will not fire. I'll not fire. We are coming to reasoning. Without paripraśna, reasoning... Either you should accept that you should not, anyone, recommend any imitation...
Dr. Patel: We accept God what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā, all right, in toto.
Dr. Patel: With all my due respect, sir, well, we must have some sort of forbearance for others' views.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Because if we have got to preach, we cannot make any compromise.
Dr. Patel: You feel that way, we have no objection. But we should also respect somebody else's views.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got all respect, but not unnecessary respect.
Dr. Patel: But even unnecessary respect sometimes you unnecessarily go beyond, according to the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we have respect. But a thief should be called a thief. That is truth.
Dr. Patel: You are the magistrate and you are the judge and you are the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not judge. I am talking on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: (BG 7.15) "One who is a narādhamāḥ, he does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So this is judgement. Ah! As soon as we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, we accept, narādhamāḥ. That's all. Whatever he may be.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is not only one name. There are... All the names of God are...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is Māyāvāda.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Then we disbelieve that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got name...
Dr. Patel: All the names of God are Kṛṣṇa's names. That is what we are taught from our birth.
Prabhupāda: Then why you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? You can chant any name.
Prabhupāda: ...another example. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. It is said that this living entity is untouched by this material body. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. So the example is given that the moon reflected on water appears to be moving, but moon is separate from that movement. (Hindi) Go on. (Hindi) (break) ...good example. Unnecessarily he thinks that "I belong to this country, I belong to this society." That means he creates another body. And if he knows perfectly well that "I do not belong to any of these bodies," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That teaching required, that every being is unattached to this body. Therefore yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape... Anyone who is maintaining himself under bodily concept of life, he is no better than the animals. (break) The demonic person does not accept any good lesson. Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. Because he is foolish, if you give him good advice, he will be angry. Still, we have to do that.
Girirāja: But it is better to find some innocent persons, for preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes, better field, those who are innocent. That is the duty of the preacher, four things: īśvare tad-adhīneṣu baliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. The preacher should see four things. First of all īśvara, the Supreme Person, God. So that vision must be there. He knows what is īśvara or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then tad-adhīneṣu, those who have taken shelter of that īśvara. That means devotees. Tad-adhīneṣu. And then baliśeṣu. Baliśeṣu means those who are innocent, have no sufficient knowledge, innocent. And dviṣatsu. And there is always a class of men who are envious of God, dviṣat. Dviṣat means envious. So preacher has to see these four classes of men or three classes. One, īśvara, and the other three classes. So he has to behave like that. To behave with īśvara-prema, how to love. That is his business. How to increase love for the Supreme. Prema. Maitrī, how to make friendship with the devotee. And to the innocent-kṛpā, how to become merciful. And to the envious-upekṣa, negligence, not to talk with them. Four behavior. Īśvare tad-a... This is madhyama adhikārī. And the position of the preacher is madhyama adhikārī. Therefore they have to point out, "Here is a jealous man, envious man." But people do not want it. They say, "Why you are pointing out? Why you are pointing out?" But this is business of the preacher. Otherwise how he will preach?
Prabhupāda: Just like he is a dog. (break) ...strike. Simply strike, protest. Where is happiness? (break) ...unnecessary spending. Unnecessary spending, then why you have allowed opening cinema? One side advertisement, "Unnecessary spending," and the other side so many rascal things, so people will spend for that.
Akṣayānanda: But they will say, "You must have some time to relax."
Prabhupāda: That is unnecessary. Everyone will say, "What I am spending unnecessarily that is my relax." (break) ...government officer will have a big bungalow and now there is act that "Others, if he has got a big bungalow like this bungalow, this is unnecessary." Now it is prepared to act(?). And for minister, it is relax, and for common man it is unnecessary. This is then... "Smoking for me, it is relax, and for you it is unnecessary." These rascals are preaching like that. If smoking is unnecessary, it is unnecessary for me and for you also. "No. For me it is relax." (break) Is that their advertisement? Save money?
Mahāṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And as soon as you save, they will take income tax.
Mahāṁsa: They have a wealth tax. So if you save that means you have more wealth, and then they tax.
Prabhupāda: And they will "relax" by drinking, "relax" minister. "You save money for our relaxation. That is our necessary. You don't spend money." And people are... Because they see that "If I save, it will be taken away. Let me spend lavishly." Yes. Just like we stayed there at Mr. Patel's house. There are three men only in the family: Mr. Patel, his son and his daughter-in-law. They have got eight cars, big, big cars, Rolls Royce. And about twenty servants. They know that "They will take it away. Better spend." Everyone is doing that. Because they know, "If I save, one day the government will take 98 per cent of my savings. Then why save? Better spend." They cannot give in religious institution. If they say they want to give something, no, that will not allowed. Yes. The whole idea is that "You save, and one day I shall take the whole money and we shall distribute amongst the ministers, Indira Gandhi and company. And we relax. We are working so hard, how to impose taxes upon you. So we must have relax." This is going on. Vicious society. (break) ...open. Let us open. (end)
Prabhupāda: Many countries... Especially we are Indian. We have seen in India. Nowadays there is no eatables. The government cannot supply food, failure, the problem which is not even amongst the beasts and birds. The birds and beasts, they have no such problem. They are freely living, jumping from one tree to another, because they know there is no problem of eating. And human society, there is problem of eating. What is the advancement? And there is enough place for producing food. I have seen Africa, Australia. Enough place. If the foodstuff is produced there, ten times of the population can be well fed. But they are: "Don't enter. Don't come here." The Africans will say to the Indians, "Don't come here. Go out." What is this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. We say, "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and utilize Kṛṣṇa's property." This is the best philosophy. But the so-called politicians and leaders, they are saying "No, you cannot enter here," immigration. America has got enough place to produce food. But they will, although they have gone to the United Nation, UNESCO, they could not find out any solution. Although there is possibility of producing ten times of the requisites of the whole population of the world, they will not allow. They will not allow. On God's side, this unit, this planet, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation)—everything is complete. You require water. They save three times water than the land. And the water is distributed over the land, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ so there will be sufficient food grains. And annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). And if there is sufficient to eat, have sufficient eatables to the animals and to the men, then everything is prosperous. So where is that arrangement? There is enough land, enough possibility, enough water. Now utilize them and produce food grain, eat nicely and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. Why there should be industry? You want to eat after all. Instead of eating this flesh, killing poor animals, why don't you produce food grains, fruits, flowers, food grain, and take milk from the animals and produce milk products, all nutritious food, all nice food, and be happy and remember God for His kindness. This is civilization. What is this nonsense civilization? Now there is petrol problem. I see so many buses, and not a single man, one or two men. And for two men a big huge bus is being run, and so much petrol is consumed unnecessarily. I have seen. I went from Nairobi to London in a plane—only five passengers. Out of that, four passengers we were.
Prabhupāda: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy. That's all. Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Kṛṣṇa is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Kṛṣṇa, Therefore they go to the dog's pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That's all. They have been educated like dogs. Therefore they want it.
Bhagavān: There is one United Nations report that very soon venereal disease will reach epidemic proportions all over the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago. You know that Dr. Ghosh?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?
Dhanañjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.
Prabhupāda: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.
Yogeśvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: They think it's so horrible to eat another person, but...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are suffering. Therefore you'll find, in the recent history, every twenty-five years there is a big war, slaughter, mass slaughtering of the people. How nature will tolerate? Now India has learned, imitated the western countries. Now there is war between India and Pakistan. Otherwise there was no such thing. During two wars between the Pakistan and Hindustan, unnecessarily, without any profit, millions of people were killed.
Karandhara: Just recently India exploded an atomic bomb, and now Pakistan is hurrying to get an atomic bomb also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on.
Guru-gaurāṅga: The government promised it would be only for peaceful purposes.
Prabhupāda: No, what do they know about peaceful conditions. They are all rascals. They do not know what is peaceful condition. Actually peaceful condition is described in the Bhagavad-gītā,
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
This is peace. Unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, where is the peacefulness? There cannot be. All rascaldom. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). These rascals and fools, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ, lost of all knowledge—how there can be peace? It is all useless. What is this?
Prabhupāda: Oh. Like, what you have? Surfer? Surfer?
Karandhara: Surfing. Yeah, similar.
Prabhupāda: Surfing. Surfing or suffering? (laughter) Unnecessarily, whole day and night they are... This is also another example of māyā. He is actually suffering, but he's thinking, enjoying. It always remains calm and quiet? There is no waves?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Sometimes. In the morning it's very calm.
Prabhupāda: But there cannot be any big waves.
Guru-gaurāṅga: No. Not like ocean. (break)
Bhagavān: They are importing dogs in India now, I think.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Bhagavān: European dogs.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) First of all, they were importing European masters, and now they are importing dogs. Now they will have to import European brāhmaṇas. Yes. Because in India all the brāhmaṇas are now finished. So for their ritualistic ceremony they will have to import from Europe, America. Long ago... Long ago, not long ago, about four, five years ago, I wrote this fact. (break) ...the communists, as they making, that the state is the proprietor of everything, so what is the harm of accepting God as the proprietor of everything? What is the harm? He is giving up his own right. The state is the proprietor. So why not make "God is the proprietor"? What is the harm? And actually, God is the proprietor. Now, this lake, it is not made by the state. It is made by God. They are claiming this is Swiss lake. What is that?
Yogeśvara: Geneva lake.
Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā, because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña. Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas... Because Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantras. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras. So for that purpose, animal sacrifice... Just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals, frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal... Ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence... Just like Christians says that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish" or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that... I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere. So I said that He is powerful. He can eat the whole world.
Prabhupāda: And Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning disobedience. How you can become Christian?
Young Swiss Man (3): Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught, through Bhagavad-gītā in some way is that he should not restrain and that...
Prabhupāda: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad-gītā. When there is aggression you have the right to kill but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful.
Young Swiss Man (3): Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants?
Yogeśvara: Why do we make the distinction between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants?
Prabhupāda: We do not kill plants also. We take... Of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say, "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. there must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says-find out this-patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26).
Yogeśvara: (translating) ...jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French)...
Bhagavān: When you had your talk several years ago with the professor in Russia, he made the point, when you were discussing about the regulative principles, that if you follow these principles, then your life becomes very simple, and if you don't follow these principles, life becomes very complicated. He appreciated that one point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will appreciate. Our... Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Without anartha-nivṛtti... Anartha-nivṛtti means stopping all unwanted things. Anartha. Anartha means which does not give us any profit and unnecessarily we are accustomed. Suppose we do not take any intoxicant. So what is our inconvenience? But people are spending millions and millions of dollars only for smoking. Therefore it is useless, anartha. But they cannot give it up. And condition is that without anartha-nivṛtti, there cannot be attachment for God.
- ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā
- tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ
- athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudañcati
- sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ
- (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15)
These are the steps. So after anartha-nivṛtti, one is firmly fixed up in devotional service. And if the anarthas are disturbing him, then he's not fixed up. He'll fall down. He'll fall down. That risk is already there. So these people are so much accustomed to this anartha, and they cannot give it up.
Bhagavān: What is the best way to gradually get them detached?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bhagavān: "...houses. Our houses are too expensive." It's a big problem everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Why do they not go outside?
Bhagavān: The problem is in the cities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascals, they want to live in city and drink wine and eat meat. So there must be problems. This civilization is simply to create problems, anartha. Anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily problems. So these rascals, they do not know how to solve it. But the solution is this bhakti-yoga. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
These anarthas, problems, they have created under the influence of māyā. So if you want to solve it, you take to bhakti-yoga. Anarthopaśamam. Directly it will be solved, directly. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam, lokasya ajānataḥ. The rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvān, Vyāsadeva, the most learned, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām, he has done this sātvata, Vaiṣṇava literature, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That is the only solution. These rascals, they have created problems. Therefore we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for their benefit. Let them cooperate, and we shall make solution of all problems-political, social, everything. Let them come and cooperate. (pause) They are not agreeable to close the slaughterhouse? Yesterday, you were not present when that mayor came?
Bhagavān: I was there.
Yogeśvara: He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not choosing, God is asking to do this. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result.
Prabhupāda: No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside) Go. Take sleep. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. (French)
Bhagavān: According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? (French)
Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says from the medical point that's all right. But from the religious point...
Prabhupāda: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life...
Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are.
Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty? Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming... The same thing: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."
Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest now."
Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want.
Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places. He could not find out. First of all he gave him four places, that "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles, that "What is wrong there?"
Devotee: It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find out a spiritual atmosphere.
Prabhupāda: And why don't you think? That means you are fool. You cannot think, just like dog cannot think. So you are equal to dog. Tell them like that. It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of understanding. In the East also there are many rascals, and in the West there are many intelligent. If it is the East and West question, how the Western boys and girls taking this philosophy? It is not the East and West. It is the question of the rascal and intelligent. One who is intelligent, either he is East and West, he can understand. And one is a rascal, either he is East and West, he cannot understand. This is the real problem. Just like this cemetery. What is the use of keeping this cemetery, occupying unnecessarily so much land? And they are worshiping. They will not go to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, but they will worship stone, bhūtejya, offer flower, kneel down. And where the man has gone, he does not know. Bhūtejya. And we saw in the Geneva. A big plot of land is occupied.
Haṁsadūta: Every city has two or three at least, very big, because everyone has to get such a plot.
Prabhupāda: And there are many ghosts also. Yes. Especially at night, if you go, you will see. There was a ghost in the house of John Lennon. John Lennon. I was guest there. There was a ghost. (break) ...binding to the māyā, to just remain a slave of māyā and drink this beer. (break)
Haṁsadūta: They introduced this.
Prabhupāda: So before that, there was no Christian?
Haṁsadūta: No, before that, there was no Christian.
Prabhupāda: What they were? No religion?
Haṁsadūta: They were like you said. They were just tribes people.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): That it has boundaries and...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are limited, therefore you are under the control of material nature. That is being explained there. He is limited. If he keeps his limited existence, that is nice. But unnecessarily, if he wants to become unlimited, that is artificial. How it can be?
Guest (2): I seem to remember reading a chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā that said... I can't quite remember what chapter it was, but it said that... Kṛṣṇa was talking to Arjuna, and it said that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "When you realize Me or when you realize God, or Kṛṣṇa, you will see the whole of creation with inside..."
Prabhupāda: Hm? "You?"
Guest (2): "You will see the whole of creation (sic:) withinside Me and withinside yourself." Is that a true translation?
Prabhupāda: Where it is? Cāru?
Devotee Cāru?: "You will see all beings in Me and Me in all beings."
Prabhupāda: So what is that? Does it mean all beings in Kṛṣṇa?
Guest (2): The translation that I read also said, "Withinside yourself."
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Industry, technology you can continue, but practically it has no use. (break) Just like there is the bench, you can sit down on the ground, and to sit down little comfortably you manufacture the bench. So for sitting down, you can utilize the ground, but you are unnecessarily wasting your time and manufacturing... This is industry. (break) ...philosophy is that we have to save time for becoming fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our necessity. And if we divert our energy for sitting down comfortably, then time is wasted. That... There is natural mattress, and there is a natural pillow, so why should you manufacture pillow and mattress? This is Sukadeva Gosvāmī. And there is natural food, fruits. So... And if you want still nice home, go to the cave. It is already made. Why should you waste your time? This is the Bhāgavata philosophy. But they are wasting time simply how to live in nice apartment, how to manufacture nice mattress, pillow. This is... So the whole philosophy is: save your time and make your life perfect within this short duration of life which you have obtained in this human form of life. Durlabhaṁ manusaṁ janma. It is very rarely you have got. Utilize it. And if you don't utilize, if you waste your time in these bodily comforts and next life you become a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? They do not understand this. (break)
Hṛdayānanda: ...sometimes they raise... Just like you pointed out in the preface of the Bhāgavatam that we're no longer in the Dark Ages in the sense that previously there was no communication due to the geographical boundaries and that even though other forms of technology may be useless, at least it's very beneficial to have different forms of communication such as telephone, telegraph, things like this, television. This is actually necessary.
Hṛdayānanda: So that's like a new light that you have given. I noticed in your lectures that you were always saying that these things were art. It took a while for me to understand it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nothing belongs to you. Why should you claim it is yours? They are claiming North America "ours," South America "ours." So how it became yours? It was already there, and you came as a immigrant, and it becomes yours? (break) Karmīs, they are claiming, "It is our property." And the jñānīs, they are living that "This is mithyā," and give it up. Both of them in the wrong. It is created by somebody, how you can say mithyā, false? Māyāvādī says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The whole cosmic manifestation is false." How it is false? And karmīs, they are claiming unnecessarily, "It is mine." Creator is different person, and he is claiming, "mine". That is also false.
Hṛdayānanda: So they are both envious of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: They do not know Kṛṣṇa. Foolish. (end)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Zero.
Prabhupāda: Zero. And they are going to put this zero, and they are going to have some big conference. So many people will come and spend money unnecessarily.
Mādhava: They want to make a better human being by making life themselves. They want to make it better.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our proposal, that don't waste time. You are living entities. There are so many living entities. Now try to understand what is your actual constitutional position so that you may become happy and peaceful. This research should be done. Why they are going to waste time in this way, money and time? You can write to the organizer, sponsor of this meeting, that "Why you are foolishly going to waste time like that?" You can say, at least, "My Guru Mahārāja says like this."
Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think if they're trying to create life they want to claim authorship. They want to say, "We did it," but they do not understand that they will...
Prabhupāda: What do they want to claim by creating life?
Dr. Wolf: Authorship. Originators. They want to be...
Prabhupāda: "So you can go to the higher planetary system. Prepare yourself in that way. You can go to the pitṛloka. You can remain within this world. And you can come to Me also." So if I have to prepare myself for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Why unnecessarily go to the other planets or to the dogs and cats? Prepare in such a way that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). No more material body. You go back to home, back... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the best. After all, you have to prepare yourself for the next body. So why not prepare yourself for the next body as good as Kṛṣṇa's? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). It is very intelligent movement. Any intelligent man should take it very seriously. If I have to prepare for my next life, why not prepare next life—just we are talking with you, you can go and talk with Kṛṣṇa. You can dance with Kṛṣṇa. You can eat with Kṛṣṇa. You can play with Kṛṣṇa. If there is such possibility, why should we waste our time in different way? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, we are going to die. And tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to accept another body, just you have already accepted. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. We have accepted a different body. I was a child. Now I have got different body. So we are accepting different body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, you accept another body after death. Now what that body should be, everything is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real purpose.
Atreya Ṛṣi: He would... As soon as we show that we can...
Haṁsadūta: Work together.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Work together and manage nicely, he wants to.
Prabhupāda: Now, so far the... Just like in Germany. They unnecessarily take the money while there is creditor, printer. There was no need of keeping money. Go on paying them. That was my policy. I instructed Karandhara that whenever there is collection, go to pay. That arrangement I made with Dai Nippon, that "I shall go on paying. You don't ask me." So he never asked me. You know that.
Jayatīrtha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As soon as there is collection, I paid him: "And you go on printing these books." This should be the policy.
Atreya Ṛṣi: This is very important that we understand. This is not common in the karmī world, that Śrīla Prabhupāda does not like credit or playing with money and saving it or something... You have a debt; you pay it; you don't create debt. Everything is just very honest and very flowing. This I have to learn myself because this is not the way the business world is, although I do a lot of business. And we all have to see that this policy is followed.
Prabhupāda: This complaint from the members is not at all good. If somebody becomes envious, he can file a suit that "These men have collected money from me, eh, but not supplied books."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: In a sense, it's like a school tax.
Prabhupāda: But, at the same time, it should be examined how Gurukula is spending money.
Jayatīrtha: Yes. Jagadīśa has made a complete report.
Prabhupāda: Not unnecessarily spending. That is the duty of the GBC.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about this tax, about this money to be taken from each temple. Gurukula is one of the projects. For example, there may be another project...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Atreya Ṛṣi: ...that Your Divine Grace and group, when you travel, there needs to be also... Every temple should contribute to that as well.
Prabhupāda: Well, if every temple cannot contribute, I shall manage from the BBT fund. That is not a problem.
Atreya Ṛṣi: You want...? I am using that merely as a...
Prabhupāda: And if you can pay, it is all right. If there is deficit, BBT will pay. You don't bother.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But in this Gurukula project, Śrīla Prabhupāda, temples are having difficulty in paying their debts to BBT already. I don't think they will respond, respond. On one hand, BBT, Ramesvara Prabhu is recommending that we reduce the cost of books, and on the other hand, it's being recommended that the tax for Gurukula be collected.
Prabhupāda: Everything exists. For the time being, he may merge; then again he'll come to enjoy this material body. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. Patanty adhaḥ. Even they become merged into the existence of Brahman, again they come back because there is no āśraya. Just like these air, airplanes or the jets. They have invented very good machine, eighteen thousand miles per hour, going very high, but there is no place. They come down again. That is a fact. What is the use of going so high, eighteen thousand miles per hour, and travel and then again come back. Why do you take unnecessary trouble if you cannot stay there? You migrated from Europe and other countries to America. You got shelter. You stayed there. That colonization was successful. But if you are going to colonize in the moon and there is no place to stay, then why you are spending so much money unnecessarily? What is this foolishness? And they have stopped now. So in this way they are trying to merge into the Brahman effulgence, but where to stay? They can stay in the Brahman effulgence as minute particle of soul, but the soul wants ananda, then again—"It was better to live in the material world." They come back again. That is statement of the śāstra. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. They may go very high, same way as the jets are going, but there is no shelter. Shelter is the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. So without shelter, they cannot remain there, and because by nature he wants ānanda... Suppose if you remain in the sky for many, many years, would you feel very comfortable? Then you have to come back again. What is the use of being falsely proud—"Now we have invented the machine. We can go eighteen thousand miles per hour and up in the sky"? That's all right, but what is the benefit out of it? Without ānanda, without society, friendship and love, you cannot be happy in the vacant sky. Then you'll have to seek again—"Give me some shelter. It is all false."
Prabhupāda: No, you... Śamaḥ, śamaḥ. The first word is śamaḥ?Śamaḥ means equilibrium of the mind. One should be trained up in such a way that he is not disturbed in his mind in any circumstance. That is called śamaḥ. And damaḥ, damaḥ means controlling the senses. Naturally I find one beautiful woman I want to talk with him (her), and he (she) is other's wife. But I should: "No, why should I talk with other's wife?" This is damaḥ, controlling the senses. So śamaḥ means keeping the mind always equipoised, and damaḥ, the controlling the mind. And suppose if... I have to eat something to live. So God has given me so many nice foodstuff: food grain, fruits, milk. Why should I kill an animal unnecessarily, for the taste of my tongue?
Justin Murphy: Selfishness.
Prabhupāda: But I want to live. There are... India, eighty percent people, they are vegetarian. They are living very nicely. They are eating sufficient food grain and fruits and milk and milk product. God has given us so many. So why should we maintain slaughterhouse, killing other animals? So a first-class man will not do that. First-class man will think that "I want to eat something to keep myself fit. If by natural products I can keep myself fit, why shall I kill another animal?" And every religion teaches that. Now take in your Christian religion. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouse. So this is the condition of the society. How you can become happy? You are violating the rules and regulation of religion and God. You cannot become... Nature will disturb in so many ways. That is nature's business.
Justin Murphy: But so many of us, of course, are used to it. We like it.
Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of this telescope? (pause) Nothing will be finished. God's resources are unlimited, but they will be finished. Making research, research, they will be finished. God's resources will not be finished, but they will be finished. Unnecessarily they have created necessities of life. In this way, in blind capacity, they... After fifty years where this big geographist is going? He does not know. And he is thinking what will happen hundred years.
Śrutakīrti: He's thinking that in a few hundred years the resources will be used up. He doesn't... He's thinking the resources will be used up.
Prabhupāda: But before that, you will be finished, so why you are anxious?
Paramahaṁsa: He's worrying about the civilization.
Prabhupāda: Civilization, but you will be finished. You will not take part in the civilization. You have no belief in the next birth. So why you are thinking like that? You will be finished, that's all. Why you are worried? Suppose I have come here for three weeks. If I simply think, "What will happen hundred years after I am in Australia?" What is my business? I will go away by three weeks. Why shall I bring so much thoughts about "What will happen, Australia, hundred years after"? You are going to be cats and dogs or something, or grass or anything else. But you will be finished. Then why you are anxious for Australia?
Paramahaṁsa: This is my country.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everybody, yes. They do not know what is culture of life. They simply want money, that's all.
Journalist: Do you think we have too much for our needs?
Prabhupāda: You are creating your needs. You are not too much in need, but you have created so many artificial needs.
Journalist: Such as what?
Prabhupāda: Everything. Suppose this boy is sitting down. Now I am sitting in a very nice couch. So it is not absolutely necessary that couch is required. But for getting this couch, we had to spend so much energy. So similarly, unnecessarily we have created so many things and going on. That I was going to say, that we come to the human form of life by nature's way. Now what is our duty? Our duty is to make further progress. But instead of going further progressively we are again going to become monkeys and dogs. This is our position.
Journalist: What about other artifacts of civilization like television and motorcars...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good, just like we also use motorcar, but not for fashion. Suppose if we go for preaching. If we can go by car quickly, we take advantage of the car. We have got many cars for preaching work. So everything is good, provided it is used for progressive goodness. (coughs) That our mistake is that when... Now listen, there is the mistake in Darwin's theory also. He has no information that the evolution is taking place, of the body, by the desire of the soul. That he does not know. Just like sometimes people were happy and living in a small cottage. Now they are making big, big skyscraper building. So what is the difference? The cottage and this... The cottage is not becoming the skyscraper building but the man who was living in the cottage, by his desire the skyscraper building is coming. Similarly the evolution means the soul within the body desires a certain type of body and he gets it. Not that the monkey body has developed into human body.
Prabhupāda: This is wrong interpretation. The law of interpretation is there when you cannot understand directly. Then you are allowed to interpret. Otherwise there is no necessity of interpretation. But they are unnecessarily interpret for their own purpose. That has become a fashion, to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in his own way. Where is the chance?
Guest 1: This, I think I remember from last year that the boys in New Zealand seemed to have a different interpretation of some of them, didn't they?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be, but we don't agree with that. We don't agree with that. Everyone has got the right to interpret in a different way, but we have to accept paramparā, the disciplic succession. Just like I have given one burfi. Everyone knows it is burfi, and if somebody interprets, "It is stone," so it will not be accepted. Everyone knows it is burfi, nice sweetmeat. Why shall I call it stone? But if somebody says, "I can interpret in this way," he can say, but it will not be accepted.
Amogha: Maybe you'd like to come to ārātrika. It's just starting, ārātrika ceremony.
Guest 2: I'd like to very much, but we'd better go home because...
Amogha: You've got something on? They have things that they have to do.
Guest 1: Later, at 8 o'clock, I've got a meeting, some people coming to my home. My wife's away having a holiday, and our youngest boy's come home, and I'm taking that chance to work long hours to get a lot of things done.
Prabhupāda: What is holiday?
Guest 1: For the school children, yes.
Amogha: Schools are not in session all over Australia.
Prabhupāda: This is winter holiday?
Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we have seen already a reaction is coming about against the killing of unborn children. There is one big poster that is being put up by a protest group which says, "The Queen Victoria Hospital kills unborn babies. Protest now," like this. So there is, I think, it's the Right to Life Movement in Victoria here that is fighting against this abortion activity.
Prabhupāda: But they are so sinful that they are unable to carry out. Upadeśo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye. If there is a serpent, if you advise him, "Please do not kill; be gentleman," will be become? Snake. Snake will kill, unnecessarily bite and kill. Sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ: "There are two envious living entities. One is the serpent and other is the envious man. So the envious man is more dangerous than the serpent." Why? Now, the serpent can be charmed by drugs and by mantra, but this man cannot be charmed. So this advice will not act. They are so dangerous than the serpent.
Australian devotee 3: How, then, can we advise them, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they are like serpents? How can we...?
Prabhupāda: You can advise only, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right," this one medicine. You can simply make plan how they will chant and take prasādam. Then everything all right. This simple method. Bring them: "Please come here, chant, dance, and take prasādam." They will be all good men. This process. Otherwise if you give them good advice, they will not be able to carry it. They are so sinful. Their treatment, the only treatment, is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Somehow or other, bring them together. Let them chant. Let them dance and take prasādam. They will be all right. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other means to rectify them. We are opening centers different parts of the world just to give them chance, "Please come here, take prasādam, chant, dance, enjoy," but that transcendental enjoyment will make them correct. We are the best friends of the human society.
Prabhupāda: But they will also not live.
Australian devotee 1: They think they will be recognized by their good works.
Prabhupāda: That means asses. The asses think that "I will be recognized by my work." He takes so much labor, load, although nothing, not a grain of the load belongs to him. But he takes the load unnecessarily. So this is their business. He will not live, his son will not live, his grandson will not live, but he is making permanent business.
Amogha: But when we're living we can enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that enjoy. Pramattaḥ. They are called madmen. Pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. They know it certainly, "Every one of us will die," but seeing also, they do not see. And that is madman. Pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. That the animal, he is seeing that "One animal is being killed. Next time is mine," but still eating grass. He has no anxiety. This is called pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. This is animal life, that even though fact is there, they will close their eyes. That's all. This is animal life.
Australian devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, even if there is a life after death, I don't know what it's going to be like, so why should I worry about it now?
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are a man, you should be worried. Because you are not human being, next life you are going to be cat, you should be worried.
Australian devotee 1: But the cats and the dogs, they are also happy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are intelligent, that "This is all nonsense. Real thing is God." That is... They come to their senses. They are intelligent. (break) (In car:) ...real business is to enhance your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These people, they are wasting time simply to know something else. There is no limit. Kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. What is moon planet? What business you have got to know the...? Whatever is stated in the śāstra, accept it, that's all. What is the use of experiment and going there and then again say, "Oh, it is all failure." Simply waste of time. The arrangement is there by God. That's all. Spending so much money, hard-earned money, unnecessarily and then say, "Oh, it is failure."
Paramahaṁsa: If they were a little bit intelligent and had some knowledge of the Vedas, they would learn that they could go there...
Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there. Just like I am speaking. I am not a scientist. On the knowledge of Vedas, that's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Just like you have said in the Easy Journey to Other Planets, you can go there by the mystic yoga process. You don't have to make some space machine.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambarīṣa: The scientists want to go there without performing any kind of austerities.
Prabhupāda: But there is austerities.
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, actually they end up performing greater austerity.
Prabhupāda: You have to earn money with so much labor and spend it for nothing.
Prabhupāda: Flowers, yes. That is... But not you take some dirt and extract the flavor. Then I will know that you are scientist. (laughter) (break) ...the vast water, but they cannot make it sweet. That you will have to depend on God. The water is, actually is taken, and it is made sweet. So how they can deny the hand of God?
Harikeśa: They have some water distillation plants now.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. He may distill one pound of water. That does not mean that... Why they are unnecessarily proud and denying the authority of God? How foolish they are. Therefore I don't like them, the most heinous type of atheist, not gentlemen. (break) Whenever they hold some conference they say, "Don't talk of God. Then you cannot come to the conference." Do they not? What is that principle?
Bali-mardana: Yes, yes, they do that. There was a conference on biology and evolution, and they made a rule at the beginning of the conference that "Whatever we discuss from now on is all right except that we will not discuss about God or anything, any divine factor of creation.
Prabhupāda: Just see how much atheist they are. Shameless atheist. Other atheists, they have got some shame. But these people are shameless. Shameless.
Bali-mardana: "Because we cannot see God in our laboratory, therefore we will not discuss Him."
Prabhupāda: But why do you teach us? We do not see whatever you say. We do not, so why do you place upon us? If seeing is evidence, then we don't see what nonsense you are talking.
Siddha-svarūpa: We don't see their atoms. We don't see their sputniks flying and landing or anything.
Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.
Dr. Gerson: That's what psychology's been trying to teach people: to do whatever they want to do because they have the power.
Prabhupāda: That's... But can he do anything as he likes?
Dr. Gerson: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that... We are not... Chanting... We are also working. It is not that we are simply sitting down and chanting. Because we are chanting, therefore we are loving everyone. That is a fact. These Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters, they will never agree to kill any animal, even a plant, because they know everything is part and parcel of God. Why unnecessarily one should be killed? That is love.
Dr. Pore: Love means never killing?
Prabhupāda: There are so many things. It is one of the items. Yes, that is one of the... Do you kill your own son? Why? Because you love him.
Dr. Judah: Would you explain the other side of it, the fact that, of course, the Bhagavad-gītā was, has its setting on a battlefield in which Kṛṣṇa enjoins Arjuna to go out and fight his kinsmen because it is his duty as a kṣatriya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in the material world, for the maintenance of equilibrium of the society, sometimes killing is necessary. Just like fight, war. When the enemy has come to your country, you cannot sit idly; you must fight. But that does not mean that you are allowed to kill everyone as you like. That is a special circumstances when fighting must be there. Therefore the kṣatriyas are required to give protection. Like the government is keeping military, police, soldiers, that does not mean government is after killing only. That department will be utilized when there is necessity, not that government is meant for killing. Government has other departments also. But this is also maintained. If there is necessity, it should be utilized. So Kṛṣṇa, when He is on the battlefield, that was a necessity. He has got two business. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). Those who are demons, those who are disturbing elements, they should be killed. And those who are honest and peaceful, they should be maintained. But because it is material world, the world of duality, there are good and evil, so you have to curb down the evil. Sometimes force is required. So that killing is not bad. When the enemy is aggressive and you are killing, that killing and poor animal who is supplying milk... You are drinking milk, your mother, and you are killing.
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all take one answer. That we are rich men, we are Kṛṣṇa's son. So why shall I work like you, an ass? A ass will work unnecessarily. We are not asses.
Yadubara: Actually, we're more active than ever before.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are rich man's son, Kṛṣṇa's son. Why shall I work? That is the nature. A rich man's son never works. He enjoys. We are dancing and taking nice prasādam. Why shall I work? What do you think? Poor man will work. Rich man, why they will work? He will enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor of all planets, and we are servants of Kṛṣṇa, a rich man's servant. Why shall I work so hard? The ass will work hard, not a human being. And that is the instruction of Rsabhādeva. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human life is not meant for working so hard simply for food and sex enjoyment. That is the business of the hogs. The hogs do like that. They work day and night to find out some stool, and as soon as a little strength, he enjoys sex without discrimination, mother, sister, anybody. Is that life? Tell them, "You are working like hogs, and we are living like human being. That is the difference." If somebody does not work like hog, does it mean he is escaping? (laughter) Just see. And the hog is asking to work like hog. Why human being will accept this proposal? Marshall theory. I was student of economics. He says the human nature is, unless he has got some obligation he will not work. That is the beginning of economics. If one has got sufficient to eat, he will not work. When he is obliged to work for some reason, he works hard. That is the economic theory. So nature is... It is not escaping. If I have got sufficient to eat, why shall I work? What is the answer? This is not escaping, it is comfortable life, not to work and get everything, all necessities. That is comfort. And working hard getting the necessities, that is for the hogs and dogs, not for human being.
Devotee (1): They have no faith or trust that this can be done.
Prabhupāda: Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. A kṣatriya should be so trained up, when there is fight, he must come out, forward. Not that he will sit down in his secluded place and poor man will fight. No. He should come forward as leader, "Come on." That is kṣatriya quality, yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Formerly there was fight, but the leaders, they would come face to face first of all. And if the leader, one of the leader is killed-yuddha means one party must be vanquished, fight—then the war is finished. The main person, chief person is now killed, so there is no more war. So yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Those who are taking part in administration, in politics, they must be of this quality, very chivalrous, brave. They have to learn all these quality. Just like the first-class men, they are being trained up in self-controlling, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. And these second-class men, they should be trained up how to fight. Because fight will there be. We do not place this bogus idea that there will be no fight. No. Then fight will be there so long the human society is there. But what for one should fight? That training should be there. Not unnecessarily. In the history of India we find there were two fights: one with Rāvaṇa and another the Kurukṣetra fight. (break) Not at the whims of the leaders. He has got some idea and declare war and engage people. He is safe, now the people are dying. Therefore these leaders, this administration, they require to be guided by the first-class men. So everything will be possible, provided our, this heart is cleansed. And that can be done by this propagation of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Then everything will be automatically done. So my request is that if we get some encouragement from the authorities, we can push this movement little more vigorously. Otherwise we have no source. We simply sell our books, and whatever we get by that, we maintain ourself, we publish again books, or we open new center. There is no encouragement from the authorities. (break) But very important movement. And try to understand it and if possible help us.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Too much wealthy condition is a block. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. If one is very materially opulent, he forgets God. Therefore, to be too much materially rich is a disqualification for understanding God. Although there is no more impediment, that "Only the poor man will understand God and rich man will not understand," it is not that. But generally, if one is extraordinarily rich or his one aim is only to acquire money, it is difficult for him to understand God. Bhogaiśvarya... Find out this verse,
- bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
- tayāpahṛta-cetasām
- vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ
- samādhau na vidhīyate
- (BG 2.44)
Another place, I think in the Bible, "God is available for the humble and meek"? What is that? Is there such statement? So the rich person is neither humble nor meek. He is always proud and puffed up unnecessarily. So it is very difficult for...
Jayatīrtha: Christ says that "The meek shall inherit the earth."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayatīrtha: "The meek shall inherit the earth." Because they're meek therefore everything will come to them.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Prabhupāda: So our business is, spiritual master's business is, how to help the disciple to transfer the attachment. It is not that we are creating an, it, artificially, no. The attachment quality is there. But it is being mixed up with material things. And if you purify this material contamination, then the attachment become pure, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the water falls from the sky. It is distilled water. And as soon as it is in touch with the ground it becomes muddy, dirty. Again that water, if you distill, again it becomes distilled water, as good as the rain water, original. Therefore bhakti means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). All the dirty things of designation should be cleansed. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. When the mind is cleansed, nirmalam, without any dirty thing, then you can begin bhakti immediately, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). So bhakti means cleansing process. Originally, distilled water from the sky, in touch with the ground, it is muddy. You filter it or distill it; it becomes original. The consciousness is there, but it has become muddy. You cleanse it; it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we say, "Don't do this. Don't do this." Don't mix again muddy things. It has already become muddy. Your business to cleanse it, and again if you make it muddy with addition of other nonsense things, then it will be delayed. When you ignite fire, you require dry wood. But if you ignite fire, at the same time pour water, then how it will burn? Don't pour water. Therefore we have so many "don'ts." "Don'ts" means that you are burning the fire. Go on. Don't add water. And that is "don't." If you ignite fire, at the same time add water, then how it will burn? Water is the counter-ingredient of fire. If you want to extinguish fire, then add water. But if you want to prolong the fire burning, then you should not add water. So this material enjoyment, illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, gambling, one should be free from these water-like things while you are in the fire of spiritual consciousness. Don't bring these things. You cannot go on burning the fire, at the same time adding water. Then it will be useless waste of time. Anartha upaśamam.
Prabhupāda: Don't do this." Don't mix again muddy things. It has already become muddy. Your business to cleanse it, and again if you make it muddy with addition of other nonsense things, then it will be delayed. When you ignite fire, you require dry wood. But if you ignite fire, at the same time pour water, then how it will burn? Don't pour water. Therefore we have so many "don'ts." "Don'ts" means that you are burning the fire. Go on. Don't add water. And that is "don't." If you ignite fire, at the same time add water, then how it will burn? Water is the counter-ingredient of fire. If you want to extinguish fire, then add water. But if you want to prolong the fire burning, then you should not add water. So this material enjoyment, illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, gambling, one should be free from these water-like things while you are in the fire of spiritual consciousness. Don't bring these things. You cannot go on burning the fire, at the same time adding water. Then it will be useless waste of time. Anartha upaśamam. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. Bhakti-yogam means anartha, unwanted things, upaśamam, subsiding. This is anartha. Just like we don't eat meat. Are we dying for want of meat? But they have taken it that without eating meat they will die. This is nonsense. And they are maintaining so many slaughterhouses, committing sinful life, only for misunderstanding. They do not see that "Here are some persons. They do not eat meat. They look very bright-faced. Why should I eat meat?" Anartha, unnecessarily, simply for the taste of the tongue, they are committing so much sinful activities. So just we are teaching, "Just control your tongue." That is called śamaḥ damaḥ." Because the tongue wants something, I have to eat, give it—that is not human civilization. If I control my tongue-tongue wants this thing; I say, "No, not this thing; you take this thing,"—then you are master. You are master of the senses. Otherwise you are servant of the senses. Because some of my senses want something... That is natural. But if I can control: "No, this not. This," that is called śamaḥ, damaḥ. And if I become victim of the dictation of the senses, then I cannot make progress in my spiritual life; I am third-class, fourth-class man. Mind wants to steal something. If you can control, "No, why stealing?" Then you are master. (end)
Prabhupāda: ...already very much attraction for this material world. That is called māyā. And when we are involved with these things, material prosperity, then we become more involved. On account of our material attachment, we are getting repetition of birth and death in different forms of life, and these attractions are making us more and more involved. māyāra vaibhava. People are becoming illusioned, "I am American. My country is so rich. I shall live here." But you cannot live. He is preparing for another body. So therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiya, jība ke karaye gadha. Anityad means we shall not be able to stay. Unnecessarily, we are becoming involved in this material world. Now, those who built up this nation, where they have gone, nobody can say. Because after this body is fallen, where he is being carried, nobody knows. He is carried by his work, fruitive activities. Therefore they do not believe next life. Finished. (break) ...gentleman, he was very well known, brother of Rabindranath Tagore. Rabindranath Tagore was poet, and he was artist, Abanindranath Tagore. In our childhood, in a meeting, he said that "Why should we bother about the next life? Let us enjoy this life." I remember that. Most people think like that. Carvāka Muni advised like that. Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. "Just enjoy life." "I have no money to enjoy." "Beg, borrow or steal. Bring money. Purchase ghee." "I will have to pay." "Ah! Why do you think like that?" "Then next life I will suffer." "Don't think like that. Your body will be finished. Who is coming here again?" What is that tower?
Kīrtanānanda: Lighthouse.
Prabhupāda: Lighthouse for the river?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Yes. These buildings are all rowing clubs. They're for boating, boathouses.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So still they are rowing house? No.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. That is intelligence. These, all these rascals, they are unnecessarily wasting. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Simply they are wasting time. That's all. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,
- dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
- viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
- notpādayed ratiṁ yadi
- śrama eva hi kevalam
- (SB 1.2.8)
You are executing your duties as scientist or as anything, but if you don't have faith in the words of viṣvaksena, then you are simply wasting your time.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's one of the chapters in our book that Mādhava is working, that inductive knowledge, there is nothing like inductive knowledge. It's all māyā; it's illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. (break) ...western countries it is full of inductive knowledge. That's all. (break) Dr. Radhakrishnan used to say, on sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), "It is too much." (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He died just a few months ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he died, and brain fag. All his knowledge, last five, six years—he could not recognize his own men.
Gurudāsa: When we went to see him, he hardly could speak.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual paths are divided into four. Not spiritual. Real spiritual, mixed spiritual. Just like this, "God, give us our daily bread." It is mixed spiritual. One has approached God, God is spiritual, but one is asking for material profit. So this is mixture, matter and spirit. So there are four classes generally known as karmī, fruitive actors, they work for getting some material profit. They are called karmī. Just like all men, you will see, they are working so hard day and night, driving their cars, (makes noise of cars) this way and that way. The purpose is how to get some money. This is called karmī. And then jñānī. Jñānī means he knows that "I am working so hard. Why? The birds, beasts, the elephants, big, big..., eight million different types of..., they are not. They have no business. They have no profession. How they are eating? So why unnecessarily I work so much? Let me know what is the problem of life." So they understand the problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. And they want to solve it, how to become immortal. So they have conclusion that "If I merge into God's existence, then I become immortal or immune from birth, death, old age and disease." This is called jñānī. And some of them are yogis. They try to acquire some spiritual power to make a show how he can play wonder. A yogi can become very small. If you put him in a room, he will come out. You lock it. He will come out. If there is little space, he will come out. That is called anima. He can fly in the sky, float in the sky. That is called laghima. In this way, if somebody can show this magic, then immediately he is accepted as very wonderful man. So yogis, they... The modern yogis, they simply show some gymnastic, but they have no power. So I am not speaking of these third-class yogis. Real yogi means he has got some power. That is material power. So yogis also want this power. And jñānīs also want salvation from the unnecessary working like ass, the karmī. And karmīs want material profit.
Prabhupāda: Because they are nondevotee. That is the defect. More the nondevotee, more rascal mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha... They cannot. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ, na prapadyante. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna: "Knowledge has been taken away by māyā." (break) ...more you become atheist, the more you become blind. This is the point. (break) ...given this maxim in our Back to Godhead, "Where there is God there is no nescience." (break) ...preaching, back to God. "If you want to know things are there, then come back to God. Don't go this side; come this side." This side means he will be drowned. There are two sides. If somebody unnecessarily goes this side, he is death, and this side, he is saved. So one who is going this side we are asking back to Godhead, "Come in this side." If one goes this side, he will find the downtown, so many nice buildings, parks and everything. And the boy who goes this side, he will die.
Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Svarūpa Dāmodara's book he gave the example that "Why does the red apple fall off the tree but not the green apple?" So the scientists say that when the apple gets ripe, certain acids rise in the stem and weaken it and it falls off the tree. There's no need for God or anything like that. It's automatic.
Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no question of God, but with the gravitation why the green apple is not drawn downward?
Rādhāvallabha: Because the stem is very strong on a green apple, but on a red apple it is weak.
Prabhupāda: That means it is conditional; gravitation works on condition. It is not final. Under certain condition it works. Therefore, then you have to accept condition. Under such and such condition it falls.
Rādhāvallabha: So these conditions are being set up by nature. There is no need for a controller.
Prabhupāda: That is post-dated check again. So many rascals spoke like that, but they are washed away by the waves of nature. You see? That is rascaldom.
Rādhā-vallabha: That is their first anxiety, that the ice will melt and cover the earth with water. Their next anxiety is that it will be covered with ice.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Ice melt or not melt, you are not going to live; you will die. So others will die. So you cannot protect yourself and others also. So why you are unnecessarily full of anxiety? You cannot. Paśyann api na paśyati. Pramattaḥ teṣāṁ nidhānāṁ paśyann api na paśyati. These things are already discussed in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You don't read? These rascals.
Rādhā-vallabha: I have no time. My science books...
Prabhupāda: You have time to talk all this nonsense. (laughter) And you have no time to read Bhāgavata, that's all. This is our misfortune. (break)
Jayādvaita: ...at the airport they cannot save themselves from our book distributors.
Prabhupāda: Rather, they purchase also.
Jayādvaita: Yes. The scientists become conquered. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...scientists do not manufacture brain and give it to a stone, and he becomes a scientist. Why do they not do that? Manufacture. You have got so nice brain. Now manufacture another brain and put it on the stone, and he becomes that, what is called, Frankenstein? (laughter) Why they are not able to create another brain? What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: But everyone wants sunshine. Why in one place denied, and one place there is sunshine? You are not free. Even though you want sunshine, there is no sunshine. So how you feel free? You bring sunshine. But that is not happening. There is superior arrangement. So to accept that superior arrangement, that is real business, not to declare freedom falsely. That is not possible. If I say, "I am free from the law-abiding process, law given by government; I am free from the law of the government," that is not possible. If you become outlaw, then you will be arrested and put into jail. So what is the use of declaring that "I am free from the government laws"? There is no freedom. Whatever little freedom is given to us, if you utilize it properly, that is very nice. If we unnecessarily declare that "I am free from any obligation," that is madman's proposal. That is the mistake of the modern man, that, especially in the Western countries, unnecessarily they are declaring freedom in so many ways. Unnecessarily. He is not free, but he is declaring. That is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, I think, or in some other. No? Prema-vivarta. Yes, there is a book, Prema-vivarta
- piśācī paile yena mati-cchanna haya
- māyā-grasta jīvera se daśā upajāya
The freedom is declared by persons who are completely under the clutches of māyā. He declares freedom. And he is so much haunted by the ghost māyā that he thinks his bondage as freedom. Just like a drug-addicted person or drunkard. He is thinking, "I am free." He lies down on the street sometimes in madness: "Who can forbid me?" You have seen madmen lying on the street... I have seen it, all traffic stopped. So this kind of freedom has no meaning. It is involving oneself with the strict laws of māyā. There is no freedom. And just like a child. If he becomes free from the parents, it is not good; it is dangerous. His life is at risk. If a child without the help of the parents go on the street, is... That freedom is nice? That kind of freedom.
Prabhupāda: This is called hog life, how to maintain this body. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Kāmān means necessities of life. Very, with great difficulty... (break) ...kāmān. Life can be easily maintained by agriculture and cow protection. No. They will start big, big mills, factories, motor tires, cars, instruments. Kaṣṭan kāmān. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is called ugra-karma, fierce... (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Fierceful activities.
Vraja-vasi: Haribol!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Unnecessarily creating problems. (break) ...one after another, one after another. Formerly paper was used only for Vedic knowledge. Now the paper used for so many useless newspaper, volumes and volumes and jasusi(?), unnecessarily creating agitation of the mind. And if you explain these things they will say, "This is all primitive ideas." Modern ideas means one must work very hard day and night to get a little piece of capati. Hm? What is the answer.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If we don't work hard they say, "You are a burden on society.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If a person doesn't work hard day and night they say, "You are just living on society."
Prabhupāda: That I am explaining. The day and night is that pig is working. That I am explaining. Then what is the difference between the pig and me if I am also working hard like that pig? Huh?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difference.
Prabhupāda: No, he said. What he is? Body is made, one night, immediately. After sex it becomes emulsified, two secretion, and immediately a pealike form is there. That is body. And that grows.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Although everyone is suffering, however, they think that "Because I am not suffering, everyone else is suffering, and that's okay." They're thinking that the miseries are only for others.
Prabhupāda: That is another ignorance. Everyone is dying. He is thinking, "I will not die." This is ignorance. He is running so fast unnecessarily.
Cyavana: He is trying to enjoy that machine.
Prabhupāda: Enjoy means another machine will strike, and his enjoyment will stop. There is ship, going fast. Where he will go fast?
Brahmānanda: Around the island.
Prabhupāda: Just like the dog. He goes fast here and there. "Gow! Gow!" (laughter) It is like that. He is going fast. Doggish mentality. That's all, all dogs and cats, no human being. This civilization means they are creating only dogs and cats, animals, go-kharaḥ, cows and asses. They are... We don't take them as human being. All animals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that because they don't acknowledge that they're suffering?
Prabhupāda: So many things. So many things. The first ignorance is that accepting this body as self. Everyone.
Cyavana: The capitalists are so anxious for money that they exploit this tendency of the living entity to enjoy by tempting him. Every year they create some new way to entice him.
Prabhupāda: There was no... We don't require all these things because we know others are victims. They pay for it. And they work hard for the money and pay to work. That's all. Our men never touch this Coca-cola and cigarette, but others, they are mad after it.
Brahmānanda: They say they have to work so hard to get food, but actually they are working hard for this.
Prabhupāda: He'll get food. Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Ādau śraddh tata sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivṛtti syāt. So anartha-nivṛtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivṛtti syāt because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. (break) ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there. But they will eat them, and they will create these motor big, big buses and then petrol, then fight. (baby birds making sounds.)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They also want to join the saṅkīrtana movement.
Prabhupāda: They are dependent on mother, by nature dependent. Similarly, you should be dependent on the original source of emanation. This is nature. Why they are with the mother?
Cyavana: Without the mother they cannot survive.
Prabhupāda: No, without, they can survive; still, they are dependent.
Prabhupāda: Accha bole tomare lagdha, suta jagat murare.(?) You give me that chewra and milk and banana, nothing else. (break) ...and so much useless labor for growing tea, that will be stopped. You can grow food. (break) You drink tea, you'll require sugar. Then unnecessarily producing so much sugarcane. And the by-product of sugarcane, molasses, you'll have to utilize. Then produce wine, liquor. One after another.
Indian man (3): But our country depends upon sugar.
Prabhupāda: No, that is mistake. Your country, you can produce your own food. That's all. Why you should depend? You produce food grains. You produce milk. Then your all necessities is supplied. Why should you produce unnecessarily?
Brahmānanda: Here they use powdered milk because they have no cows.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And here even by this sugarcane, what is called? Upper part? This part?
Indian man (1): We call it ag.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ag, yes. You can maintain thousand of cows.
Indian man (1): But that's actually best food, you know. In Punjab they use that. They store it for a year.
Prabhupāda: But you do not know how to be happy.
Prabhupāda: So this movement is to make the people Aryan.
Guest (2): Telling... (microphone moving) Let's say, people who fight for their rights, the blacks in the United States or...
Prabhupāda: ...for the kṣatriya? Kṣatriya means one who gives protection from being hurt, kṣat. Kṣat means hurting. So suppose if I unnecessarily hurt you, then it is the duty of the government to give you protection. So unless I am also punished by violence, I cannot..., He cannot give you protection. So this is also necessary. Therefore in the society there must be kṣatriya. The brāhmaṇas should be learned; they should give instruction, advice. The kṣatriyas should give protection; the vaiśyas should produce, economic development; and rest, they should assist-śūdras, that's all. This is the program of Aryan society.
Guest (5) (Indian man): How long do you expect to stay in Mauritius?
Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda is leaving Sunday for Durban and Johannesburg.
Guest (5): And the others?
Brahmānanda: They will stay here. We're making a center here.
Guest (1): Have you any program of Swamiji for the common mass?
Brahmānanda: Here in the evenings.
Prabhupāda: The idea is: the common men, they expect something, especially Indians, that India has got some spiritual culture. So every human being is seeking after spiritual culture, but unfortunately, at the present moment they are doing something which is not very desirable, the so-called swamis and yogis. I do not wish to describe them.
Guest (2): Does your haircut have any particular significance?
Brahmānanda: The shaving of the head is a sign of surrender to the spiritual master, and we leave the śikhā...
Prabhupāda: And keep the head light instead of unnecessarily burdened. In the Kali-yuga there is a symptom. It is stated in the... Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam: "In the Kali-yuga people will think by keeping long hairs he has become beautiful." This is the mentality of this age. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. You can write this. Lāvaṇyam means luster, and keśa-dhāraṇam means keeping hair.
Guest (3): By preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness would you condemn other people's beliefs?
Prabhupāda: We must condemn anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. We say... I don't condemn; Kṛṣṇa condemns.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paṇḍāls?
Guest (1): Yes. We may build paṇḍāls also. That will be... Because...
Prabhupāda: Paṇḍāl or no paṇḍāl. You can sit on open place. There is no harm.
Cyavana: We can build a paṇḍāl in one day and put up.
Prabhupāda: In villages we can sit down underneath a tree. That is paṇḍāl. Why should you unnecessarily spend money? Just cleanse the ground and sit down. That's all. Makes everything simplified.
Guest (1): If it's raining there, Swamijī. Rainy days.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Rainy day.
Guest (1): For that we need paṇḍāls.
Prabhupāda: So think. Kṛṣṇa is giving you intelligence. Think over, and Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence.
Guest (1): I don't know whether it is practical, Swamijī. That is another suggestion. Like you are here for about seven days. Don't you think it would be good if you come here and you call people, youngsters, for example, those who are interested in the Vedic culture, would come here, in any place, for about seven days or eight days to stay with you and to learn what you want to say.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like a camp.
Guest (1): Like a camp, yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nations. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value?
Harikeśa: Whenever there is some war they send some observers.
Prabhupāda: That is cats and watchdog. That's all, watchdog. (laughter) That's all, civilization of cats and dogs.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the 1975 Nobel Peace Award was awarded to a leading scientist who helped the nuclear weapon, who created the H-bomb. Just recently it was awarded to him.
Harikeśa: Peace prize? (laughing)
Devotee (1): Yes. Nobel Peace Prize in Russia, Oslo.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you are giving the real peace formula.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless they stop their sinful life, they have to suffer.
Prabhupāda: I am not giving. Kṛṣṇa is giving. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29). There is... (break) ...formula, if you want to make peaceful the dog society, is it possible?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.
Harikeśa: It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government. Varnāśrama-dharma is the only thing that will work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious government means Vedic government.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have histories that for millions of years such governments were working successfully. Now, for a few thousand years, they squabble, this type of government, that type of government.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cutting trees.
Prabhupāda: Because they are also living beings, so you cannot take their life unnecessarily. You are responsible. You can cut trees when they are dried like this; otherwise not. (break) ...cutting trees indiscriminately for manufacturing paper, some bundles of papers nobody reads. Every day...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They throw away.
Prabhupāda: They are publishing hundreds of thousands of copies for wasting, and for that paper, it requires so many lives.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever considered such things before.
Prahupada: No..., where is the man? All animals. Man will think. One with knowledge, he will think. And what the animal will think? Anyone who is not a devotee, he is animal. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The big animal is being worshiped by a small animal. That's all. A lion in the forest is worshiped by the small animals. So does it mean the lion is not animal? He is also animal. So similarly, all these leaders, these scientists, these philosophers, they are applauded by the small animals, but they are also animals, big animal, that's all. The test is whether he understands the spirit soul different from the body. If he does not understand he is animal, that's all. Maybe big animal, that is a different thing. Big or small, animal is animal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So anyone who is not aware of the spirit soul...
Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra. Then it will be all right. (break) Unnecessarily.
Indian man (1): The whole week they are very, very busy. Now today, Sunday, at least they think by playing golf, they can relax.
Prabhupāda: That is also another business. So this Sunday should have been utilized for understanding God. But they have no knowledge. Because they are fools, so again busy in pushing on a ball. That's all.
Harikeśa: We should go quickly. They're not going to stop.
Indian man (1): They won't stop.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've already both hit the ball. Now walk three hundred yards and hit it again.
Prabhupāda: Busy fools, creating foolishness, and this is aristocracy; a rich man's engagement.
Indian man (1): Yes. He can afford all this.
Indian man (3): So how long this thing will continue now, Swamiji, the materialistic progress, the way they are carrying on today?
Prabhupāda: If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, it will continue. You take advice of Kṛṣṇa; it will be all right. The disease is there; the treatment is there. If you take treatment, the disease will disappear. If you don't take, the disease will continue and you will die. That's all.
Prabhupāda: No, no, to kill animal is not very heroic. Nonsense. Innocent animal wandering and you kill. "Oh, very great hero." Again he deserves to be kicked on the face. All action, they are simply rewarded with kicking on the face. Why should you kill animal? Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. If you are killed, you feel pain. Why should you kill others unnecessarily? (break) ...here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not here, I don't think. A golf course is not a private place.
Prabhupāda: So we shall return? No?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you like.
Harikeśa: Would you like your gloves, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ice was coming down, hail. Hail. Before we went to the program there was hail, ice coming down. It's gone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the window there was "cut, cut." (break) ...African government policy to keep these Africans', er, service, yes, for working, get money. They will remain happy in that way. They have no brain. They cannot govern. It is not possible. So this policy is nice.
Harikeśa: Someone was telling me that the weather here was supposed to be like Miami.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So evaṁ manasa-gocaraḥ. You cannot have it. śruti-pramāṇam. You have to hear from the authority. Jaya. So if you want to waste your time in that way, you can do that. And next birth, you become a dog. That's all. This human life you waste in this way, dog's obstinacy; Kṛṣṇa will say, "All right, come on. You become a dog." Human life... Even Cānakya Paṇḍita says, a??cyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ: "Even one part of your duration of life, one moment, you cannot get it back again in exchange of millions of golden coins." Svarṇa-kotibhiḥ. Sa cet nirarthakam: "If you waste that time unnecessarily, then you do not know what you are losing, even from material point of view." This is Vedic civilization, not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized. Especially for the human being, it's so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing—simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing. How they have invented means of...
Brahmānanda: Fishing also.
Prabhupāda: Fishing. Yes, all old men, they are sitting hours and hours for capturing one fish. (laughter) Just see their civilization.
Dr. Patel: Because they are body conscious.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we see that how they have invented various ways of wasting time, which is so valuable. That is our view.
Indian: To them time is nothing because time is eternity after all.
Prabhupāda: No, it... It might be necessity for the time being. Buddhism also was a necessity for the time being. They are not for all. Emergency. Just like it is going on, "emergency." It is not necessity, but sometimes we have to take emergency. Otherwise how Vaiṣṇavas are worshiping Lord Buddha? Eh? Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jatam: "You are always deriding the Vedic principles," śruti-jatam. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghāṭam. This is emergency, that "You have become so much compassionate upon the poor animals because they are unnecessarily being killed." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa. He is glorifying, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, but showing that "You are deriding Vedic principles." So how is that, if one derides Vedic principle, at the same time, jaya jagadīśa hare?
Dr. Patel: Because the Vedic principles were not properly understood by those people at that time.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He directly said, "I don't care for the Vedas." Lord Buddha says. So who will worship a person who directly says, "I don't care for your Vedas"? Shall you go to worship a Buddhist or Mohammedan? No. This is emergency. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita paśu-ghāṭam. He cannot deride the Vedic principle, but it was necessary at the time. Otherwise these rascals will not stop.
Dr. Patel: Today, sir, the more animals are being killed than what they were killed in those days in the name of religion. Today it is in the name of the civilization
Prabhupāda: Because... No, no. Now there is no religion. "Secular." There is no religion.
Dr. Patel: Don't say no religion. Secularism is irreligious...
Prabhupāda: Secular means no religion.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...sign? Rāmacandra?
Tejās: Garuḍa and Hanumān.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Tejās: Rāmacandra, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Garuḍa, and Hanumān.
Prabhupāda: (break) Unnecessarily there are so many parties, and they fight one another. This is democracy. Today is ekādaśī?
Tejās: Today.
Prabhupāda: From the moon it can be made.
Haṁsadūta: (break) ...then the sun, it must be bigger than the sun.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Haṁsadūta: This moon planet must be a bigger planet than the sun if it's further away, because it appears bigger.
Prabhupāda: It does not look bigger than the sun. May be bigger. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...Kalākendra. So many kalākendras. Kalā means cheating, kalā. In Bengal, when it is called kalā, kalā deki dichi means cheating... (Hindi) I think in other countries also somewhere, they do so, that "I cannot do anything." Eh? In your country do they not like showing this thumb?
Haṁsadūta: No.
Devotee (2): what does that mean?
| Page Title: | Unnecessarily (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 15 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=101, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 101 |