Prabhupāda: Not religious. Religious, He married only eight wife. But these 16,100 girls were kidnapped by one demon, and they were concentrated in a camp. So they prayed to Kṛṣṇa to save them. Kṛṣṇa is kind to everyone. So Kṛṣṇa came to their rescue, and He killed that demon. He rescued all the girls. But the girls requested Kṛṣṇa that "Because we were kidnapped and we are concentrated under his custody, so if we go back to our father, it will be difficult for him to get us married to a suitable prince. So our request is that You marry us." (Prabhupāda laughs) Kṛṣṇa agreed, "All right." He married wholesale, 16,100. (laughter) And that can be possible. Why 16,100? He can marry 16 million at a time. Otherwise how He's God? Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja advises his classfellows that "Don't be bothering yourself for solution of economic question." That is already provided. Just like all these animals, these birds, they have no question how to live, how to eat, how to mate, how to defend. This is already there. They're eating, they're sleeping, they're mating, and they're defending as far as required. Just see the birds, as soon as they see us they go away, take defense. (laughs) So the defending propensity is there. How you can say the man is greater intelligence? There is intelligence. They were here, and as soon as they saw, "Here are come all the men. They can eat us. Let us fly there." The man cannot come in the water. So don't you see the defensive propensity is here? You may, according to your intelligence, you may discover defensive weapons, nuclear weapons, and aeroplanes, and bombs, and so many things. Because you have got higher intelligence. That the... But the ultimate conclusion: that the defensive propensity is there in you also. There is no difference in the material existentional propensities. So whatever does he find? (break) ...from history point?
Ultimate (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Expressions researched:
"ultimate"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Journalist: Yeah, I would feel that you had not attained that level of being out of it yet that you wouldn't know that. I really think I've asked most of the questions that I want to ask. I really sort of knew the answers. The ultimate of the answer, that is. I can't really think of much else to say or to ask. Have you anything that you'd like to say that may be of some kind of revelation to me or to our readers or something that... You know, what you're really saying, there's no easy way out. (laughs) If man is to attain any goal in his quest for fulfillment, he's got to work at it is really what it amounts to. So your message is really no different from that of Moses or Christ or any of the other great religious leaders. If people will follow the ethic of Ten Commandments, and follow it, that's where it is.
Prabhupāda: We ask people... We don't say that "You give up your, this religion. You come to us." But at least you follow your own principles. And... Just like a student. Sometimes in India it happens that although they have passed M.A. examination in Indian university, they come to foreign university to study more. So why does he come? To get more enlightenment. Similarly any religious scripture you may follow, but if you get more enlightenment here in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why should you not accept it if you are serious about God? Why should you say, "Oh, I am Christian. I am Jew. I cannot attend your meeting." Why should you say, "Oh, I cannot allow you to speak in my church." If I am speaking about God, what objection you have got?
Journalist: Well, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sure you know and I'm certainly aware that it's only recently that, for example, a Catholic couldn't even come in here because of some other church. That's changed.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Sometimes people who do not know the purpose of Vedas, they say, "The Hindus are worshiper of many gods." That is nonsense. Actually those who are followers of Vedas, they worship Kṛṣṇa, only Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ. Ṛg mantra. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). What is the purpose of Vedas? To understand Kṛṣṇa. One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, his Vedānta philosophy is nonsense. However you may advertise that "I am Vedāntist," is a pakka nonsense. Because he has not attained the perfection of Vedic knowledge. The perfection of Vedic knowledge is to know Kṛṣṇa, and that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births. Jñānavān. Jñānavān means Vedāntist. Not... They have made it, that Vedāntist... Vedāntist, Vaiṣṇavas, they are also Vedāntist, but it has become a common sense, a common affair that the impersonalists, they are called Vedāntists. Because, due to Śaṅkarācārya's propaganda, they have made their position as Vedāntists. But common men, they do not know that the Vaiṣṇavas are the best Vedāntists. We shall discuss Vedānta here also. Vedānta... In Rāmānuja-bhāṣya there is... Perhaps you know, in your country. There is Rāmānuja-bhāṣya Vedānta. Madhvācārya, he has also written Vedānta-bhāṣya. Not only Śaṅkarācārya. But because the Vaiṣṇavas, they know bhāṣyam brahma-sūtrāṇām **. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the actual explanation of Vedānta. So therefore they take more interest in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam because that is the actual explanation of Vedānta. Just like in the Vedānta-sūtra, the, what is Brahman, Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The inquiry is, "What is Brahman, Absolute Truth?" The Vedānta-sūtra answers... The Vedānta-sūtra is made like that, questions and answers like that. So answer is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything is emanating." He is the ultimate fountainhead of everything. Just now we tried to explain that the state functions protecting the good citizens and punishing the criminals. That should be the state business. Wherefrom this idea came? The law and... What is called? The law and order department or what is that?
Lady: Liberation. The whole life, whole human life liberation. They don't take, they don't like to take because it is started in Indian language. Or it is not Indian language. Kṛṣṇa is not Indian language. Oṁ isn't Indian language. It's the ultimate God's name.
Prabhupāda: Neither Kṛṣṇa says that He is Indian.
Lady: He didn't say, "I am Indian." It's universal. It's not Indian. Oṁ is not Indian. Anybody who wants to know oṁ, how to say oṁ. See?
Prabhupāda: So you have to accept little trouble to utter Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Allen Ginsberg: I'm willing.
Prabhupāda: We have taken so much trouble for understanding English language. And simply for our transcendental understanding...
Allen Ginsberg: It's next to Santa Claus in the dictionary.
Lady: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is Santa Claus. He is everything. He gives everything.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Prabhupāda: So now people do not wish to consider also this point, that "If I am eternal, if I am changing my place, my dress, my occupation every fifty years or ten years or twelve years according to the dress..." The cats and dogs, they live for ten years. The cows live for twenty years, and the man lives for, say, hundred years. Trees lives for thousands years. But everyone has to change. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). As we have to change our old dress, similarly, this body has to be changed. And we are changing. Changing every moment. That is a fact. This boy will grow also some day like you, like me. This body will not stay. I had a body like this, say, fifty years ago or sixty years ago, but that body is now missing. I have got a different body. So everyone is changing body in this way. We do not know where that body gone, but ultimately also, we shall change, and we shall enter another body, and again we have to begin new set of work, leaving all aside. Suppose this life I was President Kennedy; next life, even if I am born in America next door to President Kennedy's house, nobody will recognize me that "Here is your property. Come on. Enjoy." No. Property's gone. Again he has to make another property. This is going on. So the people do not think that "What I am doing? What I have gained? What is my ultimate aim of life?" This is missing. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍha duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam aśritāḥ (BG 7.15). People are not very serious. They're so much in ignorance that they: "All right, let it happen, whatever may happen. We may enjoy life." But this is not very good position. One should be, at least in human form of life, one should be very sober, considerate (of) what is happening. So out of many fruitive workers like this, one becomes wise: "Why I am doing this?" This is wisdom. That is the platform of knowledge, to inquire that "What is my position?
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So your father has got personality. And why the ultimate Godhead is not a person? What is this philosophy? If God is father, He must be person. How you can prove God imperson? Eh?
Haṁsadūta: Ah...
Prabhupāda: He is puzzled.
Devotee (1): I am puzzled.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Just try to understand this philosophy. If when I see practically my father has got head, his father has got head, his father has got head, head, head, head... Go on. And the ultimate father, why he has no head? What this poor person, gentleman, has done that he has no head? (laughter) This is... This nonsense theory is going on, that "God has no head. God has no legs. God has no hand." Imperson means He has no head, no leg, no... That means... And somebody says, "He is dead," and "void."
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prof. Kotovsky: As you know, there is two ultimate, two quite, I may say, opposite approaches to this problem. One approach is slightly different by different religions but in the same time, any religion recognizes in such or such form the change...
Prabhupāda: Take place.
Prof. Kotovsky: Change of place of a spirit.
Prabhupāda: Transmigration.
Prof. Kotovsky: Called transmigration of spirit, etc. As in Christian religion and in Buddhism and Hindu religion...
Prabhupāda: No, I'm not talking of religion, belief.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: I'm talking of science and philosophy.
Prabhupāda: No, that is... That is a change of color only. But the surrender is there. The principle of surrender is there. Either you surrender to monarchy, either you surrender to democracy or aristocracy or, what is called, dictatorship, you have to surrender. That's a fact. That's a fact. Without surrendering, our life is... There is no life. That is not possible. So we are educating persons to surrender to the Supreme wherefrom you get all protection. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), aham tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So surrender is there. Nobody can say, "Now I am not surrendering to anyone." There is not a single person. Difference is where he is surrendering, where he is surrendering. The ultimate surrendering objective is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After surrendering to so many things, birth after birth, when he's actually wise he surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "Such kind of mahātmā is very rare."
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. But at the same time, it seems to me that surrender, surrender is to be accompanied with revolt. The history of mankind has proved but by only revolt against some kind of surrender...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Mind is instrument. The mind's position is accepting and rejecting. Intellect helps the mind what to reject and what to accept. And that intelligence is of the soul. That ground of intelligence is the soul. First of all bodily concept is gross life, ordinary, like animals, they do not know except the body. Higher than bodily concept of life, the exercise of the mind, mental speculation. That mental speculation is adjusted by intelligence and that intelligence belongs to the soul. Therefore soul is the ultimate and soul is the part and parcel of God. Therefore God is the supreme. So the mental speculation or the evolution of mental exercise when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one realizes "God is everything," that mahātmā, that great soul is very rare. That is the statement in Bhagavad-gītā. Mahātmā means whose mind is great. The mind is great. He's not thinking ordinary things. He's thinking of greater subject matter. They are called mahātmā, broader minded, broad-minded.
Dr. Weir: Do you differentiate, as you would do, it's only a matter of attempting to comprehend the differences (indistinct) of things, the difference between thinking and feeling as rational functions?
Prabhupāda: That is the function of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing. Psychological activity.
Devotee (2) (lady): The ultimate desire of a Christian is to be with Jesus, is to go to be with him. That is their ultimate desire. Not necessarily to be with the Father, but to be with Jesus.
Devotee (3): What do they do with him?
Devotee (2): By leading the Christian life.
Devotee (3): I mean when they go to him, what do they do?
Devotee (2): (indistinct)
Devotee (3): See the idea is that you could not remember perfectly 'cause the taste is gone, the līlā is death mostly. But it isn't death, the basics are there, but they're teaching death. And so any intelligent person says, "I want to go to Jesus, but then what do I do? If it is everlasting hell, then heaven must be also everlasting, but what do we do?" And if it's void, then it will not keep the people interested, therefore people are leaving religion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good reason. There is no hope, better go to hell. (laughter) At least there is something. Never mind. Yes, hopelessness is not good.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Soul is the same. Just like you are under certain conception of life at the present moment. Just like your these countrymen. They were under certain conception of life. But by training they have taken another conception of life. So the ultimate training is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is perfection.
Bob: If two people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, is their soul the same?
Prabhupāda: Soul is always the same.
Bob: In each person. In each person is it the same?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Soul, as spirit soul, pure soul, they are all equal. Even in animal. Therefore it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), means those who are actually learned, they do not see the outward covering, either human being or animal.
Bob: Oh, then they are all equal and the same, or just equal? Are they equal and the same, or are they just equal?
Prabhupāda: No, equal and the same. Qualitatively and quantitatively.
Śyāmasundara: I thought there was also a difference.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa planet is also like lotus.
Yadurāṇī: Jaya, so, so it has...
Prabhupāda: Just like here in this material world the Brahmā's planet is the ultimate. That is also like mat..., lotus flower, and in the spiritual world the ultimate planet is Kṛṣṇa-loka.
Yadurāṇī: So you would have palaces and garden scenes and Lord Brahmā perhaps on his throne?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu (Bs. 5.29). There are palaces, trees, everything. They are not voids. The voidist cannot understand what is there.
Devotee (7): And Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we paint more informal portraits...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: That our senses are imperfect means, just like I have given the example, I can see the sun, but I do not see the sun perfectly. I have got the power to see the sun, but I do not know how big is the sun. That power I haven't got. In that way my senses are imperfect. So when I see the sun and hear about him from a perfect person who knows about the sun, then my knowledge becomes perfect, although I have got imperfect senses. Just like I cannot understand President Nixon by my speculation, but when President speaks about him I can understand, although I have got imperfect senses. This is the process. Imperfect in this way: that our senses cannot approach to the ultimate point by speculation.
Guest (1): Well I agree with that, but I still... The perfect person that is going to speak to me is God? Is that...
Prabhupāda: That, that we'll have to find, find later on. First of all the principle should be accepted that unless we hear from the perfect person, our knowledge is imperfect. First of all you have to agree to this point. Therefore you are going to your schools, colleges, universities, because at home who could learn everything? So why you are going to school, colleges and universities? That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that in order to know that perfect knowledge, one has to approach the proper person, who is know as guru.
Prabhupāda: That's all. The finger, so long it is serving my body like this, like this, it is in real condition, real, healthy condition. And if it is painful—it cannot serve—then it is not in healthy condition. So therefore any living entity who is not serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not in healthy condition. He is in māyā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is in māyā. That is, Kṛṣṇa says,
- mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke
- jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ
- manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
- prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
- (BG 15.7)
He is struggling hard within this material nature because he is not serving Kṛṣṇa. Therefore his punishment is to struggle hard in different species of life. There are 8,400,000 species of life, and he is transmigrating but becoming happy this way or that way, that way, that way. Just like you have come to America to become happy. Is it not? Otherwise why you left? Similarly, we are transmigrating from one country to another, one planet to another, one body to another, searching after happy, happiness. That is struggle for existence. So Kṛṣṇa says, "They are My part and parcel. Instead of serving Me, they are serving their mind and senses." Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). So long we serve our senses and mind we remain in this material world, prakṛti-sthāni. And as soon as we revive our real consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness—we serve Kṛṣṇa—that is liberation. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is the ultimate instruction. So instead of serving the senses, kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā, just like serving the country, serving the family, something, the wife, and serving the husband, serving the father—all the services are different phases of kāma. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ. So at the present moment we are serving our senses. When the sense service will be transferred to Kṛṣṇa, that is liberation. And this is bondage.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā paramaṁ buddhiḥ. The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn't matter. The process should be quest of God. What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we... what we are? What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science. In the Vedānta-sūtra, it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, what is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? If simply eating, sleeping, and sex life, and defend is the business of human life, then these things are there in the animal life also. They also eat. They also sleep. They have also sex life, and they also defend according to their capacity. We defend with atomic bomb and they defend their own nails and claws. The different spirit is there. So that is not the aim of human life. The aim of human life—this opportunity's given by nature to have a human form of life—is to understand God. Nobody can deny—unless he is a crazy fellow—the existence of God. That is not possible. There must be. I may know it or not know it, it doesn't matter. Therefore religion means to understand God and to awaken your dormant love for God. This is religion. Now there may be difference of process, according to country, time, people. Therefore, it is the duty of the government, it is the duty of the government... Hare Kṛṣṇa (someone enters).
Devotee: Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29). "Translation: The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, obtain peace from the pangs of material miseries."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Devotee: "The conditioned souls in the clutches of the illusory energy are all anxious to attain peace in the material world. They do not know the formula for peace which is explained in this part of the Bhagavad-gītā. The greatest peace formula is simply this. Lord Kṛṣṇa is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon. No one is greater than He. He is greater than the greatest of the demigods, Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā. In the Vedas the Supreme Lord is described as param īśvarānāṁ paramaṁ maheśvaram. Under the spell of illusion, living entities are trying to be lords of all they survey. But actually they are dominated by the material energy of the Lord. The Lord is the master of material nature and the conditioned souls are under the stringent rules of material nature."
Devotee: "Unless one understands these bare facts it is not possible to achieve peace in the world, either individually or collectively. This is the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Predominator and all living entities, including the great demigods, are His subordinates. One can attain perfect peace only in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Fifth Chapter is the practical explanation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, generally known as karma-yoga. The question of mental speculation as to how karma-yoga can bring liberation is answered herewith. To work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to work with the complete knowledge that the Lord is the predominator. Such work is not different from transcendental knowledge. Direct Kṛṣṇa consciousness is bhakti-yoga. and jñāna-yoga is the path leading to bhakti-yoga. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to work in full knowledge of one's relationship with the Supreme Absolute and the perfection of this consciousness is full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa or Supreme Personality of Godhead. A pure soul is the eternal servant of God as His fragmental part and parcel. He comes into contact with māyā, illusion, due to the desire to lord it over māyā. And that is the cause of his many sufferings. As long as he is in contact with matter he has to execute work in terms of material necessities. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, brings one into spiritual life even while he is in the jurisdiction of matter, for it is an arousing of spiritual existence by practice in the material world. The more one is advanced, the more he is free from the clutches of matter. The Lord is not partial toward anyone. Everything depends on ones practical performance of duties in an effort to control the senses and conquer the influence of desire and anger. And attaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness by controlling the above mentioned passions, one remains factually in the transcendental stage of brahma-nirvāṇa. The eight-fold yoga mysticism is automatically practiced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness because the ultimate purpose is served. There's a gradual process of elevation in the practice of yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, dhāraṇā, dhyāna, and samādhi. But these only preface perfection by devotional service which alone can award peace to the human being. It is the highest perfection of life."
Prabhupāda: Therefore in another place, it is stated, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), "After many, many births, when actually becomes wise, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate, he surrenders unto Me." That is the perfection of knowledge. So this is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the only source of scientific knowledge of God and our relationship with God. I am very glad that you are already very serious about understanding Bhagavad-gītā. But I request you only that try to... and understand Bhagavad-gītā without any, our man-made interpretation. That will be my request.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a, different stages. But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that what is this meaning of gṛhastha, and vānaprastha, and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is the meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know, that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate of life.
Scholar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If he does not know, if he is in darkness for the next life, then what is the meaning of this gṛhastha and vānaprastha and this...?
Scholar: We believe in the stage of life so we prepare from childhood and after ...
Prabhupāda: Yes, not only we, but everyone should prepare from the childhood. This is... This Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for a particular class of men. It is meant for the human society. So this education should be spread all over the world to save them from pitfalls of a life of darkness. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do not mean that the Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindus, or for the Indians, or for the Indonesians. No, no, it is meant for everyone. They should know the science.
Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not, then he must leave. That is... We are making so much preaching work to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason we ask, that is not...
Devotee: (softly) This was not a paltry reason.
Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and... That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something he is doing wrong..., that he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our word, śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ (?). By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my (indistinct). Because they are, they are, you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu. It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu. That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible... After trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be..., "Get out."
Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say, "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money, what can be done? But I don't think if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required. Human being, after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep them (indistinct), how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me (indistinct) this way. We have to do like that. Not that I (order), "Come on, you do this. Oh, you cannot do, get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for preaching and that preaching means one should behave himself, nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda Kumāra, you. He was accusing you, you were accusing him.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Locana: So where is the question of control?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why, in the ultimate analysis, the geologists, mostly when they trace the origin of life, they say everything started from matter. Living matters came out from non-living matters.
Prabhupāda: Where it is coming now? It came in the past and not in the now, and not at present? Wherefrom an ant is coming from this dust. Is there any proof? Even an ant does not come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact, there are several theories like that, about the origin of life. And they say starting from matter, all the living matters came from nonliving.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why it is not coming now, rascal? I kick on your face with boots. Why it is not coming now?
Devotee: Yes. yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the ultimate aim for the scientists.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Scientists means they are rascals. They're talking nonsense. And because they are putting the matter in some jugglery of words, other fools are being misled.
Brahmānanda: That Nobel Prize, the Nobel, he's the one who discovered the dynamite which has caused so much destruction in the world. But he made a big fortune. So all that money, he's now pushing for...
Prabhupāda: Another misfortune.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He created some misfortune, and he spent the money for creating further, more misfortunes. What can he do more? Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (Pause)
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa. Then your scientific knowledge is perfect. Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department. Any department. It doesn't matter. Through that department you go to the ultimate center. Just like here is center. And there are so many spokes. So many spokes. So whichever spoke you may be, come to the center. That is your perfection.
Prabhupāda: It is right, but when we speak that the ultimate shelter is Kṛṣṇa, that they will deny. Therefore they're wrong. Just like you are coming this side. If I say: "Come to here," they'll say: "Why shall I go to there?" That is their fault. We are requesting everyone that: "Accept Kṛṣṇa in the center. All your research work will be successful." That they'll not. (pause) Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). They'll not accept one thing, God. That is their business. (pause) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause) Jellyfish is also eaten by man?
Karandhara: Jellyfish? No, I don't think so. (pause)
Prabhupāda: They are meant for the birds?
Karandhara: Fishes, other fish eat them.
Prabhupāda: Oh, fish also.
Karandhara: Yes. (pause)
Prabhupāda: Water, they're also composition of atomic grains?
Prabhupāda: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes, immediate cause and remote cause. Another call: "Efficient cause and..."? The two words?
Brahmānanda: Efficient cause is the ultimate.
Prabhupāda: No, remote cause.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). Vedic literature: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?
Paramahaṁsa: They think that evolution is continuing. They think that the human species will...
Prabhupāda: Yes, evolution... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). Progress is going on. That progress, the ultimate progress is yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That where you're going, you do not return, that is the supreme progress. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. That is the highest perfection. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Mām upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ (BG 8.15). They have no idea what is the highest perfection of human life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements.
Prabhupāda: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And when the spirit soul, when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the...
Prabhupāda: Do the rascals believe in the living entity?
Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, these also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is governed by democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law. So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we'll take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great ācāryas, great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta. Veda means knowledge. It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta-sūtra. In small codes, the things are given there, Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Him.
Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already... A brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa- like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma, including, that "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't... You cannot act as a brāhmaṇa, you cannot act as a kṣatriya, neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... This is the protection.
Pradyumna:
- āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve
- devarṣir nāradas tathā
- asito devalo vyāsaḥ
- svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me
- (BG 10.13)
"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala..."
Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority.
Pradyumna: "...and Vyāsa proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14)?
Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye
Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava
Pradyumna: ...yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality."
Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know. They simply think that dog lies down on the floor, on the road... "We have got nice, best apartment. Therefore we are civilized." So that is their defect. They are trying to improve the condition of sleeping, eating. That's all. That is advancement of civilization. But that is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization means to understand Viṣṇu, how to please Him, how to go back to Him, go to the spiritual world. This is advancement of civilization. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). They do not know all these things. Therefore they have been described as śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).
Prabhupāda: What is the aim of this movement?
Yogeśvara: The evolution of man.
Prabhupāda: Evolution of man. So man is going to evolve more? What is that ultimate evolution?
Yogeśvara: To a reintegration of man with the cosmos or cosmic consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Cosmic consciousness. We also believe individual consciousness and cosmic consciousness. We are now studying this subject matter in our class. Kṣetra-kṣetra-jña. So kṣetra-jña, the knower... The individual soul is also knower, conscious, and the Supersoul, God, is also conscious. So we also admit, universal consciousness, that is God's consciousness. (break)... consciousness is limited.
Yogeśvara: (break) ...is studying the same thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the evolution, when our consciousness is in agreement with the supreme consciousness. (break) That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Love, that's nice. Very good. So the supreme consciousness and our individual consciousness, when they are in exchange of love, that is perfection. Is that...?
Yogeśvara: (break) ...that this ultimate consciousness is one of union with the Absolute, that it is one of light, of samādhi, of total love. This is the highest.
Prabhupāda: So love, love. When we speak of love, there must be two persons. (Yogeśvara translates) So what is their philosophy?
Yogeśvara: The love of which they are speaking is a love that binds everything together, that bathes everything in light and love.
Prabhupāda: So there is no action? No action?
Yogeśvara: No, he says there is action.
Prabhupāda: What are those activities?
Yogeśvara: Giving.
Prabhupāda: Giving and taking also. (break)
Yogeśvara: ...there is giving. There is also taking. But it's not... The person who has achieved this ultimate perfection, whenever he takes, he immediately gives it to someone else.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. The transaction between two lovers, one gives, another takes. Sometimes one gives, another takes, another gives, and one takes. This is exchange. Similarly, feeding. I give something to my beloved to eat something. He also gives me something. I eat also. Similarly, I disclose my confidence unto my beloved. My beloved also discloses her or his confidence. These are loving exchanges.
Yogeśvara: He says that he understands that we are talking of love meaning two people, but does that mean that... Why can't we think of love in terms of an exchange between man and everything, between man and the cosmos?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Cosmos represents, as he says, consciousness. That is the person, consciousness. Just like if I love a tree, I love the leaves and twigs also. If I pour water on the root of the tree, it goes to the leaves, twigs, branches, automatically. So if we love the supreme consciousness, Supreme Person, who has got universal consciousness, then automatically my service goes to everywhere.
Yogeśvara: This is also what their philosophy is, he says.
Prabhupāda: So what is that ideal of perfection?
Yogeśvara: That it is nirvāṇa, it is the kingdom of Lord Jesus Christ. He says it is the ultimate point for which all men are ultimately striving.
Prabhupāda: So what is that? Nirvāṇa means zero. Everyone is trying for the zero?
Yogeśvara: (break) Nirvāṇa means something different for them?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yogeśvara: (break) He says it is an entering into something that is alive and real.
Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa, this word is Sanskrit word. Nirvāṇa means finish. (break)
Yogeśvara: For them the word nirvāṇa means an end but an end to this material existence and an entrance into the silence of the Absolute, onto a level that is real, whereas this one is false. This one is rejected.
Prabhupāda: Why silence?
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Suppose if I am going to London. So unless I am interested to go to London, what is the use of knowing how to go to London?
Yogeśvara: Their students feel the need for this ultimate perfection and that's why they come to the movement.
Prabhupāda: But if he does not know what is ultimate perfection, this is bogus.
Yogeśvara: (break) ...realization of God.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Just like if I say that "If you do like this, you can make one million dollars." But you know what is the value of one millions dollars; then you endeavor. But if we don't know what is that one million dollars, why should we endeavor?
Yogeśvara: No, he said, all of their students, they know the value of realizing God in their heart.
Prabhupāda: How do they know? How do they know?
Yogeśvara: There are already people who are aspiring after a richer, more spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: What is that spiritual life? (break)
Prabhupāda: That is human life. Śreya uttamam. Śreyas means... śreyas and preyas. Goodness, welfare, good. A small child does not know what is his śreyas. If you give a two payasā worth lozenges, he thinks, "This is my object, end of... I have got now nice sweet lozenges." But as you advance, then the śreyas is different. It is preyas. Immediately which you like, that is called preyas. But what is your ultimate good, that is called śreyas. Śreyas and preyas. So people are interested in the bodily concept of life. Anything which is immediately pleasing to my senses, we take it, "This is my end of life." Therefore śāstra says, śreya uttamam, not that śreyas which is immediately very pleasing to you. What is immediately pleasing to you, it will be a source of great displeasure at the end. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So uttamam. Uttamam. Ut means transcendental, and tama means this material world. "Beyond this material world," Uttama. Śreya uttamam. Because we are not this material body, therefore our śreyas, our highest perfection of life, is different. Here the perfection of life—you get a comfortable life of the body. That is not possible, however comfortably you may situate. You may be very rich man, you may have very rich connection or good apartment, but still, you cannot be happy because you are not this body. But they do not know. Therefore one should be inquisitiveness that "I want to be happy. I am arranging for my happiness with so many material paraphernalia, but still I am not happy." This inquiry should be there. That is called jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. And that is brahma-jijñāsā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. By your knowledge. If you are scientist, you are chemist, through chemical challenge you try to glorify the Supreme Lord. If you are physicist, from physical point of view, try to explain. If you are scientist... Anyway, because ultimate... Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Any knowledge, that is... You have to approve the Supreme. That is real perfect knowledge. And at the present moment men of knowledge they are rejecting. Because they cannot explain, they are rejecting. They do not bother.
Guest (1): Modern science has cleared the deck very much for religion. They are not so dogmatic as the old scientists used to be.
Prabhupāda: What do they say now?
Guest (1): Well, you see, the modern scientific discoveries have led to the stage at which the science can no more say that religion is humbug. Now they say, "Well, we do not know. Honestly speaking, that is the position," they say.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
Prabhupāda: They must neglect because foolish, they cannot solve. They're rascal. They cannot solve. They're simply pleased with some what is called, temporary success. That's all. The ultimate success is not the... Professor Einstein, he was very big scientist but he could not solve his death. He was to die.
Hṛdayānanda: Boy! That's amazing.
Prabhupāda: He has to die. He could not solve his death and he's a big scientist. What kind of scientist is that?
Hṛdayānanda: Boy!
Prabhupāda: The real problem remain unsolved.
Devotee: ...death is blindness.
Prabhupāda: Ha? No. That is rascaldom. They do not see the real problem. Neither they're able to solve it. They're simply happy by some... Just like child. The child, he wants to play whole day long. He does not care. Like that. This human life is meant for making a perfect solution of all problems. That they do not care. There is some temporary benefit. They're very much busy and known as scientist.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Because I said about authority... So this is fact. Now, in Russia the authority was the Czar. Now, after this Bolshevik revolution, Lenin became authority. That was his point. I said that you have to accept one authority. That you cannot change. That he said, that "Yes, that I accept, but authority has to be changed by revolution." And yes, we accept that. But the ult... When you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness authority, then there is no more necessity of change." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone is trying to achieve the greatest profit. So when he gets Kṛṣṇa, he is satisfied. No more profit. Final profit. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. So there is no more necessity of revolution because that is the ultimate peaceful condition. So if you do not come to the ultimate condition of peace, then this revolutionary method will go on, continue. There will be no cessation of revolution, one after, one... That is māyā, illusion. I am thinking by going a few steps, mirage, I will get the water. But there is no water at all. It is simply illusion. And as soon as you go a few steps forward, you see that the water has gone away, again, few steps forward. You go again. Again you see. This is going on. So animal, they go forward after the mirage. But a sensible man, he knows that "This is not water. It appears like water, but it is not water." Therefore we are making revolution, changing one authority from another, but we do not know they are not authorities. Real authority is Kṛṣṇa. That is their... Therefore it is called illusion or māyā. We are thinking that "From this ism to that ism." Just like there was French Revolution. So the French people are not happy.
Prajāpati: ...The most famous theologian of this century named Paul Tillich said that all words are symbols, and God is a religious symbol pointing to our ultimate concern.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. We say also.
Karandhara: Except Paul Tillich was the ultimate rascal. He was a debaucher. He debauched women all over Europe.
Hṛdayānanda: He recently died.
Karandhara: There is a book about him, a very inflammatory book about how he would debauch all of his friends. He said he got all of his inspirations after having sex with other women. He said after having sex he would get his inspirations on theology.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes the drunkards say also like that. They get inspiration by drinking.
Karandhara: There is one very famous philosopher named Dubrown(?). He said that he had a saying that "Some men say that you become intoxicated by wine, but I become sobered by wine."
Prabhupāda: That can be accepted. "One man's food, another man's poison." That is going on everywhere. But for that reason one cannot accept poison as food. Is it not? Just like stool is food for the pigs. But that does not mean stool is food. It may be food for a certain class of animals. (break) No.
| Page Title: | Ultimate (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 23 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=40, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 40 |