Transmigration of the soul (Conversations, 1976 - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"transmigration of one's soul" |"transmigration of soul" |"transmigration of souls" |"transmigration of the self, soul" |"transmigration of the soul" |"transmigration of the soul" |"transmigration of the spirit soul"

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 2, 1976, Madras:

Acyutānanda: This is Annie Besant.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...avatāra here, and she also came from Ireland to become avatāra here.

Acyutānanda: I heard how she became interested in the Gītā. She was Christian, and her infant died. So she asked priests, "Where will this soul go, to heaven or hell? And why? Because he hasn't done anything." So she was never satisfied with their answers. So then she heard that there is transmigration of the soul. Then she became interested in the Gītā, India.

Prabhupāda: So did she understand?

Acyutānanda: Well, only up to transmigration of the soul.

Prabhupāda: She admits.

Acyutānanda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 18, 1976, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: They also said Kṛṣṇa was a tribal chief. But how could He speak such philosophy?

Prabhupāda: How rascal they are.

Pañca-draviḍa: There are a few flaws in the theory.

Prabhupāda: The best class of men, the Aryans, and they were worshiping a tribal chief! And what was Arjuna? He was also a tribal chief? Arjuna said that "I become Your disciple." So what was he, that he is submitting to a tribal chief? Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). And He's teaching Bhagavad-gītā?

Lokanātha: Which is being read after five thousand years.

Prabhupāda: And still, they cannot assimilate it, so much, so-called civilized men, they cannot understand even the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), that there is transmigration of the soul, these rascals. And who is tribal chief?

Haṁsadūta: Just to master the language takes twelve years.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: What to speak of understanding the content.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Guest (3): Would you agree that Christ is the greatest master of all?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We accept him as our guru.

Guest (3): What is the...

Prabhupāda: Guru means prophet, yes.

Guest (3): What about a savior?

Prabhupāda: Savior? Who saves the followers from the danger of materialistic way of life, which means transmigration of the soul from one body to another.

Guest (3): Do you believe in a resurrection?

Prabhupāda: Resurrection? What do you mean actually? But it is a fact that one, the soul, is changing from one body to another.

Guest (4): That's what.... We agree.

Morning Walk -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles:

Bharadvāja: Yesterday you gave an example of a man who was lying asleep in bed, and he is transported somewhere in dream, walking on the beach. What is the full...? Because we're going to try to make an exhibit of it. So what is the full analogy? Is he actually going to another place by his mind, he's actually transported?

Prabhupāda: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I'm seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He's dreaming tiger, and he's crying, "Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger," and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, "Where is tiger?" So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he's seeing through.... That is practical. The child, when he's seeing through the childish body, he's talking nonsense. The same soul, when he's talking as an elderly person, he's talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. (break) Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have.... And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. (break)

Pradyumna: ...when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bharadvāja: How does the.... Life symptoms, how are the life symptoms maintained in the body?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bharadvāja: The life symptoms are maintained in the body still?

Prabhupāda: No, life symptoms, there is not. The body's fit; therefore, he comes back again. When the body is not fit, he enters another body. Just like your car you leave. We have come here. Now the car is all right; we go. If it is useless, we don't go. We take another.

Bharadvāja: The body is breathing.

Hṛdayānanda: That is like leaving the motor running.

Prabhupāda: They, unless the seer returns back, the body will lie down. That is death. The seer no more comes back. Then it is dead.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, sometimes a man dies in his sleep.

Prabhupāda: It is dead.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sleeping is like temporary death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All deaths are temporary. When you change bodies, you die for seven months. This death is for few hours, and that is for seven months. That's all.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, may I still add something? In Atlanta, one professor in a seminar said when confronted with the Vedic philosophy, he said, "These things cannot be proven empirically, so we dismiss the problem." He is satisfied to be made out of molecules that came together through chemical combinations, and that is what he believes in and what he works for, and there is no more. He dismisses the problem.

Prabhupāda: Dismisses the problem? What is that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he cannot prove that life is made from molecules.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so they no more deal with that subject matter?

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's their point. That because they cannot prove that life comes from life or that there is transmigration of the soul, therefore they will not consider your challenge because it cannot be proven by empiric means.

Prabhupāda: Why not proven?

Rāmeśvara: They say it cannot be proven...

Prabhupāda: It is proven.

Rāmeśvara: ...by observation.

Prabhupāda: It is observation. That is, a child is growing to another body. So the soul of the child is transferred to another body. What more proof he wants?

Rāmeśvara: There's no visible evidence of the soul.

Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body, on the lap, is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible?

Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed.

Rāmeśvara: But they argue that there is no soul; it is simply the changing of matter.

Prabhupāda: The changing.... When the child is born dead, why he does not grow? (laughter) Therefore they are rascals.

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (break)....culture and civilization is being introduced by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole human society. The modern civilization is not civilization. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti; mām eva param avyayam. Ninety-nine percent or ninety-nine point nine percent people do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. Is it not?

Rāmeśvara: In India people believe.

Prabhupāda: No, India believes. India have no authority.

Hṛdayānanda: I think now there is.... People are becoming more interested in this theory. They say theory. I think there is more interest now. I'm talking to common people. They're...

Prabhupāda: So if there is next life—they believe—then what they are doing for the next life?

Rāmeśvara: The Christians only believe in one life, and after that one life you either go to heaven or to hell forever.

Hṛdayānanda: For that reason people have rejected Christianity, because they cannot explain, for example, why a child, for example, is being killed. He's innocent. But by our philosophy it can be explained. For that, people, intelligent people...

Prabhupāda: Christian religion is speculation. All these philosophers, talking on Christian religion, speculating.... No clear idea.

Hari-śauri: These church fathers that we've just done on the philosophy book, they are simply speculating about what was in the original Bible.

Garden Conversation -- June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Devotee (1): I've heard that you use the example that spirit has form and therefore the body also has similar form, just as a hand has a form in a glove, it's the hand's similar form. So how can we understand that the trees have a certain form? That..., is there spirit in the form of a tree?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Then how do we explain the transmigration of the soul?

Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? Describe.

Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form.

Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration then.

Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form?

Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not.... Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms, everything is spiritual. So what do you think?

Devotee (2): So the form in the spiritual sky is not absolute either? We can take different forms in the spiritual sky?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are also many forms, but all of them are spiritual. The Vṛndāvana. There is tree, there is Yamunā water, there is land, there is cow, there is calf, there is gopas, gopīs, they are all spiritual. Just like from earth you make many forms, but they are earth. You make pots, you make dolls, but they are all earth. Similarly, spiritual world, there are many forms, they are all spiritual. What is the difficulty?

Pradyumna: Does that form ever change? That form changes also?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa is young and then He's a little older.

Prabhupāda: Generally, it does not change, if one likes this type of form. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya.

Kulādri: That change is available to anyone to progress from śānta to dāsya?

Prabhupāda: That change is not material change. The spiritual bliss is there, either in this form or that form.

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: The defect of modern civilization is that they have no idea about liberation. Neither they have any idea about transmigration of the soul. From the very root, they are defective. They are thinking... Just like animals. Dog is thinking, "I am this dog. I am born dog and I'll die, that's finished, everything." He cannot think that "I can become also man." He cannot think that. So the modern civilization, they cannot think even that there is next life and we can go... They have got the tendency to go to the higher planetary system, moon. Artificially, they are trying, but they do not know. Just like they can go to any planet, sarvaga. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṛn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). They do not know this, although they have got the tendency to go. But they do not know how to go, positively what are the position of the different planets or Vaikuṇṭhaloka or liberation or next life, transmigration—nothing of the sort. Simply like dogs. Now consider this point, whether I'm speaking right or wrong. I know I am speaking the right thing, but if you deny, then you talk amongst yourselves.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring. You eat, actually. So īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's friendly, He's sitting in everyone's heart, and the living entity is desiring. So bhrāmayan. Desiring means he wants to go here and there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni (BG 18.61). He gives a particular type of yantra, machine. This body is machine. Body is machine, everyone accepts. This is a machine. If we want to go to India, we ride on a machine, airplane, and go there. Similarly, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni. We want varieties of life, and God gives us a particular machine to ride on and travel, go to heaven, go to hell, become a dog, become a cat, become a demigod, become a tree. This is going on. Transmigration of the soul. God gives us a particular type of body, and we change from one machine to another. This is transmigration.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: ...the Vedic mantras. "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, within this body there is the soul. So on account of presence of the soul we are transmigrating to different bodies. Just like from childhood to boyhood. The body of a boy is different from the body of a child, but the same soul who was within the body of a child has now come within the body of a boy. And the same soul again, he will go in the body of a young man. And the same soul again will go in the body of an old man. And the same soul, when the body of old man is finished, then he enters another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. A part of it we can see in this life. I was in the child's body, I was in the boy's body, I was in the young man's body, now I am an old man's body. Similarly, as my child's body being finished, I have entered into the boy's body; my boy's body being finished, I have entered young man's body. Similarly, when this body will be finished, I shall enter another body, new body. That will be given to me by nature according to the mental condition at the time of my death. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). This is the law of nature. So people are not educated in the law of nature. They are educated in animalistic life. As the dog is thinking "I am dog," and barking, similarly, if a person thinks "I am Indian" or "I am American," so there's not much difference between the dog and the man. The man must think otherwise, that "I am not this body," then the civilization, human civilization, begins. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unfortunately, there is no education. This education was little there. Even in India that is now becoming finished on account of this Western influence. So that is now practically finished. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement begins from the understanding that "I am not this body." Therefore its activities are different from the activities of bodily conception of life. People cannot understand. That is the difficulty.

Interviewer: Prabhu, you, in this country you have a whole body of religious thought which does not subscribe to the Hindu assumptions about the transmigration of the soul, and the culture itself is a very secular kind of culture.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Interviewer: The American. And about eighteen months ago or more, if I remember right, there was a film, a documentary, on your school in Texas, on the National Broadcasting Company's program, which was very hostile, if not vicious, attack on your whole movement, the rearing of the small children. So my question is, what is it that made you bring your movement into a culture and a religious ethos which is hostile to begin with, with most of your major assumptions?

Prabhupāda: So this is education. The Western people are not educated in the spiritual life. So our predecessors, our gurus, they are for educating people in the spiritual life. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years ago, He advised Indians to go, first of all, make his life..., Indian should make his life perfect, and then he should go outside India and preach the perfectional life, how to become perfect in life. That was His mission. He said pṛthivīte āche yata.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: You can understand at any moment, but it requires little brain. Just like a child is growing or changing the body. A child is becoming a boy and the boy is becoming a young man. The body is changing, but the child cannot understand that his body's changing. Actually, the body is changing. So the young man's body is also changing, and the old man's body. Therefore the conclusion is that the body is changing, and the occupier of the body, it is the same. So on this logic, the occupier being the same and the bodies changing, it is to be concluded that when this body is changed, we get another body. This is called transmigration of the soul.

Mike Robinson: So when people die, it is just the physical body that dies.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained very elaborately in the Bhagavad-gita: na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).

Mike Robinson: Are you there referring to references from the scriptures?

Prabhupāda: Yes, so many references. It is a series of education. What is that? Read it.

Harikeśa:

na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin

nāyaṁ bhūtva bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ

ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam purāṇo

na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre

(BG 2.20)

"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

Evening Darsana -- August 12, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: The people are not aware of these things, neither they are interested to know that the soul is more important than the body. This is the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā. Still, they are placing themselves as learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā. But sticking to the body. And one who is sticking to the bodily concept of life, he's no better than sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). The whole civilization is going on this understanding of body. And then Kṛṣṇa begins that instruction, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). That is very vividly explained, that the soul is important because it is eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Don't think by the end of the body the soul is also ended. It will continue, and it accepts another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). So who is caring for this knowledge? Suppose I have got to... It is fact, we have to change this body. But what body I am going to change, who is considering? He's thinking of this body only, but he has to change. The science is there, but nobody is caring to know it. And still, they are proud of their education. And Kṛṣṇa condemns: nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. So they are keeping themselves on the bodily concept of life and posing themselves as pandit. A person identifying himself with the body, he's go-kharaḥ, and he's posing himself as paṇḍita. This is the position. The whole education is to realize that "I am not this body, I am soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Then he'll be happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Everything is there. You cannot become a learned scholar or learned leader from the platform of go-kharaḥ. That is the defect. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) this is the first instruction. Who is thinking that "What next body I'm going to accept?" Nobody's thinking. They say after finishing this body everything is finished. And Gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Then what kind of paṇḍita he is? Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), nityam, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The soul is immortal. Antavanta ime dehāḥ: the śarīra is antavat, perishable. Nityasyoktāḥ śarīrinaḥ. Who is considering? If I am eternal, if I am not going to die even after the annihilation of the body, then the next question would be jijñāsuḥ. Then what will be my next position? What kind of body I am going to get? That is intelligent. But nobody has this intelligence, and he's passing as paṇḍita. Big, big professor, they'll say, "Swamiji, after death, everything is finished." I went to Moscow. There was a big professor, Kotovsky, Indology professor. So we had some talks. So he does not believe transmigration of the soul, and he's a learned scholar. And everywhere you find that. The same atheistic philosophy.

ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet

yāvāj jivet sukhaṁ jivet

bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya

kutaḥ punar agamano bhavet

So enjoy life. "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. "Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee, and prepare nice preparation and enjoy." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet, yāvāj jivet sukhaṁ jivet. So long you live, enjoy. "I'll become a debtor. Then I'll act sinfully." Bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya kutaḥ punar agamano bhavet. Your body will be burnt and everything finished. This philosophy is going on. But Kṛṣṇa says: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), the body is burned, don't think that you are burned. You are living. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Who is caring for that? Nobody cares. And still they are passing as paṇḍita, philosopher, scientist. This is misfortune of the present civilization. A person who is equal to go-kharaḥ, he is the teacher, he is the philosopher, he is leader.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

(SB 7.5.31)

People are running like anything in the street, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking that this civilization, having nice roads and streets and number of cars and running here and there, this is... Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They do not know what is the goal of life. And if you ask the goal of life, "What is goal of life?" "After death everything is finished," that's all. "Let me enjoy." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet.(?) Beg borrow, steal, bring money and enjoy. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). If by his activities he's going to be a lower animal next life, then what is the value of his so much business and activities? Therefore they do not believe in next life. Close the eyes. Never mind, where is the danger in front.

Mrs. Patel: It is convenient for them to.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not convenient, foolishness. A rabbit, when there is some big animals, he closes his eyes. He thinks, "There is no danger." That does not mean he's out of danger. He'll be eaten up. So simply by concocting that there is no life after death, you'll not be escaped. In Bhagavad-gītā informs, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. There is no need of studying any literature, Vedic literature. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, Kṛṣṇa is giving evidence. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). This dehāntara-prāptiḥ, I was not this body in the beginning, I was a very jubilant child like this. Where is that body? That body is not existing. It is different body, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So why they do not believe dehāntara-prāptiḥ? I am the same soul who possessed a child's body, young man's body, boy's body. Now I have got the old man's body. So dehāntara is there, and I am still. I remember, I was a child, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister. I remember still. But where is that body? It is different body. This is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. I am the same man who was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and now I am differently situated. The body has changed. This is the proof, Kṛṣṇa is giving you this proof. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So if we accept authority of Kṛṣṇa and His statement, so reasonable and so scientific, then our life is successful. And if we don't care for them, let us do our business. But nature will not excuse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). Simply our false ahaṅkāra, egotism: "Ah, I don't care." You may do that, but prakṛti will take action. Because you are under the control of the nature's law. Uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Uru means very hard, tight. Or uru means the thigh. And dāmni (means) by ropes, baddha. We cannot transgress the laws of nature. If we willfully transgress, we can do that, but we will have to suffer. If you touch fire, it will burn. It will not excuse that "Here is a child, he did not know." No excuse. Either a child or elderly, you have touched fire, then you must be burned. This is nature's law. Very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Why you have got different bodies? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. As we have associated with the modes of material nature, we have got different types of bodies. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of forms? The forms are different, but within the form, the soul is one.

Press Interview at Muthilal Rao's House -- August 17, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Religion generally understood as a kind of cult and faith. But in the Vedic literature, religion means the characteristic. Just like sugar is sweet, that is its religion. If sugar becomes pungent, that is not sugar's characteristic. Similarly, a human being must be God conscious. So that God consciousness is religion. Because in the human form of life one can understand what is God, and if he does not become, he remains an animal. Animal cannot understand. So therefore his business is how to athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is not our manufactured word, this is the Vedānta words. Atha, now we have got this human form body, based on that transmigration of the soul after millions and millions of years, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), you have got this human form of life, now it is your business to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This is the business of human life.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Actually, the aim should be to go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). Otherwise, within this material world, even if you go to the higher planetary system, then punar āvartinaḥ, you have to come back again. Now the human form of life should be properly utilized. If we think that this life is everything, that is wrong conception of life. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to change this body. Transmigration of the soul. So by transmigration of the soul we have got this human form of life. If we properly utilize it, then we can make further progress. And if we do not, if we keep ourself as animals, then we'll degrade.

Garden Conversation -- October 14, 1976, Chandigarh:

Prabhupāda: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody understands. What is your understanding about this transmigration of the soul?

Indian man (1): We consider that man gets life after death according to his karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Do you believe on this?

Indian man (1): We have this belief.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the preparation? If we believe that we have to get another life after death, then what preparation we have made?

Indian man (1): Preparation? We... The real truth is we don't know.

Prabhupāda: That is I am saying.

Indian man (1): This is what we would like to know from... (microphone rattling) ...the learned people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is our duty, provided you want to learn it. But practically they are not interested. That is the pity of the situation. They... Nature's law is there, but they do not care for the nature's law. They are so irresponsible.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

Everything is being done by nature's law, and we are strictly under nature's law. Still, we are thinking independent.

Indian man (1): Nature's laws are inexorable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot surpass. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This nature's law is so strict, you cannot disobey.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got... We are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question—"What kind of life we are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying. "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama...(?) "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going? That's all." They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the... The soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise how do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the... "Man has soul," they say. "The animal has no soul."

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no... But you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment... You try to become rich, powerful, and president or minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi, or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away. "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get because fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child; now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy; now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude, there will be another body.

Dr. Kneupper: Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble.

Dr. Kneupper: What is the purpose of there being a body?

Prabhupāda: Being in body means... What is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose?

Dr. Kneupper: Some punishment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body.

Dr. Kneupper: Why does man... Why does the soul come into the body in the first place?

Prabhupāda: Punishment.

Dr. Kneupper: But he must have done something...

Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for... That is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished: "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body.

Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food... As human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara. And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be... Any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad-gītā, the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body," so where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting, that "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand, but I can understand also that "I had so big..., small body and this body." Then body is changing; I am existing. Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul?

Dr. Kneupper: Many people do accept.

Prabhupāda: But as soon as we say, "Oh, this is Hindu idea"—reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea."

Indian man (2): The problem is that identification only. Otherwise it is universal philosophy.

Prabhupāda: It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can... Any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul-Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say, "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?"

Room Conversation -- November 24, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat, and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence, and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death the minute spirit soul enters in the womb of particular mother through the semina of the father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog, or anything."

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Now, this, this is fact, that when this body is no more working, the subtle body carries the soul to another gross body. That they cannot see, but it acts. This science they do not know. Seeing is always not competent, material eye. Just like the example is given that flavor is carried by the air. It is being carried, but I cannot see. But it is being carried. That is transmigration of the soul. The soul is carried by the subtle body to another particular body, and according to his karma under superior examination, the soul, a very small particle, one ten-thousandth part of the hair, he is put into the semina of the particular father, and he injects. So the soul takes place in the womb of the mother. She supplies the material to develop the next body. This is the process, transmigration. Then, when the body is complete to come out, then another body works. Another chapter begins: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So this is development.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: He first of all refers to Plato, the old Greek philosopher. In one of his books, Book Ten of the Republic, he describes a soldier. No, he gives a story which supports the idea of transmigration of soul.

Prabhupāda: Plato.

Rāmeśvara: Plato.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: Then he mentions that in the Bible there is no information, so you have to look elsewhere.

Prabhupāda: Read Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: The soul is injected through the semina of the father, and he enters the womb of the mother, and mother gives the ingredients, develops his body, and as soon as it is complete, comes out. Where is the difficulty to understand this transmigration of the soul? These rascals have no brain. That verse I have explained this morning.

Evening Darsana -- February 26, 1977, Mayapura:

Lokanātha: It's fortune to take birth in the West now. It's fortunate to take birth in America or England? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Not all. (laughter) Not all. The fortunate, those who are so fortunate, they are now opposing me. The Western people, they are now opposing this movement, so they are not fortunate. So everywhere there are fortunate and unfortunate. But mostly in this age they are unfortunate. Either in the Western countries or in this country, they are unfortunate mostly. They cannot understand. In India at least those who are not very educated, mass of people, they believe transmigration of the soul. They very easily believe it because culture is based on that, pūrva-janma paro janma. They believe that "If I act sinfully, then I'll have to suffer next life, and because I did not do properly, therefore I am suffering in this life." Still they believe. But the so-called educated people, they are trying to set aside this. They say, "Superstition." And the leaders say that "India, giving more stress on the soul, not on the body, India's position is so degraded." This is the leaders' opinion. Big, big leaders, they think. Therefore the so-called leaders or learned scholars, they write notes on Bhagavad-gītā, but they never give any idea of spiritual life. They utilize Bhagavad-gītā for material end. This is going on. Just like our big leader, Gandhi. He was supposed to be very strict follower of Bhagavad-gītā, and he has never instructed about spiritual life.

Conversation with Yadubara (after seeing film) -- April 17, 1977, Bombay:

Yadubara: What about reincarnation, Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about transmigration of the soul? 'Cause we were thinking to do that for a next film, because it seems like a very natural thing.

Prabhupāda: Transmigration, how it can be shown? The mind, intelligence, and ego you cannot see. But you will have to accept there is mind.

Yadubara: We have not really worked out any details.

Prabhupāda: Details, you cannot show it. It is so fine. Just like here is the sky, but you cannot see it. The mind is finer than the sky. The air is sky. (claps) That is sky. Where is the proof? (claps) That you cannot see. Śabda, sound. Sound is the sign of presence of sky. But you cannot see it. But it is there. (claps) This is the proof.

Room Conversation-Recent Mail -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says he wants to make a trailer. Trailer means like a big...

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...and sound, explaining the process of transmigration of the soul and other philosophical displays from the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā."

Prabhupāda: It will be so attractive.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "These trailers could be used to distribute Your Divine Grace's books in many new, inaccessible places. I would like to know if this meets with your kind approval."

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.