Prabhupāda: Brief summary... In this scene Caitanya Mahāprabhu became the student. Not exactly student. He inquired and Rāmānanda Rāya answered. So the importance of the scene is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not follow the formality, only the sannyāsīs should be the spiritual master. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can be spiritual master. And to show this example practically, although He was sannyāsī and brāhmaṇa and Rāmānanda Rāya was a śūdra and a gṛhastha, householder, still He became like a student and inquired Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya felt some, I mean to say, hesitation that "How can I take the position of a teacher to a sannyāsī?" Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "No, no. Don't hesitate." He stated that either one may be a sannyāsī or he may be householder or one may be a brāhmaṇa or śūdra, it doesn't matter. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can take the place of teacher. So that was His, I mean to say, gift. Because in Indian society it is simply taken that the brāhmaṇas and the sannyāsī can be spiritual master.
Tiny (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This is the age for injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If children are taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness from this age, the face of the world will be different. (break) ...but they are not Hindus. They have got also obstinacy like that. (break) It is very important. "I thought in that way. When my mother died, as the devotees of the Lord think, I also thought in that way. What is that? 'Oh, it is a grace of the Lord. My mother is now dead.' Because she is the, I mean to say, real cause of my nonfreedom. So she is now dead. Then I am free." It is very contradiction from the materialistic point of view. It is said that, bhaktanam śam abhīpsataḥ. "As the devotees think, so I also in that way thought." What is that? Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ. "I thought it a special grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ pratiṣṭhāṁ disam uttaram: "And I at once took leave of my so-called home and went away." So that is the difference between the devotees of the Lord and materialistic persons. When their materialistic relationship, comforts, are taken away, they think "Oh, it is all grace." And the materialistic person, when their materialistic comforts are increased, they think, "It is grace." Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasmin jāgrati saṁ... That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like... There is a crude example. I think I have cited this example many times, that a foolish patient thinks that increase of fever is very nice. Fever, so what should be the ideal? Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, "Yes, it must increase." (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant.
Prabhupāda: The first thing is that according to our knowledge from the Vedic literature they cannot go there.
Reporter: But you admitted that it may be possible for them to go there for a short time and leave.
Prabhupāda: That I am taking this example just like we go for a short time on the sea but we cannot make any permanent settlement there.
Reporter: Yeah. But according to the Vedic literature they cannot go there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In this body we cannot go there. With this body we cannot go there. We shall have to change this body. Either you do it scientifically or spiritually or by any other method. With this body you cannot go there. You have to prepare a similar body which is suitable for living condition there.
Reporter: Would a spacesuit substitute for that?
Prabhupāda: Space?
Reporter: In other words, the spacesuits that the astronauts wear...
Prabhupāda: I don't think so. I don't think so.
Reporter: And when you speak of the analogies of one, say, a foreigner coming to another country and wanting to do whatever he wants to do there and being rejected or opposed by the inhabitants of that country, do you say only by analogy that there might be opposition to earth people?
Prabhupāda: No. There are informations. Somebody trying to enter in the heavenly planet was opposed because he was not qualified.
Reporter: So then because of this example are you saying that if earth people were able to land on the moon that they would be...?
Prabhupāda: First of all, my first conviction is they will never be able. But even they are able, I do not know how they will be easily received.
Reporter: You do not know how?
Prabhupāda: They will easily admitted.
Reporter: You said you don't know how they would easily be received or admitted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, by the residents there.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Four acres.
Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.
Prabhupāda: That I am instructing Kīrtanānanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban.
Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres?
Kīrtanānanda: I hope so.
Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head?
Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota, which is flat, very fertile, very rich land.
Prabhupāda: Where it is? Which province?
Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking with a poet who also is a fellow sādhana, whose family is from that area for many generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself has 160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently 160 acres is not enough to support a farm economically because farming is done now in such large scale with machines.
Kīrtanānanda: You can use those machines if you want. If you want to live in the so-called American style, that is so. But if you're willing to adopt the Vedic way of minimizing the material needs in order to pursue Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what does one need? He needs sufficient food to keep the body healthy and a place to lay down. So four acres is plenty.
Allen Ginsberg: Where do you get the... How do you feed the cow, or would you?
Kīrtanānanda: On four acres you can do it.
Allen Ginsberg: You can get enough hay for a cow, for...?
Prabhupāda: Fodder. Yes. We grow.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Whenever there is sun, there is sunlight, immediately. Where there is light, immediately there is illumination. Just like a drop of poison. You just take a drop of poison as soon as it touches the tongue immediately it expands all over the whole body and it make the whole blood, water, dead. How it expands, a small grain of potassium cyanide? Simply a grain immediately (indistinct). If a material thing can have so much effect, immediately, the spiritual atom cannot do that? That is called science. Similarly, the biggest spiritual identity, Kṛṣṇa, He can become all-pervading. We are particle spiritual, spark. We have got limited power. (indistinct) Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam, "I become immediately expanded throughout My body." And He is unlimitedly big. So how much His consciousness is distributed all over the world? Sarva-jña. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is not abhijña. Svarāṭ. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheśv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This example is nice. A grain of potassium cyanide is sufficient. There is no taste. The chemical characteristic of potassium cyanide, they have not mentioned the taste because as soon as there is taste, finished, they cannot... (laughter) He cannot say whether it is pungent or sweet. (laughter) Finished. So there is no taste. (end)
Sister Mary: People find it very difficult today...
Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example. Three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained.
Sister Mary: For people outside.
Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach.
Sister Mary: Well, you can't preach until you are purified.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, purification will go on. Suppose you are... Just like we are holding, what I... I began this propaganda in the Western countries. I was sitting in a park, Thompkinson's? What is that?
Revatīnandana: Thompkins Square.
Dr. Weir: That's so. But it's only when they break out from that control by, let's say making an observation or having an intuition that isn't inherent in the system of control in which they've been brought up, that they make an advance of any sort. You see, people with... I always give this example of Sir Alexander Fleming and Freud and others. People have been trained that dirty pet traditions should be thrown away, because they're moded and they will interfere with the experiment. This happens time again whereas a man suddenly thinks, "I will have a look at this. I'll ignore that." He breaks away from this control.
Mensa Member: It wasn't anything new, simply a rearrangement of the (indistinct).
Dr. Weir: Nobody'd ever... They were controlled to reject it. This is what so often happens. Perry Mason is a wonderful example of that. A person who always picks out something that's been rejected in his, his celebrated works.
Mensa Member: I don't know if Perry Mason is...
Dr. Weir: Oh, Perry Mason is a very popular court room or trial lawyer, as they call it in America. A person called Erle Stanley Gardner has written a large number of books...
Śyāmasundara: A person's knowledge in the material world will always be imperfect no matter how much he may advance in scientific knowledge, he'll never be able to solve the problems of birth, death, disease and old age.
Dr. Weir: Yes. But I mean the American's I believe, they would say, "Of course, but so what? You can live without a country." If you start worrying about whether you'll ever be able to comprehend the intellect, you will really not get through the day.
Śyāmasundara: But the goal of life, being to become satisfied with my life, is not meant in that way.
Dr. Weir: Oh, I agree that to be satisfied with life is to cut down your desire for omniscience to be satisfied that you can only hope to do quite not, not, not all of the things you'd like to do, to comprehend quite not, not all of the things that are possible. If you are content with that you may be content to play. Otherwise you'll be one of these dreadful people that become paranoics. Because the world only pressures you (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Contentment... The death is there. If I, somehow or other, make a compromise, that is different thing. But I don't like to die. There is old age. I don't want to be old, but if I make a compromise that is a different thing. But my desire is not to become old, not to become attacked by disease, not to die. These are my desires. So I can make some compromise if unable to solve the problem. That is a different thing. But these are the problems.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bob: I was cold before. (break) (Loudspeaker in background is very loud) Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions.
Prabhupāda: No, that is my mission, that people should understand the science of God. Because I am convinced that it's a fact. That without again cooperating with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I give this example many times. Just like a screw from the machine fallen down, it has no value. The same screw, when it is again attached with the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Without God, as part and parcel small screw, what is the value? No value. We should again come back to the position of becoming a screw. That is our mission.
Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. Well, his reason for coming he said, you may find humorous, was to come..., he heard the hippies were in Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bob: He heard that hippie... (break) ...I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. And he had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he'll come back tomorrow to see devotees. But let me tell you. This is confusing. When he was young...
Prabhupāda: He's Indian?
Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well.
Prabhupāda: Helium gas. So that helium gas has entered within the balloon and it is floating. (laughter) So if the helium gas can float, cannot God float? If helium gas has so much power, God is less than helium gas or He is more than helium gas? So what is the difficulty to understand? God says, "I enter." So similarly, the helium gas enters and it makes possible that it floats. So what is the difficulty to understand? I see in my eyes. So He can become big helium gas. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: (BG 7.8) "I am the taste of the water." Water is important. We are drinking water for the taste. That taste is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, if you explain this law of gravitation, which we have discovered, is Kṛṣṇa, prove it by your scientific knowledge, that will be your service. Actually that is a fact. That is the fact. But you have to explain, just like I have given you this example. This is scientific. As you can float a balloon by creating helium gas, so there must be some gas like that; Kṛṣṇa enters into each and every planet or universe and it floats, that's all. They, not only the planets are floating, the universes are also floating. So you accept this theory or not? If not, clearly explain.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are much bigger.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This morning.
Prabhupāda: Bigger or smaller, it is always dangerous. Big fire or small fire, fire is fire. It will burn. That's all. In a... Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given this example: this fire, debt and disease. Never think big or small. They are always dangerous.
Brahmānanda: Fire...?
Prabhupāda: Fire, disease and debt. How he instructed us. If you take loan from somewhere, interest compounded, one day it will become so big, unmanageable by you. Similarly fire may be very, a spark, but gradually it will so increase, oh, blazing fire. Disease also. Now there is little pain. Now, if it increases, it becomes tuberculosis. So therefore he has said: Never neglect these things: fire, or smaller or higher." They're always dangerous. (pause) There is a, in India, there is a proverb, hīrā and khīrā. Hīrā means diamond and khīrā means cucumber. It has no value, a few cents. And diamond is very valuable. But if some, somebody steals khīrā, he's also criminal, and one steals hīrā, he's also criminal. The punishment is equal. If he says: "I have stolen one khīrā. What is the value of it?" But by law, he's criminal. Never mind. (pause) (break) ...that he'll be happy in that way.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maybe they don't like the salt.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, frog is conspicuous by absence. There is no frog. Therefore that example is given. They have never seen what is the ocean. (laughs) So all these scientists, they are frogs. They have never seen what is the kingdom of God. Therefore this example, "Doctor Frog." Doctor frog is never visible in the ocean. They are visible only within this circle, well. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This example is available in Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in nyāya-śāstra. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. Kūpa means well, and maṇḍūka means frog. "The frog in the well." The frogs, sometimes they are in river also, in bank of the rivers. But never in the ocean.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The environment is not suitable. They are fresh water species.
Prabhupāda: Well, they are also aquatics. They also live in water. But they are unfit for living in ocean water. So many varieties of life, different living entities meant for different purposes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, illusion, these are illusions. Āja-gala-stana-nyāya is applied for these rascals, those who are thinking that from matter life is coming. Exactly the same. They are thinking that here are nipples, there will milk come. Let us milk here.
Brahmānanda: But they are not getting, they are saying maybe in the future.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in future, yes. (laughter) In Sanskrit logic all these examples are there from nature's study.
Brahmānanda: Simple.
Prabhupāda: Simple, yes. Another is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. Nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya, just like sometimes if somebody says, "Mother, when you were a child, you were naked. Why do you put cloth now?" Nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. The mother was naked when she was a child. Therefore she should remain naked still. That is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya.
Brahmānanda: What is that in connection?
Prabhupāda: It has connection, if somebody was not very important and now he has become important, so the logic is how this man can be important? This logic. That because the mother was naked in the childhood, therefore she should not put on any garment. This is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. We change according to the circumstances. You cannot say that this must remain like this.
Karandhara: That would blow up the planet. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Water can be counteracted by fire or air. Everyone knows it. So you do it, suspension. So this is for you mystic power. You can talk all nonsense, but you cannot act against it. Therefore it is mystic power. So similarly, there are so many things. That is acintya-śakti. You cannot think of even. By nature's way, immediately the sun rises—no more mist. All finished. A little temperature increase of the sun, all finished. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. This example is given in the Bhāgavata. Nīhāra, this is called nīhāra. Just like nīhāra is immediately dissipated by bhāskara, by the sun, similarly, if one can awaken his dormant devotion, then all finished, all his reaction of sinful activities, finished. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. You just create... You calculate sun is composition of this chemical, that chemical. Just create one sun and throw it. Simply theoretical future, bluff and juggling of words, that's not good.
Prabhupāda: But you put the iron in the fire...
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual.
Mrs. Wells: And how long do you think this takes to...
Prabhupāda: So long you keep in spiritual activities.
Mrs. Wells: For a young man or a young woman, beginning?
Prabhupāda: Well, I say that there is every chance of falling down. That is up to you to keep fit. Otherwise there is chance of falling down. But even he falls down, whatever he has done, that is permanent.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They say, "All is instinct."
Prabhupāda: You say. They say, all rascals say. But actually this is independence, but because they're animals, they are directed by nature, more or less. Just like they do not... My point is they do not misuse independence as much as a human being does. You see. Just like a tiger. He is to eat animals, killing animals. He does not come to your orchard to steal your fruits. But you, rascal human being, you eat fruits and animals both. Animal, that is instinct. Animal... Suppose if you put—I've given this example many times—a bag of rice on the street. Many birds will come. But he will eat some grains, five grains, ten grains and twenty grains, as much he can eat, and go away. But you do the same favor to the human beings, there will be fight. Everyone will try to take some more quantity in the house and stock it. Therefore, the human being is more responsible for sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: So God could not... Kṛṣṇa says: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo... (BG 18.66). That God can, without dying Himself, He can immediately and, I mean to say, vanquish all sinful action. Why He should be killed for that purpose? Just like the Pūtanā gave Kṛṣṇa poison. But Pūtanā was killed. And Kṛṣṇa was never ki... Kṛṣṇa cannot be killed by poison. Even Kṛṣṇa's devotees are not killed by poison. Prahlāda Mahārāja. If we discuss in detail, we create animosities. Therefore we do not discuss because Christian religion is followed by large number. We do not wish to make... We say yes. He says: "Son of God." We accept it. That's all. To accept a person God, that requires great evidences from śāstra. Especially. And when he's present, He will prove the statement of the śāstra. Then we accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu, God. There are evidences... (break) You see. We don't allow anybody to pass on as God because we are presenting real God. We must make process. The real process is to kill him. But that much power we haven't got. We cannot do that. Otherwise, we would have done so. Nobody should be allowed to claim as God. And severe punishment for him. Kṛṣṇa has shown this example. (break) We explain two, three lines from Bhāgavatam. How much people appreciated. So we have to preach like that, the substance. Not the sentiment. But if we cannot, the saṅkīrtana is sufficient. (break) ...anumāna-pramāṇa. Anumāna, hypothesy, and pramāṇa, śāstra-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa. evidences from the Vedas. Evidences from authorized persons. And anumāna also. That is not good evidence. But even if you take anumāna, that if I make... This table is created by somebody. It is all right. But to find out that somebody is still further progress.
Prabhupāda: Purport?
Śrutakīrti: It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation, but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, "I am the Father." The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; actually He has nothing to do with this material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities.
Guest: Is modern science materialism, Prabhupāda? Is it materialism?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: All, all materialism?
Prabhupāda: Just dealing with earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all.
Guest: And in this time, modern science, you know, physics, chemistry, mathematics; is this all materialism?
Prabhupāda: All materialism.
Guest: All materialism.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual.
Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence. She has complained, "It is also killing." Supposing it is killing. Actually it is not killing. Supposing it is killing. This killing and keeping organized slaughterhouse killing is the same thing. Just see. People have become so degraded.
Ambassador: This is sophistry.
Prabhupāda: They give this example that: "You also kill vegetables, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re... They, they were Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So... And in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and... What can I say? You are government man. (laughs) You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal?
Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Ambassador: ...you have to organize slaughterhouses.
Prabhupāda: Then, then that is the, our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture.
Haṁsadūta: But the point is Vedic, Vedic conclusion is...
Prabhupāda: No, but, apart from Vedic conclusion, this example, that practically, when I go from this apartment to another apartment, so this apartment does not become another apartment. I go from this apartment to another apartment. He's missing that "I". Or "you". That is his nonsense.
Dr. Hauser: He's only talking about apartments.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his rascaldom.
Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean.
Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not, he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body.
Prabhupāda: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham (SB 7.9.45). Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only aim. Yan maithunādi. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing. The position of the sex, the... How nasty it is! Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasa-tīrtham. Vāyasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy... (break) gṛham andha-kūpam, ātma-pātam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhāgavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). Therefore in the Vedic system first brahmacārī, become brahmacārī. Learn how to avoid sex, celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life?
Professor: I have no answer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, our speculative knowledge, intellectual platform, is not helpful. We must receive knowledge from superior source, perfect source. That knowledge is perfect. Just like we give, generally this example, that to find out who is my father, my search out, research, will not help me, but if my mother says, "Here is your father," that is perfect knowledge because she's authority. Therefore, for perfect knowledge, we have to take it from the perfect authority, not by our speculative intellectual gymnasium. No, that will not help. Because our intellectual jurisdiction is very limited. That is Vedic process. Vedic process is not to acquire knowledge by ascending process, inductive process. Vedic knowledge is to receive knowledge by descending process, knowledge coming from authority. That, that you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter: evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Knowledge has to be received... Just like a child receives knowledge... He is inquisitive: "Mother, what is this? Father, what is this?" And mother informs him, "My dear child, this is is. This is this." So he is acquiring knowledge by descending process. And if the child wants to get knowledge independently, that is not knowledge. He'll touch the fire. Mother: "Don't touch, don't touch, my dear child!" But he does not know. He's thinking the fire as something eatable. So by the Vedic process, this experimental knowledge is no useful.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You are... You take me below the belt.
Prabhupāda: Yes, śānta-bhakta means the bhakta who appreciates the greatness of the Supreme, but does not take Kṛṣṇa as very intimate. That is śānta-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: How can, ah, can you imagine God without taking Him very intimately? These are two, I mean...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like... Intimately... Just like I can give this example, that you have got a great regard for me, but not as intimately as my other disciples.
Dr. Patel: Ah, that is possible. Because I am, I have not put on the order clothes.
Prabhupāda: This example is, I think, proper.
Dr. Patel: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their life for me.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: But you have got regard for me, but you cannot sacrifice your life for me.
Gupta: Donkey's load. Go on increasing, increasing.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this example is given: ass. For nothing, not for himself. He'll be given a little grass. The grass is available here. But still, he's engaged. Employment. Ass will reap, eat little grass. Grass is available everywhere. But still, he'll work for others, loading, overloading. This is ass. He has no sense, "So why I have taken so much overload? I can get grass anywhere. Let me remain free." But he has no such sense. Neither he will be allowed. (laughs) This is ass. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...there are many bābājīs. They are collecting cāpāṭis and smoking bidi, and have one or two women. That's all. It is going on. So they should be drawn: "Come on! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take the plough." Not that you become Rūpa Gosvāmī simply by smoking. They are thinking they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī lived like that. So they think by changing the cloth, loincloth, they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. And whatever nonsense they like, they can do. (break) ...taken and all these bābājīs should be employed, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and draw plough." Then it will be nice.
Yaśomatīnandana: They import a lot of beef from Australia.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Go on reading.
Indian man: Here also scarcity will start. Slaughtering means... (break)
Prabhupāda: This example is given. Suppose we are walking. This step, when I assure that "This is all right, it is not, it will not go down," then I take up this. Then again this. This example is given. Similarly, change of body like that. As soon as it is settled up what kind of body he is going to accept or which is being offered to him, daiva-netreṇa, by higher authority, then this man leaves this body and again enters in the womb of the body which he is destined to get. This is the process of death.
Yadubara: Is that immediate, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Immediate. Just like immediate I am walking. When it is fixed up, then I take up. Then when it is fixed up, then I take up, like this. Immediately.
Yaśomatīnandana: What about hell? How does the jīva soul go to hell?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They go. Those who are going to hell, that is fixed up very quickly. It doesn't take much time. Hell means he is getting the next body, hellish body. That's all. Suppose he is going to get the hellish body to become the worm of stool, so in that way he enters the worm, mother worm, to get the body and enjoy the hell. That's all.
Atreya Ṛṣi: If you can try to understand this example.
O'Grady: Oh, I can, understand.
Prabhupāda: What is that, salt? Salt example was... Explain.
Yogeśvara: What was your point?
O'Grady: I'm saying its difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different.
Prabhupāda: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty.
Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, there was a French philosopher, Voltaire. He said you should not simply criticize negatively, because this is the best of all the possible worlds there is. This is all we have. So they would criticize that our hope in the spiritual world is utopian. Better turn to cultivate the material world as best you can.
Prabhupāda: No, material world we can see that it is useless. Everyone sees. That I am giving, this example. Before, the Romans, they constructed this big, big building. Now what is the value of that? It has no value. Simply it is kept as sentiment, relics. That's all. So this will be also the same thing. So where is the utility? Spiritual, apart from spiritual, what is the value of your material activity? It is practical. Everyone can see. If one comes to Rome, they can see that these big, big buildings, they were very nice building at that time, very wonderful building, but what is the value of it now? Anyone can see. Any sane man can see. So why should we waste our energy in that way? If there is any valuable work, let us see. That is intelligence. To make another heaps of relics, is that very good sense? Nobody will go there even to urine or pass stool.
Prabhupāda: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God.
Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa-brahman is the higher form of, than...
Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa-brahman... Just like... Here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after...,
Guru-gaurāṅga: Geneva Lake.
Prabhupāda: Geneva Lake. And few step after French lake.
Yogeśvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French.
Prabhupāda: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one, and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say the cloudy sky. The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one, it is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say, "This is cloudy." (break) Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual.
Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu?
Prabhupāda: Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. It is external. Kṛṣṇa... Somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle. The another, ignite another candle, ignite another candle... Now, all these candles, so far light-giving power the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble because the candle power is the same.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Frenchman: (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior?
Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "savior"?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Frenchman: (French)
Yogeśvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being.
Prabhupāda: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering, so savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead.
Robert Gouiran: ...materialization. The process of materialization.
Prabhupāda: No, now, first of all, let us understand what is matter and what is spirit. Spirit is also energy, and matter is also energy. The matter, when it comes in contact with the spiritual energy, then it grows. Otherwise, it does not grow. Therefore the growing process depends on the spirit. Take this example, my body, your body. The spirit soul when it is in the womb of the mother, then it grows. The abdomen of the mother grows out. But if the spirit soul is not there, then it will not grow. There are many sex intercourse, but if the spirit soul is not there, the sex intercourse will not turn into pregnancy. Do you realize this?
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then how the material body grows? Because the spirit soul is there. Is there any denial?
Robert Gouiran: We call in a way, but...
Prabhupāda: You call in any way, but the fact is this that there is something, when in contact with that something, the matter grows. Otherwise it doesn't grow. That we call spirit soul. You may call it something else. That is a different thing. You can call in a different name, but matter grows not automatically. There must be in touch something with matter. Then it grows. This is a fact.
Prabhupāda: It may be temporary... That is struggle for existence. That is said here, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi kartayam (?), they are concocting in the mind that "I am healing," but it is..., there is no healing.
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Yogeśvara: You see, it's a question of perspective. In a suffering position you may say that some slight remedy is good, but you've not alleviated the suffering, the suffering is still going on. I remember one time Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave this example, it was very wonderful. You were saying the United States, they're very proud, "We have so many hospitals with very nice equipment, very, very modern hospitals." But factually that's not advancement, that's suffering. It's an indication that there is suffering going on. So depending on your perspective...
Prabhupāda: Now they're saying we have increased so many beds, that means suffering has increased. They are thinking that they have done so good in this so many hospitals, and so many beds have been increased but that means suffering has increased. Otherwise why is the necessity of the beds and the hospitals?
Robert Gouiran: Yes. It's not because some American hospital are not healer that healing does not exist.
Prabhupāda: No, no, they're trying, everyone is trying to heal, American or Englishman or European, it doesn't matter. Everyone is trying but there is no healing. That is our point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animals, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men, they are leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first, second, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is, who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth-class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth-class, less than fourth-class. Fourth-class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principles. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principles just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena... (SB 6.1.13) The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama, controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly... So the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. Human life means controlling. I give this example. Just like in the... In your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited.
Prabhupāda: At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's, Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says it's not the person important in this example. It's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam: (SB 1.3.28) "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted.
Karandhara: No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time.
Prabhupāda: So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. That will not appeal.
Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says from the medical point that's all right. But from the religious point...
Prabhupāda: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life...
Prabhupāda: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy.
Karandhara: Prabhupāda, the premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens.
Prabhupāda: That is also desire, to give up all desire.
Karandhara: Yes, it is.
Prabhupāda: That is also desire.
Prabhupāda: Factory.
Haṁsadūta: Employed at some factory. But very few people actually work on the land. And we can see so much land. No one is working. 'Cause by machine, they can work so quick on the land. (break)
Prabhupāda: This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself.
Prabhupāda: Jagannātha will be very much pleased upon you. Yes. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Little service to God is taken as great service. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. So we should try always to give the best service, best energy, and you become liberated. Actually we cannot give any service to Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. What is the value of our service? But He takes it seriously: "Oh, he is trying to give me some service." Otherwise what service He needs from us? Suppose He has created these big universes, what service we can give? By His will, He can create millions of universes. What service we can give? We... No. These are the chances of service, this Ratha-yātrā. God is so great, so big, how we can pack up in the ratha. But this is a chance, that you get Him sit on the ratha and prepare it, manufacture it. Because your energy is engaged for His service, that is accepted. So this example... Just like a small child eating lozenges, and out of that, if he offers father, "Father, take it," and father takes it very serious..., "Ah, very nice." And what is that lozenges to the father? It is nothing. But because the child offers to the father in love, father takes it very seriously: "Oh, you are so nice. Yes, yes, give me." That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: (BG 9.26) "A leaf, a fruit, a little water." What is the value of these? But yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "Because he is giving Me in faith and devotion, I accept it." And what is this one piece of leaf and a fruit for God? It is nothing. He is being served by many thousands of goddess of fortune. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambrahma-sevyamānam. Then what is the value of this leaf and flower and fruit? But still, He says, tad aham aśnāmi: "Yes, I eat them." And once God eats from your hand, then your life is successful.
Prabhupāda: ...atomic bomb there. Huh? (laughter) It is a burning mass of... Suppose it is a burning mass. So what atomic bomb will act there?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Atomic bomb normally acts as, ah, what happened is the particles floating in the atmosphere, like chemicals, chemicals, what happened is this explosion offers this, ah, fundamental particles like neutrons, electrons, they bombard further atoms which are already in the atmosphere. So one by one they knock out these smaller particles called electrons. They move very high velocity. There is a very tremendous energy, amount of energy released. So one... So suppose first atomic bomb, ah, the, ah, the energy-bringing substance like electron, neutron, hits another atom, and then it knocks out several of that sort, and then it makes a chain reaction, not stopping because..., and thereby several atoms they will knock each other, one by one, without stopping. Small particles, so much energy has got. But in the sun planet, where it is so hot, it is already probably more powerful that the atomic bomb itself.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this example. (laughs) What it will act, the atomic bomb, in the sun planet? Similarly, Brahmā might have possessed some power, but what is that power in comparison to Kṛṣṇa? Every power is derived from Him; so Brahmā's mystic power cannot act on Kṛṣṇa. (end)
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Jayatīrtha: New Dvārakā is leading the society in child production.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. But make them devotees. That is the real father and mother, who begets children and make him devotee. That is real father and mother. Otherwise cats and dogs. A Tulasī dāsa, he has written one poetry that "A son and the urine comes from the same way." Son... Son means it is born out of the semina. That also comes through the genital, and the urine also comes through the genital. So he is giving this example that "Putra and Mutra..." Mutra, means urine, and putra means son, comes from the same passage. So if the son is a devotee, then he's putra; otherwise he's mutra. (laughter) Otherwise he's urine. Very nice. Yes. Putra and mutra come from the same channel. If he's a devotee, then he's putra, otherwise he's mutra. (break) ...miseries are compared with the heat and cold. Mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). Śīta and uṣṇa. Uṣṇa means hot, and śīta means cold. They are pleasing and miserable in circumstances. Cold is very pleasing in the summer, and heat is very pleasing in winter. But same heat in summer is not pleasing, and same cold in winter, it is not pleasing. So what is the actual position of cold and heat? It is simply transforming as pleasure and pain according to circumstances. Otherwise it is neither painful, neither pleasing. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) ...has given me hundreds of such places but His order is "You cannot stay." (laughter) I'll tell you one humorous story in this connection. It is a little long. I don't wish to divert your attention. Very interesting story. That is also mentioned in the Bhagavad..., aniketa. One may have many nice places to live; still, he should think that "I have no place to live." That is one of the spiritual items.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, because you have no brain, therefore you cannot understand the rasas with Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual; that is not material. Ānanda-rasa. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). That is the Vedic statement. There is cinmaya. In the spiritual world there is ananda. You... You have no knowledge. You, due to your poor fund of knowledge, you think that in the spiritual world there is no rasa; it is simply void, negation of this rasa. Just like a diseased man. He is practiced to drink bitter medicine and pass stool on the bed and so many inconveniences, so if some of his friends says, "When you'll be cured, you'll be able to pass stool in the lavatory. You haven't got to, haven't got to pass stool..." Then he shudders: "Again I have to pass stool after becoming cured? Again I have to eat? No, no, this is not good. Make it zero." He has no idea what is the meaning of passing stool in healthy stage. It refreshes the body. We get good energy. That he cannot conceive. He thinks that "If there is passing of stool again, then it must be the same suffering as I am undergoing now in this condition." So the Māyāvādī's idea of spiritual life means negation of these material activities. But they have no idea that similar activities are there in spiritual life, but that is not material. That is their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore we are... You are not understanding Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtīv hlādinī-śaktir asmāt. That I am explaining for the last few days. That is not at all this material. So unless there is loving affair in the spiritual world, how here it is as perverted reflection? It is the reflection of the reality. The reality is there. That they cannot understand. That is also hinted in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "There is another feature, or another nature," paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyaḥ (BG 8.20), "which is sanātana, is eternal." Here the rasas, on account of being material, they are flickering. But there, real rasa is permanent. Here the loving affairs between two parties finish as soon as the bodies finish. But there, there is no question of finishing. Increasing. Ānandambudhi-vardhanam, increasing. Harer nāma... (Break)...in reality, "what I am," that can be understood through devotional service, not by karma, jñāna, yoga. But... Give this example, I mean to say, authoritative statement of Kṛṣṇa, that bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55).
Prabhupāda: So similarly, Kṛṣṇa may enter within anything, but still He is more important than anything. This is simultaneous. Aṇḍāntarasthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntarastham—Kṛṣṇa is within and without. That is Kṛṣṇa's position. Antaḥ bahiḥ avasthitam—in Kunti's prayers you will find that Kṛṣṇa, "You are within, and you are without, still nobody can understand." That is stated. What is our experience? Within and without. But Kṛṣṇa is both, within and without, and still we do not see. Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā—just like a person playing on the stage, and his relatives and others they cannot understand that Mr. Such-and-such is playing. They are seeing something else. He is playing before them, he is known to them, but he still cannot understand. This example is given, naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. So Kuntīdevī explained this. Did you not read Kunti's prayer? Kunti says, antar bahir avasthitaḥ. "You are situated within and without. Everywhere you are." But still the foolish men cannot understand. And why they cannot? Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. Just like one's father is playing on the stage, but because he is playing in a different role, or dressing in a different role, even the son cannot understand.
Śrutakīrti: Back to the start.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is like that. Goloka nadha(?). One is trying to go to back to home, back to Godhead. A little discrepancy... Mahārāja Bhārata? Yes, he became deer. Therefore we should be very careful. That is the instruction. Even Mahārāja Bhārata, he fell down. So therefore how much careful we should be. These are the instructions to become careful. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31), always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will save you. That Kṛṣṇa chanting and hearing, that will keep us safe. Example is given: just like a polluted woman is doing all household work, but she is always thinking when she will meet with her paramour at night. This example is... Similarly, we may be engaged in different material activities, but if we keep our faith in Kṛṣṇa, then it will save us. It is possible. Just like the example: the woman is engaged in household affairs very diligently, but she is always thinking when she will meet her paramour.
Prabhupāda: It is... Very simple answer is: when the mother certifies, "He is your father," that's all. You don't have to make research. That is futile. By research, you cannot understand who is your real father. You can understand your real father only by the certificate of your mother. That's all. Therefore our Vedic mantra says that religion and God cannot be manufactured by speculation. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yojayet. Just like this example, father. Father was existing before my birth. So after my birth, with limited knowledge I make research who is my father—you will never find your father. But if you take the certificate of your mother, that is there. Similarly, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā, things which are beyond our conception, that cannot be established simply by argument, logic, so-called science and philosophy, that is not possible. The same example: by argument, logic, science, philosophy you cannot ascertain who is your father. The only simple method and authorized method is to ask mother, and if she says, "Yes, he is your father..." Similarly, things which are beyond our conception, simply argument will be useless. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yo... Tarka means arguments. In another place it is said, tarka, argument, is futile. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ: "By argument, you cannot come to the right conclusion." You can argue in a way; I can argue a better way, he can argue in better way. That is not the system. That will not help. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). If you study scriptures, so in the world there are many varieties of scriptures. There is Bible, there is Bhagavad-gītā, there is Koran, there is so on, so on. So which one is correct? That also you cannot decide.
Dr. Judah: Oh yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So they are heavily loaded, and they agree. So these rascals are asses. They are simply heavily loaded, but they do not know why he should agree to bear so much load. That is ass. (laughter) They take great responsibility. You see? So they are asses. The ass does not know, "Why I am taking so much load? And the master will give me little grass. So grass I can get anywhere. Why I agree to take his load?" Therefore this example, ass, is given. He does not know his real interest. Mūḍha. If you bear some load, you must have some interest in it, but he has no interest, and he is carrying the load. Therefore ass.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all these social problems, then, in society are basically caused by them denying God. That is the ultimate...
Prabhupāda: No, because they are asses. Why don't you say like that? (laughter) Because they are big asses and people are following them. That is the misfortune. They are simply bluffing that "We are very great." Just like these scientists, they simply bluffing that "We went to the moon planet. We are doing this, doing that," and taking large salaries, but they are asses. And people are also asses. Therefore they accept, "Oh, he is a big man, cheating us very nicely."
Prabhupāda: Now big, big scholars, they have taken the trouble to write on Bhagavad-gītā. But nobody has taken the trouble to write on other scriptures like Bible or Koran. Nobody has taken. No scholar, no philosopher have tried to comment or study because they know it is not very important. Here is important. This is the proof, wisest. And that is only ABCD of God's knowledge. So people should take advantage. It is accepted indirectly. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā, in your country, English. Why they take trouble to read Bhagavad-gītā so carefully? Big, big scholars, philosophers, why? (break) It is the impersonal, cloth. So Śaṅkarācārya has tried to impress this fact, but the rascals followed in a different way. Just like a cloth, big cloth, that is impersonal. Now, you cut it into coat. It becomes like person. So similarly this whole material world is impersonal, but because we have taken a certain portion of it and make my body, it looks like person. And God is not like that. He is spiritual person. He has nothing to do with material. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). What Śaṅkarācārya impressed, that they are after demigods, so "The demigods, they are not actual person. Real person is Nārāyaṇa." That is Śaṅkarācārya's version. Nārāyaṇa... You will find in his comment on the Bhagavad-gītā. First word he writes, nārāyaṇaḥ paro 'vyaktād: "Nārāyaṇa has nothing to do with this material world." And he accepts in his comment, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ: "That Nārāyaṇa has appeared as Kṛṣṇa." And he has given specific name of His father as "the son of Devakī and Vasudeva" so that nobody can misidentify. If you have got Śaṅkara's bhāṣya, commentary on Bhagavad-gītā, you bring it I shall show you. (break) Kṛṣṇa also confirms. That verse, which we were reading last evening... Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: (BG 9.4) "This jagat, this material world, is impersonal. And that is My energy. Therefore the whole world is resting upon Me, but I am not there. As person, I am not there." This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like the sunshine is spreading all over the universe, but the sun is aloof. Take this example. Not that because the sunshine is here, we are now getting, the sun has come here. The sun is shining from the distant place. He is aloof. Similarly, God is person and His shining is all this creation. That is impersonal.
Prabhupāda: Then you must suffer. There is no question, "maybe."
Devotee (5): When we fell down we were thinking, we could enjoy like that, in the same way?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is foolishness. And we are making our plan how to enjoy. That is our foolishness. And Kṛṣṇa says "You give up all these nonsense plans. Come to Me."
Devotee (5): Is this example proper, that a son is being well taken care of by the father, but sometimes he's thinking, "I can enjoy more some other way?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I change the topic? Last, day before yesterday, morning, Prabhupāda said that plants are more highly developed than the fish or the aquatics. But someone may ask what about the dolphins and the seals. They are regarded as very intelligent and highly developed.
Prabhupāda: Every living entity has a particular type of intelligence which is greater than the other.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, in the evolutionary cycle. Talking about the...
Prabhupāda: No, evolutionary, cycle, the body may change, but every living entity has got a special advantage upon the others.
Prabhupāda: All right, nature is existing, but our proposition is that without father, how nature can give birth? If the woman is existing, the man must be existing. Just like in your country it is experienced that a girl has given birth to a child. Nobody knows who is the father. But still, it is accepted that she was pregnanted by a man, that is... You cannot say. It may be missing, but you have to accept, not that this girl is giving birth child without any union with a man. You cannot say that.
Bahulāśva: Sometimes they say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these examples are only valid because we're people and therefore we're...
Prabhupāda: So you are people because you are nonsense. Say that, "Because you are nonsense. Why do you say people? You do not have any common sense even, that a mother gives birth to a child without a father."
Paramahaṁsa: Actually, Prabhupāda, just one month ago I read a book in Swedish, and they actually say there's three cases in Sweden where children were born without a father.
Prabhupāda: All right, let him satisfy there. But we have no such experience. We cannot accept his theory. He may be a single man to believe that. But no sane man will believe that. But we have got this answer. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Prakṛtiḥ, nature, is working under My direction." In the Brahma-saṁhitā: sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvana vibharti... (Bs. 5.44). bhuvanāni durgā, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Icchānurūpam. The nature is working under the direction of God, Govinda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And add mercury.
Paramahaṁsa: Is first the metals mixed together?
Prabhupāda: I do not know that. (laughter)
Paramahaṁsa: I'll give you all the profits.
Prabhupāda: I can give you suggestion. This example is given by Sanātana Gosvāmī.
- yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti
- kaṁsyaṁ rāsa-vidhānataḥ
- tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena
- dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛnāṁ
This is the definition, that "As kaṁsya, the bell metal, by manipulating with mercury, it becomes gold, similarly, a person by the process of dīkṣā, initiation, be becomes a brāhmaṇa. This is the example he has given. Yathā kāñcanataṁ yāti. Kāñcanatam means gold. Rāsa-vidhānataḥ, by process of mercury manipulation. Why he has not taken other metal? This is in the śāstra. And the scientists—I do not know—they say that some, what is called, molecules? Some molecules added with mercury, it can be turned into gold.
Bahulāśva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress.
Bahulāśva: This way.
Prabhupāda: I have faith in you. (break) Now, I give sometimes this example. Just like you go to a barber shop, and you put your neck like this, and he is with the razor. So unless you have faith, "No, he is good man. He will not cut my throat," how can you do so? So faith is the beginning. If you have no... If you say, "No, I have no faith in you," then you cannot be cleansed.
Baradrāj: That example became very clear when we went to India. (Prabhupāda & devotees laugh) Because the barbers are so, they look like they could cut your throat.
Bahulāśva: You have to have a lot of faith.
Prabhupāda: He can do that, but you must have faith. Otherwise no shaving. So many... Suppose you are going to some unknown place. Now we are purchasing, paying two thousand dollars, ticket. But where is the guarantee that you will go there? You are paying first money, but there is no guarantee that you will go there. Then how do you get the ticket? How do you get on the plane unless, without faith? So faith, without faith you cannot move an inch. It must be there. (break) ...believe, "No, no, this ticket is issued by the Pan American. They are good company, and so many people are going. So I will go also." That's all. So faith. You never went there, neither you know whether it will be possible to go there. But still, you have to do. That is faith.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): Sun has no...
Indian man (2): Let him finish.
Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Your "God has no form"—I am trying to explain to that. Now, you say, your reason, the sarva-vyāpaka. Sarva-vyāpaka, I am giving this example. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but wherefrom the sunlight is coming, it has got a form. So the sarva-vyāpaka, that energy is there. That is called Brahman. That is coming from Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (3): But what is that sun?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is example. It is example that this sarva-vyāpaka-prakāśa is coming from the sun globe. So sun globe is localized. Everyone can see. And this prakāśa is coming from Him. Similarly, the sarva-vyāpaka energy is extended everywhere, but it is coming from Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is... That is... We learn from śāstra,
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattva yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
The Absolute Truth is manifested in three ways: impersonal Brahman, and all-pervading Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead-brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate—but they are one and the same. This is the verdict of the śāstra. So we can understand from this example that the sun is localized. Everyone can see. At the same time, sunshine is all-pervading, and within the sun globe there is a predominating deity. He is a person. Similarly, originally God is person, and then, when He expands, all-pervasive, that is Paramātmā. And when He expands by His energy, that is Brahman. This is understanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti. Now somebody, they finish their business by realizing the impersonal Brahman, and somebody finishes his business by realizing the localized Paramātmā, yogis. Jñānīs, yogis. And the bhaktas, they come to the real, original source of everything, Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference.
Prabhupāda: He is another rascal. He takes so much time to answer. (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of the "devil citing scripture," Prabhupāda, is very common.
Prabhupāda: Devils, all devils.
Harikeśa: They wanted to write an article about this for BTG, and everybody was sitting around giving these examples.
Prabhupāda: Yes, think over. Write article. If there was no life who is at a certain stage in the womb, wherefrom the movement comes, if there was no life?
Harikeśa: They say it develops to the point...
Prabhupāda: But why it does not develop in a dead child, rascal? The same child, if it comes out dead, why the movement does not develop?
Harikeśa: Well, that one already developed properly and then died. That child already developed properly.
Prabhupāda: No, the process is the same. It was not moving. At a cetain stage it is moving. Similarly, if it is not moving, then wait for a certain stage; it will move. Why it is decomposed?
Harikeśa: But that dead child was moving and then died.
Prabhupāda: How it became dead, nonsense? The condition is the same, no movement. So how do you say "dead"? Why do you say "dead"? The distinction is it was not moving, and it is now not moving, so why do you call "dead"? In such a foolish society, how people can be happy?
Akṣayānanda: You mean He eats fire in His representation as the fire-god?
Prabhupāda: No representation. As He is. He never assumed as fire-god. He was boy and playing, and there was fire and He ate it. That is God, not that He became a fire-god. What is fire-god? Thousands of fire-gods are staying on the nail of His feet. Why He should become a fire-god? Mahat-padam. Kṛṣṇa's another name is mahat-padam. The whole energy of material world is on His feet. Samāsrit ye pada-pallava-plava mahat-pada puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ. So they attend maṅgala-arati?
Guṇārṇava: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They do?
Devotee: Yes, they do.
Prabhupāda: Very good. (break) ...there are cycles. The cycles are more dangerous than the motor car.
Haṁsadūta: Because you can't hear them.
Prabhupāda: No, no, hear... Gives you dash. You see? From the behind. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...God, they do like that. They give this example, "In such and such yajña, ṛṣis were eating meat; therefore we shall eat meat." In the Rāmakrishna Mission, sannyāsīs, they say like that. (end)
Man: Yes, in that last room, on that other side.
Prabhupāda: ...once. Kīrtanānanda Swami has come, he reported that sometimes these European and Americans, they do not like our version, and sometimes they purchase and tear the books, hm? And still they purchase! (laughs) That is the beauty.
Dr. Patel: Europeans...
Prabhupāda: No, no. In America. Kīrtanānanda was saying. They tear these pages, and again still they purchase. This example is given. Just like hot sugarcane juice. Because it is hot, it cannot be taken. But one cannot avoid tasting it. (laughter) Sugarcane juice hot. Because we speak everything against their so-called knowledge, and still they want to taste it. Hot sugarcane juice.
Dr. Patel: Your this Bhāgavata commentary is really wonderful. I am critically studying now.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Dr. Patel: Second reading of mine. On the first reading I just...
Prabhupāda: Yes, they read our books for the purport.
Dr. Patel: But you have collected from, I mean, two, three, four or five...
Prabhupāda: Dimmock said that "Here is the commentation who has practiced devotion in his life."
Harikeśa: He protected Bāṇāsura.
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? That means that proving that Śiva is a rascal. He gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use? Then nobody should become Śiva's devotee. That is the conclusion. Because he gives permission to somebody else to kill his devotee. They are trying to prove Lord Śiva is a rascal. What do you think? Huh? If I want your permission, please give me your permission, I shall kill your son, and if you say, "Yes, I give my permission," then are you not a rascal? By this example they are making Lord Śiva a rascal, that he has no common sense even.
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: No, if this proposition is there, that Lord Śiva gives permission for killing his devotee, then who will become his devotee? Huh? Is it not?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No sane man will become his devotee. All the manufactured foolish statements, just see. Any commonsense man will immediately say, "Then Śiva is a rascal; he cannot give protection to his devotee." What do you think? Huh?
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dormant implies He was active.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Was active, He is active, but you, you rascal, you cannot see. You cannot say, "Once He was active. Now He is no more active. He has finished His activity." That you cannot say. Dormant? What do you mean by dormant? Huh? Dormant means potential. He can act. And He is acting. That acting you have to learn, how He is acting. He appears to be not acting, but He is acting. That is knowledge. Just like airplane is running. A intelligent man knows that "The pilot is there. He is acting. Therefore it is running." And a foolish man will say, "The airplane is going automatically." That is the question of observation. A foolish boy... I have given this example many times, that I was thinking that in the fan there is a ghost. But the idea is, there must be somebody. Although I was a child... I could not explain how the fan is running in my childhood. I was thinking there must be some ghost. And in the gramophone box I was thinking there must be one man within this box. So this is foolish thinking, but I was convinced that without somebody, it cannot sing or it cannot run. Even one is very innocent child, he can think like that. So whole thing is going on, prakṛti, the activities of material nature... Just like there was cloud and rain. Now it is not raining. So there is activity already. It is being managed. So you cannot say that God is dormant. He is acting because His creation is acting, and God says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: (BG 9.10) "Under My direction the nature is working." How you can say He is dormant? The nature is working?
Prabhupāda: But for us there is nothing material. We have no such vision as "material" and "spiritual." Material means when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right. That is material. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer. So, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything Kṛṣṇa's. So when we forget Kṛṣṇa's right on everything, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material; everything spiritual. Everything is generated by Kṛṣṇa's energies, and there are two energies, material energy and spiritual energy. So in the material energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is less or nil. And in spiritual energy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is prominent and very acute. I think I give this example somewhere. Just like this nail, and just little below, there is skin. Both of them are my body, but in the skin there is sensation; in the nail there is no sensation. But both of them are coming from the same source, the body. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa's. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. Everything is Bhagavān but appears like different to the different vision. Therefore we take everything.... kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything..., in everything there is Kṛṣṇa's relationship. So there is no question of giving it up. Why shall I give it up? This is Kṛṣṇa's property. Why shall I give it up, prāpañcikatayā buddhyā, by mistaking it as material? Kṛṣṇa-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. So these Māyāvādīs, they say the brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "This material world is false, and Brahman is reality." And we don't say that. Everything is reality because it comes from reality. When it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is unreality. It is not properly being used. Otherwise there is no such thing as unreality, because it is coming from reality. So why shall I give it up, tyāga? Neither tyāga, neither bhoga. Everything utilize for Kṛṣṇa. This is our way. Any question on this regard? I saw your wife also. She is here.
Indian (2): We say both are right, parā and aparā.
Prabhupāda: We do not say. We say this material world also the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). He claims, "It is Mine," so how you can reject it? We cannot say anything Kṛṣṇa's is false. There is some purpose. I give this example, this finger: here is sensation, and here is no sensation. But both of them belongs to my body. Matter means where there is no Kṛṣṇa sensation. That is matter. And as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa sensation, it is spirit. Our Gosvāmīs' formula is that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has got relation with Kṛṣṇa. So.... Eh?
Dr. Patel: That is the highest fulfillment of prema-bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi..., mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo. Mumukṣubhiḥ, this mokṣa-vāñchā, they said, "It is false." So mumukṣu.... parityāgo phalgu vairāgyaṁ kathyate. It is not real vairāgya. He does not know what is vairāgya.
Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavas.... Veda gives to take care all your mind, sensation, body, from that...
Prabhupāda: Everything Kṛṣṇa's.
Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are..." The government will see. That is criminal. So everything.... Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā... He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam. You'll see this verse.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9).
Devotee: It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda(?).
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not sanction.
Rāmeśvara: Then how is it going on?
Prabhupāda: But you insist, so Kṛṣṇa, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?
Rāmeśvara: I never heard it.
Prabhupāda: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that.
Rāmeśvara: Oh. It is actually Kṛṣṇa's mercy...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. This is the disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, he is bewildered, vimūḍhātmā, on account of false egotism. Just like we are inviting everyone: Please come and learn Bhagavad-gītā. "Huh! Bhagavad-gītā, let us go the sea and swim." Surfer, surfer? They are taking so much trouble. I have not see here; in Hawaii. For hours together, struggling with waves. I've seen it South Africa also. Very fond of this surf sporting. So they are wasting so much time and laboring so hard just to become fish. Yes, they are going to be fish. Because at the time of death they'll think of "How I am jumping in the water, surfing." That is natural. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6). Because he has constantly thought over his sporting, naturally he'll think of sporting in the water. So this gross body when finished, his mental, intellectual and false ego will carry him to become a fish, and he'll have full freedom how fish is jumping within the water, going against the waves. A small fish can go against the waves. There is a Hindi poetry that a small fish can go against the big waves, whereas a big elephant is washed away. This is practical. Bahiya jāya(?) gajarāja. Gajarāja means, gaja means elephant. In big waves, if you put an elephant, he'll be washed away. But a small fish, he'll go against the waves. He's expert. This example is given that the fish, although he's very small, he's off the water. He's under the water. Therefore he's so powerful. He can go against the waves. That means āśraya.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. And he said, "These are all...," what is called? Mythology. Why mythology? Why do you think God like you? God is all-powerful; He can do anything. That is real faith. That means you have no faith. "If God can do which tallies with my activities, then I shall believe." What you are? Nonsense. This is their general argument. How we can believe this? And why not believe this? You are seeing so many wonderful things. I gave this example to another man, that there is a coconut tree. Now find out where is the pipe and pumping so that the water is pushed. Show me. You have no idea that such a high height, how water is going there. And full of water. How the water is transferred there? Show me the pipe and pump. You have got the idea, that with pipe and pump we can raise the water. Where is that pipe and pump? Show me. Every day, every moment, we are seeing so many wonderful things. How you are thinking.... "I am Dr. Frog. Pacific Ocean may be four feet. All right, five feet. Make compromise, ten feet." (laughter) Rascal. If you think for many millions of years, then you'll have no solution. Panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo (Bs. 5.34). It is not possible in that way. They have no idea of God.
Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: (BG 4.1) "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there, otherwise how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam, "unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramātmā is the sun globe, and Bhagavān is the sun-god. This is, the sun is one example. From this example, we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside:) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). As heat and light, all of them are the same... In the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramātmā. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramātmā, he can (not) understand Bhagavān, but if you understand Bhagavān, then you understand Paramātmā, Brahman, everything.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then in terms of advancing in spiritual life, actually we can't say that the sanātana-dharma is fatalistic. That there is actually endeavor towards progress.
Prabhupāda: Fatalistic... I have given this example also. Just like a man is condemned by the law court to be hanged. Nobody can check it. Nobody can check. Even the same judge who has given this verdict, he cannot check. But if he begs for the mercy of the king, he can check it. He can go all above the law. Therefore, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said that destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa for His devotees. Otherwise it is not possible. If one is condemned to death, Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise, it is falsehood when Kṛṣṇa.... Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66)," I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful activities." Suppose you are to be killed by somebody on account of your sinful activity. Nobody can check it, ordinarily, but Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa's telling false, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi, "I shall give you protection." So therefore our business should be only to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And if you artificially want to be more happy by economic development, that is not possible. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the proof.
Sadāpūta: Actually, this couldn't come about by just chance, because the number of possibilities...
Prabhupāda: There is, but he takes it as chance. All the possibilities taken together he is given by God. That he does not know. He takes it as chance. But there is no question of chance. It is the gift of God.
Sadāpūta: Next example, this is another example taken from music. This example is Mozart. Mozart was a musician. He composed symphonies. And in that quote which-I'll just summarize it instead of reading it—he explains how it was that he created these symphonies. He explained that actually what happened was that ideas just came into his mind, melodic themes and so on, and he says "Whence do they come I do not know, and I have nothing to do with it." And actually what would happen was that an entire symphony would just blossom into his mind, and he wouldn't even know where it was coming from. So...
Prabhupāda: Unknown.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's due to the combination of the modes, as a result of the mixing of the three modes in different percentage. So we can even just mention like that in this,
Prabhupāda: That you can take from the authoritative statement you find.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So shall we make an attempt to give these examples like this, or just mention it? What's better? What do you think?
Rūpānuga: Well, one thing, the biologists haven't even really counted up many so-called species themselves. So why should we get into such..., worry about the details? They don't have the detail themselves.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, not details, but we wanted to show that there is such thing as the three modes of nature, they are working, not just by chemical combination these things are produced. We want to say that the three modes are there. Because of the working of the...
Prabhupāda: No, the three modes induces chemical composition. Then RN, DNA (laughs)...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But this is very unique in science itself. It's a very novel concept just from scientific level.
Devotee: The scientists have a desire to explain things. They like to see that you can explain so many different things. Perhaps it doesn't have any real utility to explain,
Prabhupāda: So, as far as possible, you can give explanation from Bhāgavatam. Otherwise, how you can...
Devotee: So by giving these examples then they might think this has very good explanatory power, and they will therefore accept it, they will (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: So the general division in the higher planetary system is the devatās, beginning from sun, moon and other planetary systems, they are in modes of goodness prominent. Less, below that, bhūr bhuvaḥ, they are passionate, and below that, they are ignorant.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they do that. But it is a fact that copper and tin and mercury proportionately mixed will produce gold.
- yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti
- kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ
- tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena
- dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām
This example is given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. As kaṁsya... Kaṁsya is mixture of copper and tin, bell metal. When it is properly treated with mercury, it becomes gold. Similarly, a human being properly treated by initiation, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. This example has been given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. Tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām. Nṛṇām, he says, "of all human beings." He doesn't say a particular class or particular country. Śuddhyanti prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Everyone can be purified by the initiation process, by expert spiritual master. That is accepted in the śāstra.
Prabhupāda: No, just like a machine, it can be complicated. But as soon as you put the plug, gada-gada-gada-gada comes. But the electricity is not complicated, the machine is complicated.
Rūpānuga: So it doesn't work unless there is some....
Prabhupāda: Without electricity it does not work. But the machine is complicated, not the electricity.
Rūpānuga: One thing is that the machine, in this example, gets complicated or it becomes...
Prabhupāda: Complicated means it is made in different parts with matter, that's all. But it cannot work without the electric power.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the conclusion is that matter, when touched by life or spirit, actually it becomes complicated.
Prabhupāda: Not complicated, it is already complicated. It works.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, matter itself is not complicated. Matter itself is not complicated.
Prabhupāda: Yes, complicated. When they are combined together.
Interviewer: Do you think mankind is making some improvement?
Prabhupāda: No. Materially they may be doing some improvement, but that is not spiritually important. Just like I give sometimes this example: just like a dog, animal, is jumping with four legs on the street, and we are going fast with four wheels, so that does not make any difference. The difference is the dog cannot understand about his spiritual identity. A man can understand if he's properly trained up. If the man is denied that facility, then he remains in the ignorance of an animal like cats and dogs.
Janice Johnson: I'd like to know, this is your first visit to Washington? Is that right?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Janice Johnson: Who have you visited with while you've been here? Have you stayed here, or have you gone out and...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am in the Western country for the last ten years, sometimes Europe, sometimes America. I have got more than one hundred temples all over the world, so I go and visit and instruct my disciples about this movement.
Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission,
- pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma
- sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
- (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126)
He has to preach in every village and every town on the surface of the globe about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So our business is... Just this example I have given, that there is fire. I do not know the language. Still, I have to call and take help. So I am doing like that. There is a story. In Calcutta when the Britishers were establishing themselves, so one clerk was working in the office and some monkey came and scattered the office files and everything. So his boss came, he asked him, "What is this, why you?" So he cannot explain, so he began to jump like monkey, that on account of the monkey coming within the room. So when the language is unknown we have to jump and show that the monkey came.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is so many times explained. Just like a child wants to do something. The father says, "Don't do it," I have said several times. Reluctantly, "All right, do it." I have given this example of my practical experience in 1925 or '26 when my son was two years old. There was a table fan, "I would like to touch it." And I said, "No, no, don't touch." This is child. So but it's a child. He again tried to touch it. So there was a friend, he said, "Just slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it, slowed the speed and he touched-tung! Then he would not touch. You see. So this sanction was given, "Touch it," reluctantly. Now when he gets experience and I ask him, "Touch again?" "No." So this sanction. All of us who have come to this material world, it is like that. Reluctantly. Therefore God comes again to inform these rascals that "Now you have tried so much, better give up this, come to Me again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Sanction was given, certainly, and he has experience, very bitter, but still he won't... This is obstinacy. Dog's mentality. The father has come personally. Now we have experimented everything—karma, jñāna, yoga, this, that, all nonsense. "Now I say..." It is said most confidential. Sarva-guhyatamam. "Better give up this job. Surrender to Me, come back to Me." So sanction was there, certainly. Without sanction they cannot do it. God created this. That is sanction.
Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is... Again this example (laughs). Two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these..."No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here," Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence... In industry also: land labor capital, organization, four things. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money-useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha (?), he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues.
Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hm. What is that? I have taken.
Tejiyas: "But in the management... But the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the Father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; actually He has nothing to do with this material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...ārati?
Tejiyas: Seven.
Prabhupāda: God is one. Others, they are... Just like president is one. Others are government servant. Similarly, God is one. There cannot be other God. Then he is not God.
Prabhupāda: That the any person, any living entity, he is not this body. That is the answer. So then two things. Suppose you are, I am, that I am thinking of this body, and at the same time I am thinking that this finger, I say, "My finger." Nobody says, "I finger." "My finger." Even a child he will say. So "My finger, my head, my legs." So what is that "my"? That is the question. The answer is negatively that that "I" or "my" is not this body. That is different from the body. Now what is the nature of that "I"? That is explained one after another, one after another, one, one. Because he has no idea. Every one of us... I am speaking, you are speaking. Theoretically we take, accept it that I am not this body. But practically I say, "I am this body." That is wrong. That has to be explained. And that is being explained. The question is one and the answer is one. There cannot be many questions or many answers. Answer is one. That answer is, Kṛṣṇa begins, that "As the body is changing, within our experience..." dehino'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Very nice example. We are changing bodies. When you were born, there was no beard. Clean shaved or no hair. So that body has changed. It is not the same body. In which body you came out of the womb of your mother, that was a small body. That was a different body. This example given there. This body is changing during your experience of life. Similarly, after death the body will change, but you will continue. This is self-realization. It is not very difficult. The example is there. It doesn't take much time. The answer is one, and it is realized, say, within some minutes. So Bhagavad-gītā begins from self-realization, that "I am not this body." That is actual position, that if I understand that I am not this body, factually, then what I am, that I am something beyond this body. That is explained in so many different ways. So the center is this, that I am not this body. The answer is one. But I cannot answer, the master will not answer according to the whims of the student. Then he is not master. Because answer is one.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Believe or not believe, that is another thing. But if you want to live worthy, then you have to study Bhagavad-gītā. You believe... Just like somebody believes or not believes in dehāntara, but nature's course will go on. Young man thinks "I'll remain young. I shall not become old man." He may believe like that, but he has to become old man. That is nature's law. So there is no question of "believe" or "not believe." If you believe, then you are benefited; if you don't believe, you go to hell. It is not the question of belief. I was speaking in South Africa in a university. So one gentleman, Arya-samāji said... When I was explaining tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, so he objected that "Why you bring Hindu belief?" "And, nonsense, it is Hindu belief?" It is said that kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: one boy is becoming young man. Is this for Hindu? It is not for the Muslim? And he said "Hindu belief." Such a fool he is. He said, "It is Hindu belief." Kṛṣṇa is giving this example. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam (BG 2.13). Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. So does it mean that Hindus only from kaumāra become yuvaka, and from yuvaka to old man, and the Muslims, they do not? It is science! You believe or not believe. If you don't take the fact, then your life is missing. What is the question? Two plus two equal to four—it is not Hindu calculation, Muslim calculation or Christian calculation. You cannot say that "No, according to our Muslim calculation, two plus two equal to five." Two plus two is always four, either for a Hindu or Muslim or Christian. So whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is for understanding of the human society. Why do you take: "It is Hindu belief. It is Indian belief"? It is science. That is our misfortune, that a science we are accepting as a kind of belief, faith. And that we are neglecting. That is our misfortune.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. At least your faith is increased. With faith you take a dip. Faith cure. And Ganges herself is purifying.
Guest (2): No. Is there special significance during this period? That is all the time.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... The significance is sādhu-saṅga, purification. Our Vedic principle is: whatever is enjoined in the Vedas, we should accept it without any argument. That is Vedic injunction. This example we give generally: just like śaṅkha. Śaṅkha is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic system, if you touch the bone of an animal, dead body animal, then you have to take bath immediately. But the śaṅkha is pure. Now, you cannot argue that "It is the bone of an animal. You say one place that 'Bone of animal is impure. You have to take bath; you have touched it,' and this śaṅkha is in their Deity worship? It is contradictory." But because it is stated in the Vedas, you have to accept. This is Vedic injunction. You cannot argue. There is no question of arguing. Just like cow dung is the stool of an animal. Even if we touch my own stool, I take bath. But cow dung, it is said, it is pure. If there is anywhere impure, you smear the cow dung; it will be pure. Now, you can argue that "It is stool of an animal. How it becomes pure?" This argument will not... So Vedic knowledge means don't argue. You have to accept it. Acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkena yojayet. Things... There are many things which is beyond your perception, so you have to accept the Vedic injunction. Then you are right. So if the Vedic injunction is: "In such and such moment you take a bath in the Ganges; you become purified," you take it. There is no question of argument. That is faith. Now faith must be there. Vedo-praṇihito dharmaḥ. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Everything is there. Can you find out this verse from the Sixth Canto?
Jagadīśa: I know the verse.
Gurukṛpā: They are so... They have no brain to even understand this. You cannot talk to them.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to do. Otherwise there is no meaning of preacher. Most thankless task. We want to save them, and they accuse us. My Guru Mahārāja used to give that example: A boy is flying kite, and he's going like this. He's just come on the edge of the roof. He is going to fall down. And somebody says, "Hey! What are you doing this for?" (shouts:) "Why you are checking me? Oh, my kite is gone, gone. I have gone back." This is going on. If you want to save them, they will accuse you that "My kite-flying is disturbed. Don't do this." "And why you are. Why...? You'll fall down." "Never mind. That is my business. Why you are checking me?" This example was given by my Guru Mahārāja. You want to save him. Who is a gentleman who will not save him? He is falling down next moment. That is natural. But he is angry. "Why you have checked my kite-flying?" So it is a different type of civilization, a different style of life. If you want to introduce they will accuse you, so many, like madmen. And still we have to do. That is preaching. You cannot expect very smooth life in preaching.
Gurukṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given the example of feeding a pill to a horse.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he may rise up to that position by endeavor. Then he will fall down. And I have given this example, Nixon and Indira Gandhi. This is factual. To come to take the post of prime minister, to become the president, is not easy job. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa, great hardship. Similarly, the Māyāvādīs, they also undergo severe austerities to become one with the Supreme, impersonalists. Any... I have given the... Karmī, jñānī, yogi, politicians, and everyone—everyone has got some aim. Many rich men, they commit suicide. So this is possi... This is the ultimate result of nondevotee. He may rise up by endeavor to certain position as he imagined, "This is the best position." Just like we are also trying to occupy the best position, to become associate of Kṛṣṇa, to live with devotees. We have got also some aim, and the nondevotees, they have also got aim. But the devotees will never fall down, while the nondevotee will fall down. And if devotee circumstantially, by chance, falls down—not like them-he'll be again picked up by Kṛṣṇa. This is the science, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A devotee's position is certain. Now, take for example my position. For ordinary karmī to possess so many properties all over the world and so many other things, money and everything, if karmī had to do it, how much hardship he had to go. And actually they are doing. Is it possible for one's life to acquire so many?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, even Birla doesn't have.
Prabhupāda: I have given this example, our court case, that the case would have been continued for years, but one day... Even though there was some difficulty, it is finished. So our enemies, they tried to block our march, but we shall kick on their head and progress our end—if we stick to our principles. These things... I have discussed this nicely. How do you think?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Practically...? Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very practical. Current. People like that, to read current...
Prabhupāda: This is fact. So always remain very, very faithful to Kṛṣṇa and guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Remain... So don't care for anything, any, the deprogrammer, and what are others? Eh? What are others?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. In Tehran the royalty, the court, is very interested in your teachings and philosophy. There is a prince and princess, very high and very rich, and they are regularly hearing, and they are now recently visiting our Bombay temple. They have come to Bombay, and they are really seeking for a teacher. And there is many intelligent people who are very interested. We are actively preaching and giving them Śrīla Prabhupāda's books.
Prabhupāda: It is plain fact. God is one. Why God should be Muhammadan, Christian, Hindu? That is not God. God is God. Gold is gold. This example I give always. Because a piece of gold is coming from some Muhammadan gentleman, does it mean it is Muhammadan gold? It is gold. It may come from any source, but one must know that it is gold, not imitation. That is wanted. If it is imitation, then it is Muhammadan gold, Hindu gold. And if it is real gold, it is neither Muhammadan nor Hindu. (end)
Bhavānanda: Oh, Parama... What's his name? (break)
Prabhupāda: ...make the whole land, people, very happy. You show this example all over the world, this example, in America. Don't spoil money. Show by example. Enough science and enough motorcar, that's all. No more wanted. This is wanted. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Bring water from the sky. Keep always land moist and green. This is wanted. It is not my desire. It is Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Here Vyāsadeva says, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). These rascals, they do not know. They do not consult śāstra, therefore manufacture. In Chandigarh so much land lying vacant. Thirty years already passed. And they are developing the cities. And another four hundred years will be required. The land is lying vacant. And they are making two governors, five commissioners, six ministers and..., drawing fat salary. This is government. Government means to draw fat salary at the expense of poor people. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Just like the rogues and thieves, they by force take money from us, these rascal, under some law, they'll take, this government. They will live at any cost. Never mind forty rupees (indistinct) a week. They have got cheap money. Print note and give him forty rupees. What is that? "You want forty rupees? Eh, take forty rupees." This is artificial inflation. They have got power to print notes. "Pay gold forty rupees." "No, that is illegal. Take paper." Means a cheating business from the government. He's giving him piece of paper, and the rascal is thinking, "I am making one thousand rupees." Formerly, in our childhood, we have seen a currency. They will offer, "What you want, gold, silver, or currency?" These three things were offered. If you want gold coins, take gold coins. If you want silver coins, take silver. And if you want currency, you take. We have seen it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Girirāja: "My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, You are known as Yogeśvara, the master of all mystic powers. So it is very easy for You to perform the impossible, as You have done many times in the past. By Your merciful glance You restored life to the boys and cows who had died by drinking the water of the Yamunā River which was poisoned by Kāliya. And You swallowed the devastating forest fire to protect the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. In the rāsa dance You expanded Yourself to be simultaneously present by the side of each gopī. And as guru-dakṣiṇā, You recovered the dead son of Your teacher. When the hunchback maidservant of Kaṁsa smeared You with sandalwood pulp, You made her straight and beautiful. And as a householder in Dvārakā, You expanded Yourself into sixteen thousand Kṛṣṇas and simultaneously satisfied all of Your sixteen thousand wives. When Sudāmā Brāhmaṇa offered You chipped rice, You transformed his poor cottage into a beautiful palace suitable for the king of heaven. And to satisfy Mother Devakī, You returned her six dead sons from the kingdom of Bali. To appease the Dvārakā brāhmaṇa, You also reclaimed his dead sons from Mahā-Viṣṇu. When Śrīla Prabhupāda sat with seven dollars under a tree in Tompkins Square Park, You transformed that tree into so many royal palaces, and You expanded that seven dollars into millions of dollars. And when Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke Your message, You turned the mlecchas and caṇḍālas into Your devotees. And when Śrīla Prabhupāda went all by himself to sell his Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam volumes, You expanded him into ten thousand loving salesmen who are working day and night without asking any salary, and You expanded his suitcase of books into fifty-five million pieces of literature in twenty-three different languages. And when Hare Kṛṣṇa Land was lost to the demons, You returned it to His Divine Grace. So from these examples we can understand that for You, the impossible is not difficult, but rather, You have performed so many impossible feats for Your devotees. Therefore if You desire, please give Śrīla Prabhupāda a new body."
Prabhupāda: Excellent. Very... Foundation, back to Godhead. I am getting little glimpse, He may agree to your prayer, yes.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Now stock books immediately.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is Jayapatākā Swami.
Prabhupāda: You print. They will pay you. Jayapatākā?
Jayapatākā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
| Page Title: | Tiny (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 24 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=83, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 83 |