Prabhupāda: So when Kṛṣṇa is directing, is it aimless? The whole cosmic manifestation, is it aimless? There is some purpose. Otherwise, why God has created, and He's directing? These people, they cannot understand it.
Yogeśvara: They'll challenge. They have arguments.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yogeśvara: They will say that: "If you..." Just like... Actually things... There is no order behind things. If you throw a ball against a wall...
Prabhupāda: Who is rascal throwing that ball? Who is that rascal? Throwing that ball? If you are giving that example, somebody's throwing ball, who is that rascal, throwing that ball?
Yogeśvara: Let's say someone who wants to prove there's no direction to the way..."
Prabhupāda: Rascal, if you, as soon as you say: "Throwing ball," somebody's throwing. How can you deny it? You give the example, "throwing ball," but throwing ball means somebody's throwing.
Bhagavān: The original thrower.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The motion is given by somebody.
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
Bhagavān: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
Prabhupāda: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point?
Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything...
Prabhupāda: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
Devotee: Well, that's what they say.
Prabhupāda: They say that rascaldom. That word say.