Third-class (Conversations 1968 - 1975)

Expressions researched:
"third-class"

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

own mind, we're running away.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that running away is the best sol... Suppose you are put in a prison house. The solution is to go out of it. If you want to make adjustment of the prison house, that is impossible. You may be a first-class prisoner or second-class prisoner, third-class prisoner, but you will remain a prisoner. But if you want freedom, then you must go out of the prison walls.

Interviewer: But I notice you have many, you seem to have a lot of young men who are part of your organization. These young men must face the material problems of today like the draft and Vietnam and everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 20, 1968, San Francisco:

Mālatī: They could go to another planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many places. The living entity is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as sarvaga. Sarvaga means he can go anywhere within this universe. He can go in the spiritual sky also. Sarvaga means including everywhere, if he likes. As I explained yesterday, last night, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). If he likes, he can go to the planets of the demigods, to the Pitrloka, he can remain here, or if he likes, he can go to the planet of Kṛṣṇa. He has got this freedom. Just like there are many government posts. You can select any one of them, but you must be qualified for that. So it is a question of qualification, how you can go to the planets of the demigods, how you can go to the planet of the pitṛs. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā (BG 14.18). If you develop your modes of goodness, then you go to the, promoted to the higher planets because in the higher planets, the third-class living entities are not allowed. Don't you see that in here also, in America, for permanent visa we have to undergo so many formalities? Why? The restriction is there, that American government cannot allow everyone to become a permanent resident here. Restriction. Similarly, in higher planets, only those who have developed the quality of goodness... The quality of goodness contains those eight principles: religiosity, truthfulness, cleanliness... So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā (BG 14.18). Sattva means quality of goodness. So one has to develop the quality of goodness. Not an upstart, simply having a play sputnik, he wants to go to the Candraloka, moon planet. It is not possible. What quality he has got? He will immediately die. Temperature is... (end)

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Prabhupāda: Oh, Hrishikesh. Hrishikesh is also one of the pilgrimage. And there is similarly Kurukṣetra near Delhi. Still that place is there. And that is a place of pilgrimage from the Vedic times. In the Vedas also it is stated, kuru-kṣetre dharmam yajayet. If you want to function in a religious ceremony, just go to Kurukṣetra. So it is a place of pilgrimage. Now the name is there. The adjective dharma-kṣetra, it is from Vedic age. Then the Pāṇḍavas and the Kauravas, they are historical persons. The history is there, Mahābhārata. Then where is the question of interpreting Kurukṣetra as "this body," and the Pāṇḍavas as "the senses"? Where do you get this opportunity to interpret? So these things are going on. But we object, "Why should you interpret in that way when the facts are there?" That means Bhagavad-gītā is very popular book. One has got his own philosophy. He wants to prove it through Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. There are so many interpretations, 664. Everyone thinks that "I can interpret in my own way." Why? Why this should be? We say, "No. You cannot interpret." Then what is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? The author of Bhagavad-gītā did not leave it for being interpreted by a third-class man. He is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord. He said everything clearly. Why an ordinary man should interpret His word? That is our objection. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. The MacMillan Company wanted to shorten.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Śāstra-vākya-pramāṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-gītā is being interpreted in so many foolish ways because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, pañca-pāṇḍava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnanārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction. So here it is said that kānyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a brāhmaṇa family. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born a śūdra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of śūdra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is śūdra. We also generally say, gadāh, less intelligent. So brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their... Brāhmaṇa, first-class because his intelligence is first-class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second-class. Vaiśya, his intelligence is third-class. And śūdra means fourth-class. And less than śūdra, they are called pañcama, caṇḍāla.

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote by asses? According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned brāhmaṇas and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his son was on the... Just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned but from his family, either his son or brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned brāhmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy... That Lord Collier studied that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states... Now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw... How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko's house, a third-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. And how third-class, low-grade.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs you are a thief. So you think, "I'm honest." But factually you are thief. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). You must remember Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities. "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa-deva mūrti. This is honesty. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber, these qualifications. Therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girirāja?

Girirāja: Yes.

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Those who are Tattva-darśiḥ, those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them. That is the direction in the Bhagavad-gītā, not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, tattva-darśiḥ. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender; then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient. So I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take, drink water, because there is particular taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst-quenching taste is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). There is no need of seeing Kṛṣṇa. You can perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can argue, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I do not see Kṛṣṇa. How can I..." Well, Kṛṣṇa says, "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water you know that taste is Myself." So you can see or perceive Kṛṣṇa by drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa's giving hints, "Worship Me like that." And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye-to-eye, but He can be perceived anumananda(?). What is that word? Parasya...?

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Guest (2): You are saying that man shouldn't have bondage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is under bondage, good or bad.

Guest (2): But is good bondage good?

Prabhupāda: Good bondage, but it is bondage, after all. If you are prisoner, first-class prisoner or third-class prisoner, you are prisoner.

Guest (2): But doesn't bondage give the incentive to live?

Prabhupāda: No, bondage gives bondage. If you do not know how to get out of the bondage, then you will be more and more in bondage.

Guest (2): But if you don't have any bondage, then...

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is in bondage.

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: These rascals are... I'm doubtful whether they are going to moon planet or some hell planet. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Our only formula is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no good qualities—we reject him, whatever he may be. He is rejected from the list of good men, immediately. He may be president or he may be this or that, it doesn't matter. Because he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a third-class man, that's all. This is our certification. (break) These skyscraper buildings are no better than caves. They live here, and here is bathroom, here is kitchen, here is (indistinct) room, three inches. (laughter) Is that advanced civilization? Advanced civilization means every man must have sufficient space to live. Why do you create this path? People will recreate, they will feel repressed, so space is required for refreshment. So what is this civilization? Three inches room.

Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) as man progresses, the mark of his progression is his ability to use tools to a greater extent. Like there was the Stone Age. In the Stone Age, they used stones for tools. Then there was the Bronze Age, so they made weapons out of bronze, knives and so on. Then they invented the wheel.

Prabhupāda: Modern age.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 25, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: If things are... Just like when you pass through a house, sometimes if you don't see—the house is not properly taken care of, or there is no light in front of the house, there are so many garbages, we immediately say, "Oh, there is no man in this house." And as soon as you see house is very nicely kept, there is light and the garden is kept, we understand there is a man. So this is common sense. If things are going on, everything is going on so nicely, how you can say there is no management, there is no brain? How you can say? What is this nonsense? How you can say there is no God? Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). These are the rascal, atheist proposition, asatyam. There is no proof in it. Zero. From zero it has come. Just see nonsense. Does anything come out of zero? You assemble zero, many millions of zero in one place, but still it is zero. Do you think that if you make zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, million times, has it any value? How do they conclude from zero such a management, cosmic manifestation has come? The flower is coming out nicely in its own way. The tree is coming. Human being is coming. Everything is in order. And there is no management. How much rascaldom. Just see. So these atheist class, they're rascals, mūḍhāḥ, third-class men without any knowledge. Na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ. I've already explained. Using the merit for sinful activities, they're called duṣkṛtiḥ. And mūḍhāḥ, these rascals, who cannot understand how the management is going on, mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Narādhamāḥ means... Nara means human being.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: jīva-jātiṣu.

Prabhupāda: Jīva-jātiṣu. Jīva-jātiṣu. That means the evolution means from one form to another. The forms are already... Jātiṣu. Their facilities, they are already there. The living entity is simply transferring himself. The same example: One man is transferring himself from one apartment to another. That apartment is first-class, second-class, third-class. Just a person has come from a lower class apartment to a first-class apartment. The person is the same. Now, according to his karma or according to his capacity of payment, he has got a good apartment. This is... Bhramadbhiḥ. Bhramat means wandering, wandering. Not that they... Evolution means developing. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I understand that part, but I also come across from Śrīla Prabhupāda's commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā that the living entities, all the living entities, 8,400,000 species, they are simultaneously created.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 15, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, everywhere different grades. That is God's creation, variety.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So those trees which bear nice fruits and nice flowers, they are...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are pious, pious trees. Otherwise why I am taking care of this leaf? Because the flower is there. And who cares for this leaf? Trampling down. As in the human society, there is first-class man, second-class man, third-class man, similarly in every field, first-class, animal also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Useful, giving milk. Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason?

Umāpati: Uncontrollable tongue.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Never says by jñāna or karma you'll get.

Reporter: Only bhakti, yes.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings. The karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogis and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."

Reporter: Who are those three, jñānīs...?

Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogis...

Reporter: And karm...

Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogis...

Reporter: And bhaktas.

Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists.

Reporter: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are...

Reporter: Why?

Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.

Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.

Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.

Reporter: Ah.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.

Car Conversation after meeting with Cardinal Danielou -- August 9, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: And that's the only difference.

Prabhupāda: The metaphysical search... Now metaphysically search out why do you deny soul in the human being, uh, in the animals? That is metaphysical. It is metaphysical question. What is your metaphysical study about the living, uh, animals that you say there is no soul? Come to the metaphysical then. You are thinking metaphysically. That's all right. But if you are still thinking like animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical studies? If you are thinking like the animals: "Where shall I get my food? Where shall I take shelter? Where shall I have sexual facility? How shall I defend?" If you are thinking like that, this is animal thinking. Metaphysical thinking means beyond this, beyond this thinking of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is metaphysical thinking. So what you are thinking beyond that? That is God consciousness. When a human being thinks about God, that is metaphysical. When he thinks like animals about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is not metaphysical. Metaphysical. What do you mean by metaphysical? How to define? What is the meaning of "meta"? Above physical. That means spiritual. So if you think spiritually, then you'll see. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa claims: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). "In all forms of life, the living entities are there, and they are My sons." So this is metaphysical, or if some third-class man says that there is no soul in the animal, that is metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? Kṛṣṇa speaking will be metaphysical, or a third-class fool's statement will be taken as metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? First of all say me.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- December 3, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But scientifically it can be proved that there is a mistake.

Prabhupāda: Then that is your mistake. In the laws of nature there is no mistake. There is no mistake. Your mistake. Just like in the railway carriage there is first-class, second-class, third-class. So you have purchased third-class ticket. By mistake, you can go to the first-class and just give him, but you will not be allowed to stay there. So it is your mistake. But these first-class, second-class, third..., that is not a mistake. That is arrangement. Similarly, these varieties... God is so clever that He knows that so many mistakes can be done, and so many varieties are there. As you commit mistake, you enter... "You come here. It is ready." And it is very exact mathematically calculated. Because the nature is working in three modes, so you mix up these three modes, it becomes three into three equal nine, and again you multiply nine into nine, equal to eighty-one. Again eighty-one into eighty-one. So many varieties come. Therefore generally it is taken, 84 million varieties. 8, 400,000. That is already there. Just like government creates a prison house. Although the city is not constructed, but they construct a prison house. Why? The government knows that "There are so many rascals. They will be criminals, they must come here." So it is not government mistakes. Your mistake. You become criminal and come here. It is your mistake. Why should you be criminal? That is your mistake.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1973, Los Angeles:

Yaśomatīnandana: In Gujarati we call it: bhanji moti laksmim.(?) When the palm is closed it is worth lakh rupees, but when it is open, it doesn't mean anything. A foolish person, when he talks, he reveals everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Foolish person means busy rascal. There are four kinds of division: lazy intelligent and busy intelligent and lazy rascal and busy rascal. The first-class man is lazy intelligent, and second class, busy intelligent, and third class, lazy rascal, and fourth class, busy rascal. A rascal, if he's busy, then what he will do? He'll simply do harm. That's all.

Karandhara: Create havoc.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: Create havoc.

Prabhupāda: Havoc, create havoc. Just as they are doing now. All rascals, they are very busy.

Morning Walk -- December 11, 1973, Los Angeles:

Yaśomatīnandana: I told him that "Have you seen Kṛṣṇa's universal form? Kṛṣṇa displayed His universal form just so that these rascals may not cheat you." They said, "I have seen universal form." I said "What did you see in the universal form? Did you see Śiva, Brahmā, all that?" He said, "I saw light, white light, in the universal form." That's all he saw in the universal form, white light. Factually they don't what universal form is.

Prabhupāda: No, no, don't waste your time with that. They are all third-class rascals. Not even first-class rascals.

Devotee: They say that we are searching after the saguṇa form. They are looking for the viśvarūpa, and we are looking for saguṇa.

Yaśomatīnandana: The Viśvarūpa also has a form.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why do you waste your time by talking with these rascals? Take it for granted they are set of rascals. That's all. (break)

Karandhara: ...teach you about Guru Maharaji. So we just threw him out. (break)

Prabhupāda: "If we want your teaching, we shall go to you. Why you have taken the trouble to come here? Please go out." That's all.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 7, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Is that any reason?

Devotee: Actually, they have no philosophical basis for that belief that the animal has no soul. It's just speculation. Yes.

Prabhupāda: No philosophy. Simply rascaldom. Simply rascaldom. And that is being preached by the priestly class. Priestly class. Just see the society! What third-class society! (pause) (break) ...the soul enters after the birth of the child. Eh? Is it not? Therefore killing or abortion is not bad.

Devotee: Oh, they say that abortion isn't bad because the child is not fully formed and therefore is not really a life. It's not really alive.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Therefore one man who is sleeping, he has no soul.

Bali Mardana: No one... They do not believe that generally.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Just like I have given already. Why nine billion cells are there? Because you can work with it. I have given an electric running on typewriter because I know how to work it. Otherwise, this electric machine and the old electric machine, they are made of the same iron, but if I know how to work it, then I can utilize this machinery. But for a layman, it will be all the same. So that is karma. According to karma, we get a body. The body's machinery is also well-equipped, as I can work. This is nature's gift. Not that "This brain is first-class, that brain is first-class, er last class." All brain, last class. It is matter. The man who is working, the soul who is working, he is first-class, second-class, third-class. It is said clearly, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati: (BG 18.61) "Īśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is situated in everyone's heart." Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā: (BG 18.61) "He is offered a yantra, a machine, made by material energy." But that is under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has asked the material energy "Give a good machine; he can work. Good or bad, as He wants, as He wants. That's all. Give him a..." yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. It is all bad. Either this electric machine or that manual machine. They are all matter. So anything material, that is bad. But he wants it; "All right, give it." That is going on. He wants this facility. Now before these motorcars, people were walking on foot. All business was being done. But we wanted a machine like that, so Kṛṣṇa has given us brain to manufacture. That's all. But what you will benefit by this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all this nonsense proposal." But they will not do that. They will create another nonsense desire. That desire should be stopped. That is desireless. Because they will go on simply proposing some nonsense desire... That is their material existence. Now, they have discovered this, made this motor, nice... Now there is problem, no power, gasoline. And if the gasoline is stopped, then your whole endeavor is gone. So this is their business. They are manufacturing something which will entangle him more and more. That he does not know.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...accepting a leader, one has to consider what is the position of the leader. They do not take such account. Now they calculate if the leader is very cunning, then he is qualified. They think that politics means cheating, cunning, bluffing. That is good qualification. Lloyd George, sometimes before he came, he said, "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." He must be inconsistent. And here, this is defense. Tasya vartamānasya. How he is situated (break) ...as it was everywhere, especially in India, that if one is not God conscious, he is a third-class rascal. That standard is now gone. Now to become God conscious, to talk of God, is a business of primitive fools. They think like that. Is it not?

Prajāpati: Yes. They say they are realistic and we are not realistic.

Prabhupāda: Who is realistic? The rascals?

Prajāpati: They think that people who believe in God are not realistic.

Prabhupāda: Oh. And what is the realistic?

Satsvarūpa: To work in social reform or politics is realistic.

Prabhupāda: Reform means that continuously reform? Then where is perfection?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no standard.

Morning Walk -- January 15, 1974, Hawaii:

Bali Mardana: "There are many things, but I can, but you cannot, I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them now."

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that means he's first-class, but he comes to the second-class platform or third-class platform to teach the third-class, second-class person. He's first class. Son of God cannot be second-class or third-class. He must be first-class. But... Just like Lord Buddha. He's God Himself, but He said nothing about God because he knew that "These rascals, they will not be able to... Let them stop meat-eating, that's all. Let them become sinless first of all; then they will be able..." So his main preaching was ahiṁsā, non-violence, no meat-eating. But still, they violate that. Jesus Christ also preached, "Thou shall not kill," but these rascals, all violating. And still, they are proclaiming as Christian and Buddhist. No religion will, real religion, will allow this kind of violence, no religion. It is cheating religion. Dharmaḥ kaitavaḥ: Any religion committing unnecessary violence to the animals, (it is) third-class. It is not religion, it is cheating. Simply cheating.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yeah, then we shall accept. Sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya tinete karīyā aikya. Śāstra will say, and guru will say, "Yes, it is rightly said." Saintly person also will accept. Just like Kṛṣṇa is accepted by Arjuna. Paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. He immediately mentioned that "Such sage, authorities, accept. The śāstra says." Not that because Kṛṣṇa was His friend, he accepted blindly. No. That is corroboration. Whether it is mentioned in the śāstras, whether other saintly persons... Just like there are so many avatāras, but we have got our ācārya-sampradāya, Rāmānuja, Yamunācārya. Whether they are accepting? Not a third class man accepted, and it is accepted. The ācārya. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. This is the way of accepting. (break) Everyone will create his authorities, and unlimited imitation of God will come into existence, and people will be diverted from the reality. (break) The same example, that "Here is an imitation medicine, very cheap, as good as the original one." Even taking it for acceptance that it is as good as the other one, but why in the presence of the original, I shall accept this imitation? What is your answer? Accepting this imitation is as good as the other, but if the other original is present, I can get it, why shall I go to the imitation? (break)

Indian man (2): No, no, that is my understanding. You correct me. According to me, Vedas are first.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And you have not seen so many things. Does it mean that does not exist? You are researching. You have not seen. As a scientist...

Indian man (1): I have heard lots of ghost stories, but...

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not stories. We are hearing from Bhāgavata. It is authority. We are not hearing the stories of a third-class man. We are hearing from Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva...

Indian man (1): But you see, up till now, in my long life of eighty years...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that. So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyāsadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyāsa, full of all knowledge, and Bhāgavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity is subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. (break) Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedānta-sūtra, śāstra cakṣuṣā.

Morning Walk -- April 29, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Well, we can get paper from foreign countries. That will be not difficult.

Mahāṁsa: Oh. If we can get paper from foreign countries, then the printing results can be very good, because the printing is not bad. It's the paper which is very bad.

Tejiyas: Still, at the same, time everybody buys Gita Press books, even though the quality is bad.

Prabhupāda: The quality is third-class.

Tejiyas: Everyone is buying all over India Gita Press.

Prabhupāda: Because the supply is cheap.

Gargamuni: Well, it's in Hindi also. We have to print in Hindi.

Prabhupāda: Well, first of all supply the English then, we... (break) ...tried to sell her place for fifty lakhs of rupees. She thinks that I am so rich man.

Mahāṁsa: Which press?

Devotee: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan?

Prabhupāda: Associated Press, something like that. Bombay's first-class press. (break) ...They are not coming to us.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Is this due to machines, do you think, to the prevalence of machines?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is due to third-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth-class and fifth-class. So at the present moment there is third-class, some, and all fourth-class and fifth-class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to..., because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men: unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third-class. It begins from the fourth-class men. Fourth-class, fifth-class. So if one remains to the category of the fourth-class, fifth-class man, how he can be trained up as first-class man? Therefore these things are prohibited because our aim is to create some first-class men.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: These boys, although they are young men, they will never go to cinema. They are young men. They have got all propensities. But they are so elevated, they have given up all these low propensities, going to the club, restaurant, and cinema or naked dance and this and that, no. Because they are first-class men, they cannot indulge in the third-class, fourth-class proclivities. We are training them in that way. That is required.

Richard Webster: Well, yes, you said restaurants.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Richard Webster: Is it that it depends on the restaurant or is that necessarily bad?

Prabhupāda: Yes, our principle is that we can eat only what is offered to God. So we cannot eat things in the restaurant because it is not offered to God. We may prepare nice things for Kṛṣṇa and offer to Him. Then we take. This is our principle. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña. Yajña means worshiping the Lord. So worship the Lord, it is not difficult. Everyone is cooking for eating, every home. So cook certain things which is acceptable to Kṛṣṇa. Then offer to Him and take the prasāda. There is no difficulty. But you become purified. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Because willfully or not willingly, we are committing so many sins.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, the labor class man is supposed to be the fourth-class man. First-class man, intelligentsia, very intelligent, learned. Or intelligent—one who can understand up to God. To understand God requires great intelligence. So first intelligent class of men, up to, so they are called brāhmaṇa. The next intelligent class man, those who give protection to the society, kṣatriya. And the third class, those who produce food and distribute. They are third class. And other, all others, they are fourth class.

C. Hennis: My organization is in fact concerned with the well being of all four classes. It is not only with the laboring man. It's also primarily with the producers, but also with the managers, leaders, and to a certain extent also with the protective classes in that we are interested in the well-being of policemen, hospital personnel, doctors, nurses, that kind of social security workers, and that kind of person. We are interested in the intelligentsia in that they are professional workers, often independent, whose professional rights and obligations need to be safeguarded and codified. That's a standard laid down in the form of international labor standards. One of our activities, not perhaps now the most important, but one of the first.

Prabhupāda: No. My point was, point is that... Because one is fourth-class, therefore we are not interested in that—it is not my point. My point is that there are four classes of men: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. And our point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for taking care of all classes of men. Although by natural division there are four classes of men, first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, but the example we generally give, just like in your body there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division, but all of them meant for keeping the body fit. And body is meant for giving supply to everyone of them. But if you comparatively make division, the head comes the first division, the arms comes the second division, the belly comes the third division, and the legs comes the fourth division. So we should organize in such a way that all the classes of men in the society be happy, not that we simply take care of the head. The same example: In your body it is not your business just simply take care of the head or the legs. No. All these different divisions of your body, you take care. That is healthy body. When your brain is working nicely, when your arms are working nicely, your abdomen is working nicely and legs are working nicely, then you are fit. If you simply take care of the legs, not of the brain, that is not a good healthy body.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed.

C. Hennis: Well the third-class would be what kind of typical worker?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Third-class men means making provision for the society for eating. That is... It is stated, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi means agriculture, and go-rakṣya means cow protection, and vāṇijyam means trade. That means the third-class men, they would give protection to the cows, produce enough food grains, and if there is excess, then it can be traded. So this is the business of the third-class men.

C. Hennis: But that would cover businessmen and tradesmen and farmers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Farmers means... Nowadays especially in the western country, I see the farmer means they are raising cows for being killed. There is no cow protection.

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: Śakuni.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animals, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men, they are leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first, second, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is, who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth-class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth-class, less than fourth-class. Fourth-class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principles.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: You want to translate? (French)

Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society, the first-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth-class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses... Hmmm. Read. Yes.

Yogeśvara:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.42)

Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first-class man.

Yogeśvara: Do you want me to translate?

Pṛthu-putra: (translates)

Prabhupāda: With all these qualifications, one can become first-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class...

Bhagavān: (correcting translator): "These people should be..." Prabhupāda said: "These people."

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Pṛthu-putra: The traditional western capitalists.

Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea?

Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first-class, second-class, third-class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the, as to keep the body fit, we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French)

Pṛthu-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gītā and...

Prabhupāda: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages.

M. Mesman: English?

Prabhupāda: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness (break) ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇḍavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy. They'll rule over, each one on the village." "No, Sir. Not a piece of land holding the tip of the needle can be spared without fighting." This is the world. The German, German war, First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- April 6, 1975, Mayapur:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...animals of any kind? Would a Vedic king try to prohibit the fifth-class men from eating the animals?

Prabhupāda: No. Animals, you can eat if you like. But there was no slaughterhouse. If you like, you can kill your own animal and eat. That was open. But the state did not maintain any slaughterhouse. And the third-class, fourth-class men, they would eat. So simply by saying that "You don't eat," they will not accept that. They're free, but the state would not maintain the slaughterhouse. At the present moment also, if the slaughterhouse are closed, then immediately seventy-five-percent meat-eating will be stopped. They maintain slaughterhouse. That is the most sinful activity.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just like we are getting charity, crores of rupees, but we are spending for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, not for drinking. And if charity is given to a drunkard, what he will do? He will drink only. Therefore charity is recommended to be given to the brāhmaṇa and the sannyāsī, no other else. Then?

Governor: The apatra-dana.

Prabhupāda: Ah? Apatra-dana, that is third-class. Go on.

Brahmānanda: "This is called charity in goodness. In the śāstras there is no recommendation for giving charity to the unqualified men. In this connection I am enclosing a copy of one chart reproduced in our Back to Godhead, 'Charity in ignorance.' "

Prabhupāda: She has written one article in our Back to Godhead. I am quoting from that.

Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: It is explained there. He does not reveal Himself. Why He shall reveal Himself to an unqualified person? That is Kṛṣṇa's prerogative. If He likes He will reveal. If He does not like He will not reveal. You cannot by force see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, first of all be qualified, then try to see Kṛṣṇa. He is not exposed. Even a big man, if you want to see him, he may refuse: "No, I will not see." What can you do? If you think that "This man is third-class man, why shall I see him?" Even in ordinary human society that is going on. So why people are eager to see Kṛṣṇa without being qualified? Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" First of all you become fit to see God. They'll not become fit. They'll do all nonsense, and want to see God. Kṛṣṇa is addressed, pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. He is the supreme pure, and we are impure, and you want to see the supreme pure. You see? What audacity! I am not fire. I want to enter into the fire. You see? What will be the result? You'll be burned into ashes. First of all be fire. Increase your temperature to the same temperature, then it will automatically.

Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: So purify yourself and you'll see God. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become purified. That makes you all right. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva (Bs. 5.38). Sadaiva means always. This is the process. Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" What qualification have you got? He doesn't think like that, that "I have no qualification." He thinks that "I am very advanced." That is foolish. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ. Similarly a third-class man goes to a high-court judge. Foolish rascals has come. "Who is that?" "I don't know." There was an incident. One big philosopher and one big dramatic player. He was also very famous. So he went to see that philosopher and sent his card. He said, "Oh, why shall I see this dancing dog? He may be famous as a dancing dog, but I have no business with him. If some philosopher comes, then it will be a pleasure to talk with him. What does he know? He may be expert in dancing. It is not philosophy." So he refused to see him. "Why shall I see this dancing dog?" He used these words. "He's a dancing dog" (inaudible). So similarly, why this ordinary man claims to see God? A dancing dog? A devotee says, marma-hatāṁ karotu vā. A devotee is always anxious to see God, but he said that "I am not qualified. So even I become broken-hearted not seeing God, still Kṛṣṇa is my Lord. I may see, or may not see. That is His mercy. But in all circumstances, He is my worshipful Lord." That is devotee. "Oh, I could not see God? I have done so much?" Kṛṣṇa is not so obliged that because by concoction you think you have done something, and therefore He is obliged to come before you and dance. Kṛṣṇa is not so little.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty-stricken man cannot under... But there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he will preach it all over the earth. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has directly said they are not ordinary persons. So unless one is materially not ordinary, he cannot preach. All the Gosvāmīs, they were coming from respectable... And where Gauḍīya Maṭha came? These are third-class men, no position in their past life.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: That's all. Uneducated, half-educated, poor, poverty-stricken. They could not do anything. Some of our Godbrothers I have beat them. (Like Tīrtha) (indistinct). In his previous life he had a big, big business organization. So therefore he has been able to organize. They will admit. They are coming from some third-class status of life. This is not tripe, this is fact.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale, svayaṁ rūpa gosvāmī. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.

Paramahaṁsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen...

Prabhupāda: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rūpa Gosvāmī was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming?

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized. And if he doesn't know what is government, he is simply living there, he's a third class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair, but you do not know it. Then you are third-class man. You are not human being; you are animal. Animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be—brāhmaṇa. Brāhma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: And so if Kṛṣṇa was such a great philosopher, then naturally He would have also used those literary talents to write in between the lines.

Prabhupāda: All right, you become very good bluffer. That's all. We don't accept you. All the ācāryas, they did not accept, those who are authorities. Vyāsadeva, he did not accept these foolish theories. Nārada never accepted. Recent ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Caitanya. Why shall I accept these third-class professors? Kick on their face. We have got authority to support this.

Gaṇeśa: I think they want to interpret Bhagavad-gītā because they do not want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is the idea. That is the real purpose. They want to kill Kṛṣṇa. That is the endeavor of Hiranyakasipu, Kamsa, that "We shall kill Kṛṣṇa." And ultimately they become killed. Their faith is like that.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; there are second-class men; there are third-class men; there are fourth-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment.

It will be chaotic society. That is the present position, that there is no first-class men, there is no second-class men. There may be some third-class men, and all fourth-class men. This is the position. Therefore the whole human society is in chaotic condition. The first-class man should understand this. Therefore it is called dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). What is the meaning of dhīra? Just see.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.

Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is chaotic, no first-class men, all third class, fourth class.

Justin Murphy: What are the specifications for your first-class man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. Satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā.

Paramahaṁsa: Satyam?

Prabhupāda: Śamo damas titikṣā, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Eighteenth Chapter.

Paramahaṁsa: Satyam or satya?

Prabhupāda: Satya. S-a-t-y-a. (devotee looking for verse) You find out jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. Jñānam, find out jñānam. J-n-a-n, jñānam.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a very important matter. If you do not spare time, that is your business, but... (laughs)

Justin Murphy: I'm afraid my life is one of these selfish lives. It's a life that's dominated by...

Prabhupāda: No, it is natural, just natural. Just like why first-class men required in society? Just like in your body there is first-class part, second-class part, third-class part, and fourth-class part. Just like your head is the first-class part of your body. If your head is cut off, then everything is finished.

Justin Murphy: True.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, if in the society, if we don't create first-class men, that society is dead. That society is dead. So at the present moment there is no first-class men according to this word. Therefore there is chaotic condition, problems, and so on, so on, so on. So unless you create at least a few percentage of the people first-class men according to this standard, there cannot be any progress. This is my last word to you.

Justin Murphy: Thank you. I wish you all well, and maybe I should think along those lines myself. It's been most interesting talking to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is necessary to create a class of men first class, ideal. And if you all create fourth-class men, then there cannot be peace. It is not possible.

Morning Walk -- May 18, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Well, nature has made them like that. The human beings, they can utilize the land, they can produce so many nice foodstuffs. That is human society. What is this society? They are living in big, big skyscraper building, and for their food the slaughterhouse killing, and they are eating. Is that human civilization? All third class, fourth class men.

Amogha: If they would only listen, they will be defenseless, but they don't listen much.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they go away, "My time is over." (laughs)

Amogha: Yes. "I am busy. I must go."

Prabhupāda: His energy is over. Not time is over, but his energy is over. He see that "We cannot argue with this man."

Śrutakīrti: He'll not give us a chance. (break) (speaking to another devotee) Wouldn't it be better if you make his breakfast?

Devotee: Certainly.

Prabhupāda: I've talked with many psychiatric scientists in Los Angeles.

Morning Walk -- May 18, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Motor buses were floating. Is that law of gravity? Air, different adjustment of air. If Kṛṣṇa desires, simply by air this whole city will be devastated. The other day we saw so many trees fell from (New?) Kurukṣetra. All trees and houses will be smashed within half an hour if some hurricane is sent. Poking nose in the affairs of God. They'll simply try to prove that there is no God. This is their attempt. And they say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, machine. The authority is God, Kṛṣṇa. So I have given the right name, fourth-class men, not even third class. All fourth class. Śūdra. Śūdra and less than śūdra. This is the whole pack of population at the present moment. First-class man, his definition is there: śama, dama, tapa, śaucam, titikṣā, ārjavam, jñāna, vijñāna, āstikyam. That is first-class. They are snatching a motorcar mechanic as first class. Because he knows some mechanical arrangement how to do it, he is first class. Such things are being done by the demons. Machine or wonderful building, these are done by the demons. Now to begin? Time will come(?)?

Śrutakīrti: You wanted to shave your head? Yeah?

Prabhupāda: Ah, there is time?

Śrutakīrti: Yeah, we are leaving at twelve-thirty. So we have two hours. That is sufficient.

Morning Walk -- May 18, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Hm. The world is full of rascals and fourth-class men. That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict. A human being does not know God, he's no better than dog. He is dog. Who knows God? There are so many scientists, philosophers, now everywhere. And they are discussing on sex philosophy, homosex philosophy, Darwin's theory. All third class, fourth class, they are controlling. Now they are gradually coming to chaotic condition, and their problems, engage so many big, big officials how to solve. Oh, why you created problem, first of all? You third-class, fourth-class men, you have created problem, and now we are trying to make solution—another problem. And because you are the same fourth-class men, how you can make a solution? You have created the problems. The man who creates problems, can he make solution? So you are the same fourth-class man, how you can make a solution? Bring first-class man. But there are no first-class men. All rogues and rascals. Things are becoming bad to worse, and still they'll claim, "We are first class."

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: They have got a spirit of sacrifice.

Dr. Copeland: But you ask a great deal of people. So why do you think they're willing to give?

Prabhupāda: No, I ask only four things: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. That's all. But these four things are very, very, difficult for the Western people. That I know. Just see. God consciousness cannot be achieved by any third-class man. One must be the topmost first-class man. Then he can become God conscious.

Dr. Copeland: And who decides what is first class?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is decided by Kṛṣṇa. Find out this verse. Yeṣāṁ tu anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. (Prabhupāda is coughing) Give me water. Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Kṛṣṇa says who can become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That definition is there.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: They did not elect a first-class man, and later on, they could understand. So everywhere it is going on. Vox populi, the people, are less intelligent. They do not know whom to vote. And besides that, votes can be purchased. They do purchase by paying according to the country. So what is the value of this vote?

Dr. Copeland: Um, when...

Prabhupāda: Now, what is your opinion? A third-class, fourth-class man, if they vote, do you think it has any meaning?

Dr. Copeland: Well, I don't define the people first, second, third, and fourth class like you do, obviously.

Prabhupāda: You don't find? You don't find first person...?

Dr. Copeland: Well, I'm not as willing to judge other people. I'm not willing to say whether you're first, second, or third class, just as I'm not willing to say...

Prabhupāda: No. At least, you are educationist, you are professor. According to the modern society, you are one of the first-class men. Do you think your position and the lower class man, the same?

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman.

A drunkard was never respected. Similarly meat-eaters. He was considered third-class man. In our childhood we have seen when people learned to eat meat, very secretly, not within the house. Outside the house with some Mohammedan cooker. It was considered very abominable to eat meat, to drink. And women, they were kept strictly under the vigilance of parents, father. Young girls not to mix with any young boy. If one young girl goes out of home and does not come back at night, then her life is finished. Nobody will marry her. So the father had to keep the young girls with great care. And the father was very, very anxious to find out a boy to hand it over. We have seen in our childhood. But now these things are slackened. Jawaharlal Nehru, our late prime minister, introduced divorce law. Now the society is in chaotic condition.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.

Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is final.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Yogi Bhajan: We are not disobeying any instruction towards God.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's... What Kṛṣṇa says, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you take it, Bhagavad-gītā, that instruction? What is wrong there? Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic... Now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social—Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are. First class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first-class man... Who is a first-class man? Then... Find out. Satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Train first-class men. He must be truthful. He must be self-controlled, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. He must have full knowledge of the whole world, jñānaṁ vijñānam, practical application. So where is the question of that "I am Sikh," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim..."

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: That is second-class. And the third-class?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

(Bg 18.44)

"Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities..."

Prabhupāda: They are not cattle raising, that was...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow protection.

Prabhupāda: Cow protection. It has to be corrected. It is go-rakṣya, go. They take it cattle-raising. I think Hayagrīva has translated like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hayagrīva.

Prabhupāda: No, it is especially mentioned go-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And then...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam.

Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable—the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmacārī, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs. And then, because he had previous training, at a certain age he gives up family life. That is called vānaprastha.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: In India there are so many places. So in this way, there is no sex in the vānaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyāsa. So this is spiritual advancement, and in sannyāsa life, one is absolutely dedicated for the service of God. So in this way his life becomes perfect. And according to his perfection, he gets next birth in higher planetary system. In the upper planets, planetary system, there is Svargaloka up to the third-class man. And then, above that, there are Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapaloka, Satyaloka, Brahmaloka. And beyond that, there is spiritual world. So in this way life becomes perfect. If you want, you can go to the spiritual world. Spiritual world means no more accepting this material body. And so long we are in this material world we repeat one body after another. And if we degrade ourself to become criminals, then we degrade to the hellish planets down this universe. So human civilization means by nature's way, by evolutionary process, he has come to this body of human being. He should now decide that whether he should remain in this chain of birth and death or he should get out of it and go to the spiritual world.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.

Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman be first-class if she...

Prabhupāda: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband.

Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class husband.

Prabhupāda: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Guest (Indian man): Swamiji, I'll ask one last question. What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't call myself first-class, second-class, third-class. As you said, there are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from making them first class that they should follow the religious...?

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you become first-class, and they will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your first-class? (laughter) In the śāstra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pitā na sa syāj janani na sa syād gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī. Formerly they were Vasus and they were asked by Brahmā to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devakī got Kṛṣṇa as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't want children." This is ideal.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you become first-class, and they will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your first-class? (laughter) In the śāstra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pitā na sa syāj janani na sa syād gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī. Formerly they were Vasus and they were asked by Brahmā to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devakī got Kṛṣṇa as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't want children." This is ideal. What is the use of begetting cats and dogs? You must have first-class children. That requires tapasya. So at least we should follow the standard, how to raise our children to become first-class. There is no current? You can get on the light. At the present moment, people cannot understand even that there is life after death. Most people. There is life after death—they cannot understand, even big, big professors, big, big learned scholars. Everyone is thinking, "This body is accidental and when the body will be finished, everything is finished." That is the general understanding. But Bhagavad-gītā, you read. It is said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: (BG 2.20) "After the destruction of the body, the soul is not destroyed." Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni anyāṇi gṛhṇāti aparāṇi: (BG 2.22) "Just like when our dress becomes old enough not to be used, then we accept another dress, similarly, when this body is old enough, not workable, then we accept another body." These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gītā has come out, at least they should understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. This is the difficulty. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking advantage of that. So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gītā and tries to apply the teachings in practical life. Then you become first-class. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find first-class eating, first-class life, second-class eating, second-class life, third-class... Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food grain.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: "With mind attached to Me." This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. That is success. That yoga we are practicing, how to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Our mind is attached to something. Without attachment, mind cannot be free even for a moment. So the bhakti-yoga means how to transfer the attachment of mind to Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are working, you are rendering your service without any charges, without any profit—why? Because your mind has been attached to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise what business you have got to work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without any remuneration? You are all American boys. You are qualified. You can earn thousands of dollars. But why you have given up? Because you are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). You have found better attachment; therefore you given up. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are attached to so many nonsense things. When we wind up all these attachments and concentrate on Kṛṣṇa, then life is perfect. That is wanted. We are not going to sacrifice attachment. But we are trying to transfer the attachment from matter to Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. But that attachment is very rare.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

(BG 7.3)

So our business is, spiritual master's business is, how to help the disciple to transfer the attachment. It is not that we are creating an, it, artificially, no. The attachment quality is there. But it is being mixed up with material things. And if you purify this material contamination, then the attachment become pure, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the water falls from the sky. It is distilled water. And as soon as it is in touch with the ground it becomes muddy, dirty. Again that water, if you distill, again it becomes distilled water, as good as the rain water, original. Therefore bhakti means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). All the dirty things of designation should be cleansed. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. When the mind is cleansed, nirmalam, without any dirty thing, then you can begin bhakti immediately, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). So bhakti means cleansing process. Originally, distilled water from the sky, in touch with the ground, it is muddy. You filter it or distill it; it becomes original. The consciousness is there, but it has become muddy. You cleanse it; it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we say, "Don't do this. Don't do this." Don't mix again muddy things. It has already become muddy. Your business to cleanse it, and again if you make it muddy with addition of other nonsense things, then it will be delayed. When you ignite fire, you require dry wood. But if you ignite fire, at the same time pour water, then how it will burn? Don't pour water. Therefore we have so many "don'ts." "Don'ts" means that you are burning the fire. Go on. Don't add water. And that is "don't." If you ignite fire, at the same time add water, then how it will burn? Water is the counter-ingredient of fire. If you want to extinguish fire, then add water. But if you want to prolong the fire burning, then you should not add water. So this material enjoyment, illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, gambling, one should be free from these water-like things while you are in the fire of spiritual consciousness. Don't bring these things. You cannot go on burning the fire, at the same time adding water. Then it will be useless waste of time. Anartha upaśamam. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. Bhakti-yogam means anartha, unwanted things, upaśamam, subsiding. This is anartha. Just like we don't eat meat. Are we dying for want of meat? But they have taken it that without eating meat they will die. This is nonsense. And they are maintaining so many slaughterhouses, committing sinful life, only for misunderstanding. They do not see that "Here are some persons. They do not eat meat. They look very bright-faced. Why should I eat meat?" Anartha, unnecessarily, simply for the taste of the tongue, they are committing so much sinful activities. So just we are teaching, "Just control your tongue." That is called śamaḥ damaḥ." Because the tongue wants something, I have to eat, give it—that is not human civilization. If I control my tongue-tongue wants this thing; I say, "No, not this thing; you take this thing,"—then you are master. You are master of the senses. Otherwise you are servant of the senses. Because some of my senses want something... That is natural. But if I can control: "No, this not. This," that is called śamaḥ, damaḥ. And if I become victim of the dictation of the senses, then I cannot make progress in my spiritual life; I am third-class, fourth-class man. Mind wants to steal something. If you can control, "No, why stealing?" Then you are master. (end)

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Solution not only of your country or our country, it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as there are different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly, and the leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for different function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most important part of the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of presentation of other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just like a madman. Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: This is second-class. And then third-class?

Nitāi:

kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.44)

Prabhupāda: That is fourth-class. First of all, third-class.

Nitāi: Third-class: "Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas,..."

Prabhupāda: Not cattle raising, cow protection.

Nitāi: Cow protection.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body—the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs—all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.

Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?

Prabhupāda: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the woman is third-class. In this... Because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: So if we do not properly use this human form of body, if we become subjected to sinful life, then we get a different type of body, very—animal life, tree's life, plant's life, aquatic's life, insect life. Or even we are promoted to the higher standard of life, as in higher planets the demigods, the four principles of material miseries, namely birth, death, old age and disease, we cannot avoid, either in the higher planetary or in the lower planetary system. But if we want eternal life of bliss and knowledge, then we must endeavor in this life how to go back to home, back to Godhead. And such persons who are endeavoring for this purpose, they are called first-class men. And they are called brāhmaṇas or the first-class men. So society must be divided into four classes: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. That is general. Those who are endeavoring for realizing God, they are first-class men. Those who are less intelligent—they are trying to rule over the material world—they are second-class men. And those who are engaged in producing food and cow protection, they are third-class. And those who are useless for any of these three occupational duties, they are called fourth-class. And those who are still lower than that, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class, like that. So our educational system should be so arranged that there may be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men, not less than fourth-class men. Then the social structure will be in order and everyone will be peaceful, aiming at the point, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless there is such structure of the society... Just like in our body we have got four divisions, the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. All of them are required. But the position of the head and position of the leg are different. Head means giving direction, and arms means giving protection, and belly means receiving food for energy of the body, and leg means working. So the human society must be divided into four section, and they should work combinedly, cooperatively. Then there will be peaceful condition for realization of the goal of life, back to home, back to Godhead. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching this process of life, and the whole world is now in chaos on account of no brain. Just like we have got this body. If the brain is not working in good condition, then he is called a madman. So in spite of possessing other parts of the body, namely, the arm, the belly, and the leg, if the head is not in good condition, then the body is useless. At this present moment there is want of first-class men and also second-class men. The whole world is filled up with third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class men. Therefore the society is not properly adjusted. By accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... The process is described very nicely in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, we will find answers for all the problems of life, and if we take it seriously, then the whole human society will be happy, peaceful, in this life, and next life they will go back to home, back to Godhead for eternal blissful life of knowledge. So we are giving literary information in fifty books. Some of the books are distributed here. You can see. Otherwise, the process is very simple. If we chant the holy name of the Lord, we become purified, our heart becomes cleansed, and we can understand the aim of life, the goal of life, and in this way everything can be adjusted very nicely. Thank you very much.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: That has to be trained up. Just like in your country there are medical, professional men, the engineering class of men, the lawyers class of men, similarly, you can train how to become a first-class man. The training process is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Bring it. Śamo damaḥ titikṣa satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam. The... Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class.

Reporter: When does this training begin? In the very youngest age or...

Prabhupāda: Training, every training should begin from childhood. Just like you send your boys and girls to school. So any educational system should be begin from childhood.

Reporter (2): What is the secret to learning to love God?

Prabhupāda: Secret of learning God?

Jagadīśa: Learning to love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The secret—that he must be a first-class man. Otherwise he does not understand what is God, and what to speak of loving Him.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Reporter (2): Once a person is trained in one of the classes, can he move to another class once he's been trained as, say, a third-class man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any class man, you can train him. It requires training. Even one is in the last-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, sixth-class, if he likes he can be trained up to become a first-class man.

Reporter (3): How many followers do you have?

Prabhupāda: Well, to find out first-class man is very difficult. Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten thousand followers in the western countries.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Reporter (5): Then... Well, how about the third and fourth-classes?

Prabhupāda: Third-class means they should engage themselves, how to produce food and give protection to the cow. It is said...

Reporter (5): The cow?

Prabhupāda: Cow, yes.

Reporter (2): The cow?

Prabhupāda: Yes, cow, from where you get milk, that cow. So the exact word is used in Sanskrit, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Vaiśya, the third-class man, is called vaiśya. So his duty is how to produce food, food grains, for both for the animals and the man. And he gives protection to the cows. As the second-class man, the administrator, he gives protection to the human being from danger, similarly, the third-class man is entrusted to give protection to the cows. Cow is very important animal in the society because it is supplying milk, the most nutritious food. And... Find out. This is the third-class man's duty. And the fourth-class man means general worker. He has no brain, he simply helps the other three classes: first-class, second-class, and the third-class. And below the fourth-class men, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class. So they are called lower class, less than the fourth-class. So the society should be generally divided into four classes. As I have given example, there is head, arm, belly, and leg.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Practical psychology.

Brahmānanda: She's asking where does woman fit into this structure?

Prabhupāda: Now, woman is supposed to be assistant of man. If woman is faithful wife of the first-class man, then she also becomes first-class. If she is assistant of the second-class man then he is also second-class. If she is assistant of the third-class man, then she is also third-class. Because she is assistant, so, according to her husband, or protector, she becomes first, second, third, fourth.

Reporter (3): But she doesn't have any structure at all until marriage?

Prabhupāda: No, she has got structure—she has got brain. I have already told. But not as good as man's brain.

Reporter (3): You means she's not qualified as first, second, or third-class until she marries?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman requires to be protected—in childhood by the father, in youthhood by the husband, and in old age by the elderly sons.

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Intolerant?

Jayatīrtha: No, "and tolerant." " 'Such MEN,' " capital M-E-N again, "he said, 'are first-class citizens and should be advisors to the world. Second and third-class MEN have not found God and should be administrators and workers.' " Not exactly right. "He spoke thirty minutes and never mentioned women. I asked how women fit into his system. 'Women,' he said, 'is not equal in intelligence to man. Man's brain weighs sixty-four ounces; women's weighs thirty-six ounces. It is just a fact.' He continued, 'Women are meant to assist men. That is all.' He said women do not figure in his class system except as daughters or wives. 'An unmarried woman presumably is classless. Is that,' asked a male reporter..."

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is fact. She is prostitute, that's all. If you classify, then she is prostitute. (laughter) That's all. There is no other way.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Spiritual paths are divided into four. Not spiritual. Real spiritual, mixed spiritual. Just like this, "God, give us our daily bread." It is mixed spiritual. One has approached God, God is spiritual, but one is asking for material profit. So this is mixture, matter and spirit. So there are four classes generally known as karmī, fruitive actors, they work for getting some material profit. They are called karmī. Just like all men, you will see, they are working so hard day and night, driving their cars, (makes noise of cars) this way and that way. The purpose is how to get some money. This is called karmī. And then jñānī. Jñānī means he knows that "I am working so hard. Why? The birds, beasts, the elephants, big, big..., eight million different types of..., they are not. They have no business. They have no profession. How they are eating? So why unnecessarily I work so much? Let me know what is the problem of life." So they understand the problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. And they want to solve it, how to become immortal. So they have conclusion that "If I merge into God's existence, then I become immortal or immune from birth, death, old age and disease." This is called jñānī. And some of them are yogis. They try to acquire some spiritual power to make a show how he can play wonder. A yogi can become very small. If you put him in a room, he will come out. You lock it. He will come out. If there is little space, he will come out. That is called anima. He can fly in the sky, float in the sky. That is called laghima. In this way, if somebody can show this magic, then immediately he is accepted as very wonderful man. So yogis, they... The modern yogis, they simply show some gymnastic, but they have no power. So I am not speaking of these third-class yogis. Real yogi means he has got some power. That is material power. So yogis also want this power. And jñānīs also want salvation from the unnecessary working like ass, the karmī. And karmīs want material profit. So they want, everyone. But the bhaktas, devotees, they don't want anything. They want to serve God out of love. Just like a mother loves her child. There is no question of profit. Out of affection, she loves. So when you come to that stage, to love God, that is perfection. So these different processes, karmī, jñānī, yogi and bhakta, out of these four processes, if you want to know God, then you have to accept this bhakti. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). "Simply through the process of bhakti, one can understand Me, God." He never says by other processes, no. Only through bhakti. So if you are interested to know God and love Him, then you have to accept this devotional process. No other process will help you.

Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: This is not education. Vidyā dadhāti namratā. Educated means he is humble, gentle, sober, full of knowledge, practical application in life of knowledge, tolerant, control of the mind, control of the senses. That is education. What is this education?

Reporter (2): Are you attempting to form a college?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my next attempt, that we shall educate according to classification. First-class, second-class, third-class, up to fourth-class. And then fifth-class, sixth-class, that is automatically there. So first-class men, there must be, at least in the society, an ideal class of men, and that is one who is trained up for controlling the mind, controlling the senses, very clean, truthful, tolerant, simplicity, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. This is first-class man.

Reporter (2): Will this college be quite different from our conventional college which has a great emphasis on athletics, I mean, football teams and...

Prabhupāda: Well, an education... A highly educated man does not require athletics. He requires good brain. Just like high-court judge, he requires a good brain, not a big gigantic body.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the Medieval era in...

Prabhupāda: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced...

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bahulāśva: This is like Christian...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: They believe that there is God.

Prabhupāda: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.

Jayādvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.

Morning Walk -- July 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hm, so what is the benefit?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, this is the point, is that... It was called the Soyez flight. In any case, they have announced... They made a joint speech where they said, "Together we can conquer outer space. That is the purpose." So now the Russians and the Americans are trying to get... to combine in their efforts to conquer.

Prabhupāda: Bora bora goye gala rasatala, vetta gore bole katha jala(?). There is a river. The horses, they can swim. So the river was so ferocious and many horses drowned. So one vetta gora, means third-class horse, he said, "How was the water? Let me try."

Paramahaṁsa: (laughing) They all drowned.

Prabhupāda: The vetta gora. These are vetta gora, horses with (remedy?).

Satsvarūpa: But they can point to progress, not that they're all drowning.

Prabhupāda: What is that progress?

Satsvarūpa: Well, people never thought they could reach the moon. Now they think they have.

Prabhupāda: So that is not progress. Progress means when you conquer death. That is progress.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: This is our product, to produce for the animal, (indistinct). So the animal eats it and he gives you milk. He's not eating (indistinct). He gives you the nicest food, full of vitamins. And you can prepare from milk hundreds and thousands of so many palatable things. That is civilization. And this is not civilization: "Because cow is so potential, so let me eat the cow." "Guru is so sattvic, spiritual; let me eat guru. Then I will be..." (laughter) This is philosophy. Cow is so full of vitamin, valuable. But civilization is that "Why should you eat the animal? Take the milk." What is this milk? Milk is nothing but the blood. So civilization means let the cow live, and you take the milk, which is nothing but blood. When the mother feeds the child with milk, wherefrom the milk comes? Milk comes from the blood of the mother. Therefore the mother is supplied nutritious food so that she can produce milk for the child. Similarly, cow is mother. What is this philosophy, "Kill the mothers and eat?" "Kill the child and eat?" What is this nonsense? Such crude things are going on in the name of civilization. You are manufacturing billion motor cars, and you cannot manufacture your food? God has given you so much land. This is not civilization. Civilization is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization. One should be intelligent enough. Education must be directed in that way. But they do not know. Actually, they do not know it, that "My aim of life is how to go home, back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). These rascals are trying to adjust things here materially and becoming more complicated, killing father, mother, and child even. (break) This is not civilization. Human being must be civilized. To know the goal of life and do it properly. That is instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā: "You rascal, give up all these so-called engagements. Surrender unto Me." This is civilization. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is civilization. Then you will be all right. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... You are engaged in so many sinful activities, as... Don't manufacture civilization. Take the idea of civilization from Kṛṣṇa. That is perfect civilization. The perfect civilization, Kṛṣṇa has giving idea, there must be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class \en. And less than fourth-class, fifth-class. So, first-class man is described, śamo damaḥ tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam, these are the qualifications, second-class these are the qualifications, third-class, fourth-class. So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Satsvarūpa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.

Prabhupāda: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want. We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...

Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...

Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.

Nityānanda: How many kṣatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kṣatriyas can we have on one farm?

Prabhupāda: I told. Find out who is going to be kṣatriya. Then... Take your time (?).

Nityānanda: You can have more than one?

Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No. (Bengali) ...Calcutta janma... (Bengali)

Lalitā: I told you that Mr. Mani is Sai Baba's bhakta. So he is harassing, sending a letter and all. It's not especial any, that "Send to the member of ISKCON. They must leave." No. There is no report like that, but they are sending to say that he should learn and come to the Mr. Mani's bhakta of Sai Baba. (Bengali) There is nothing special. So if you are feeling better, then tomorrow or the day after tomorrow... (Bengali) ...can I mention that you must fit to see?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) You know that? (Bengali) Between twelve to end of the day. (Bengali) Indira Gandhi... (Bengali) ...position plus spiritual knowledge, it will play wonderful in the world. (Bengali) Third-class, fourth-class rogue, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rājarṣayo. He must be royalty, at the same time great sage, saintly person. Then he will understand. (Bengali)

Lalitā: You must have that quality to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2).

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Again, rājarṣayo viduḥ, sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ. Rājarṣaya (Bengali) India culture... (Bengali) Now I can help you. This is my... (Bengali) Sa kāleneha?

Harikeśa: Kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa.

Prabhupāda: Yogo naṣṭaḥ paran. Rājarṣaya... (Bengali) ...third-class, fourth-class rogue... (Bengali) It was the primary qualification that one must be a graduate; then he can understand what is law. Similarly, if one is actually brāhmaṇa by qualification, then he can understand what is Vedas. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa was interested to speak to the rājarṣis. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. He told to the... First of all He spoke to Vivasvān, the king of the sun planet. That picture is there?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. First of all He spoke that... If you take history of Bhagavad-gītā, then it comes to forty millions of years ago, at least, He spoke Bhagavad-gītā. How do you calculate? The calculation is there. Any intelligent man can calculate because Brahmā's duration of life is mentioned there. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brāhmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). So one yuga means forty-three lakhs of years and multiply it one thousand. That is Brahmā's duration of one day. Now, in one day there are seven Manus. So Vivasvān Manu's age can be calculated—at least forty millions of years ago. So the Bhagavad-gītā is not a new thing. It was spoken five thousand years ago to Arjuna. That was not the first speaking. He says, "I first spoke to Vivasvān, the sun-god." Yes, show him. (Bengali) ...I am manufacturing something. Everything is there. "If you simply follow, a great, wonderful thing will be done." She is now in a position. Simply she has to take the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and apply it practically. And that is not very difficult. Just like the Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti... Parjanyād bhavanti bhūtāni. Make this program, immediately.

Morning Walk -- September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: Society has lost this saṁskāra process; therefore they remain in the animal platform. Janman jāyate śūdra saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. When a person is born even in human society, he remains a śūdra. Śūdra means almost like animal. Now he has to be reformed. That is called saṁskāra. Then twice-born. The first-class twice-born is brāhmaṇa. Second-class twice-born is kṣatriya. And third-class twice-born is the vaiśya. And remaining, who cannot be reformed, they remain śūdra. But there is cooperation between brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and the society makes progress simultaneously for everyone. That is human society. At the present moment mostly all of them remain śūdras or less..., caṇḍālas. So how there can be any peace? It is not possible. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, maybe a few vaiśyas only. They are also half-reformed. And European culture, that is caṇḍāla culture, yavana culture. There is no reformation, no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, simply śūdras and caṇḍālas mostly caṇḍālas. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is means for thoroughly overhauling the whole human society. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you.

Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra worshiped His devotees. Just like sometimes Kṛṣṇa worships Rādhārāṇī and touched His feet..., Her feet. That does not mean that Kṛṣṇa... Just like Kṛṣṇa was tolerating ear pulling by Mother Yaśodā. That does not mean that Mother Yaśodā is the Supreme. Hm? Kṛṣṇa was carrying the wooden shoes of Nanda Mahārāja. So that does not mean Nanda Mahārāja is greater than Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. Just like sometimes a father takes the son on the shoulder, carries. Does it mean the father is inferior than the son? So this is third-class man's conclusion. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Rāma. Kṛṣṇa says that aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). So He is the origin of Lord Śiva. So how Śiva can be the Supreme? We have to consult śāstra. Kṛṣṇa does not say that Śiva is Supreme. So if a third-class man says Śiva is Supreme, we have to accept it? We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is Supreme, not a third-class man's version. Is it clear? Yes. We should not take a third-class, fourth-class man's version. We should take from the śāstra.

Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up, more people. Just like I went alone in Europe and America. So I have trained them. So it will depend on your training power, the more people will be attracted. If you advertise, "Come here," and if you have no power to attract them, then it will not be... You must be attractive to bring them. And that is spiritual attraction. You must behave yourself nicely. Then people will come. If you become purified, then naturally they will come. Just like if you prepare nice preparation with pure ghee, customers will be naturally attracted and they will pay and purchase. And if you prepare rubbish thing, one man may be cheated, but that will not be attraction for the general. Purity is required. That will attract. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). One must be pure. Then he will be able to attract. So if they see practically that "These people are very happy; they have no anxiety," then they will be attracted. Is it not? What is the difficulty? But if you want brothel and night dancing and wine and meat-eating, then it is spoiled. It becomes impure. To become pure is not at all difficult. Rather, to become impure, it is difficult. But people, with all difficulties, they are becoming impure. Otherwise the idea which I am giving, you can start anywhere, anywhere, any part of the world. It doesn't matter. Locally you produce your own food. You get your own cloth. Have sufficient milk, vegetables. Then what you want more? And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization. A first-class Rolls Royce car, and who is sitting there? A third-class negro. This is going on. You'll find these things in Europe and America. This is going on. A first-class car and a third-class negro. That's all. Is it not?

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are increasing sex life, and actually the advancement of knowledge should be decreasing sex life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know what is knowledge. The knowledge means sex life. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex life, how to take shelter of abortion, child-killing, and then contraceptive method—whole thing on the basis of sex life. That's all. They do not know except these things. They know there is botheration after sex life, but they cannot give it up. Therefore all these arrangements: take contraceptive, kill child, and what... That means the whole thing is based on sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Is that pleasure? They think it is pleasure to unite the urinals. (laughter) And this is pleasure, a standard of pleasure most third class, fourth class. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ tuccham: very abominable. Tuccham, the śāstra says, "most abominable." And they take it pleasure, and they make arrangement for this. When the dog enjoys sex life... Therefore they are allowed to do it on the street. People can see it. Is that very nice scene? The same thing is done by the human being, and they are taking: "This is all, everything."

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But I think people would... Most people would go crazy if they didn't have any work.

Prabhupāda: No, that means their life is not properly conducted. And therefore the word laziness has come. Laziness is not actually the word. Laziness means minimizing the bodily labor and engaged in spiritual work. If you ask people, "Please come to our temple," who is coming? Because he says, "I have no time." But we are not working hard. So real aim of life is to... In German, I think, or somewhere there is classification: "Lazy intelligent, busy intelligent, lazy fool, and busy fool." So at the present moment (laughs) the whole world is full of busy fools. But the first-class man, he is lazy intelligent. Lazy and intelligent, that is first-class man. And second-class man, busy intelligent. And third class means lazy fool and fourth class means busy fool. When the fools are busy... Just like nowadays they are busy but they are fools. Like monkey, he is very busy. You see? And they prefer to be generation of monkey, busy fool. That's all. Fools, when he is busy, he is simply creating havoc. That's all. Better... Lazy fool is better than him because he will not create so much harm, but this busy fool will simply create harm. And first class-man is lazy intelligent. He knows the value of life, and soberly he is thinking. Just like all our great saintly persons. They were living in the forest, meditation, tapasya, and writing books. All, you will find, lazy intelligent. They are first-class men.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men-lazy intelligent; second-class men-busy intelligent; and third-class men-lazy fool; and fourth-class men-busy fool.

Morning Walk -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsato dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Nondevotees, they are simply pulled on by the mental speculation: "This will be very nice. This will be very nice." Mano rathena on the chariot of mind... Asataḥ, material. Asat means material, "that will not exist." They will be busy in such things. Real, eternal necessity, they'll not be interested. They do not know. "Now, this beautiful city, it is my city, my country. Everything all right." But he has no knowledge that "After fifty years, when I shall die, where will be my city next?" That he does not know. For the time being, I shall be able to live here for twenty-five years or fifty years. That's all right. And next time, where I am going... A commonsense affair.

Cyavana: That's a third-class mentality, to be satisfied with that city...,

Prabhupāda: Temporary...

Cyavana: Simply to have a city and be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Cyavana: Third-class mentality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's eternal. He does not know his eternal necessity. This is called ignorance. (break) You brought that sitting mat?

Brahmānanda: Use our chaddars. (end)

Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: "That's all right. Without serving Kṛṣṇa, I am getting pleasure by drinking wine. Why shall I...?"

Cyavana: That pleasure will not last. That pleasure is only temporary.

Prabhupāda: "No, I will not also last. (laughter) that..."

Cyavana: But to accept such a mentality, we say that is third class. Actually our life is eternal.

Prabhupāda: That is your statement, "third class," but my statement is "It is first class." (laughter)

Harikeśa: Is it first class if every time you are going to eat something nice I was standing over you with a stick, and as soon as you took, I would beat you? So every time you have some enjoyment, there is some concurrent suffering. Like you enjoy the wine, but then you have a headache, hangover. You enjoy. Then you get sick.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Tenth Chapter, He says, "For those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I will give the understanding by which they can come to Me." So this is our desire.

Prabhupāda: "I don't want to go."

Cyavana: You don't want to go to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: "Yes."

Morning Walk -- November 7, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvatī, many demigods. But Nārada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Kṛṣṇa explained, mam ekam. That is success. So Vyāsadeva was very much...

Dr. Patel: But, sir, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, He has already said in Mahābhārata also, you know?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- November 8, 1975, Bombay:

Bhāgavata: Just like the Guru Maharaj-ji. Now the mother is denouncing. She is saying he is no more qualified to be Bhagavān. Now his brother, he is Bhagavān.

Prabhupāda: That's all, anyway, a third class.

Dr. Patel: I think we should not talk about this. Talk something about Bhagavad-gītā and Bhagavat. Then, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes. These people are third-class men. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: māyām etan taranti te

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Unfortunately the rascals will not take it. That is the difficulty.