Prabhupāda: The so-called jñānīs, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they are also materialists. But therefore Brahmā . . . you'll find in that Brahma-stotra, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya: "Give up this attempt to reach the Supreme by mental speculation." Jñāne prayāsam uda . . . namanta eva: "Be submissive." Namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām: "Just hear from devotee the news of the message of God, Kṛṣṇa." That is the process recommended. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. Sthāne sthitāḥ. You haven't got to change your place. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You hear from the realized soul and try to apply in your practical life. Then, one day, although God is unconquerable, He will be conquered by you. This is recommendation by Brahmā.
Dr. Patel: I heard sometimes in bhakti-yoga that you have to become pure, you have got to leave your body consciousness and become soul conscious . . .
Prabhupāda: That is soul consciousness.
Dr. Patel: In the other conscious, and then . . .
Prabhupāda: Body consciousness is mental speculation.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. You must go beyond that.
Prabhupāda: Ah. This is the gross body and subtle body. So when these jñānīs, they think that they have become liberated, but they are entrapped by the subtle body. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . . .
Dr. Patel: These yogīs . . .
Prabhupāda: Then they are also, the same thing: gross material thing.
Dr. Patel: The yoga means to join yourself. Your self means not body, not even mind, but your soul, to the higher soul of . . . that means the God. That is real yoga. And that is as good as bhakti. Or you call it yoga, anything. Yoga and bhakti comes to same thing then.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is real yoga. Others are farce. Yoginām api sarveṣām (BG 6.47). The bhakti is real yoga. That is real yoga. And this is farce.
Dr. Patel: Mad-gatenāntarātmanā.
Prabhupāda: Ah. That is real yoga.
Dr. Patel: Antarātmanā.
Prabhupāda: Antarātmanā means beyond his mind and intelligence . . .
Dr. Patel: From within yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarve . . . so within yourself, if one thinks, antara mad-gatena, Kṛṣṇa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, that is first-class yogī. But the so-called yogīs, they want to become Kṛṣṇa, "Now I have become God."
Dr. Patel: But then I don't think they say they are becoming Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Their disciples say. As any disciple . . .
Prabhupāda: These all rascals! Kick these disciple. Why . . . where from the disciple comes? From the rascals.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)
Prabhupāda: Eh? These rascals come . . . if the . . . janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). If the rascals are produced, he's rascal.
Dr. Patel: But you are a guru. I am your disciple.
Prabhupāda: So you see they are mine. They are not violating . . .
Dr. Patel: I have not . . . if I have taken you as a God, then I can get my knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: If I take you as a man, I have not got it.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. If God produces rascals, then he's not . . . he's a rascal.
Dr. Patel: The guru has got to be taken as God.
Prabhupāda: That is another . . . guru has taken . . . not that God, he's God only.
Dr. Patel: Guru is not talk, God.
Prabhupāda: He's . . . just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call, "If you love me, you love my dog." It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, "Oh . . ." the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God.