Prabhupāda: Aparaspara sambhūtam. Interaction of the two things. But where is the interaction of two things unless it is arranged by some third element? Where is the evidence? So these are foolish theories, that there is no God, things are taking place automatically and things are coming out, these are all foolish theories. There is no evidence. Pramāṇa, there must be evidence. Otherwise... Just like science means simply not to see observation that things are taking place, but experiment. It must be substantiated by experiment. Just like theoretically everyone knows that two chemicals, soda and alkali, mixes together and there is interaction, effervescence. But who is mixing the soda and alkali, er, alkali and acid? There must be. Therefore the answer is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence." That is God. Under God's superintendence things are coming. Parasya śaktiḥ vividhaiva śruyate. He has got many multi powers and energies, they are working.
Theory (Conv. 1975)
Expressions researched:
"theories"
|"theorists"
|"theory"
|"theory's"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Complimentary copies for them to study that another scientist has accepted your teachings.
Prabhupāda: He has very nicely slapped Darwin. (chuckles) He is a mental speculator. How is that, the scientists accept a mental speculator's theory? (pause)
Devotee (2): What is it called?
Prabhupāda: Gandharvapur.
Devotee (2): What does it mean?
Prabhupāda: Sometimes... Means this is false thing. It appears as a big city. Similarly, this is also. This material world is like that. It is a false cloud only, but we have taken it as fact. Just see, it appears just like big New York City. If you go to the forest, you will find some illusion, that just after that tree there is a big house. Have you experienced that?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Means calculation. It is going on, regulated way. Just like everyone knows that this month is February. In the month of June the summer will begin. Everyone knows. It is not conclusion; it is experience. There is no need of calculating. So one who has got better experience, he can say like that. Calculation and experience. Just like if somebody says, "Two plus two plus two plus two," somebody says immediately, "Six." And another calculates, "Two plus two plus..., six." So experience and calculation. Lacks experience, he calculates. One who has better experience, he doesn't calculate. One who knows past, present, and future, he doesn't require to make calculation. He knows everything. So God knows past, present, and future, and others who are favored by God, he also knows by the grace of God. Because he hears from God. God knows past, present, and future. Then he simply reproduces God's words, that's all. He doesn't require to calculate. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). The Kṛṣṇa says. Now, we can say what is the age of Brahmā by Kṛṣṇa's words. I don't require to be a very expert astrologer or astronomer. I hear from Kṛṣṇa, and I reproduce. Just like child. Father said, "This is this;" I say, "This is this." That's all. The child is not perfect, but when he says, "Father said this is this," that is perfect. Therefore our process of gathering knowledge from the father—we don't calculate or don't concoct or put theories, no. We don't do that. This is called śruti, śruti-pramāṇa, evidence from śruti.
Prabhupāda: Theory? Theory of?
Professor: Knowledge. Ways to approach nature.
Prabhupāda: So what is your decision? What is the position of the living entities?
Professor: (indistinct)
Hṛdayānanda: (translating) She says she's... They're more or less concerned with the theory of knowledge, rather than actually having some knowledge.
Prabhupāda: What is that theory of knowledge?
Professor: Yes. I had been studying the Sanskrit, the texts of Śaṅkara especially, the bhāṣya of Badarāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, theory of knowledge, how it is explained? Every living being has got knowledge. What is that theory of knowledge?
Professor: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Every individual being has knowledge. Even a small ant, it has got knowledge. Knowledge... Of course, development of knowledge according to the body, but a living entity, even the trees, they have got knowledge. They grow... When there is some block, they do not grow that side; they grow this side. Is it not?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That I am coming. That I am coming. Guru... That is next line. It is said, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Guru means who has properly heard the Vedas, śruti. Śrotriyam. And as a result of his hearing he is firmly convinced in the existence of the Absolute Truth, God.
Professor: Well, this is... We've only come to one of the mentioned(?) theories of knowledge, I think, śabda.
Prabhupāda: Sata? Śabda, yes, śabda-brahman. Yes.
Professor: Then if you are able to communicate to heart with knowledge through śabda, no?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śabda-brahman. Just like many thousands of miles away we are getting some radio message and we learn that "Something is happening there. Something is there." Therefore śabda. This is... Śabda means sound, sound, sound vibration. So that is the real source of knowledge. That is the real source of... Śabda-brahman.
Prabhupāda: Because I am giving the perfect truth. Anyone who will accept, it will act. Just like a child says that "This is dictaphone. If you use it like this, you'll get this result." That is perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that not all knowledge is so objective. For example, in the matter of understanding society, the communists have their theory, the capitalists have their theory, and there's millions of theories and so...
Prabhupāda: That is not knowledge; that is art. Just like electrician. He knows how to mix the two wires and bring the current. That is not knowledge; that is a business or art for temporary recreation. And because he knows the art how to bring the current, it does not mean that he knows the Absolute Truth. So people are taking at the present moment electrician as the knower of the Absolute Truth.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks that the knowledge that you're giving is perfect because it is perfect knowledge and not because you are giving it. Because it is revealed knowledge, perfect because it is revealed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone can take it. Just like we are giving knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā. So the Bhagavad-gītā is open for everyone; it is not for me only. It is for you also. That is our movement, that you take the perfect knowledge and be happy and make your life successful.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that does not require a great scientist. Anything in this material world which has got a beginning, it has got end. We can experience from our body. The body has got a beginning; therefore it must have an end. Anything which has beginning, there must be end. This is our experience. You take anything material. This tree, it has got a beginning; it has got end.
Vīrabāhu: But because it didn't suit to his theories he said that...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that means they are rascals. That means they are rascals. They are simply mental speculators. They have no value of their knowledge. We should take them like that, that "These are all rascals." They may be very big man in the estimation of other rascals, but we are not such rascals. We are not going to take their version. (end)
Prabhupāda: If sexual intercourse is the beginning of life, then why it is not always successful? We say that when the life, living entity, is there in the semina and it is put into the woman's womb, then body develops. Therefore, the beginning is the life. This is practical. And this life is the part and parcel of the supreme life. Therefore the beginning is God. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So we have to establish this theory in this misguided world that... And besides that, why they cannot produce life from matter? What is the value of their statement? That they have not been able to do. Where is the proof that from matter life comes? You do it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Proof is under investigation. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Eh? That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This proof, that from life, life is coming, there is proof, so many proof. A man, animal, trees—everything is coming from life. Up till now, nobody has seen that a man is born from a stone. Nobody has seen. Sometimes it is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. You know that? Vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Vṛścika means scorpion, and taṇdūla means rice. Sometimes we see some heaps of rice, the scorpion is coming. But that is not that the rice has given birth to the scorpion. You have not seen in your country? We have seen it. From the rice, heaps of rice, one scorpion, small scorpion, is coming. The fact is that the parent of the scorpion, they put their eggs within the rice and, being fermented, the scorpion comes out, not that from rice the scorpion is coming out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another answer that we come across when we talk with these people...
Prabhupāda: There is nowadays the chance theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, chance is not so much popular, but the answer that "chemicals were supplied by nature," that's a very...
Prabhupāda: No, what is nature? That you cannot explain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the answer, theirs. When we ask the scientists...
Prabhupāda: But what is this nature?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the nature is not understood.
Prabhupāda: You see? That means you are rascal. You have not understood. You have no knowledge. As soon as you cannot explain, you prove your foolishness, that's all. That is not scientific answer, "chance," "nature." What is the nature? Who is conducting nature? How the nature is going on so nicely?
Prabhupāda: There are life manifestation, according to Vedic literature, that some of the life, they are coming from eggs, some of the life, they are coming from perspiration, some of the lives come from a seed, and some of the life comes from embryo. This is all stated there. Sveda-ja, udbi-ja, aṇḍa-ja, jarayu-ja. They already there. Jarayu means embryo, and sveda means perspiration. Life is everywhere. When they take little advantage, they come out, manifest. You will find even on the pavement, footpath, as soon as there is crack, some grass is coming out. So life is everywhere, it is struggling, and as soon as there is favorable circumstances, they come in a form. That's it. Life is not created, na jāyate. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate: "Life is never created." It is existing eternally. Therefore it is said, na jāyate. So unfortunate rascals, they do not take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and making research. So we want to stop this rascaldom. They are trying to create life, and it is stated in the Bhagavad..., na jāyate: "It is never created." It is already there. Simply it is coming out, being manifest by different bodies, 8,400,000 forms. That I was explaining last night. According to his desire. The life is already there, and according to his desire, he is coming out in different forms. That is going on. This is a false theory, that chemical can create life. It is nonsense. Life is never created, life is already there. God is already there, and the part and particles, molecules, life, was already there. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. This word is used, kadācit, "at any time." So we have got perfect knowledge. Why should we say, "Yes," with these rascals? We have got perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That means they are not in knowledge. That I am speaking, the barking dog. First of all make experiment, produce life. Then come and say. Otherwise don't bark like a dog, imitation. Simply big, big words. Produce. Our theory is that... In the śāstra it is said harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nās... (CC Adi 17.21). That practical proof we are giving, that these Europeans, Americans, they are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and how they are coming out, this practical proof. They did not know five or six years ago what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa's name. But we are taking the conclusion of the śāstra: in this age, if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes spiritualized. That is becoming, practically. It is not theory. How so many devotees are in this Atlanta, here? Anywhere, wherever we have started, how they have become devotee? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You follow this formula and you will become God conscious." That is being practically proved. It is not theory. So that is Vedic knowledge. You adopt Vedic knowledge and get the result, not that "This ammonia, this chemical, that chemical, but I cannot do anything." The rascal said, "That I cannot say." You...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He asked him, that rascal chemist, that "If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?" That time he said, "No, that I cannot say." Why do you say like that? In the beginning, in New York, that store front, the Satsvarūpa is with..., and Hayagrīva and... And you chant simply. You were also there. So this chanting is proving efficient. That is Vedic knowledge. It is not theory. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not theory or mental speculation. It is a fact. So therefore it is said,
guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya,
ār nā koriho mane āśā **
So whatever little success I have got, it is only for this reason. My Guru Mahārāja said that "You go and preach whatever you learned in English language." That's all. So I came here with this faith, that "My Guru Mahārāja said. I must be successful." I did not show any jugglery to you, gold-making jugglery. Where is my gold? I came with forty rupees first. (chuckles) So these are Vedic instruction, guru-mukha-padma-vākya **, and:
śrī-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama-gati
That is real progress. So this is Vedic instruction. We have to follow the Vedic injunction. Then you will be successful. Not these rascals' theory. It is useless.
Prabhupāda: That is our business. (laughter) This word, "creation," is applicable in this material world. In the spiritual world there is no creation, the father and the son existing eternally. When we come to this material world... Material world means it has got beginning, and it has got end. And spiritual world means there is no beginning, no end. That is sanātana, eternal.
Guest (1): That is the point of a steady state theory of the universe also, that it... Arthur Hubble, I think, in Oxford. He talks about a steady state theory of the universe. But the whole idea is that the whole universe has always been there, and it will always be there. It might change in shape, like on the expressway in the morning. Any one morning you may look at it, blue car is here and the red car is there and another day the green car might be in the same place. So there might be transitory change, but he maintains that it has always been there. So I can see the point. There is a big controversy going on, and he might be very well right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's talking from a physical concept.
Guest (1): The big bang theory and the steady state theory of the universe. And they have come up with a cyclical theory of the universe also, that there is a big bang and the universe expands and then comes back again, like in Vedic philosophy, they have one mantra...
Prabhupāda: Hm, bṛhattvād bṛhannatvād iti brahma.
Prabhupāda: That is not... It is never created. That is their missing point, that life is never created and they are trying to create.
Mādhava: Their theory may be right about how the body forms, but they're missing the soul?
Prabhupāda: Body forms... As soon as there is life, body will form by nature's arrangement.
Mādhava: May their theory be right? Like they say they come from amino acids and so many things. But...
Prabhupāda: That may be or may not be. Who cares for them? It is being already done.
Rūpānuga: They're simply describing it.
Prabhupāda: That is also... Because they have no knowledge, how they can describe?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're explaining that, just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example that the driver in the car. So inside the... We also say that "Yes, molecules are the ingredients to build the material bodies. But this does not mean that molecules are the living entities."
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the second part of it...
Prabhupāda: That theory, mathematics, you presented...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, this is...
Prabhupāda: His.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's his.
Prabhupāda: So it is very nice. You have dedicated to Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The second one is "Order Cannot Arise from Disorder." This will be based on mathematical arguments.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also Jad Prabhu's (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And third one is "The Statistical Disproof of Darwin's Theory." This is on advanced mathematics. That also Richard Prabhu's duty.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then on fourth chapter we have a section called "False Theory," namely that life originates from matter. This will be Mādhava Prabhu's...
Prabhupāda: Life originates from matter?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Devotee: False theory.
Prabhupāda: About false theory. Very good. (laughter) Very good, it will be very nice. You have all Kṛṣṇa's blessing, do it nicely.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then from fifth chapter it will be evolution versus transmigration.
Prabhupāda: Mm, yes, very good.
Prabhupāda: That is their defect. That is their defect, we want to educate them on this point.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And on the seventh chapter there is that Prabhupāda's, that theory of acintya-śakti.
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be a collective effort of all the prabhus from the movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes, acintya-śakti is there, within our body.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to present it in some sort of very good arguments, foundations are there. It will be our collective effort.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rūpānuga: There was another devotee, Jñāna dāsa, in Germany, who is a graduate from Oxford University, their school. And we have invited him to come to this meeting but he did not respond. Maybe he will come and help in the future.
Prabhupāda: Mm, yes.
Prabhupāda: Absolute, that is absolute.
Satsvarūpa: "Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by so doing have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord."
Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you can write this book nicely all together, it will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa will bless you and help you.
Rūpānuga: People will speculate so many theories as to why the hairs are coming out but then after some time they will see that theory is wrong they'll have to present a new one.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their rascaldom.
Rūpānuga: And until they come to understand that Kṛṣṇa is pushing it, then they will never understand what's actually causing everything to grow.
Dr. Wolf: False ego.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So give something.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last chapter is entitled "Intellectual Amalgam, Psycho-social Implications." That will be Rūpānuga...
Prabhupāda: What is it?
Rūpānuga: It was their idea. In a book like this there has to be some social conclusion as to the effects of such atheistic theories.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the people are being misguided. That we want to stop. They have got this human form of body, that is an opportunity to understand himself and God and act accordingly. Now they are being misled. It is a social disservice. Cheating. In the name of scientist, they are exploiting this innocent person, taking their money and spoiling it without any good result.
Prabhupāda: That I was discussing, that is foolishness. That is—I was discussing—life is never created, life is already there. The body is created. So they are going on on a wrong theory.
Guest (1): I think our definition of life is a little different.
Prabhupāda: You may define differently, that is your concern.
Guest (1): We are talking about a protoplasm, something that moves. It may not have the soul, it may not have any...
Prabhupāda: "May not have," that means you have no real knowledge, "may not have." "May not have," that is not knowledge. I say, "May have." Then what is the difference between you and me? "May not have," that is not knowledge. That is simply suggestion, speculation.
Guest (1): Want me to give examples...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to take knowledge from the perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13)." You have to take that knowledge. You cannot say you are perfect and you'll say, "May not have." And what is this knowledge, "May not have"? Say definitely and prove it, scientifically. That is knowledge. "Perhaps," "May not," "May be," these are not knowledge.
Guest (1): Swamiji, what actually I was coming to, most humbly, cannot spread to the (indistinct) science go together. It's not...
Prabhupāda: No, if science is really science, that is helpful. If science is based on wrong theory, then what is the use of that. Everything is wrong. So many mathematical calculation, if there is any item wrong, then whole thing is wrong.
Guest (1): So we are all moving in the darkness, ignorance, to begin with.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that if you admit then you will get knowledge. But that is not the position. You are falsely proud that you are very advanced in knowledge.
Guest (1): No Swamiji, no...
Prabhupāda: Then you are qualified.
Guest (1): Even for a small experiment, I don't pretend that we know anything, whatever it is.
Prabhupāda: Actually that is the position, therefore our business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa demands that, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence how to become perfect.
Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but the remedy is there. If you like, you can take it. If a man is suffering from some disease, the remedy is there, the physician is there, but if he does not take advantage, then that is his business. What can be done? This is very nice... Every Bhāgavata, every line is so important.
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
Those who are high-grade personalities, they are always thinking, "How these rascals will be happy?" Their only business is that. But their instruction is not being accepted. That is the difficulty. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha. This word, mūḍha, means rascals. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamaḥ (BG 7.15). The lowest of the mankind, miscreants and rascals, these class of men will not accept God as the supreme. But He is... Kṛṣṇa is speaking, "Rascal." One may protest that "There are so many educated men. They are all rascals?" But that is also confirmed: "Yes, they are rascals." Why? māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. "Their real knowledge has been taken away by the illusory energy." māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. Why it is done? Āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ: "Because they have accepted this theory 'There is no God.' " That is the difficulty. Āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ. They are under the control. How you can say there is no God? Are you free? Are you independent? What do you think? Are you independent of God?
Prabhupāda: Otherwise how we have gone there? (laughter) Africa was part of India.
Brahmānanda: The land was together?
Prabhupāda: No, there...
Indian man: Geological information it was. It was together. And Australia was fitting in the Bay of Bengal. This is the theory. I learned from my lecturer, Dr. Willinghurst. He told me in my class.
Prabhupāda: Because from Bhāgavata we understand that the black man who was born out of the body of King Vena, he was thief. So he was sent to the African jungle. Yes. And they are still thief. (laughter) They cannot give up their... Although they have got independence, they cannot give up this habit. (Dog barking) "Best friend."
Brahmānanda: Mahārāja Pṛthu also came from the body of King Vena.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: So he stayed in India, and the other, he went to Africa.
Prabhupāda: No, he was the emperor of the whole world. But the jungle part... Somebody... The whole world was known as Bhāratavarṣa, this planet, nine varṣas: Bhārata-varṣa, Ketumāla-varṣa, Ilāvṛta-varṣa... the whole universal situation is mentioned, where different lands are there.
Prabhupāda: "Someday"? Where? Where? Where?
Guest: No, I am assuming.
Prabhupāda: Assuming.
Guest: One day he manufactures that. Then what? All this theory is gone?
Prabhupāda: No, we say he cannot.
Guest: No, that is now, today. But you also said we can't...
Prabhupāda: That you can say, today or tomorrow, but we know in the history nobody has manufactured in the past, and nobody is manufacturing in the present. How can I believe in the future?
Guest: I think many things that were not done in the past are being done today.
Prabhupāda: No. In the past there was winter season. In the present there is winter season. Therefore I can say next January will be winter season. That is nice. But if it is not happened in the past or present, how you can say? That proposition is not accepted. In the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease, in the present there is birth, death, old age, and disease, and in the future there will be birth, death, and old age and disease. This conclusion is all right. In the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease. At the present there is birth, death, and old age, disease. How you can say in the future there will be no birth, no death, no old age...? That proposal is not very sound. You can say whimsically; that is another thing. But factually it is not possible.
Prabhupāda: God is always helping, but if you do not accept it... God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "You give up all other engagement and take My shelter," but you are not doing that. That is your fault. So it cannot be failure unless you are negligent. You have no utsāhaḥ. This is the process. Utsāhaḥ dhairyaḥ niścayaḥ tat-tat-karma-pravartanaḥ, sato vṛtteḥ. How these boys are advancing? They have got enthusiasm: "Yes, we must make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." They have given up everything. They are young men. They have got... Every young man has to satisfy senses in so many ways. But no. They are so enthusiastic, but... For understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have given up everything. They are Europeans, Americans. They have got so many allurement. But I have told them that "You must give up illicit sex," they have given up; "You must give up meat-eating," they have given up; "You must give up intoxication up to drinking tea and cigarette," and they have given up, these young men. So they are utsāhaḥ. There is enthusiasm: "Yes, we must do it." That is wanted, not theoretically on the armchair of devotional service. That will not be successful. Armchair theory will not help you. You must be practical and there must be enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. You are sitting in the same position and you are thinking that you are making progress. That will fail. You have to come out with enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. That is required.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Any association which is Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can join.
Indian man: Thank you for the enlightenment. But I have got one other doubt. You had told that some great scholars like Mahatma Gandhi had confused and they did not believe in the Kṛṣṇa living, He ever lived, and Dr. Radhakrishnan and another also were not clear in enunciating the theory of Kṛṣṇa. I would like to know whether Kṛṣṇa living or not living, is it very important? And will the movement depends upon one Kṛṣṇa living, positive...
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Kṛṣṇa is never not living—He is living. Otherwise how He can be Kṛṣṇa? But if you do not know whether He is living or not living, that is your lack of knowledge.
Indian man: Do you believe Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all settle up this one question, that Kṛṣṇa is always living, and if you do not know whether Kṛṣṇa is living or not living, then your knowledge is imperfect. Therefore your knowledge will not be accepted, because you are imperfect. That is the point.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is needed. That is needed. That is needed. If you do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, when Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, how you will accept it?
Indian man: I will accept, but not as Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata. I may not know anything about Him as of...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is not very good theory. You do not know anything about Him, and you surrender to Him. What is this?
Indian man: We may have our own idea.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. If we surrender, we must know Him first of all, what He is. Then we surrender. We are not blind. Suppose you tell me that "You surrender unto me." Shall I do that? Why shall I do it?
Indian man: But...
Prabhupāda: No "but." First of all answer this. If I do not know anything about you and you demand from me, "You surrender," shall I do it?
Indian man: I will be knowing what He has preached, if I... That preaching itself is enough and we need not look anything about Him. We can surrender.
Prabhupāda: That He preaches...
Indian man: That preaching is enough.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Indian man: We have accepted, but Kṛṣṇa need not be one form as somebody else has written...
Prabhupāda: That... Just like... That form is God also.
Indian man: That is also an imagination of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That form is also God. Accepting your theory that there are many forms of God, so that form is also God.
Indian man: That form, OK, I agree...
Prabhupāda: So we accept Him, God, either way.
Indian man: But need not be a definite form. He need not have a definite form.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. There may be different form. But that form is God. Then you have to accept Him God.
Indian man: Yes, OK. And when I say one form, it may be formless also, and I may...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, that form is God. You have to accept.
Prabhupāda: ...fact is that if you have got different views about Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot prove that from the Bhagavad-gītā. That you cannot prove. If you take Bhagavad-gītā, then you must present it as it is. Don't distort it. You may have got some idea, but you explain that idea in your different book. But don't place it as the explanation of Bhagavad-gītā. That is not very good. If you have got different theory, you can write in a different book. But we cannot permit or do not like that as the commentary of Bhagavad-gītā you will place something different. That is not very honest. You put your own theory. Why should you try to put your theory through Bhagavad-gītā? That we protest. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that "There is no superior authority than Me." Therefore He is the God. Mām eva ya prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything." And if you have got different idea, that somebody else is the origin, that you can explain differently. But you cannot keep it as explanation of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: The point is... Yes.
Guest: ...and Muhammad's teaching is supposed to be the superior one. So everybody thinks that his way or his way of thinking, his theory, his religion is the most superior one.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. If you accept progress... Just like you are seeing the sun, I am also seeing the sun, the boy is also seeing the sun, but the understanding of the sun may be different. Everyone is seeing the sun. The objective is the same. But a child's understanding of sun and an elderly man's understanding of sun, a scientist's understanding of sun, or one man who has actually gone to the sun planet, there are different categories. Do you accept or not? The sun is there. God is accepted in every scripture. That is a fact. But in the same way, how far He is understood, that is different. That is different. The same example, that everyone is seeing sun: "Here is sun," there is no doubt. But a child's understanding of sun, his father's understanding of sun, or a scientist's understanding of sun, or a person who has gone to the sun planet, his understanding of sun is different. The objective is the same. And everyone is right. Either you understand fully sun or not, as soon as you come before the sun you get the light. The child is getting the light, the scientist is getting the light, and the ordinary person getting the light. Everyone is getting light, heat and light. But their understanding different, of degrees. (break) ...sun-god or sun, no, we don't say that.
Prabhupāda: "God is dead" or "There is no God." "By science, we shall do everything," and this and..., all nonsense theories. Our proposition is that glorify that supreme scientist. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam.
Guest: And the supreme scientist is God.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He's God. Yes.
Guest: God, or you can give another name as you like, any way.
Prabhupāda: No, God or the Supreme Being. God means the Supreme Being in the dictionary. He is not like you, not like me.
Guest: What about...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, He is supreme. We are not supreme. But this subordinate person, he wants to take the position of the supreme by manufacturing a drop of water in the laboratory.
Prabhupāda: We don't beg money from them. We take their money in the way that they'll use it for bad purposes, so we take it for Kṛṣṇa. They'll drink. They'll smoke. They'll have illicit sex and go to hell. Therefore, out of our humbleness, we have become beggar, just like a father asking the child... He has taken one hundred rupees note and spoiling. "My dear child, you are so nice. Why you are taking this? Give this. Take a lozenges." Like that. We are not for their money. That's a wrong theory.
Pañcadraviḍa: But they say this drinking and smoking, it's all right, but you are parasites because you're taking our money.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: They say that smo...
Prabhupāda: I'm not after... I kick on your face. I don't want your money. (laughter.) You are taking books from us, and you are paying. Therefore I have adopted this means. They may not say... I knew that they would say in the Western countries. Therefore I thought that without books it is not possible. What is this?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Come this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayapatāka is pointing to...
Prabhupāda: All of a...
Śrutakīrti: We can cross right... No? No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: You haven't got to leave anything, provided you understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not after leaving or accepting. We are not after this. We are after understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What... What shall I leave? Suppose if I leave city—I come here—still it is God's property. So what, what I leave? What I have got that I have to leave? Everything God's property. If you have something, then you can leave. But if you have nothing, what you will leave? It is another bogus. This is Māyāvādī theory. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Why jagan mithyā? If Brahman is satya, jagan is also satya. (break) ...means they are trying to possess, and the jñānīs are trying to leave—both of them rascals. Where is the question of possessing? Stealing. You... I want to possess, but that thing does not belong to me. Therefore it is stealing. And the jñānīs are trying to give up living. That is also not truth. But you haven't got anything, so what you are going to leave? So both are in ignorance, the karmīs and jñānīs, the yogis. Simply Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, they are in knowledge. Before your birth the land was there, the world was there. Everything is there. Now you came. Then how do you possess? Before your birth, things were there. How do you possess unless you steal and cheat? Hm? What is the answer?
Pañcadraviḍa: I have inherited it.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: They say that man inherits the property of his father, which is God.
Prabhupāda: That means you must obey your father. Otherwise you'll be kicked. (Laughter) You are so rascal that you don't feel obliged to your father who has given you so much things, so many things. You are such a rascal. Therefore you must be punished.
Prabhupāda: You were present that time?
Trivikrama: I heard the tape. So now he is an animal. He knows.
Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) So I am just interested, but people will, many people will come and many theories. So you discuss among yourself how to get the strength to defend yourself and to convince them.
Acyutānanda: But unless their theology is practical, if it is not practical, then it is useless to study theology, if it has no practical application.
Prajāpati: They make that point. "Therefore," they say, "such talk about God is impractical. So therefore we don't bother talking about God."
Prabhupāda: "Then why you put theology?" That is our point. "Then why you have put this theology?" "There's no use talking of God"—that is another thing. But when you make "logy," you must come to logic. "Logy" means discussion. Is it not? "Logy" means science?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: "...of logic, in conformity with principles of logic."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Science of reasoning.
Prajāpati: In words.
Prabhupāda: So "logy" means logic.
Acyutānanda: If you say what you are..., your own theory, cannot be done, that's illogical.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: If you propose a theory and say, "It can exist," then that's an illogical presentation. A rabbit's horn. (break) It can't exist. Sky-flower. Doesn't...
Madhudviṣa: So couldn't the scientists say that it's God's will that when, when there is a...
Prabhupāda: Now, now according to their theory, there was no human being. And from uncivilized man, they are becoming... They have taken to science, say, for last two hundred years. Before that, how things were going on without these rascals?
Madhudviṣa: They say, "uncivilized."
Prabhupāda: Eh? Uncivilized. And they are..., he was producing the soul, man? They're uncivilized? This, such nice... That is another exposal of their rascaldom.
Madhudviṣa: They say modern man is living much more comfortably than he did two hundred years ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
madhu: This is our advancement.
Prabhupāda: What is that comfortable? What is the comfort? Give me the example of comfort?
Trivikrama: Air conditioning.
Brahmānanda: Music
Madhudviṣa: Cameras.
Pañcadraviḍa: Tape recorders.
Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) These are comfortable?
Prabhupāda: "So then pay more money. Come on. You have earned money and give me. I shall give you food. And whatever I shall ask, you have to pay." This simple thing, more demand-price is more. Then why do you gripe, "Oh, everything is price growing, price growing." Why it will not? If I have got food, and you have to purchase, and I have got so many customers, I must increase. That is economic theory: more demand—the price is increased. And then you say, "There are so many problems. We have to solve first." But you have created this problem, rascal. And you shall must suffer. You have infected some disease. Now you must suffer. It is like say, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The reason is that you have infected some quality of the modes of nature and you must suffer for that. How you can deny it? If you have infected some disease like cholera, smallpox, and when you are suffering, how you can blaim? You have infected. You must suffer. Nature's law is so strict that as soon as you infect a particular type of quality of nature—there are so many—you must suffer for that, or so-called enjoy. There are two things, suffer and enjoy. So you must have to undergo the process. This is... Nature's process is so nice. As soon as you do something, there is reaction and you are bound up. Yajñārthe karma anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Bandhanaḥ means bound up. Immediately you become bound up. And still, you are thinking, "Independent." The nature's law is so strict.
Prabhupāda: No attraction. He is duty... He is, what is called, duty-bound, assigned by Kṛṣṇa, or He's not ordered. Kṛṣṇa expands in Mahā-Viṣṇu and takes charge of this affair.
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: Before I was asking about the scientific theory that the atoms are always moving, and you said that the earth is not moving now.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: You said that the... You pointed to a chunk and said that it is not moving. But they're...
Prabhupāda: But if you..., then you are also moving. Everything is moving because you are on the earth. When the train moves, everything moves. But how it moves, train? That you have to search out. Train is not automatically moving. Some power, engine, is moving it. That is blind vision, that "Train is moving." How the train is moving? You have to see. That is childish. Train is not moving. The engine is moving the train. And how the engine is moving? The coal, fire, is moving. Then wherefrom the coal come? In this way, you have to search out. You'll find, ultimately, the supreme cause is Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is moving without Kṛṣṇa's indication.
Prabhupāda: The energy is: Kṛṣṇa is there. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). The asura's business is to avoid Kṛṣṇa. That is their business. And our business is to establish everywhere Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between them and ourself.
Rāmeśvara: There is one theory that even the atoms have intelligence because the way they combine together to form larger molecules...
Prabhupāda: That means that is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. They do not see Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand the whole philosophy because you have to preach and you have to confront so many atheist rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These scientists need gurus.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists need guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never even think of these things.
Prabhupāda: When they are captured and cornered, they say, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do that." Post-dated check. "You take this check. In future it will be paid." Who will accept that check?
Rāmeśvara: To that, they always say that in the past, man laughed at some scientific theories, and later they were proven...
Prabhupāda: It is not scientific. It is all rascaldom. What you are giving, that is not science, that is rascaldom. Why shall I accept it is scientific? Because you have no full knowledge. What you are giving, it is simply rascaldom. Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Might have (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we cannot believe what we don't see.
Haṁsadūta: Actually the scientists don't accept this theory at all any more about the man...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: The more advanced scientists, the more up-to-date ones, they reject this whole Darwin thing. But it's become so ingraded in the minds of the people that they have published, this Life, Time Magazine, they publish millions of books and sell it. People read about ape man, the man came from the ape and so on. It's become such a popular, it's like a fairy tale.
Prabhupāda: Propaganda, it is propaganda. That's all. Propaganda, you can do any false thing (indistinct) say. This is called, propaganda is called in Bengali dāsa cakre bhagavān butha (?). Dāsa cakre bhagavān butha. Bhagavān, one gentleman's name was Bhagavān and he spread, conspired that let us, make us some joke that she has become ghost. So wherever he was going, the friend: "Oh, oh, a ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost!" (everyone laughs) "No, no, I am not..." (indistinct) ...this man has become crazy, why he (indistinct) Then he goes another friend, then he also says like that, "Oh, here is a ghost, here is a ghost, here is a ghost!" (everyone laughs) Then third friend, everyone, because they have conspired. Then he began to think, "I must have become ghost." (laughter) So certainly I'm... (indistinct) all friends have calling me, "Ghost, ghost." That's dāsa cakre bhagavān... If you make propaganda, if he's not ghost, you can make him ghost. This is propaganda. This is called propaganda. By propaganda you can establish a false thing as real. That's all. This is going on. They know how to do it. They're expert because they're cheaters. They know how to do it.
Prabhupāda: How they are becoming foolish, that they are reading Bhagavad-gītā and they are accepting original tradition of the Māyāvāda? In the original tradition of Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, Kṛṣṇa said, ahaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: "I said. I am person." How these rascals are accepting imperson? Why do they read Bhagavad-gītā? If they have got different theory, let them differently... They are cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is popular. Therefore they are taking advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and pushing on impersonalism. But here the tradition begins, ahaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ. Where is imperson? So if they want to be cheated willingly, who can save them? They are reading Bhagavad-gītā and devīating from the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Then what is the meaning?
Amogha: They don't know. They simply...
Prabhupāda: That means they are so rascal, that... You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You must take the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are taking other words? What business you have got?
Amogha: They think by majority, most people think like this...
Prabhupāda: Majority or minority, it doesn't matter. But why you should take Bhagavad-gītā to establish your rascal theories? That means you are cheating.
Prabhupāda: Why should you? Why should you? Why should you take Bhagavad-gītā? There are different philosophers. They have got different theories. You make your theories. But why should you make your theories on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they want to study the Bhagavad-gītā...
Prabhupāda: But that is not... If you study, you study as it is.
Amogha: They can't read Sanskrit.
Paramahaṁsa: They don't know. They think "We have to accept from these different swamis. They are the authorities."
Prabhupāda: Why you should? If you do not know Sanskrit, why don't you learn Sanskrit, one who knows Sanskrit? What is this nonsense? I say, "Give me a glass of water," and you do not know Sanskrit, you say, "No, it is not meant for him; it is meant for me." What is this?
Prabhupāda: All right, you become very good bluffer. That's all. We don't accept you. All the ācāryas, they did not accept, those who are authorities. Vyāsadeva, he did not accept these foolish theories. Nārada never accepted. Recent ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Caitanya. Why shall I accept these third-class professors? Kick on their face. We have got authority to support this.
Gaṇeśa: I think they want to interpret Bhagavad-gītā because they do not want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is the idea. That is the real purpose. They want to kill Kṛṣṇa. That is the endeavor of Hiranyakasipu, Kamsa, that "We shall kill Kṛṣṇa." And ultimately they become killed. Their faith is like that.
Prabhupāda: So this duty is that you better go to your mother. All nonsense theory. It has no meaning.
Śrutakīrti: If everything is all right, then my preaching that is also all right.
Prabhupāda: Your preaching is all right, so, provided you preach something good. But when everything is good, then where is the, your preaching required? You preach something. Just like we are preaching. We are preaching. This is actually good for, that he must know what he is and what is the ultimate goal of life. This is required. Material preaching has no value. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Ei bhāla ei manda, saba manodharma: " 'This is good; this is bad,' this is all mental concoction." Actually. But real good is: "He has forgotten God. Revive his consciousness." That is real good. Then he'll saved from the so-called good and bad and everything. That is wanted. Materially, everything is one man's food, another man's poison. Therefore there is no distinction—"This is good; this is bad." The stool is very bad, bad smell for you, but it is food for the pig. This is proof—"One man's food, another's poison." So this is only mental concoction, "This is good; this is bad."
Devotee (1): When Rāvaṇa was on the earth, was the whole earth populated, like Brazil and also the other parts of the world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere population. This is a new theory of the rascals that there was no civilization before three thousand years. This is wrong theory. Everything was there.
Devotee (1): So when Mahārāja Yayāti banished his sons to those kingdoms, they were already populated there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Paramahaṁsa: They seem to be pretty much kṣatriya races.
Prabhupāda: And during Kurukṣetra fight, all different kings joined, either to this party or that party.
Amogha: Oh, from all over the world.
Prabhupāda: It was first-grade world war, Kurukṣetra. There is the one king, Śaibya, he came from Śibiya. Where is Śibiya?
Amogha: Siberia?
Prabhupāda: Śibiya.
Prabhupāda: All rubbish theory. Life is mentioned Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-gaḥ: "everywhere." And why these rascals say there is no life?
Paramahaṁsa: They want to see with telescope.
Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, this telescope. That is their defect. They do not admit the imperfection of the senses. What we calculated? How many billions?
Śrutakīrti: To the sun?
Prabhupāda: No, no, the length and breadth.
Śrutakīrti: Oh, it is four billion miles.
Prabhupāda: Four billion miles. So how much the telescope can see? Can you see four billion miles? Eh? Where is the telescope? If you cannot see perfectly even ten miles, with telescope you can see, say, a hundred miles or something more, something, but can you see four billion miles?
Śrutakīrti: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of this telescope? (pause) Nothing will be finished. God's resources are unlimited, but they will be finished. Making research, research, they will be finished. God's resources will not be finished, but they will be finished. Unnecessarily they have created necessities of life. In this way, in blind capacity, they... After fifty years where this big geographist is going? He does not know. And he is thinking what will happen hundred years.
Prabhupāda: Basic.
Amogha: Yeah. It explains it very clearly. That will clear up any misconception.
Prabhupāda: That law of gravity is a bogus theory. The... Sixteen hundred thousand miles... Sixteen hundred thousand miles below the sun is the Rāhu. They are going there.
Amogha: Rāhu. Seems like all the planets, they have that space interval of sixteen hundred thousand miles. Most of the sun...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Amogha: ...and then the moon and Venus. That two hundred thousand yojanas.
Prabhupāda: When the Rāhu happens to be between the two planets, sun and moon, there is eclipse.
Amogha: When the orbits intercross.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Higher form maybe, but there is form.
Jesuit: You take a musician like Beethoven, a musician...
Prabhupāda: We also say that the God has got form but not form like this.
Jesuit: No, he hasn't got form in Aristotle's idea of the word form either, his higher wathic(?) theory of matter and form. In a sense, form there means spirit and so...
Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual form.
Jesuit: ...but we're not using it in that sense. When you're using the word form, you mean a material form like a shape, a body...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say material form, spiritual form.
Jesuit: Well, I haven't understood you then. God, you say, has a form.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual form.
Jesuit: Aḥ well, matter of words, I can understand that. He has a...
Prabhupāda: Not this form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, we admit that.
Jesuit: It's that I haven't understood. Sometimes you get pantheists who talk as though God is made up of a sum total of...
Prabhupāda: That is a theory, that is a theory, that is not fact.
Jesuit: No, it's a false theory because it goes against all logic and philosophy.
Prabhupāda: But no, theory in this form that God is everywhere, by His potency but everything is not God. This is our philosophy. God is everywhere. Just like the sunshine. Sunshine is spread everywhere but that does not mean that everything is sun.
Jesuit: That's true.
Prabhupāda: It is like that. God is all-pervading by His potency. This book, this is also energy of God. Find out this verse, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit: People have always obeyed God.
Prabhupāda: They'd kill. Instead of loving, they kill, so they must suffer.
Jesuit: But it's not proved that the way of suffering is to come back in another form which is the theory of transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Just like you're in this apartment, you can go to another apartment and that apartment may not be exactly like this. It may be better or it may be worse. Similarly we have entered, find out the tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ.
Journalist: Are people using the wrong things to live too sophisticated?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be. Because he is foolish, he will do all nonsense..., wrong things, which will create unhappiness. To deny God means foolishness, and foolish man simply will create trouble. Just like monkey. Monkey is always busy by simply creating trouble, that's all. And they are claiming, the foolish Darwin's theories, they also claim that monkey is our forefather.
Journalist: Is that true? Do you believe that?
Prabhupāda: No, I have told you already, the evolution. The monkey is not our forefather, but in the evolutionary process we came through monkey. That is a fact. Because that is an animal, so we have to pass through three million varieties of animal's body. So monkey is one of them.
Journalist: When did we stop becoming the monkey and start to become a man?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that depends. By nature's course, you automatically come to human body. Now, in the human body it is a junction, whether you want to make further progress and if you want to go back again to the cycle of the birth and death and the evolutionary process. That is to be decided by you. If you want to go to God, you can go. And if you want to become again a monkey, you can do that. That will depend on your work. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they say. They say, oh yes. I have met many scientists. They say that "We shall solve everything by scientific advancement. We have done already." They say like that.
Guest 1: But just because they...
Prabhupāda: Just like there is a big theory, chemical theory. One big scientist... Big or small, whatever he may be, he has got a Nobel Prize.
Guest 1: He's medium sized. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest 1: He's medium sized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is making the theory that life has come from chemicals by chemical combination, chemical evolution. Darwin's theory is also of that. This is their... Big, big scientists, they are so fool that life has come from matter. Where is the proof? He was lecturing in California University, and there was one student. He is my disciple. He challenged him that "If you get the chemicals, whether you can manufacture life?" That answer was, "That I cannot say." Why? You are putting this theory, that life has come from chemicals. So science means observation and experiment. Now experimentally prove that the chemicals have produced a life.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but these different bodies, and the soul is transmigrating, that they do not know. The soul is getting a different type of body according to his desires, not the body is developing. This I have explained many times, that you get the apartment according to the rent you are able to pay, not that a small apartment is becoming a skyscraper building. That is their theory.
Bali-mardana: But is there a great time period between the different divisions of the creation?
Prabhupāda: No, everything is there already. It becomes manifest. Just like beneath the water there is land already. And when the water will dry, land will be manifest. Not that the land is created. No, it is already there. (break)
Guru kṛpā: ...told us last time that actually the earth did not come out of the water, but the water receded, and this is how this Hawaii came.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guru kṛpā: There was water covering everything, and then the water receded, and then the land was there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. From creative method, from water, land has come.
Prabhupāda: He will think, "What is next? Is it finished here?" The rascal says, "No, after finishing, everything is finished." What is this? If there is evolution—you have come to this stage —then what is the next stage? That is natural. That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). Now you can go to the moon planet if you try. Moon planet, sun planet, Venus and so many. If you become serious. And you can go to God's planet, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Now you select where will you will go. But there is spiritual planet. But what is their theory? That after finishing this body, everything is finished.(?) They do not believe in the next life.
Bali-mardana: Therefore their life must be hopeless.
Prabhupāda: Hopeless, yes. (break) Yes, you can send him to India.
Guru kṛpā: But there is no "after" here because there is so much to plant here.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all.
Devotee (1): Yesterday at night we got many plants, and this morning also we got lots of more plants, flower plants.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. But somebody may learn from him and go to India. (end)
Prabhupāda: Then that's all right. How you are supreme? You cannot create like that. How you are supreme? Simply by claiming "I am supreme"?
Gurukṛpa: Well, if they discover a theory, then they think that that makes them supreme.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Theory you may discover, but you have not created. That's a fact. That's a fact.
Bali-mardana: They refuse to accept God because they can neither prove nor disprove.
Prabhupāda: But no, no. God you prove or disprove, but first you have to accept that you have not created.
Bali-mardana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How is that you are thinking that you have created or somebody... You have not created this. Somebody else. Now who is that somebody else, that we shall find out. But you have not created. You accept it.
Prabhupāda: Not līlā. There is meaning. You can say it is līlā. Where now? That's not... It is very rough.
Gurukṛpa: There's a beach after this.
Bali-mardana: The whole theory of the scientists about the evolution of man—it rests on about four bones. The whole theory is based on a few bones they have found, about four different bones from the... One tooth and a jawbone and one more bone that they say are so many millions of years old. And this is the whole basis for their theories.
Prabhupāda: So there are so many bones. Why don't you create living entity from the bones?
Śrutakīrti: This side is very dirty. (break)
Prabhupāda: Light is light so long the sun is not there. Similarly, all these scientists are scientists so long God is not there. And as soon as God is there... Just like our men. They do not care for all this shining, shining light of scientists. The glowworm, they are light so long it is darkness. When it is sunshine, there is no use of these glowworms. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is the Vedic instruction. If you understand God, then you understand everything. Then you will not be allured by the so-called rascal scientist. Accident and this, that, bone. We are not interested. This side is better than the other side. When I was coming to America by ship, at night I was seeing, about hundred miles away there is one ship, a little light. There is a difference, so many miles. Vast ocean. Somebody live there always? No. Somebody is there.
Prabhupāda: Friction, yes. There is so much sound. So why it is not falling down?
Indian man: The scientist says the pull of gravitation starts only so high.
Prabhupāda: Why it is not working in all heights? Then what is their theory? If it is working under certain condition, who made this condition? (break) ...the nature, "Now you get down these islands. Get(?) the water," can they do that?
Bali-mardana: No, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Then how they will come to know? (break) ...Kṛṣṇa wants, immediately this land, by earthquake, can go down, immediately, within a second. So in the Vedic literature nature is accepted. But the creation, maintenance, destruction, that is in the hand of God, not nature. (break)
Bali-mardana: ...used to say that they can control the weather. They used to make big propaganda, "We are now going to control."
Prabhupāda: Another foolish propaganda.
Bali-mardana: When Puruṣottama heard that, he blooped. (Devotees continue laughing.)
Prabhupāda: Yes. In 1968 I was questioned by the reporters, "What is your opinion about this moon?" "It is simply a waste of time and energy, that's all. It is all false propaganda." I told to the reporter.
Harikeśa: Actually, these scientists and philosophers, they become very famous and popular by coming up with some brand new theories. So why don't we widely publicize our theories?
Devotee (3): (break) ...real information about the moon from the Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: Veda. Veda means knowledge. What is this? Some animal?
Paramahaṁsa: Fish. It has those horns, spines, so that no one can bother it. Protection.
Paramahaṁsa: It's a porcupine fish.
Bali-mardana: Blowfish.
Śrutakīrti: They blow up like a ball. When someone comes to them, they expand very large.
Paramahaṁsa: And their spines stick out straight. It's very dangerous.
Bali-mardana: Poisonous. (break)
Śrutakīrti: It's twenty-five before seven.
Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do we say that they've gone to Rahu simply to placate them?
Prabhupāda: No, accidentally they went to Rahu. Maybe. That is also not...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Paramahaṁsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory.
Paramahaṁsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.
Siddha-svarūpa: We don't need to make experiments.
Harikeśa: They can make these little amoebas but they can't make ants.
Prabhupāda: Amoebas, that is automatically... By perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: udbija, jarayuja, svedaja, and, what is other? Andaja. Andaja means life comes from the egg. That is called andaja. And life comes from, under certain circumstances... Just like trees, grass. It is called udbija. And then jarayaja, just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And svedaja. And some living entities come out from perspiration.
Upendra: ...Protestant work ethic. Protestant work ethics. The western culture has developed because of that work ethic based on, "You work hard and go to church." "Work hard and believe in God," this is the advancement, why western culture is..., is one theory why it's...
Prabhupāda: Why shall I believe in God? What is the benefit? Work hard... Now, of course, I shall work hard; I will get money. That's all right. Why shall I believe in God?
Śrutakīrti: Because if you work hard and believe in God then He'll save you at death. By working hard, then you'll be saved.
Prabhupāda: That's what the Communists say. They do not believe in God. So?
Harikeśa: Believing in God makes it all worthwhile. It makes you feel better while you're working hard.
Prabhupāda: Those who are atheists, they are also working hard. They are feeling nice by drinking. Why shall I believe in God? Let me drink.
Prabhupāda: What is the front?
Brahmānanda: Between the sun and the earth the moon comes.
Jagannātha-suta: Lunar eclipse.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Eclipse is different, not according to their theory. That planet is called Rahu.
Devotees: Ah yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not the moon. That's Rahu.
Revatīnandana: So Rahu covers sometimes the sun and sometimes the moon?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: This Rahu planet's invisible? We cannot see this with our eyes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why you believe your eyes so much? (laughter) Nonsense eyes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: There's this psychology book, and he says that the light spectrum is this long, and that we can see this much of the spectrum of energy. Very nice, this book makes many points that agree with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy.
Bahulāśva: So, Prabhupāda, you say that these astronauts have gone to the Rahu planet.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they might. That is also very difficult.
John Mize: They think there's a mind, but not a soul.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Something is there which is working. Now that may be mistake. You call it soul or mind. That is next understanding. But the machine is not working independently. That should be understood first. Then how the machine is working that will be next chapter. So they have no understanding even that how the machine is working. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That they do not know, mūḍhas. So if you do not know how the machine is working then what is the value of your education? Education means enlightenment. You do not know what is the final cause, that huge body is working as nature, so many planets, so many big, big planets like sun, moon, they are floating in the air. Who has made this arrangement? They are... We see every day. They will never accept God is the original cause. That thing does not come to their brain. They are putting forward different theories and that is being accepted. One theory is accepted today, and tomorrow, "No, no, this is not. Here is another, advanced theory." That advanced means he does not know.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Brahmānanda: Each man presents his own theory.
Prabhupāda: That is theosophy, that is not theology. Theosophy means a system of speculation, that's all. And theology does not require. Biology. Logy means science. They say anthropology, but it is not logy; it is theory. "Maybe," "200,000,000's of years." What is this? Logy does not mean that.
Jayatīrtha: Still, they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology.
Prabhupāda: Just like astrology. That is a science. Eh? What is that?
Jayatīrtha: But still they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology, even they don't know anything about it.
Prabhupāda: You can do. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. When there is no tree, the small castor seed oil tree... It is not much. It becomes a very big tree. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. The castor seed plants, they are taken as big tree. (break) Actually, theology is Bhagavad-gītā. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: They have another theory, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Any theory, they are all rascals, that's all. (laughter) (break) ...arrangement in one planet, it has come accidentally by chunk bursting, and we have to believe them. This is their position. (break) ...this understanding comes automatically when one understands that he is soul, then. And that requires brain. Therefore we are discussing tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). We have to to create brain how to understand it. (break) ...phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavati alpa-medhasām. It is stated, alpa-medhasām, a slight brain substance. Medha, medha what is called, cere... cere...
Harikesa: Cerebral?
Prabhupāda: Cerebrum, yes. So intelligence becomes more more who has got more cerebrum. So psychologically, it is... A very intelligent man has got sixty-four ounce cerebrum. And woman, even she is very intelligent, is not more than thirty-four ounce. Therefore we don't find, amongst women, any big scientist. It is impossible. Don't be angry. (laughter) And these rascals giving equal rights. Just see. And Vedic civilization: "No, they should be protected." The woman should be protected by the father, by the husband, and by elderly sons. No independence. (break) ...she is my sister. She is old, about three years less than me, but she has got sons. She is very happy moving, protected by the sons. Even Kuntī, such intelligent woman, such educated and..., she also kept herself under her sons, the Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas lost the game. They were banished, but Kuntī was not banished. But she said, "Then how shall I...? I must go with my sons." Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra.
Yadubara: Actually, we're more active than ever before.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are rich man's son, Kṛṣṇa's son. Why shall I work? That is the nature. A rich man's son never works. He enjoys. We are dancing and taking nice prasādam. Why shall I work? What do you think? Poor man will work. Rich man, why they will work? He will enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor of all planets, and we are servants of Kṛṣṇa, a rich man's servant. Why shall I work so hard? The ass will work hard, not a human being. And that is the instruction of Rsabhādeva. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human life is not meant for working so hard simply for food and sex enjoyment. That is the business of the hogs. The hogs do like that. They work day and night to find out some stool, and as soon as a little strength, he enjoys sex without discrimination, mother, sister, anybody. Is that life? Tell them, "You are working like hogs, and we are living like human being. That is the difference." If somebody does not work like hog, does it mean he is escaping? (laughter) Just see. And the hog is asking to work like hog. Why human being will accept this proposal? Marshall theory. I was student of economics. He says the human nature is, unless he has got some obligation he will not work. That is the beginning of economics. If one has got sufficient to eat, he will not work. When he is obliged to work for some reason, he works hard. That is the economic theory. So nature is... It is not escaping. If I have got sufficient to eat, why shall I work? What is the answer? This is not escaping, it is comfortable life, not to work and get everything, all necessities. That is comfort. And working hard getting the necessities, that is for the hogs and dogs, not for human being.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: You tell the story of the potter. He has many pots. (Prabhupāda laughs) And he tries to imagine what it will be like when he becomes very wealthy.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense, waste time. (break) ...you are eating you will understand yourself, "Yes, I am eating, I am getting strength, I am getting satisfaction." But simply theory..., "What will happen after eating? What will happen?" You eat and you see what is happening. What is the use of asking this question? You eat and you will understand. (break)
Brahmānanda: ...Harrison, he wrote in his preface that "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: So he recommended everyone to take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...daily, guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā **, what is that?
Nitāi: Cittete koriyā aikya.
Prabhupāda:
- ār nā koriho mane āśā
So guru, your guru has said that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, observe these rules." Do that, don't speculate, and you will understand everything. (break) ...daily
guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya,
- ār nā koriho mane āśā **
No speculation, do it.
Harikeśa: The scientists have the theory that the brain, the intelligence is measured by creases in the brain, creases, not by size.
Prabhupāda: Not size, but what is the proof that the brain of woman has increased? Where is the proof?
Harikeśa: They think because the ego has increased, the brain has also increased.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice. (laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat.
Harikeśa: They become upset because they cannot dominate you.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of domination; it is the question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make progress.
Brahmānanda: In all other species...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in animals, the female animal becomes pregnant. That is the law. So where is independence? Let them pass resolution that "Henceforward, man will have to become pregnant." Is it possible?
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole civilization, American western civilization, is now bewildered by this theory of woman's liberation.
Prabhupāda: But how they will be liberated on this point? First of all let me know.
Jagadīśa: They're simply crazy.
Harikeśa: They may bring up the argument that they are not concerned that they have to bear children just as long as they can be superior.
Prabhupāda: Oh. This argument is like: "You go on beating me with shoes; still I am independent. I don't mind you are beating me with shoes, but I am independent." It is the argument like that.
Harikeśa: Darwin's whole theory rests on the fact, the speculation, that he can show bones. They take these bones and these evidences, archeological...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer?
Satsvarūpa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence.
Prabhupāda: But then you cannot do that. If you have seen all the bones, then you can conclude. You say, "Some of the missing." So how it is fact? You did not see it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 8,400,000 species.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Has he gone down the water? Then what is the...? simply speculation.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Factual scientific study would mean to study all 8,400,000 species?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is scientific study. But that is not possible. Therefore your theory is always imperfect because you cannot say that "I have studied all." You simply guess, "There is some gap, millions of years." So this is not study.
Brahmānanda: They say even there's a missing link, a part that they cannot explain. So they admit...
Prabhupāda: So that is not science.
Harikeśa: It's the most important part too.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say they are rascals. And rascals will believe.
Jayatīrtha: Once you said the missing link was your foot in their face. (laughter) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...logic also it is admitted that inductive logic is imperfect; deductive logic is perfect. (break) ...logic means śrota-panthā, paramparā, śruti, Vedic language, śruti. Śruti pramāṇa. Pramāṇa means evidence, and śruti means Veda. Pratyakṣa, anumāna, śruti. Pratyakṣa means direct, direct evidence, and anumāna, hypothesis. That is Darwin's theory, something like that. And śruti, Vedic. So out of these three kinds of evidences, śruti-pramāṇa is accepted as supreme, neither anumāna nor pratyakṣa. Pratyakṣa, you are seeing the sky, but you cannot say the length and breadth. You cannot say. You are seeing daily. If you say, "I have got this telescope," so that is an imperfect. and how you can see with your eyes directly, direct sense perception? Hypothesis, anumāna, guessing, that is also not perfect. And śruti, we take śruti from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. He says, aham evāsam agre: "Before the creation I was there." We take simply.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you might have found in your country. But that is not final that you have seen all the bones. (break) Darwin has... He is now dead. Now, even nowadays they are finding new bones. So how he studies perfect? He is now dead and gone. Brahmānanda: Actually they are finding bones now, they claim, that challenge his theory. They are much older than what he ever thought. So they have to change all the calculations. Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: Even their method for dating the bones is defective also. Prabhupāda: Hm? Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: They have a scientific, not scientific, but they have a process how they date the bones. It's called the carbon 14 dating process, and it's been proved defective. (break) Jayatīrtha: ...so many bones, they should draw the conclusion that the big problem is death. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is impossible, sir. You lick up your bones, but you have to die. You have to lay down your bone now.
Brahmānanda: Rich man doesn't have to work, and everything comes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is rich man. That is the explanation given by Marshall, a great economist. He says that unless one is obliged to work, nobody will work. That is his economic impetus. So the family affection gives impetus to work. He has to maintain the family. That is, he says, that is the beginning of economic development. Marshall theory. (break) ...kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. When there is attachment on account of Kṛṣṇa, that is detachment. Yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. He is attached to everything but not for his personal self. We are spending lakhs of rupees for constructing a temple, but we are not interested to construct a house or a skyscraper building. We are not interested. That is detachment. (break) We give up. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhe-vastunaḥ: "No, no, we don't touch money." Why? If the money can be utilized for constructing a nice temple for Kṛṣṇa, why we shall say, "We don't touch money"? Yes, give me as much money as you have got. Therefore you will find in India very, very big, big, costly temple, not skyscraper building. That is the sign. If any man had any money, he would spend it for Kṛṣṇa, not for his personal self. Personally he would be satisfied with a cottage. That is India's civilization.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?
Prabhupāda: Bone theory, studying the bone.
Harikeśa: I think you've broken the bone theory. (laughter) (break)
Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...so where is your chance to study these colors?
Jayatīrtha: That is a perfect explanation.
Harikeśa: I'm going to send this tape and have them add that to the book. You defeated Darwin so quickly this morning it was wonderful.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can send. You have no chance to study. How you can theorize? (end)
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. That is also speculation. (laughter) "Because I have failed, therefore there is no knowledge." This is also imperfect because how I can conclude like that? I am imperfect. I cannot decide this way or that way. So that is also. Vedic knowledge says that a conditioned soul has got four defects: illusion, mistake, imperfectness and cheating. Any conditioned soul. Even Brahma, he is receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye (SB 1.1.1). Ādi-kavi means Brahma. He is the most perfect person within this universe, Lord Brahma. So he is also receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Any conditioned soul, beginning from Brahmā down to the ant, they are defective in four ways: illusion, mistake, imperfectness and cheating. They know that "I am imperfect." Just this Darwin. He knew that he is imperfect, and he cheated so many persons—by false theory, which he cannot explain. He simply gives, "Perhaps millions of years' gap...," this, that. That is not knowledge. So the imperfect person is prone to become a cheater. So we should not take knowledge from the cheaters. What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The Śaivites, the Śaṅkarācārya.
Prof. Hopkins: Śaṅkarācārya, I know he is.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaṅkarācārya's theory is the ultimate, the Absolute Truth is impersonal. And one can imagine a personal form for the benefit of the worshiper.
Prof. Hopkins: But there are some worshipers of Śiva who would be personalists.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prof. Hopkins: You would deny that.
Prabhupāda: They are all impersonalists. They are pañcopāsana. Pañcopāsana means the ultimate, Absolute Truth is impersonal and Śaṅkarācārya recommended that you cannot worship the impersonal, so you conceive a personal form. So that he recommended five: the sun-god, Lord Śiva, Durgā, and Gaṇeśa, and? What else? And Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: The impersonalist theory is that I am now devotee. As soon as I become perfect I become one."
Prof. Hopkins: Oh.
Prabhupāda: That is their theory. Then there is no more difference. In the preliminary stage, when I am not perfect, I am worshiping some imaginary form of God. But when I become perfect there is no need of worshiping, I become one with God. This is impersonal. Now, actually, the Supreme has no form so they recommend whichever form you like to worship you can select out of these five. But their destination is the same. So somebody likes "I worship Śiva," somebody says "I worship Gaṇeśa," somebody says, "I worship Durgā," and Sūrya, or somebody says, "I worship Viṣṇu." So this Vaiṣṇava is impersonalist. You'll find amongst smārta brāhmaṇas there are also some of them Vaiṣṇavas, but they are impersonalists.
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī philosophy is defective. They say if everything is God then where is the Lord's separate existence. That is their defect. That is materialist theory. If you take a big paper and make it into small pieces and throw it away, then the big paper is lost. (laughs) The Māyāvādī thinks like that, that if everything is Brahman, Brahman is distributed, then where is..., why you call the Supreme Lord? They think that Brahman being distributed, He is finished. This is Māyāvādī. He does not know the potency of God. And that is stated in Upaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam.
- pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ
- pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate
- pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya
- pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate
- (Iso Invocation)
In the material sense one minus one is equal to zero. In the spiritual world pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya. The one is pūrṇa and if you take the whole one it is still one. That they cannot understand, the poor brain. They think materially. If the one is complete and if one is taken away then it becomes zero. What kind of God is only zero? But Upaniṣad says pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. If from the complete you take the complete, it still it is complete. That they cannot understand. That is God. We say why complete is complete always? Why complete may be zero? No.
Dharmādhyakṣa: One school. Then there's another school. They say, "How can you base a theory of human nature on animals?" They do not like this. They are revolting against making man an animal.
Bahulāśva: Bhagavad-gītā gives the best psychology.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: How to control the mind to uplift the self.
Prabhupāda: (break) So why the dogs cannot construct such building? (break) ...psychology? Why they haven't got the same psychology?
Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, the scientists would say that "We have the same psychology. We have a material psychology, the dog has a material psychology, but we're just a little more advanced, that's all."
Prabhupāda: So similarly, there may be others who are still advanced. Therefore the most advanced is God. This should be the psychology. As we see there is difference between dogs and hogs and man, so go on. Search out. So when you find out the most intelligent person, then he is God. (break) ...parataraṁ nānyat. That is statement of Bhagavad-gītā: "No more intelligent. Here, ultimate. I am God." So from psychological point of view how they can deny God?
Yadubara: No one is teaching that in this big university. Therefore the students are very discouraged, depressed.
Prabhupāda: "I created God."
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And you were created by dog. (laughter)
Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a very big theory of the modern atheists that God is simply the creation of man's imagination in order to fulfill certain psychological needs.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the cause of creation?
Dharmādhyakṣa: Mother nature.
Prabhupāda: So mother nature... Where is the father? (laughter) You rascal, without father, mother can give any birth?
Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, it's asexual. There's some animals...
Prabhupāda: No, no. So animal is their father? Where is the father? It is all right, "mother nature," but everyone knows without father, mother is useless.
Prabhupāda: So you are people because you are nonsense. Say that, "Because you are nonsense. Why do you say people? You do not have any common sense even, that a mother gives birth to a child without a father."
Paramahaṁsa: Actually, Prabhupāda, just one month ago I read a book in Swedish, and they actually say there's three cases in Sweden where children were born without a father.
Prabhupāda: All right, let him satisfy there. But we have no such experience. We cannot accept his theory. He may be a single man to believe that. But no sane man will believe that. But we have got this answer. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Prakṛtiḥ, nature, is working under My direction." In the Brahma-saṁhitā: sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvana vibharti... (Bs. 5.44). bhuvanāni durgā, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Icchānurūpam. The nature is working under the direction of God, Govinda.
Bahulāśva: Now the scientists are studying the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they agree...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us know what they have done. What science they have done. They are proposing all nonsense theories, that nature is producing. So even if you accept nature as supreme, then you are subordinate. You are not independent. You are under... That also I explained. Pṛakrteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra vimu... (BG 3.27). Why you are thinking independent? You are being carried away by the ear, pulling, "Come here." You are thinking there is no birth, but there is birth. Every moment you are having a new life, new birth by the... You can say, "I will not become old man," but prakṛti will not allow you. You must become old man. You can say, "I will not die." You must die. So you are so dependent. Even if you accept only prakṛti, no father, you are a fatherless child, that's all right, but even the mother... You have to accept the authority of the mother. Where is your independence? You are thinking foolishly.
Paramahaṁsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...
Prabhupāda: Everyone now. India has also.
Paramahaṁsa: They're all afraid of using them.
Prabhupāda: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, right. History.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Śiva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off.
Prabhupāda: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it.
Prabhupāda: But you are not God. You are rascal. (laughter) That is Māyāvāda theory, that "Because God is everything, therefore I am God." That is Māyāvāda. Just like Vivekananda said, "Why you are finding out here and there God? Here is God, so many, on this street." That is his theory.
Jayādvaita: There was a book-yesterday someone was showing me—where Meher Baba was saying that everyone is in God and therefore everyone is God.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Everyone is within the space; therefore everyone is space? (laughter) Just see the logic. Such rascals, they are God.
Paramahaṁsa: Last week, Prabhupāda, you may have read that the Russians and the Americans sent up two rockets that met in outer space.
Prabhupāda: Hm, so what is the benefit?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, this is the point, is that... It was called the Soyez flight. In any case, they have announced... They made a joint speech where they said, "Together we can conquer outer space. That is the purpose." So now the Russians and the Americans are trying to get... to combine in their efforts to conquer.
Prabhupāda: Bora bora goye gala rasatala, vetta gore bole katha jala(?). There is a river. The horses, they can swim. So the river was so ferocious and many horses drowned. So one vetta gora, means third-class horse, he said, "How was the water? Let me try."
Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, it seems that they're complaining that people are depending on faith for their knowledge. So their claim is that "We do not depend on this faith. We simply take a group of facts, and from these facts, this strong body of facts, we develop a theory which will explain them."
Prabhupāda: Theory is not faith? Theory is not faith?
Jayādvaita: They say that the theory, it's simply an idea of how it could happen.
Prabhupāda: That is faith.
Jayādvaita: But they don't believe the theory until they think they have sufficient facts.
Prabhupāda: That is faith, I dare say, blind faith.
Rādhā-vallabha: These facts, these theories, are tested. By presenting more and more facts in the light of this theory, either the theory collapses under the new facts or it becomes strengthened. So by this method...
Prabhupāda: What are the facts?
Prabhupāda: Ah, accident. (laughter) That's all.
Rādhā-vallabha: So their observation is that even though this geometric progression of species is going on, still, the same amount of living beings in each species is remaining. So the theory to support this is that within each species there must be variations. And within these variations, certain ones are more favorable than others for survival. So in due course of time the unfavorable variations die out.
Prabhupāda: That is already there. You are living more than the ants. That is already there.
Rādhā-vallabha: Their claim is that within a particular species the variations from birth to birth...
Prabhupāda: Can they increase the life period of an ant?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, their claim is that this can happen.
Prabhupāda: "Can happen," that post-dated check again. This is the only shelter, post-dated check.
Prabhupāda: Very complex again. So they cannot understand. So complex that they cannot understand. So what is the use of such theory?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, they say these complex chemicals came from the simplest chemicals.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, they say in space there are many, many particles.
Prabhupāda: How the space came?
Rāmeśvara: That's eternal. They say it's eternal. They say the space and the dust...
Prabhupāda: Then why do you bother? Stop speculating. Everything is eternal. Why do you bother yourself to find out something new?
Rāmeśvara: To control. To gain control.
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot control because you are controlled. That is eternally you are controlled. You are controlled.
Prabhupāda: That is good. (break)
Yadubara: ...that theory is correct, isn't it, in a sense, that the bodies are always changing? The bodies are always changing, so from the outward appearance it seems that the evolutionary theory is correct.
Prabhupāda: No, that is... We, accepting evolution. But their evolution is that there is no soul who is the proprietor of the body. That they do not know.
Yadubara: So there is no meaning to their theory then.
Prabhupāda: Because in beginning is mistaken. (break) ...your education from wrong platform, then whole thing is wrong. (break)...study means that "I am this dress," then do you study me properly? So that is their intelligence. They are studying, Darwin studying, this body and no knowledge of the proprietor of the body. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: They argue that this Vedic philosophy is coming from India, and in India there is so much disease and so many problems, but here, where we have our science, there is no disease.
Prabhupāda: Because they are now fond of you. The Indians have become infected by you; therefore they are diseased. You are all diseased, and now you infected them, they have also become diseased.
Prabhupāda: God consciousness does not depend on distribution of food. It requires cultural education. It does not mean that one who has got enough food, he is God conscious. The food distribution is not one of the conditions for becoming God conscious. That is wrong project. "If people are given sufficient food, they will become God conscious"—that is not the fact. But people advance this theory, that "We are now economically distressed. We cannot turn our attention to God consciousness." That is a wrong plea. God consciousness does not depend on any material condition.
Ṛṣabhadeva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, earlier you had said that nature provides each species its foodstuff. But in other species other than man we see that it's immediately obtainable. But man has to work for it, and he has to wait for the fruits of his labor. Why is that nature's arrangement?
Prabhupāda: Nature's arrangement... In this material world you cannot eat without working. Even if you are lion-lion is considered to be the most powerful animal—he has to capture one animal. He cannot think that "Let me sleep, and the animal will come automatically in my mouth." It is not possible. You have to work; this is the material world. So that work is simple work. If you have got land... Everyone has got land. You just work little, and it will produce your food grains. And the food grains will give food to the animal and man. The animal, cow, he will eat the grass, and you will take the grains. Why should you kill the animal? You haven't got to arrange for his food. You produce paddy. The plant, when it is dried, it is good for animals, and you take the grains. Why should you kill him? And he will deliver you. If you protect his life, he will give you nice milk. So you keep animal, cows, and grow food grain; then your food problem is solved.
Prabhupāda: ...explain; therefore they bring this theory of chance. But we don't find any such chance in practical life. "There was a fool and he became high-court judge." Is there any? "There was a fool. He became a high-court judge." Is there any evidence like that? "There was ape. It became human, human being." I am simply surprised how this kind of argument is accepted by other fools.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if you don't accept it, then they fail you in the examination.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you don't accept and repeat it, then you become failed in the examination. Then you can't get a diploma. Then you cannot get a good job. So they force you to repeat it. (break)
Prabhupāda: Field. All of a sudden it became by chance a garden and beautiful, everything. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: El Cid Conquedor.
Jayatīrtha: He was a famous Spanish soldier.
Rāmeśvara: He fought the Muslims when they invaded Spain. He is a famous Spanish man who fought against the Muslims when they invaded. From Africa, they crossed over the sea and invaded Spain.
Brahmānanda: The Moors. (break)
Prabhupāda: This has got some meaning. What is this matchbox? There is earth, there is sands (sense?), there is comfort. So we shall go this way or...? (break) It is all vacant? (break) Big demonstration of cow fighting, bull fighting, and kill them. Such a Christian is trying to convert others as Christians! Just see the fun. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," and they are sporting with the life of bull, and they are Christian. We have to believe.
Prabhupāda: No other way.
Cyavana: They have no other way to learn, unless they will accept Veda, which they won't accept. (break) ...sense gratification. They enjoy making so many theories.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mano-ratha: "Chariot of mind."
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. By his chariot of the mind he will be driven to this material consciousness. (break) ...spiritual knowledge. Therefore, we see, big, big scientists, they are thinking that combination of matter can produce life. In spite of so much advanced learning, they do not know what is life. They cannot create life; still, they will theorize. How foolish they are. And as soon as you catch his throat, "Produce life." "No, we shall do it in future." Just see.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...is also known as Magadha. Magadha. That is the... Candragupta and others, they were reigning in Bihar, emperor of India. Jarāsandha also belonged to Bihar. (break) ...a great scientist?
Cyavana: Yes, I studied.
Prabhupāda: How this sand is made?
Cyavana: From the rocks it is... They call it weathering. The weather makes it ground up from the rocks. This is their theory.
Prabhupāda: No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it shells from the animals?
Cyavana: Some. Some from rocks, coral.
Prabhupāda: It is made from salt. It is called sodium silicate. (laughter)
Cyavana: They say this is combination of shells, coral, and rocks, ground up.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Oh. What do they?
Harikeśa: When we went to Hyderabad we spoke to the Archbishop, and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami asked him, "What is God?" And he said, "Well, nowadays there are so many theories as to what is God."
Prabhupāda: Theories.
Harikeśa: "Actually nobody knows."
Prabhupāda: Just see. A head of religious group, and he says, "There are so many theories." And this rascal is the head of the group. So what is the group?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They must be rascals too.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Devotee (2): Well, sometimes... Just like in the Kṛṣṇa book how Kṛṣṇa spoke to Kamsa out of the air, they say, "Well, God speaks but you can't see Him. But you can hear Him. He speaks sometimes out of the air."
Prabhupāda: Then God speaks. Then speaks means He has got mouth. Otherwise how He speaks?
Devotee (2): But they say, "Well, we couldn't see Him."
Prabhupāda: But you cannot see. Suppose there is some sound comes from the upstairs but you cannot see, but that does not mean that he is not there. This is nonsense. As soon as hear, he is speaking, he has got his mouth, he has got his head, he has got his brain. Everything comes, one point. And if you are rascal, fool—you cannot understand—that is another thing. Somebody is speaking from there. I hear, but I cannot see. Does it mean that he is not there? That is rascal said. Intelligent man will say, "As soon as there is something, immediately you can understand..."
Prahupada: So why it is not reflecting to other planets, only to the moon? Why special advantage to the moon? They have no reason. All rascals' philosophy. Why particularly to the moon? Why not others? Simply theories and mental speculation. They have no scientific. And the śāstra definitely gives the distance of the moon from the sun planet-1,600,000 miles. Then similarly (sic:) 1,600 million up, the Mars, then Venus, then..., everything. And moon is specifically mentioned that "It is so brilliant because there is fire, blazing fire. And the blazing fire is so illuminating that even at night it looks white, bright." This is reasonable because... Not that it is being reflected by the sun. The sun can reflect other planets, but it is there, fire. Just like sun there is fire, similarly, moon there is fire. The sun is not covered by cool atmosphere, but the moon is covered by cool atmosphere. Therefore it is pleasing. When there is sunshine and breeze, it is very pleasing. And no sunshine, simply breezing—it is not pleasing. And only sunshine, there is no cool atmo... That is also painful. But sunshine and breezing is very pleasing. So there is, like sunshine, blazing fire and surrounded by cool atmosphere. Therefore the moon is so pleasing.
Prabhupāda: The modern education, they do not accept soul?
Prof. Olivier: Part of it in theory perhaps, and at the junior stage. But as they...as we advance, there is either a complete neutrality or a...just a simple rejection of these truths.
Prabhupāda: They do not accept soul.
Prof. Olivier: They accept the soul, I think so, but they do not care to analyze what it means.
Prabhupāda: Oh. And it is without analyzing this, what is the education? First of all this should be analyzed, what is the distinction between a dead body and a living body. That must be analyzed. Otherwise what is the education? We are dealing with this body. The body is always dead. Just like a motorcar with driver and without driver. The car is always a lump of matter. Similarly, this body, with the soul and without the soul, is a lump of matter. Therefore the...
Prof. Olivier: Not worth very much.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: You rascal, you say that. What is that missing link? Simply bluffing, and it is going on in the name of science. Just see the fun. Simply misleading, and people are so rascal, this civilized man, so-called, he is accepting as great theory.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Accepting?
Prabhupāda: This Darwin's theory as very big invention or discovery. Simply childish rascaldom. There is no reason; there is no sense. Man came from monkey—why not coming now? Stop once. So what kind of men came first?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First there was very primitive man.
Prabhupāda: No, primitive…
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that he resembles a monkey very much.
Prabhupāda: So there are in Africa these men. They resemble that, what is called? That animal?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gorilla.
Prabhupāda: Gorilla. So these men are still existing. But why from gorilla they do not come?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don’t come from the gorilla.
Prabhupāda: First of all let them prove their theory. Then we shall prove ours. We are proving. We have got our own way. But why they are speaking all this nonsense? First of all let him prove that he is genuine. Then our turn will be next. Ours is very easy. Kṛṣṇa said to sun-god, and sun-god said to his son, his son, his son. It is coming like that. Where is the difficulty? Again Kṛṣṇa says, "Now it is mismanaged. It is lost, so I am saying again to you Arjuna." So what Arjuna has understood, we are understanding the same way. How Arjuna understood it, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is the… We have no difficulty. But you jump over: "There is link," that "Once only from monkey came." What is this nonsense? We have to believe this? Has it any sense? And because Mr. Darwin is speaking we have to accept it? We cannot…
Harikeśa: Well, certain changes take place. Just like when it is very hot, if you are in a hot climate all the time your blood thins.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the strong points of Darwin's theory…
Prabhupāda: I don’t find. Simply foolishness I accept. And rascal, foolish like you, will believe. (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They argue that five thousand years ago they have no history, so they think that before that time…
Prabhupāda: "They think." That is their rascaldom.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Formerly there was no civilization. Therefore like monkey.
Prabhupāda: "They think." That is their… We don’t "think." We have got millions of years' history. Why we shall think with them, with these rascals? They may think, the rascal. A child may think like something, but a elderly man will not think like that. Because they are thinking like that, we have to think with them?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Incubator. Put it there. Then we shall accept your science. Why don’t you do that? Then your all theories are useless. This is practical.
Harikeśa: It seems much more practical to make a computer than to make an egg. I mean, a computer…
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, do it. And from that egg, you get chicken. Then I shall accept that you are scientist. Otherwise you are rascal, talking all madman's proposal. Do it. Ask them. Write in the paper that "Prabhupāda was speaking like that, a challenge to the scientist: "Is there any scientist who can make an egg which is put in the incubator and gradually it comes to become …""
Harikeśa: They will think we are completely crazy.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, then kick on their face, on their nose, rascal. We are crazy or you are crazy?
Harikeśa: But who wants to make eggs?
Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no, it is an experiment. You say life comes from chemical. So by chemical combination make an egg and do it. Begin from this. Then we shall see others. This is very easy. If you have already analyzed the yellow portion of the egg, the white portion of the egg and that outer plastering can be done. Nowadays there is… What is called?
Harikeśa: Plastic.
Prabhupāda: Plastic. It can be done. Do it.
Harikeśa: There's nothing left to do.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have finished all their theories. Still, they could not do anything. This is their position. (break) Margarine is also another bluff. It is oil; it is taken as ghee, er, butter.
Harikeśa: They say it's very healthy for you.
Prabhupāda: They will say.
Harikeśa: It doesn’t have all those cholesterols.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise how they will sell? They will say. They will present anything nonsense in flowery language, and people will be cheated. That's all.
Harikeśa: Americans can’t stand this butter and ghee. When we cook in these pure things like ghee, they become very upset.
Prabhupāda: Because meat-eaters.
Prabhupāda: But why the ape does not give birth now?
Harikeśa: But we have not seen all the apes.
Prabhupāda: But how do you suggest?
Harikeśa: It's just a theory.
Prabhupāda: Then you'll... Then what you have not seen, how you can suggest? What is not in your experience, how you can suggest? Then anyone will suggest any nonsense, and we will have to accept?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that is the rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. How you can suggest?
Harikeśa: Even he says it was just a theory.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now, Prabhupāda, they say that they have been to the moon, and we're saying that the moon is so far away. And they have their pictures also to prove it.
Prabhupāda: Picture you can manufacture here.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually our theory, even taken as a theory, that the soul is there and enters the body, and when the soul leaves, the body is finished, it's very palatable, very palatable. Very few people argue with it. It's simply that they've been miseducated. Therefore they are cheated. They accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty, that, wholesale people have been miseducated. That is our protest. And this miseducated is ruling the whole world, all rascals (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cheated in some business transaction, they become very mad, angry, so much so sometimes they want to kill the opposing party. But when they are cheated in this way they don't mind so much, because their sense gratification, either way, is there. So only people who are serious about understanding the truth will accept these things.
Prabhupāda: We therefore submit our statement as it is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot say that we are cheating, because we are presenting something authorized, which is accepted. That's all. So we are not cheater. You may accept or not accept; that is your business. But we are presenting something standard. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Neither we are after false followers. If you agree, then you come. If you agree—"No illicit sex, no... Yes..." Why? There is no "Why?" You have to accept it. Then you come to me. That's all. If you like, you come; if you don't like, go away. I don't care for you. This is our policy. There is no "why?" You may say, "dogmatic," but it is not dogmatic but it is standard from Bhagavad-gītā, from Vedic literatures. Striya-suna-pana-dyuta yatra papas catur-vidhāh: (SB 1.17.38) "Wherever there are these four kinds of sinful activities, oh, that is very dangerous place." So we have taken it. (break) Now everyone, when there are so many cars... I saw one advertisement, Ford car, that "Bring all '79 cars and compare. Ours is the best." You cannot condemn him. It is advertisement. "Bring all '79 cars, others, and compare with our car." You can have your consent. That is not cheating. So we say like that, that "Bring all knowledge and compare with Bhagavad-gita's knowledge." Now it is up to you if you accept this or don't accept it. That is not cheating. But these rascals, they are simply placing some bogus theory without any authorized statement: "All of a sudden monkey once gave birth." And where is that authority?
Harikeśa: So if you fix one thing, another thing will just go bad?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot fix anything. You can simply think that "I am now fixed up." That is not possible. Even if you fix up one type of suffering, another type of suffering will come. So suffering must be there. The body means suffering. One should understand this, that asann api kleṣada asa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asannapi kleṣada asa dehaḥ. You are trying to adjust things, threefold miserable condition, but you should understand that as soon as you get this material body, it will be suffering only. Therefore whole Vedic civilization is a culture how to stop this material body. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also trying. The Buddhists, they are also trying. But they are thinking that "There is no soul. Finish this body." This is Buddhist theory. But they know that this is suffering. Similarly, the Māyāvādī, they also know this body is suffering, so they want to come out of the body and merge into the existence of God. The senses are already there, either Buddhist or Māyāvādī. And Vaiṣṇava philosophy is "Not only come out of this miserable condition of life, but enter into Kṛṣṇa's family and live peacefully." But so far the body is bad, it is accepted by all philosophies. Any kind of Indian philosophy, they will accept that body is bad.
Prabhupāda: (break) You have done good because you are waiting for somebody's decision. So the decision-maker can change. Otherwise so many people are working so hard day and night; he is not getting even sufficient food. And another man, without working, he is getting so much money. How it is possible? Hm? So God is not an instrument of your whims. He is fully independent. That is God. Agatan gatan patiyase.(?) By His different energy He can..., does something which is impossible to be done. Take for example myself. I went to United States, unknown country, without any friend, without any hope, simply on theory (chuckles) that "I shall go and preach there," and with this expectation also, that "As soon as I shall ask them to give up all these habits, they will ask me to go away." (laughs) So in the face of so many odds and uncertainty, I went there, simply depending on my spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, with this hope only, that "If they desire, everything can be done. But otherwise there is no hope. I am going there, hopeless, just to make an experiment. My other Godbrothers, they failed. All right, Guru Mahārāja asked me. In the beginning I did not do. Let me do it in this old age." So it became surprisingly success. Business started with forty rupees, and now we have got four crores. Where is that business in the material world, that a man started business with forty rupees and he has got four crores within ten years? Not only money, but also fame, respect. What do these kings and president or minister get respect?
Harikeśa: It takes them fifty years.
Prabhupāda: Incubation. So why don't you make such egg and put it into incubation?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We challenge them like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why you are talking nonsense that there is no life? Why you are depending on other life for giving you the egg? So this theory that life comes from chemical, so where it is true? Life is coming from the ... a life.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they say that life is simply a combination of chemicals.
Prabhupāda: So do it now. It is not difficult. You can see the egg's chemical, and just combine little chemicals and put it in the incubator. Let life come. Hm? What is your answer? The advocate speaks.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Science is based on experimentation. They will argue, "So how can we experiment with the theories that you are putting forward?"
Prabhupāda: Our theory or your theory?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your theory. Our theory.
Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?
Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man: You want to say that the astronomers are the mistaken. The astronomers have been mistaken to say all these things?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone commits mistake. Anyone who is conditioned, he must commit mistake. This is our position, that anyone who is not liberated, he must commit mistake. We take knowledge from liberated soul, not from the speculators. That is the difference.
Cyavana: They prove their inadequacy by changing their theories every twenty years.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: They've proved that their brains are weak.
Prabhupāda: No, they have no brain. If it is going to change, then what is their brain? (break) Still, there are so many big, big Vedic astronomers. They never change.
Cyavana: The astronomers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow the old principles.
Cyavana: Your Guru Mahārāja, he was an astronomer?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But you are a mad. He is drunk, and you are mad. Where is the difference? So, if we can go? (break) It was a statement that the earth is flat. Eh? Where it was stated the earth is flat?
Harikeśa: Oh. That was a theory of one of the contemporary Roman philosophers.
Prabhupāda: It is not in Bible.
Harikeśa: No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (Break) There is no information in the Bible at all about God. There's no information about God, simply that God is there, He's the creator, but nothing more.
Prabhupāda: That is in no scripture excepting the Vedic scripture. Clear conception of God is there in the Vedic. Definition of God, clear conception of God, everything is there.
Brahmānanda: Their idea is that God is so great that you cannot see Him.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot see because you are worthless. But those who are worthful, those who have attained liberation, they can see. Just like it is stated in the Bhāgavata, apasyat puruṣam purnam. Apasyat: "He saw, Vyāsadeva." Huh... Bhakti-yogena manasi samyak pranihite amale apasyat (SB 1.7.4). When your heart will be completely cleared of all this material conception, then you can see. So long you are materially contaminated, it is not possible. That's a fact. But bhakti-yogena samyak pranihite amale. When the heart is cleansed, that is the process. Therefore we are insisting that "Let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa." Ceto-darpana-marjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart will be cleansed. Then they will understand. All of a sudden, if you speak all this philosophy "Kṛṣṇa said," they will accept that "Why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man.
Prabhupāda: So God is so fool that He made all other planets vacant, and here for the rascals, there is... (laughter) Full of rascals.
Harikeśa: He had to put the dust somewhere. That's one of the theories, that all of the gas... In the beginning all the gas was circulating around and it solidified into different planets.
Prabhupāda: So why this planet is full of living entities? Why not others? What is that gas? What particular gas was circulating this planet? So take this gas, circulate over here, and get living entities there and live there. Why don't you do that, you scientists? Why you are disappointed? You are going to Venus. Just see. This rascaldom we have to believe.
Harikeśa: That's the next famous theory after the chunk theory.
Prabhupāda: It is simply waste of time even to talk with these fools.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The governments are giving billions and billions of dollars...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is dependent. Just like all of a sudden some idea come to us. That means we had contact with such idea. It is compared with... Just like there is a big pond. All of a sudden, you see, from within a bubble comes "phut!" There is no reason, but it comes. That means the thing is there within the pond, the situation. All of a sudden, without any time, it comes. They put this chance theory like this. But this is not chance. If... Because we are changing our life, so everything is recorded in the mind, dictaphone. So sometimes some idea which I had contact with many, many years ago, it comes. It comes. It is not chance. I had contact with such thing. All of a sudden, that idea comes. We shall go now.
Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...I am in the car, they offer me.
Woman: Oh, all African, small boys.
Prabhupāda: They understand this is good.
Prabhupāda: The simple method that everything belongs to God... The king is the representative of God, and he distributes the land amongst the kṣatriyas. Just like knighthood or in Mussulman times, subedat(?), and in Hindu times, the subordinate king. Just like Pāṇḍavas, they were the emperors, and under them there were many hundreds and thousands of kings, states. And everything belongs to God. So why fighting? Take it. It is God's property. We are all sons of God. But there is no culture, Aryan culture. They do not know how to live peacefully and cultivate spiritual culture. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśāya ye bahir-artha... (SB 7.5.31). And durāśāya, bad hopes or hopes against hope, they're trying to be happy, bahir-artha, by the external energy, material, most fallen ideas, all foolish theories without any knowledge. Material, that's all. Bahir artha, external energy. Otherwise there is no cause of anxiety or distress. There is enough land. They can produce enough food and live peacefully. They are talking of peace, but they do not know how peace can be achieved. They are hankering after peace, but they do not know how to achieve peace. And that formula is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: Accept God as the proprietor; then there will be peace. Something stolen from the proprietor by some thieves, and when they sit down to take their shares, there will be fight. The property is stolen, and they are sharing. Now, one will say, "Oh, I have worked so hard. You are giving me so little share?" And others will say, "No, no, we have worked equally." Somebody, "No..." In this way there will be fight.
Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative.
Jñāna: What about like Mahārāja Bhārata?
Prabhupāda: That was also. If Mahārāja Bhārata... It was punishment and reward also. Mahārāja Bhārata, although he became a deer, he remembered that he was such and such exalted position but "I became attached to the deer and I forgot my regular duties." Mahārāja Bhārata, he became so much attached to the deer, he forgot his regular duties. Therefore he was punished. But he remembered that "I was in such exalted position. On account of my attachment to the deer I have fallen." Therefore he rectified himself so that in his next life he became completely silent so that "I may not fall down," Jada Bhārata. This association, material association, is so dangerous, so he remained just like a dull madman. That's all. He was talking with nobody; he was not mixing with anybody. Whatever one would do, he did not protest, but his knowledge was full.
Prabhupāda: So this should be rectified.
Indian man (4): And their theory is that... I asked Pramukh Swami that "Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?" He said that, "We should avoid." But I said, "Well, okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies." He said, "We turn our face to one side." I said, "First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning." (laughter) "You will look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know."
Prabhupāda: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravāt para-dareṣu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette.
Prabhupāda: We are talking of this verse, that if this is the composition of the body, these things are available anywhere. Why don't you create life? Therefore he is no better than the dogs. He has no intelligence that "How this combination of blood, urine, stool, and bone, and muscle can create life?" They are thinking that a combination of matter can bring life force. That is the so-called scientists' theory. So these things are available in large quantity, so why don't you create life? Therefore go-kharaḥ. Their intelligence is not better than the cows and the asses from the very beginning. If they are not cows and asses, how they can think of that combination of these material things can bring in life? When a man dies, find out if there is scarcity of stool or scarcity of urine or scarcity of blood. Bring it and inject it. These rascals, they cannot do it, and still they are calculating urine examination, blood examination and this examination. (laughter) No, I am not saying. It is śāstra. (laughter) Take this dead man's body, and whatever urine and stool is there, examine, and then inject, and come him, let him back, come to life. Then I will understand that your examination of the stool, urine is perfect. This is common question. So long the soul was there, you are very expert to examine stool, urine and this and that. But when the soul is gone... Now the stool is there; urine is there. Why don't you examine and give life? This is our challenge.
Prabhupāda: Oh, many scientists say. I was known to one doctor Shaha in Allahabad. He said there are life. There is no question of disbelieving.
Brahmānanda: There's that article that Hayagrīva sent. The title of the article was, "New Discovery Creates Turmoil Amongst Scientists." Some scientists have now discovered some new sub-atomic particles. This has completely created turmoil amongst the scientists. All of their theories now are all...
Dr. Patel: Those are elementary particle, smaller than the element, present elementary particles.
Brahmānanda: Yes. And they found a lot of them, so now they don't know what to think.
Dr. Patel: Because they are trying to search it out by different matter. This ancient... I mean, the Āryans tried to search it out by different matter, by yoga-vijñāna.
Prabhupāda: Śruti, from the Vedas. Veda-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa That is pramāṇa. And nonsense, speculative, that is not pramāṇa. That is speculation.
Brahmānanda: They make some theory, and they become very complacent, that "Oh, now, this is it."
Prabhupāda: "Now we are advanced." And next year, again advanced. Next year again advanced.
Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyār vaibhava, tomāra bhajane badha. māyā means forgetfulness of God. This is māyā. māyā means the more you forget Kṛṣṇa, the more you are involved in māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So māyā's business is to cover you more and more as you forget Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā's business. So therefore, expansion of māyā's influence means forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Tomāra bhajane badha. They're all hindrances only to make spiritual progress and to understand God. So what is the net result? The net result is anitya saṁsāre, moha janmeiyā. We are already attached to this material world, which is temporary. By this expansion of māyā's influence we become more attached. Attachment is already there, but we become more and more attached. In this way, jība ke karaye gadha. So he is already ass; he becomes first-class ass. That's all. (laughter) Is that all right? Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has analyzed. "He is already an ass," sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Khara means ass. "But he becomes a first-class ass." So you'll find all these rascals, materialists, they are all first-class asses, that's all. Every day you find they are discovering new theory, new theory: "Atom, electron, this tron, that tron." Not the jīvātmā. They remain the same ass, first-class ass, scientific ass. They are finding out so many atoms, electrons, this tron, that tron, not that one ten-thousandth part of God. That they cannot find. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgo sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). They have not come to that point, that one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair is the jīva, living entity. They have not come to that, neither they'll be able to come to that, because they remain ass, more and more ass, first-class ass, O.K. ass and then going on, the quality of ass.
Prabhupāda: They are not scientists. They are rascals. I don't accept them as scientists. They, if they are putting forward theories every day, what kind of scientist? They are not scientist. Scientist means fixed up idea. It cannot be changed. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is scientist. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).
Harikeśa: Just consider how great they are. They've managed to isolate one little tiny electron and one little tiny positron, and then they send one one way, and they send one the other way, and then they meet and they smash.
Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit?
Harikeśa: But that's so difficult to do, you know. There are so many things get in the way.
Prabhupāda: So you can... Difficult to do, you can count ever... It is very difficult to count this sand. Can you count? It is very difficult. But you can waste your time in counting. (laughter) You are rascal; you can go on: "I shall count how many." But it is not possible. So that is rascaldom. Which is not possible, that we'll get. Now it is... Everyone knows there are some particles. Now you go on counting. Don't eat. Don't sleep. Go on counting. And śāstra says, ""Even if you are able to count this, you'll not be able to know God, even if you are able." This is not possible to count, but even if you become so expert that you can count one day, still it will be acintya tattva. That is... There is a verse that even one day you become the rolled sky... The sky is so big. You can roll it just like you roll up your bedding. And even if you can, all the atoms constituted, still you'll not be possible to know, understand God.
Yaśomatīnandana: Central Asia and inhabited in India. Then the Indian civilization sprang. Everybody thinks that India was not originally inhabited. It was all inhabited by the Dravidians, and then the Dravidians were pushed into the South and then Aryans dominated them. Whatever they learn in the schools. And because they have this theory, therefore they have to date all the śāstras, after, either after Christ or just a few centuries before Christ. (break) ...bhārata, they say, it must have been a small family feud and some poet's imagination made it a big war.
Prabhupāda: "May be. May not be." (laughter) We say, "may not be."
Brahmānanda: They say the Mahābhārata was written 1400 B.C., and that date correlates with dates of the Egyptian and Greek Empire.
Prabhupāda: No, no, so many dates have been quoted there. Which is correct? That is our question. So many dates they have discussed. And which one is correct? Either everyone is correct or everyone is incorrect. This is the... There cannot be many dates; that is not possible. Date must be one. So which one is correct? Who will answer this?
Prabhupāda: Others, they do not accept. So...
Yaśomatīnandana: Funny thing is that some of the historians, they say, "There was no war like Mahābhārata. It's all fictitious. There's nothing like Kurukṣetra." Some historians say that there is Kurukṣetra and there is evidences of war of Mahābhārata. But none of them completely agree with the scriptures. They all have their own fantastic theories, even those who say that...
Prabhupāda: So why shall I accept them?
Yaśomatīnandana: How can we prove the...
Prabhupāda: They cannot prove. Our proof is already there. They cannot prove. Why don't you take that point, that these rascals, they are contradictory to one another, so they cannot prove. Our proof is already there.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is what we should aim at. We should aim at "You cannot prove your..."
Prabhupāda: You cannot prove. You are contradictory. So why shall I accept you or he? We accept our own proof. That's all. First of all you agree amongst yourselves; then question us. You cannot agree. Why shall I believe you? One says that "He is wrong" and the other says "He is wrong." Now we say "You are both wrong. We reject you." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Just like America... (laughs) Americans have not even one per cent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali...
- bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
- tayāpahṛta-cetasām
- vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ
- samādhau na dhigacchati
- (BG 2.44)
(Hindi) Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bhārata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything, young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). (Hindi) ...politics, politics, politics. (Hindi) ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence, there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, rascal is meant, who has no authority. They are changing every day. They are changing. We don't change. These rascals are changing...
Dr. Patel: These fundamentals, sir, cannot be changed.
Prabhupāda: In nineteenth century one theory and twentieth century another theory and then another theory, another theory. This is going on.
Dr. Patel: The truth is not changed but...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they are changing. You see here... You have not seen that, our Svarūpa Dāmodara's book? He has given: simply changing, simply changing, these rascals. Changing means rascal. He does not know. "It is this. It is this." Another man, "No, no, it is not this. It is this." Therefore all of them rascals.
Dr. Patel: About this Kakubh Kapoor Cakra(?), our scientist, Mihila(?), has planned it, and according to the eclipse and sun and the moon eclipse come. That means his science was perfect. Otherwise it would not come at that particular day, time, and...
Prabhupāda: We... Our... Five thousand years ago Śukadeva Gosvāmī said that "As I have heard it, I am explaining." That means time immemorial, the thing is, same thing is coming. There is no change, not that after few days, "No, no. It was wrong. This is now right." Again somebody comes.
Dr. Patel: They are explaining the truth in their own way. That is the change of theory. But the truth is the same.
Prabhupāda: That is the truth of rascaldom, as soon as you change your position.
Dr. Patel: Theory is rascal, but the truth is never rascal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, truth you do not know. Therefore rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: They do not know how to explain. Truth is there, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyway, he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal, either you say this way or that way.
Dr. Patel: Truth is there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, truth is there, but they cannot present the truth rightly. That is rascaldom. Truth is there; that is certain. But they cannot present the truth in right way.
Dr. Patel: You mean they are groping in the dark.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascal. How things are happening—every ten years they are changing their theory. And that has been explained by, not by a layman like me. The Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he has explained. He has concluded Darwin's theory completely wrong. You have read that small booklet?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so-called scientist.
Dr. Patel: The great-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darśana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times.
Prabhupāda: There are some scientists...
Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom.
Indian man: But in Somanath... I went last year there when I was in Gujarat. The people, they don't believe, the people of Somanath, that he was killed by... like that. So these philosophers, simply for their name, they put some kind of theories so that people can, "Oh!" They can understand all this nonsense. (break)
Prabhupāda: These pastimes of Kṛṣṇa is to make the fools more fool. One who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man, Kṛṣṇa is playing this part to show them, "Yes, see. I am dying, this. You see."
Indian man: What He said? Avajānanti mā mūḍhāḥ.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). He'll remain mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). This is this pastime. Life after life, he shall remain a fool, rascal. So this Raja Gopalācārya and company, they'll remain in darkness life after life. For them this pastime is there. Avajānanti mā mūḍh mānusīm tanum āśritaḥ: "The rascals, they think of Me as ordinary human being." To such rascals, He is playing like: "Yes, you see I am ordinary human being. Just see. I am dying." This is... To keep them life after life in darkness. If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa, that He is dying-Acchā. "I have read it. I have seen. He has died." Then what is the use of saying, manuṣyāṇā sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3)? Out of many millions of persons one can understand Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of saying this? If it is so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa, what He is doing, what for He is doing, then everyone could understand Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of saying, manuṣyāṇā sahasreṣu? This requires intelligence.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: A change of government...
Prabhupāda: Change of government... Just like they say, a change of theories by the rascals. Change means rascal.
Harikeśa: But as soon as a government changes...
Prabhupāda: Anything change means it is the domain of rascals, pandemonium. Just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that, nāsyāṁ svatantratām arhati, women should not be given independence. Once said, that is fact. If you want to change, you suffer. That's all.
Hari-śauri: Any deviation from absolute law means immediately suffering.
Prabhupāda: Bas, immediately you have to suffer. (reads sign on building) DTS, what is this?
Haṁsadūta: German Democratic Republic. German diplomat.
Prabhupāda: German Embassy?
Tejas: This is going to be the Punjab Bhavan. For the Punjab state government.
Harikeśa: You're painting a pretty bleak picture.
Prabhupāda: Paint picture?
Harikeśa: The one you're painting of society, and the future.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because, no, He was questioned...
Dr. Patel: ...of the life. I talk of the maintenance of the body. To maintain the body Karl Marx put up this theory and, I mean, spoiled the whole thing—whole society and social set-up.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi to a passerby) Everyone is manufacturing; that is my point. Either Karl Marx or this one or that one, everyone is manufacturing. No one is taking the instruction. And our mission is "Take instruction of Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't manufacture like nonsense. What you'll manufacture? You are imperfect, your senses are imperfect...
Dr. Patel: We are manufacturing only for the body, but all these...
Prabhupāda: Nothing you can manufacture, even in the body. You are medical practitioner, hundreds of men you see, different types of body. Is it not? You cannot say that this is the standard." Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgasya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. The actual disease is the contamination of the guṇa.
Prabhupāda: Apratiṣṭham. There is no cause of this creation. Kāma-haitukam: it has taken place just like a man becomes lusty by seeing a woman and he begets a child. This is the cause, this rascal desire. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Kiṁ kāma-haitukam.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That is the Sāṅkhya philosophers. That is their theory. Prakṛti and puruṣa come in contact by chance, and there is creation. Not God created. Their theory is, the prakṛti and puruṣa, they come in contact by chance, and there is creation.
Dr. Patel: But sir, this Sāṅkhya philosophy also believes in Vedas. And Vedas says sa aik sata.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Sāṅkhya philosophy by the original Kapila, that is on the basis of Vedas. And this later Sāṅkhya philosophy...
Dr. Patel: Must be some another rascal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Now you have learned! (everyone laughs very loudly)
Dr. Patel: I am learning. (laughs raucously)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! There are two sāṅkhyas. Kapila. One Kapila is..., therefore he is described everywhere as devahūti-putra.
Dr. Patel: Kapila, the basis of the yoga.
Prabhupāda: No, yoga is Patanjali. Aṣṭāṅga. And yoga is also there in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: No, read it. Let us see.
Harikeśa: OK. "The fundamental premises of the theory of knowledge of Mock(?) and Averniu..., Avanarias(?) are frankly, simply and clearly expounded by them in their early philosophical works. To these works we shall now turn, postponing for later treatment an examination of the corrections and emendations subsequently made by these writers. 'The task of science,' Mock(?) wrote in 1872, 'can only be: 1. to determine the laws of connection of ideas, psychology; 2. to discover...' "
Prabhupāda: That is not science, ideas.
Harikeśa: He's saying to determine the laws of connection of ideas.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: He says he wants to determine the laws of connection of ideas.
Prabhupāda: But idea is also not fact. And what is other word?
Harikeśa: "The laws of connection of ideas."
Prabhupāda: If the idea is imperfect, then where is, what is the meaning of this law? That is also imperfect.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Harikeśa: First, there's the idea; the second, there's the real fact; and the third, there's the synthesis between the two.
Prabhupāda: They're all theories. The same experiment. To find out who is my father.
Harikeśa: All these guys are very dry.
Prabhupāda: It has no meaning.
Harikeśa: There's just talking. No value whatsoever. You can't even argue nicely with these men. They're just...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot argue with dogs.
Harikeśa: Waste of time. They'll simply keep on barking.
Prabhupāda: But we can place our, what is called, facts, as we learn from Kṛṣṇa, and try to defend it. That is argument.
Prabhupāda: This the..., this theory is going on perpetually, whether there is soul or not. But these people, these Russians, they are so ignorant, they will not allow anybody to believe that there is soul. Atheistic, stubborn atheistic. Although they cannot answer this question that there must be something superior which is moving this body. And they cannot answer the, what is that superior element.
Harikeśa: The unknown chemical.
Prabhupāda: Not unknown. It is unknown to you. But known to us. If it is unknown to you, you take, you know it from me. That is real knowledge. Why you persist that "It is unknown"? It should remain ever unknown? Why shall I take from anyone else? That's a fact. Either you answer what is that element which is missing so that the body is now dead. Simply your denial is obstinacy. That is dog's obstinacy. Then you are like a dog. You answer that: "This is the reason." Make experiment; prove it. Then you are right. So long you cannot do it, simply denying, that is dog's obstinacy. If you, as you say, there is no soul, it is chemical combination, so bring the chemicals and put him into life. Then your statement is right. You cannot do it and simply persist. This is doggish. You are calling a lump of matter your father, your child, your relative, and when the soul is gone, you say, "Oh, my father is gone." Why your father is gone? He's lying there on the bed. The same coat, pant, face, ear, eyes. Why do you say, "My father has gone"? What is this nonsense? So that chemical combination is your father? Bring your father again, chemical combination. Hmm? What is the answer? Some foolish, rubbish thing, presentation, will it be accepted as knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Just see. And the law. Just see. And law, law, nature is not giving him chance. And he's depending on chance theory. He's so unfortunate rascal that he does not get even the chance. So discuss these things in different ways and issue a small pamphlet in Russian language. Or any language. Doesn't matter.
Harikeśa: Oh, in Russian!
Prabhupāda: They're the greatest atheists.
Harikeśa: Oh, that would be.... A dialectic spiritualism pamphlet in Russian. That's big. Russian. (break)
Prabhupāda: The land is very nice. All flat, flat land. Hundreds of miles.
Indian: It is all tobacco.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Indian: All tobacco.
Prabhupāda: Just see. They're misusing.
| Page Title: | Theory (Conv. 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 23 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=131, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 131 |