Prabhupāda: They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education. Then?
Brahmānanda: "But in human society, even though one may be a low-grade member of the society, he can be trained up to be purified as a first-class brāhmaṇa. It only requires training. Therefore, manava-dharma means to impregnate a human being with spiritual knowledge. A human being must be educated spiritually. That means he must know that he is not this body. Kṛṣṇa teaches this idea in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā,
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
"This is the beginning of spiritual education, that every one of us is not this body. Unfortunately, the whole world is in darkness, and therefore every human is identifying with this body and thinking wrongly, 'I am Indian,' 'I'm American,' 'I am brāhmaṇa,' 'I am this,' 'I am that.' To drive away this misconception of life is actually manava-dharma. We must know that we are not this body but spirit soul, and as such, we are part and parcel of God and therefore qualitatively one with God, exactly like a small particle of gold is also gold as is the gold from the big gold mine. But quantitatively the particle of gold is not equal to the gold in the mine. This is very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā, and if we accept these principles of Bhagavad-gītā as manava-dharma, then the whole world will appreciate. And this is being done by our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
"Point Five: Elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, which are useful and wholesome but which . . . But, are being discarded in practice, and those which may be considered to be unsuitable in the present times. Number Five: Regarding elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti. . ."
Prabhupāda: This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time . . . (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education; therefore we have to adapt according to them. No. The pakkā moralist, he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view. Then?
Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya saṁsṛti."
Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya saṁsṛti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya saṁsṛti? Then?
Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood, and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society."
Governor: Coordination.
Prabhupāda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that "Because I am head, brāhmaṇa, oh, here is a śūdra. Oh, don't see his face." Why? Śūdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required.
Governor: It is an harmonious coordination.
Prabhupāda: Yes, harmonious coordination. But the śūdras were hated like anything, and they became Muhammadans. And there was no reacceptance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature, we understand that if the Musselman will take little water from the badna(?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Muhammadan. In this way all these Indians, they became Muhammadan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Muhammadan, why they do not claim? Kṛṣṇa and the śāstra, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa . . . (BG 9.32). This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on.