Prabhupāda: Yes. If you . . . that will be discussed. This is the point. This is being discussed. It is not the . . . it is not the question of atheism. Your point is, "What is the use of going to the church?" But the use is that if he goes to the church, if he actually hears about, I mean to say, glorious life, to become devotee, to understand God, then the utilization of going to the church is all right. But if he goes with that spirit that "I shall go to the church and my sinful activities will be counteracted by giving some bribe and going to the church, then it is (not?) very good . . ." But his motive is different. Churchgoing is not for that purpose. That is a facility.
Just like we are preaching, "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and," ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), "your sinful activities will be counteracted. Kṛṣṇa says that 'You just surrender unto Me and I shall give you protection from the sinful acts.' " So if I think, "It is very good. Then I shall go to Kṛṣṇa. I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and He will protect me from sinful reaction. So it is a great opportunity. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and commit all sinful activities, Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." That will create certainly atheism: "What is this bogus thing?"
But that does not mean . . . so you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa takes charge of your past sinful activities. But that does not mean that "I shall remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, at the same time I shall go on committing sin." This . . . for this facility, if anyone takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is most sinful that, "I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness because whatever sinful activities I shall do, it will be counteracted by Kṛṣṇa." So that will create certainly atheism, that "What is this bogus talk?" Do you follow? Yes. But that is not meant for.
Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Jagāi-Mādhāi on the condition that they will not commit any more sinful activities. So whatever they have committed, that is excused. Just like I am also accepting. Not that on the condition that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and whatever you do, it will be counteracted. We are not making that condition. We are making condition that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness; whatever sinful activities you have done, that will be squared up. But you don't do any more. Don't have illicit sex, don't drink, don't do this, don't do this.
So you must take it in that . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever you have done, that is no disqualification. That will be squared up. But not that on the strength of your Kṛṣṇa consciousness you'll do again. So these people are misunderstanding that, "Church is giving me some facility that, 'All right, whatever you have committed, that you confess. It is excused.' " But if the Church and the people make a business that "All right, throughout the whole week let me commit all kinds of sins, and on Sunday it will be all counteracted . . ." Yes?
Revatīnandana: There's one example I just remembered from the Christian Gospel. Jesus was accustomed to heal diseased people. And one time they brought a leper or somebody with a very bad disease before him. Or he was blind or something. And they asked him, "Can you heal this man?" And instead of saying: "Be free from leprosy," he said: "Your sins are forgiven." And they said: "Oh, what is this? No, we don't want you to forgive his sins. We want you to cure his disease." Jesus said: "What is the difference? Your sins are forgiven you." And when he said that, the man's disease was healed, and then he said: "Now go away and sin no more."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That was a reference about karma. Those who do not understand . . . it was a lesson on karma. They don't understand that.
Prabhupāda: So there is no value of this question of the atheist. They do not know what is the meaning of going to the church or going to the temple or church or spiritual master. That is a foolish question. The church does not allow. But if the church does not disclose this fact, that "Oh, I see every week you come. What is this, nonsense?" But the priest, they get some money and they want to continue their church business to get some money. So this is going on, cheating and cheated. Therefore the society has become the full of cheaters and cheated.
So the cheating cheaters are not encouraged. If in the church or if anywhere, in the court, they are all full of cheaters and cheated, then what can be done? But either the court or the church is not meant for that purpose, that they will excuse the sinners every week without questioning and without giving him full, nice instruction that "You cannot do this." But if they say like that, then no more . . . nobody will come. Their income will be lost. So therefore they are cheated, and those people who are thinking that "I have gone to church and my priest has excused me. I have confessed," this is cheating. That's all. Actually the purpose is different.
Revatīnandana: The priests are all driving Lincoln Continentals . . . (indistinct) . . . all the priests drive very expensive automobiles. They're all dressed very nicely, and they have very big cars, Catholic priests. They get so much money for forgiving sins.
Prabhupāda: They get money?
Revatīnandana: Yes, in Europe they used to sell indulgences. For a certain amount of money you get a certain indulgence and your . . .
Prabhupāda: Here also. The priests allow. The guru allow. The professional guru . . . his disciple will come: "Sir, doctor has advised me to take fish. Without taking fish my eyesight will be lost. He has advised. So what to do? You have asked me not to take fish. You said." "Oh, all right, I give you permission." He gives his permission. This is going on. "I give you per . . ." Because the guru sees that, "If I say no, this rich disciple will be lost. So better let him do whatever he likes. I get my fees. That's all." This is going on.