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That is the proof (Conversations 1968 - 1975)

Expressions researched:
"That is a scientific proof" |"That is the practical proof" |"That is the tangible proof" |"That is, there is proof" |"that is proof" |"that is the proof" |"this is also another proof" |"this is proof" |"this is the genuine proof" |"this is the proof"

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: It is the easiest method conceivable because the method is so easy that we simply ask people to come and chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. And it is actually experienced that in this country, all my disciples, they are neither Indian, nor Hindu, nor they know the Sanskrit words, everything is unknown to them, but still, they are taking so seriously. That is the proof how it is easier, that it can be spread all over the world.

Interviewer: I mean, just is Kṛṣṇa consciousness more readily accepted by the Far Eastern peoples? That is does their way of life make the acceptance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness any more easy than here in America? For instance, Americans are constantly rushing around and Europeans somewhat less. But they find it more difficult to be tranquil and peaceful than the Eastern peoples. For this reason, might it not be harder for Western peoples to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: In India, due to her long subjugation by the foreigners, practically the so-called educated persons, they have lost their original culture. Rather, those who are not so-called educated, following the traditional rules and regulations, they are more Kṛṣṇa conscious. And the educated circle, they are thinking that this religious temperament is the cause of India's economic fall-down. But actually, that is not the fact. So not only India, in other countries also they are trying to imitate the economic situation or economic development of other countries, especially of America, but they do not find that in America, although the boys and girls, the younger generation, they are born of rich family, rich nation, they are still confused, and they are also hankering after something better. So the policy followed by India now, that is, to imitate the Western way of life, is not very happy mood. This means they have lost their original culture. And so far Western countries are concerned, I think they have sufficient arrangement for material comforts.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Discussion with Guests -- December 23, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: No! First of all prove it that it is not cotton.

Guest (3): No, no. One moment. You claim that it is cotton, therefore the burden of the proof lies on you inasmuch as you have to prove...

Prabhupāda: Everyone will say it is cotton. Everyone will say it is cotton. That is proof. Everyone will accept this is cotton, made of cotton. Who will say this is not made of cotton? But if I give you a lump of cotton instead of shirt will you accept it?

Guest (3): I apologize. I don't mean to argue with you. I'm just trying to...

Prabhupāda: No, why not?

Guest (1): You speak of God and matter and as matter being the thing which keeps us from seeing God. It seems to me it's something like pride and delusions, myself, and something like this, and ideas that I have.

Prabhupāda: You may have ideas, but I don't agree with your idea. If... I say that anything take it material or spiritual they are different energy of God. Matter is not different from God as it is energy of God, but still matter is not God.

Guest (1): Yes.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? This man... It is to be very carefully tackled. This king is going to die very soon. And as soon as the king dies, the queen's position is very precarious, almost finished. So if she becomes our president, she'll continue to keep her honor and prestige. That's a fact. She's a good lady. We have no objection to make her the president of the local center. And she is American. She will be able to tackle these American boys and girls with motherly affection. And we shall keep her always in good respect so that throughout her life she shall be honored all over as she was, as she was honored with her husband. This is a fact. So you have to convince her. And I think if the other ladies who are..., her daughter-in-law and granddaughters, like that... Because her son is dead. He was the king. This old man being invalid, his son was king. And I think that middle-aged woman was there. You have marked this? She might be her daughter-in-law and the young girls might be grandchildren. One of them, one of the daughters, girl, was very beautiful. So it appears that she comes from the royal family. Rāja-kanyā King's daughters are very beautiful. That is fabulous in India, king's daughter, rāja-kanyā. In India if anybody gets a good dowry and a beautiful wife it is said, arddhe rajatva eka rāja-kanyā(?) Actually we have seen in..., when Devaki was married to Vasudeva, how much dowry. Can anyone imagine now? So many thousands of horses, chariots, elephants, maidservants, all decorated with gold ornaments. One cannot imagine even at the present moment. Therefore they talk of "legends." But actually such dowries were given when a king's daughter was married. Not only royal family, even in ordinary family still, those who are rich, they spend lots of money to be married, either son's marriage or daughter's. When one spends lots of money during the marriage of one's daughter and son he is considered to be really rich man. That is the proof that he is rich man. So we can begin. He cannot rise, this, what is called, Muktananada? That's all right. Where he is?

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... The author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha (CC Adi 5.205). He's not making a show, he's feeling like that, that "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, I am not engaged." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I would have been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa I would have died long ago. I am living; that is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." That is the vision of the best devotee. He's so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he sees, "Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God." That is best devotee.

Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody's liberation?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee.

Bob: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: Not imitate the best devotee.

Bob: Not, what is that word?

Prabhupāda: Imitate.

Devotees: Imitate, imitate.

Bob: Oh, ācchā, ācchā, I see. Imitate. (pause) (break)

Śyāmasundara: ...you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that... Couldn't sometimes disease be that, due to that? Caused by that?

Room Conversation -- March 12, 1972, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Malaysia.

Yamunā: Especially in Malaysia, so many.

Prabhupāda: Malaysia, I speak of Malaysia, Penang is in Malaysia. Dr. Chandra (indistinct).

Guru dāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So they worship Viṣṇu. And Buddha...Buddha-dharma is an offshoot of the Vedic religion. That is the proof, they worship Viṣṇu. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā.

Guru dāsa: But to this man, he says that's the proof that Vaiṣṇava is an offshoot of Buddhism, that Viṣṇu is in the Buddhist temple. He can say that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru dāsa: This Caitanya who has written this book can say that since Viṣṇu is in the Buddhist temple that this proves that Viṣṇu is an offshoot of Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he can say like that. But the offshoot he cannot say. Viṣṇu is long, long ago mentioned, Buddha is later. Buddha can be from Viṣṇu, but Viṣṇu cannot be from Buddha.

Guru dāsa: So how do they speak of that chronologically? They don't accept that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as five thousand years old?

Dr. Kapoor: No. (break) This bundle...

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the father of the saṅkīrtana movement. Saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. This is the statement in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This Lord, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, is worshiped by saṅkīrtana yajña, and those who are intelligent, sumedhasaḥ, sharp brain, they worship this Lord by saṅkīrtana. This is the statement in the Bhāgavata. And, therefore, we worship Him with saṅkīrtana. This picture, He is being worshiped by saṅkīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti (SB 11.5.32). And they are all big men Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, Śrīvāsa, and others, followers. That is the proof. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam, He is fair complexioned, but He is always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam iti, He is describing the science of Kṛṣṇa. These are the statement, and He is doing exactly the same thing. His accepting sannyāsa order is also mentioned in the śāstra. So everything we have to accept through three channels: sādhu, śāstra, guru. Saintly person, they you should accept; guru you should accept; and it must be mentioned in the śāstra. Guru cannot manufacture something. He must quote from the śāstra and then tell to his disciple. So disciple, as soon as he receives a message from guru corroborated by the śāstra, then he should take it as fact. This is the way. Why there should be any more doubt? What is your argument?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no argument, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's just the conditioning of the mind, the trouble of the mind.

Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. Manodhara. Manodhara means those who are conditioned by the mind, their statement is not accepted according to our philosophy. Because he has no value.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have to be cured.

Room Conversation with Kenneth Keating, U.S. Ambassador to India -- October 14, 1972, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: ...body, and the body is considered as the dress, and the person who is dressed, that is within.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Just like this child, this is a dress. Now, after some days this dress will be changed to another dress. After some time another dress, another dress. This body is dress, we should understand, but the person who is putting on the dress... Just like I remember my childhood state, dress and condition, my youthful condition. So many things I remember. So although the body has changed—either you say it has grown or changed—I am the same. Therefore conclusion should be that after giving up this dress, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), I must have another body. This is the proof of immortality of the soul and transmigration from one body to another. Now, there are 8,400,000's of different dresses. There are 900,000 dresses within the water, then plants and trees, then insects, then birds. This is evolution of different dresses. The spirit soul is passing through different dresses.

Ambassador Keating: Both the human and the animals?

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: They always say they're right on the verge.

Prabhupāda: That is also the future, in a different way. You have to accept that you do not know still what is the truth. You are expecting in future. That, that is the proof that your knowledge is imperfect. Why future?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because their present knowledge cannot...

Prabhupāda: It is, it is something like, giving post-dated check. I pay you one lakh of rupees, post-dated. Although I have no money,... What is the value of that check? Will anybody accept that check? "Oh, I have received the money." That is foolishness. Why future? You are talking of future, and you are talking of perfectness at present. What is this nonsense? You are claiming that your science is perfect, and, at the same time, when practical example wanted, you say; "I shall do it." The same example. I am saying I am millions, owner of millions of dollars. And you ask me: "Give me some payment." "Yes, I give you post-dated check." Will you accept? At present, if you give me five dollar, I see something tangible. And you're talking of big, big word, but you'll pay me in the future. So is it very sanguine proposal? And I am to accept it? So what kind of intelligent man I am also? You cannot produce even a grass by biological chemistry. You cannot do anything. Still you are claiming: "It is produced of chemistry, biology." What is this nonsense? Nobody questions?

Karandhara: Even it's produced by chemistry, there's laws...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They have got personality, all the living entities coming out, the microbes. They have got their personality. If they're moving in this way, you stop. They'll move in this way.

"There is some block. Let me go this side." So there is personality.

Karandhara: But in the dead body, there's no personality.

Prabhupāda: That means that individual person has left. That is the proof, that is the proof of individual soul. Just like there are so many plants of the same species. One is dead. That individual plant is dead, but other species are living. It is not extinct. How can you say the species is extinct? How you can say? Darwin's forefather might be extinct. But the monkeys are there. What is the time?

Brahmānanda: Six-thirty.

Karandhara: Six thirty-five.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. We can walk little more.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the same living body, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are innumerable small living entities. Like the cells themselves. They are living also.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is the first lesson. You do not understand? You are a child, now you're a grown up boy. Where is your childhood? Where is that body? Ha? The dead body does not exist but you are existing. That means you're eternal. Body has changed, but you have not changed. Circumstances have changed, but you have not changed. This is the proof of (indistinct). What do you want more? You may remember that I did yesterday these things, today I remember yesterday's activities, but your body of yesterday is not this body. Do you admit or not? As a scientist, the body has changed already. He cannot say that 1973, twelfth May yesterday. He cannot say. It is already changed. But you remember everything of yesterday. That is eternity. The body has changed, but you remember everything. Therefore you are eternal, body's not eternal. This is the proof. Simple proof, even a child can understand. But they'll not understand. That is the difficulty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want some more.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: What is that more? It is a simple fact. Just like yesterday, day before yesterday, day before that we saw that stool. We therefore criticize. You are seeing for the last three days the stool, it is not cleansed. But day before yesterday's body, yesterday's body is not this body. And my body has changed, but I remember. Therefore I'm eternal. This is the proof. Eternity means I'm so... my body's changing, but I'm not changing. Just like, I'm old man. I sometimes think, "Oh, I was jumping like this and now I cannot jump." So my body has changed. But I want to jump. But I cannot do it. So that jumping propensity is my eternal propensity. But due to this body, I cannot do it. This is (indistinct).

Karandhara: They would say that, according to their observations, that nature of eternity only lasts one body.

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness because, as this body... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As this body's changing in my experience, similarly, there's another change.

Karandhara: Well, actually, they're able to observe this change, but they can't observe that change.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot observe, your rascal eyes are so imperfect, you cannot observe so many things. That does not mean science. Why don't you admit your imperfectional senses? You first of all admit the imperfectional senses. You cannot see. You cannot experience. That, does it mean that is science? So many dogs they cannot understand what is the law of nature. Does it mean that nature does not exist? Why do you think your sense are perfect? First of all, admit that you're the most imperfect.

Karandhara: They'll admit that, but they say the way of becoming perfect is through objective information and experience.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: You don't say there is no proof.

Krishna Tiwari: ...in science, you can do the same thing in your place.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof.

Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it?

Prabhupāda: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference.

Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it?

Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge...

Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Devotee (1): No. The process is given. If, he, he...

Prabhupāda: Just... We, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature.

Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We do not know anything. We are to be considered all fools and rascals. That is our position. As soon as we come to this material world, accept a material body, we are all fools and rascals.

Mr. Wadell: Do you accept the whole of the material world? Do you think there are some things in it which are wrong?

Prabhupāda: Just like as soon as you come to the prison house, you are all criminals. You may be very intelligent, but because you are in the prison house, you are criminal. Because you are in the prison house, that is the proof that you are a criminal. You may be very intelligent man.

Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I'm not claiming... I haven't any claim to goodness. You must understand that.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, any living entity, any living entity who is originally part and parcel of God, God is all-good, therefore the part and parcel of God is also all-good. But as soon as comes to the material world, he (break) As exactly like the same, that as soon as one is put into the prison wall, within, he is a criminal. Now he has to undergo the criminal laws. Similarly, because we have come to this material world, we have to undergo the material tribulations. We cannot avoid.

Mr. Wadell: Well this is a very long... We are now on a topic on which I should have to require or ask, if I put it more politely, much more time than I have. Now, I am a person with responsibility to my boys. I must go now and say our prayers in the Christian way, which...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body.

Guest (5): It has nothing to do with the human...?

Prabhupāda: No, dream... Just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara. They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara, but they do not have any education about this dehāntara.

Guest (5): (Sanskrit:) Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara-gataṁ, paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā, yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam, tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye.(?)

Prabhupāda: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think: "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. If you want to remain within this planetary system,... yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām. "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: It is not belief, it is fact.

Guest (2): Yes, but if you say fact, how do you prove?

Prabhupāda: This is proof, Kṛṣṇa says.

Guest (2): It has been said by Kṛṣṇa. Yes, but...,

Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). This material, eight kinds of materials—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego. Do you think so? That there is another body made of mind, intelligence and ego?

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: That is illusion. We are attached to them.

Dr. Hauser: Yes, we are attached to them also because they have power over us. They can persecute us and they can... So it's very...

Prabhupāda: No, the greater power is Kṛṣṇa. If you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a five years old boy. He took shelter of Kṛṣṇa and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise his boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pape... (BG 18.66). "I give you protection." So people have no faith although He's God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Kṛṣṇa, what this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom. That is explained in the previous verse. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo, jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham (SB 1.5.10). Read that, previous to this verse.

Śrutakīrti: (reads verse, SB 1.5.10)

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Śrutakīrti: (reads translation)

Morning Walk -- December 2, 1973, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: The soul has already left. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...the soul is individual. As I told yesterday that dead body has got the ingredients to produce life. But that the man who has left his body, you cannot produce him. That is the proof of individuality. That is the proof of individuality. Huh?

Bali Mardana: I was saying that they transplant the heart... After the first man, his soul has already gone, then they take his heart and put it into the other man, who has a weak heart. So all it means is that the soul is going from one heart to another heart, not that the soul, that they are taking the soul with it when they put the heart in.

Prabhupāda: He is destined to live in that body for a certain years. So you may change whatever you like.

Karandhara: The heart is just an instrument in the machine.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a place.

Bali Mardana: Now it's very clear. (break)

Prabhupāda: Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). There is superior overlooking. That is Kṛṣṇa, anumantā, upadraṣṭā. Upadraṣṭā anumantā.

Karandhara: One man, Dr. Wyberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying, "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much...

Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, therefore they are fools. That is a fact. Any child can understand that... And even they're less than a child. If I say there is something, therefore there is consciousness, any boy can understand. But they cannot understand. Less than a boy.

Karandhara: They say there's no proof that that something...

Prabhupāda: That is the proof. That is the proof.

Devotee (2): Yes, their own law of conservation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: No, I'm talking about the individuality...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Individuality... There are so many proofs, there are so many proofs, how you can say it is not?

Devotee (2): By their own laws.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. It is different subject. That something is missing within the body, therefore it is dead. So what is your answer? We say something is missing. We shall decide what is that something later on. That something is missing. If you suggest that something is chemical combination, then you do it. Therefore do not know. I say something is missing. If you know, then you replace that something, then you'll know.

Karandhara: What do we say that something is?

Prabhupāda: No... That everyone, any layman can understand, that this dead body is unconscious because something is missing. Any layman can understand. If you know that, then you replace it. I don't say I know, but I say something is missing.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.

Morning Walk -- December 7, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I once was distributing some of your literature to a library, and the librarian said, "If these are five thousand years old, where is the proof of this? Do we have the copies that were written down five thousand years ago?"

Prabhupāda: This is the proof. This is the proof. You see. But if you close your eyes... Just like if somebody says, "Now there is sunrise, light." And if he is in darkness, he says, "Where is the proof there is light?" So, "You please come out and see." So you read it and there will be proof.

Karandhara: Even if you don't accept it's five thousand years old, that doesn't diminish the value of the books.

Prabhupāda: Simply read it. There is no question of five thousand, ten thousand, old or new. Just see what is the knowledge there. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām (SB 1.7.6). Because they are fools, for them this literature is made. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. (break) ...accept Bhāgavata, then their Darwin's theory is finished. Darwin's theory is finished.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they accept that there is a spirit soul, then Darwin's theory is also finished.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spirit soul, they don't like to accept it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Prajāpati: The theologians are saying that if we say man is simply soul, he is not his body, we are not accepting the whole man. The whole man means soul and body together.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say, body, same...

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, no, God, not "come from." By experience you are speaking that things are... Just like the explosion. Explosion was there because God was there. Therefore God is there. The explosion cannot take place by chance, all of a sudden. There was somebody, some brain, and that brain is God. Because you say all of a sudden there was explosion, therefore that is the proof of existence of God. Is it clear or not?

Girirāja: Yes.

Devotee: Something can't come from nothing.

Prabhupāda: No. We have no such experience. How we accept this nonsense statement? We have no such experience. I can accept something that is going on. Can you show me? So we show. You study with your experience. Where is your experience that something comes all of a sudden? There is no such thing. So how can I accept your statement? Because you say, "There was explosion," that means there is God. That means there is God. So what is your argument? You say that "Why you bring God?" I bring God because you say, "There was explosion."

Girirāja: No, you're saying that "Something cannot come from nothing."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: So therefore this explosion came from God. But then where did God come from?

Prabhupāda: That is God. God is always existing. Not "come from." That is God. Nityo nityānām. You are also existing. This knowledge, they are lacking. Just like I am, you are, we are eternal. We are eternal. We are changing body. Because they do not believe or do not try to understand that I am not this body, therefore the whole mistake is there.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 5, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is cheating, it is fact.

Bali Mardana: But what would convince them of that? What qualities?

Prabhupāda: Just see example, our. We are chanting, dancing, and eating nicely. What you are doing? You are simply talking nonsense. There is no peace in your life. And see our devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the proof, practical proof.

Yaśodānandana: Practical proof that they cannot get purified.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Yaśodānandana: Even though they have big posts...

Prabhupāda: No, either purify or... You come with us and you will be purified. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo saṅge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā cāi. We don't want anything from you. You, I shall give you eating. I shall give you everything. You simply come with me and chant. This is our propaganda. We don't say that "You do this, do that." We don't do anything. Simply come with us and chant.

Bali Mardana: Just like the Catholic church, in different places around the world they feed the people.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nations." All nations, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? (laughter) So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace. They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong?

Hṛdayānanda: Right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So study this institution.

Viṣṇujana: Thirty years now.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, humbug program, and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁha-deva. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). (break) ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. (break) ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a śūdra how to work like this, you have become a śūdra. You are not śūdras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a śūdra how to work like a śūdra. (break) ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?

Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Not arthārthī. Jñānī. No, I must give the proper position. Jñānī...

Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. (laughter) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the maṅgala-ārati? This is the proof.

Dr. Patel: That is, we are, we are brought up like that from our...

Prabhupāda: That is, that means you are pious.

Guest (3): You are pious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Śucīnāṁ sukṛtāṁ gṛhe.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): Yoga-bhraṣṭa...

Dr. Patel: Yoga-bhraṣṭa... (break)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mākhanalāl: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so-called professor, Baba Ramdas. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him.

Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, actually, He had sixteen thousand wives when He was in Dvaraka, but these rascals say, "Rural boy." "Rural boy" means when He was in Vṛndāvana. So he does not know even the history, and he is trying to write about Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. And that is the proof. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God, because you cannot maintain even one wife at the present moment. So He maintained sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God. That is the proof. But they will not take that side. They will take in other way, "Oh, this is all stories and fictitious." That's all. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). They do not know. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and they try to write upon Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa was an avatāra. Therefore I am also avatāra." These things are not very good.

Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely."

Prabhupāda: That is avatāra. So nobody can compare. In the Vedic literature it is said, na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. Nobody can be equal to Him. Sama, sama means equal. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate: "Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him." That is Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as one claims that "I am also Kṛṣṇa," he is a bogus immediately.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further?

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologists, they read. Because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cid. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, he has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Kṛṣṇa.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṇa's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion.

Italian Man (1): In our heart.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Oh, therefore I am a better Christian, better than you. Love... Therefore the Bhāgavata is perfect. Bhāgavata says that... Bhagavad-gītā says... Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are obeying Kṛṣṇa. We offer patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ. And we eat the remains of the foodstuff. Therefore we love. That is the proof. But you are not loving Jesus Christ because you are disobeying the order.

Pañcadraviḍa: How disobeying if the person says, "I am vegetarian. I do not kill. I am a Christian, but I am vegetarian, I do not kill animals?"

Prabhupāda: Then you are all right. But they... Who put forward the argument that "You are also killing vegetable?" Then how can kill vegetable?

Nitai: In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa... Just as you quoted.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that we must eat something. And vegetables also have got life. The nature's way is that one living entity is eating another living entity. It may be animal or it may be vegetable. The question is the obedience to the order of God. So when Jesus Christ says that "Thou shalt not kill," it means bigger animals. Killing is applied, from dictionary, if I kill a man, if I kill an animal, then this word is used. So he meant like that. And that is very reasonable. Because I am eating another living entity, that does not I can eat another man. So therefore Kṛṣṇa has specifically mentioned, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). After all, we have to eat. And if you take that all killing is the same, even by ordinary law, if I kill one tree, and if I kill one man, does it mean it is of the same degree? Even taking killing of plant, so there are comparative. But it is also necessity that we must eat something. So therefore here, perfect thing in the Bhagavad-gītā, that He says that "You offer Me." "Offer Me" means "After My eating, you shall eat." Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Even by killing vegetable, you are also as sinful as killing animal, but because we offer to Kṛṣṇa, therefore we are not sinful. Kṛṣṇa wants it. Just like Kṛṣṇa wanted Arjuna to fight and kill the other party. Therefore Arjuna is not infected with the sin. So here Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Give me this foodstuff," and Kṛṣṇa knows that I will eat the remnants of the foodstuff. So I am not responsible. We have no very much study of the Muslim, but instead of criticizing others, better we shall preach our own cult. But if there is occasion when somebody attacks, then we should be prepared. But our positive business should be to inform people what is the nature of God, as they are stated in Bhagavad-gītā and in Bhāgavatam.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good program, to produce your own necessities of life. That is good idea. But he could not turn the people, because they are godless. Godless man cannot have any good qualification. I requested him to become God conscious and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He thought it ludicrous. Yes. He was such a godless man.

Yogeśvara: All Indians worship Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: Then how he was killed? That is the proof. Otherwise, how was he killed?

Yogeśvara: Every place we go, we see Indian's homes, pictures of Gandhi on their tables.

Prabhupāda: You, you have not visited everyone's house here. The three, four house you have visited. That's all.

Bhagavān: You haven't even been to India. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Don't talk all this nonsense.

Bhagavān: We can keep horses? We can use horses?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is kṣatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The śūdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The śūdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is śūdra mentality.

Bhagavān: So they have to be kept employed.

Morning Walk -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: Oh. So these Germans were tribe people, uncivilized?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, before Christianity, Europe was completely uncivilized.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Therefore the order is "Thou shalt not kill." Simply their business was killing. Uncivilized persons, they kill animals and eat. So due to past habit they could not forget this killing business. This is the proof that this system of religion was preached among the crude people, not civilized. So why they introduced this beer?

Haṁsadūta: It was a kind of refreshment.

Prabhupāda: But before that, they were not drinking.

Haṁsadūta: There may have been something like wine. The monks also used to make wine.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they make wine. Uncivilized men, they know how to make wine. In India they do so by rice boiling and keep it for some days. It becomes wine, fermented. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...used to say that "I was drinking beer in barrels." He said. Forty years ago he said me like that. Here I don't see them, but Hamburg I have seen, yes, passing urine on the roadside. There are so many urine coming from the wall. 'Cause the more you drink beer, you will pass urine more. The German language is trinken, trinking. Drinking means trinking. Yes, I have seen it. Trinking or trinken?

Haṁsadūta: Trinken.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...students, they are advancing for the unflinching faith on guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the secret. (break) ...these devotees, how nice they are. They do not appreciate?

Room Conversations -- September 11, 1974, Vrndavana:

Yamunacarya, he was a great king. So his.... As king, his life was sex. But when he became a devotee, he admits, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde: "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne, "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ, "I taste that (indistinct)," suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ, (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct). Otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting noise)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is beginning. This is the proof, Yamunacarya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne. So not actually doing, simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting noise). What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata, hear Bhāgavata, rasa-līlā. They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā, then that lusty desires will be finished.

vikrīḍitaṁ idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ vraja-vadhūbhir
śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ
bhaktiṁ parāṁ (bhagavati) pratilabhya kāmaṁ
hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source (indistinct), then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ. Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same thing. They publish book. One rascal, Bhaṭṭācārya(?), has published. In Paris we saw.

Devotee (2): The Myth of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nations.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Professor: That means that you are conscious of your existence even on the suppression of consciousness.

Prabhupāda: I am not only conscious, but the consciousness depends on me. Because I am there, therefore consciousness... So I am nitya. This is the proof of nitya, that many changes have taken place, but the changes, the phenomenal changes, they have gone out. They are no more existing. Therefore they are not nitya. Just like dream. At night I saw one dream, but the dream is no more existing, but I remember that last night I saw the dream. Therefore I am nitya. And the dream is anitya. The dream is anitya. Similarly, this phenomenal world, when I am not sleeping, but I am so-called awakened, so I am seeing. I am seeing you, I am seeing the table, this book, you see, but... (aside:) Don't... But when I am asleep I forget all these things. I forget. I am in a different world. I am seeing different things. So this is also dream, and the dream at night, that is also dream. But I, the seer of this dream and that dream, I am the eternal.

Professor: The thing is not to make dependent on the conscious of any individual the existence of thing.

Prabhupāda: Existence of thing... I say that at night, when I am dreaming, I do not see existence of these things. And at this time, in daytime, when I am seeing these things, I do not see the existence of the dream. So the conclusion should be both these things I see in daytime and I see at night, they have no existence. They are phenomenal. But I am the seer; I am eternal. I am existing. This is the proof. Because at night I am seeing and daytime I am seeing, so therefore I am eternal. But the phenomenal manifestation, they are temporary. We don't say it is false. Temporary. The Māyāvādī philo... Śaṅkara said it is false. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Mithyā means false. We don't say false. We don't say that this book is false. It has got reality, but temporary. This book has come into form at a certain date, and it will exist for certain days, and when it will be worn out or old, there will be no existence. Therefore the formation of this book is temporary. But I am the reader of the book; I am eternal. So two things are there, temporary and eternal. The temporary existence, somebody says, "False," but we say, "It is not false; it is temporary." But there is an eternal existence. Just like I am eternal. That is... We have to learn from śabda, vibration. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That eternal thing is existing, it will continue to exist. Even after the destruction of this temporary body, it will continue to exist.

Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Yes, revealed.

Guest (1): ...or is...? Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Revealed. It is revealed. Hm? Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā the vibration is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Now, you practically realize it: "Yes, what is said is correct." That is direct perception. First of all, you receive the message, and then apply your logic and see that it is fact. Therefore it is perfect. When you receive the knowledge and when you directly apply it to your perception, when you see it is correct, that is the proof that the message which you received, that is correct.

Professor: Very difficult to have proofs of that, where the eternality of your own ātman for instance, things of that...

Prabhupāda: That is called realization. Yes. First of all you receive the sound, then apply your instruments, and when you find it, it is correct—that is the realization. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. That's all. We are not perfect. But the knowledge we are getting, that is perfect. So according to that perfect direction, if we mold our life, then we are successful. Otherwise you go on experimenting, speculating. Ciraṁ vicinvan. Ciram, you understand, "perpetually," vicinvan, "thinking." Ciraṁ vicinvan.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Indian man: No, but then our attention is towards that thing.

Prabhupāda: No, there no attention. You have failed. That is the proof that you had no attention.

Indian man: Yes, but then God should help us to keep us...

Prabhupāda: God is always helping, but if you do not accept it... God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "You give up all other engagement and take My shelter," but you are not doing that. That is your fault. So it cannot be failure unless you are negligent. You have no utsāhaḥ. This is the process. Utsāhaḥ dhairyaḥ niścayaḥ tat-tat-karma-pravartanaḥ, sato vṛtteḥ. How these boys are advancing? They have got enthusiasm: "Yes, we must make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." They have given up everything. They are young men. They have got... Every young man has to satisfy senses in so many ways. But no. They are so enthusiastic, but... For understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have given up everything. They are Europeans, Americans. They have got so many allurement. But I have told them that "You must give up illicit sex," they have given up; "You must give up meat-eating," they have given up; "You must give up intoxication up to drinking tea and cigarette," and they have given up, these young men. So they are utsāhaḥ. There is enthusiasm: "Yes, we must do it." That is wanted, not theoretically on the armchair of devotional service. That will not be successful. Armchair theory will not help you. You must be practical and there must be enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. You are sitting in the same position and you are thinking that you are making progress. That will fail. You have to come out with enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. That is required. Ciraṁ vicinvan.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: No, therefore you are under the control of God. You understand it. So you cannot become free. Therefore death is there, ultimately. You are thinking you are free of the kingdom of God, or laws of God. "No, you are not free. You'll die and you'll accept another body and according to My decision." That is God. This is a question like "Why government created punishment? Why not enjoy ourself without any punishment?" It is a question like that. And that cannot be. It is not possible. That is the proof that there is God.

Trivikrama: Death.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Trivikrama: Death is the proof that there is God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: And the other part is that then there is another body.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Death and then another body.

Prabhupāda: Another body, immediately. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). That is the tangible proof that there is God. You have to die and accept another body. Just like the proof of government is that you are acting irresponsibly, you must be arrested or be punished. That's all.

Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. There was a big animal. So what is the difference? They are animals, big or small. You have seen a skeleton of pygmy man also. So where is that man now? You have seen pygmy man, you don't require archeological. So where is that man?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't live any more. Now we are more intelligent. Previously there were pygmy men, very less intelligent, small, not nice looking. Now we have got more...

Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra you are going to be pygmy men. That is, there is proof, because you are not as strong as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our śāstra you come to that pygmy, (indistinct) in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history repeating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say there was Kali-yuga. Four yugas are changing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dinosaurs also?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're from Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... (BG 3.27). They're going on.

Devotee: But if we have bones from so many yugas ago...

Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Good things, does it require...? That is propaganda. You have got some false thing, you have to make propaganda to prove it, that it is real.

Devotee: That is the proof it is false.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man has taken money for... And he cannot supply even maintenance for his wife and girl. You have seen Mālatī?

Devotee: Yes Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Not properly dressed. And this poor girl is not properly dressed. And he's thinking he'll (indistinct).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His head is in the clouds.

Haṁsadūta: I think Bali Mardana became infected by Śyāmasundara. He saw that Śyāmasundara was going to be a millionaire so then he had to also become a millionaire. So he got Mrs. Toyota.

Prabhupāda: He got a cheat wife. Eh? Mother said she cheated that "I am twenty-six years."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many things she cheated.

Prabhupāda: Simply cheated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he wanted to be cheated.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Your seeing has no power. This is no argument, "I cannot see." I cannot see the other side. That does not mean there is nothing. This is all rascaldom. He has become authority "I want to see." What you can see? Now this is Indian Ocean. On the other side there is India, and other islands, but you cannot see it. Does it mean there is nothing? So, these are foolish questions. Because they are rascals they put such questions and nonsense. That is the proof that they are rascals. They are simply taking authority his little vision. That's all. What is your vision? Why don't you see what is the other side? But does it mean there is nothing because you cannot see? WHen one says "I cannot see," that means he is a rascal number one. He's believing so much upon his seeing. He does not know that he is a most insignificant person, so there is no value of his seeing. That he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal. Is it not? He's believing his eyes so greatly that "I cannot see." And what is the value of your seeing? What you can see?

Amogha: But there are so many people who come to us and say, "Well, we can see." But we don't believe they can see.

Prabhupāda: What they can see?

Amogha: We don't think anyone can see.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized. And if he doesn't know what is government, he is simply living there, he's a third class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair, but you do not know it. Then you are third-class man. You are not human being; you are animal. Animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be—brāhmaṇa. Brāhma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized.

Gaṇeśa: The Bhagavad-gītā was written five thousand years ago, so it doesn't pertain to today.

Prabhupāda: No, it was not written. It was there. Then you do not read Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are speaking like that? You know Bhagavad-gītā? You have not studied Bhagavad-gītā. That is a disgrace for you. You have read Bhagavad-gītā?

Gaṇeśa: A little.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Amogha: He says yes, a little.

Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. Why he says that Bhagavad-gītā was written five thousand years ago? Why do you say like that? You do not know. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... What kind of realization of Bhagavad-gītā, you do not know? I am accusing you because you are student of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How you do not know?

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen. New York is very dilapidated, many quarters. And especially Second Avenue, those are very dirty. The... On the Fifth Avenue, that Central Park is also very dirty. This civilization will collapse. It cannot be run on. Fourth-class men, I tell. Because it is conducted by the fourth-class men. Ask that gentleman why they are asking. Are they not fourth-class men? They could not manage?

Śrutakīrti: That man last night admitted. He said, "Now I must leave and do my fourth-class activities."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fourth class. This is the proof. Fourth-class men administering... Just like misadministration not immediately detected. After some time, when the case is unmanageable, it is detected. Therefore fourth-class men. Simply these Western people, they know how to earn money by hook and crook. So, so long the money is there it is covered, the fourth-class men. And when the money is finished, they are exposed, fourth-class men. They're simply covered by money. No social structure, no spiritual understanding, no character, nothing of the sort. Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very peacefully. And in the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce. Are they not fourth class? Even the husband and wife cannot continue peaceful life, what to speak of others. Now this rascal Jawaharlal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society. Otherwise in the Hindu society separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight, everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. (laughter) But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. Even in the life of Gandhi there was fight between husband and wife, and the Gandhi one day drove his wife, "Get out from my home." So she was put into the street, and she began to cry, "Where shall I go?" And then Gandhi ans..., "Come on." Yes. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? The divorce mean it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases.

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Your preaching is all right, so, provided you preach something good. But when everything is good, then where is the, your preaching required? You preach something. Just like we are preaching. We are preaching. This is actually good for, that he must know what he is and what is the ultimate goal of life. This is required. Material preaching has no value. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Ei bhāla ei manda, saba manodharma: " 'This is good; this is bad,' this is all mental concoction." Actually. But real good is: "He has forgotten God. Revive his consciousness." That is real good. Then he'll saved from the so-called good and bad and everything. That is wanted. Materially, everything is one man's food, another man's poison. Therefore there is no distinction—"This is good; this is bad." The stool is very bad, bad smell for you, but it is food for the pig. This is proof—"One man's food, another's poison." So this is only mental concoction, "This is good; this is bad."

Everything is good; everything is bad—materially. The real good for him, that he has forgotten his spiritual identification; revive him to that consciousness. That is real good. Somebody brings just now bucketfuls of water, and if he proposes "I shall drench you," "No, no, no, don't you drench me." But you will find—we are going—the ducks, as soon as they..., immediately jump on the water. So whether water is good or bad? It is all relative. So don't bother about this good and bad. It is simply mental concoction. (pause) You can bring me breakfast at eight.

Devotee (1): Eight o'clock. All right.

Prabhupāda: Not so early.

Śrutakīrti: And no mango for breakfast.

Morning Walk -- May 16, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: They have changed?

Amogha: Yes. They are open on the Sabbath.

Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is the first planet nearer, why they did not start Monday? If the sun is after, then Sunday. This is the proof that first sun, then moon, not that first moon and then sun. Hm? That is the description in the Bhāgavatam. One after another, one after another. Sixteen thousand, sixteen hundred thousand miles apart. First of all sun, then moon, then, what is called? Mars. You have seen it.

Amogha: Mars is above the moon?

Śrutakīrti: But the scientists wouldn't even agree that the sun is the first created thing.

Prabhupāda: Who is accepting them as scientists? You can accept them. Why Sunday first? Wherefrom they have gotten?

Śrutakīrti: That was gotten from Greek mythology.

Prabhupāda: Then Greek, where they got it?

Devotee (1): Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden.

Prabhupāda: Where they got these demigods?

Śrutakīrti: From Greek mythology.

Prabhupāda: Greek mythology, that's all right. But where they got?

Morning Walk -- May 16, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: This "Sunday, Monday," means first sun, then moon. Where they are going? They are going to hell, not in the moon. This Vedic description is right. Because first study, Sunday... That, we offer gāyatrī to the sun. So the moon is after the sun—this is the proof, first Sunday, then Monday. So if their calculation is 93,000,000 miles from here, and moon is (sic:) one million, six thousand still farther, then where they are going? If they simply follow strictly this moon expedition and they admit they have not gone, then the whole civilization will change. All wrong conclusion. But they will have to admit now. Now they are serious, and they will have to say that they've never gone to the moon. And they will have to continue this. Otherwise they will be farce before the world. They will have to continue it. Now they are in such a position.

Paramahaṁsa: They can't just stop and say, "OK, now we..."

Prabhupāda: If they stop, then they are failure.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And then everyone will complain, "Oh, you wasted billions of dollars."

Prabhupāda: And if they go, then they will have the right information. But they will never be able to go.

Devotee (1): Just like Rāvaṇa could not reach the heavenly planets just by building the staircase.

Prabhupāda: That was his only demonic proposal, that "We make staircase." He said that "Why you are undergoing so much austerities to go to the heavenly planets? I shall make a staircase. You will go."

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else—that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa—then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Paricarya means service. To accept... (break) So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment.

This is brāhmaṇa. We do not serve anyone, any merchant, officer, any... No. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If Kṛṣṇa wants, He will give us food, or we shall starve. We are not going to serve. This is the proof. We are spending not less than twenty lakhs of rupees for maintaining our establishment throughout the whole world, but we do not know what is our next moment's income. We do not know... We have eaten today. We do not know whether we shall have any eatable next day. This is our position. If it is available, we shall eat; otherwise we shall starve. This is our position. Still, I don't seek any employment, "Give us some service to maintain our..." No, we don't do that. We never do that. When I was alone, I was not doing that. I was living alone. I had no income, no friend, no shelter. Since I left my home, since 1954, I never cared for anyone maintaining me. And there was no resource, fixed income, nothing of the sort. I depended on Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, in the whole society we are feeding daily ten thousand men.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, that is not authorized. Therefore we say specifically, "Bhagavad-gītā As It is," no interpretation. Here Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we preach that thing. We preach that "You be Kṛṣṇa conscious." Man-manāḥ: "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says. And we are teaching these disciples, "Always think of Kṛṣṇa." There is no difference. We don't create. And therefore it is successful. Others, they created their own concoction; it was never successful. Before me, so many swamis came to the Western countries. They were not successful. Not a single person was Kṛṣṇa conscious, in the history. In the history of the last two hundred years so many swamis are coming in the Western countries. They also speak on Bhagavad-gītā, but not a single person was Kṛṣṇa conscious. And since we have presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, hundreds and thousands. This is the proof, that they presented something concoction. It was, what is called, impotent.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: A impotent man having sex, he cannot beget children. He can enjoy that sex, but he cannot beget child. Similarly, these so-called swamis, they are impotent. They could not produce any child of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the proof. (To Amogha:(?)) So you reply him. Don't be innocent like that.

Dr. Copeland: (laughs) You can't just say that they don't exist. They're there. And surely there were other people...

Prabhupāda: No, that is... That was... About hundred years ago Vivekananda came, and he stayed in New York, but these people... When I came, I asked, "What is...? Do you know Vivekananda?" They said, "No, we do not know." I had to find out, search out, where is Vivekananda's center. It was not very prominent. Nobody was going. So for hundred years they worked, this Ramakrishna Mission. They could not establish even half a dozen centers in America. And I established forty centers within six years. And in each center there is devotees not less than twenty-five, up to 225. In Los Angeles we purchased one church. The church was sold because nobody was coming. And since we have taken... If you sometimes go to Los Angeles, you will see it is packed always. The same people, the same church—why it is packed now? And why it was sold without any attendance? What is the difference? I have not brought these men from India; neither I brought that church from India. The church was there, and these people were there.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: No, accidentally they went to Rahu. Maybe. That is also not...

Indian man: (break)...gone at all outside this atmosphere of earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...haven't gone to moon planet, that is my... (break) ...why they will give it up? That is the proof. America was found by Columbus. So many people came from Europe and utilized it. So if they would have gone to moon planet, they would have utilized it. But they have not gone. That is the fact.

Paramahaṁsa: That was their original proposal, that they can utilize it, make colonies there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Devotee (3): The moon exploration, because they thought that we cannot use the moon like Columbus, they used America.

Prabhupāda: That is your excuse.

Paramahaṁsa: They say it's too much like the desert.

Harikeśa: That's cause they were in the desert. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (break) ...grow so many nice dates, you know that? You cannot say in the desert there is no...

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes. Arabia they grow.

Morning Walks -- June 18-19, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Indulge in sex.

Siddha-svarūpa: ...indulge in sex so that it's just a cultural thing that they actually try to control that just for health and mental power, whereas in the west the leaders and the people in general... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...and because they indulge too much in sex, therefore they cannot understand. That is the proof they are fools.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. (break) ...control themselves. The colonialists will go in and... (break)

Prabhupāda: Unless they are taught about spiritual attraction, everyone will be finished. (break) ...very childhood they should be given spiritual education. (break) ...by repressive method you will never be successful.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Repression is also due to frustration. That they can't convince someone... (break)

Prabhupāda: Russians are doing that by repression.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Then whenever their back is turned the people do something else. Or they will stab them in the... (break)

Prabhupāda: They do that? (break) Leaders?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. (break) Yes. So the only way that they can attract them is to just let them free in the school. But I said that... (break)

Prabhupāda: I have seen in the Hawaii University, all hippies.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, accepting that there is a eternal soul, how is the soul distinguished, then, from the body or from the machine since things like the senses, the mind, the intelligence, desire and hate, which people accept as the symptoms of the soul...

Prabhupāda: That is the proof, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). When the body is finished, no more working, the soul is there, he has accepted another body. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Those who are educated, sober they are not surprised. Those who are not educated, they are surprised. Therefore this very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra means one who is sober by education. He knows the soul has now left this body. He has accepted another body. That is dhīra. He knows by education. Therefore this very word... Find out.

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Now big, big scholars, they have taken the trouble to write on Bhagavad-gītā. But nobody has taken the trouble to write on other scriptures like Bible or Koran. Nobody has taken. No scholar, no philosopher have tried to comment or study because they know it is not very important. Here is important. This is the proof, wisest. And that is only ABCD of God's knowledge. So people should take advantage. It is accepted indirectly. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā, in your country, English. Why they take trouble to read Bhagavad-gītā so carefully? Big, big scholars, philosophers, why? (break) It is the impersonal, cloth. So Śaṅkarācārya has tried to impress this fact, but the rascals followed in a different way. Just like a cloth, big cloth, that is impersonal. Now, you cut it into coat. It becomes like person. So similarly this whole material world is impersonal, but because we have taken a certain portion of it and make my body, it looks like person. And God is not like that. He is spiritual person. He has nothing to do with material. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). What Śaṅkarācārya impressed, that they are after demigods, so "The demigods, they are not actual person. Real person is Nārāyaṇa." That is Śaṅkarācārya's version. Nārāyaṇa... You will find in his comment on the Bhagavad-gītā. First word he writes, nārāyaṇaḥ paro 'vyaktād: "Nārāyaṇa has nothing to do with this material world." And he accepts in his comment, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ: "That Nārāyaṇa has appeared as Kṛṣṇa." And he has given specific name of His father as "the son of Devakī and Vasudeva" so that nobody can misidentify. If you have got Śaṅkara's bhāṣya, commentary on Bhagavad-gītā, you bring it I shall show you. (break) Kṛṣṇa also confirms. That verse, which we were reading last evening... Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: (BG 9.4) "This jagat, this material world, is impersonal. And that is My energy. Therefore the whole world is resting upon Me, but I am not there. As person, I am not there." This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like the sunshine is spreading all over the universe, but the sun is aloof. Take this example. Not that because the sunshine is here, we are now getting, the sun has come here. The sun is shining from the distant place. He is aloof. Similarly, God is person and His shining is all this creation. That is impersonal.

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: So let him prove there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that "Here is soul."

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how should they set out to prove it, though? We've proved it by giving scriptural evidence. But how should a scientist do it?

Prabhupāda: No, we prove it as a living and dead man, we give that proof. What is the difference between this dead man and living man? What is losing? What is missing? This is the proof. If... I so many times spoken that son is crying, "My father is gone, my father." "Where is your father gone? He is lying here. So what is gone? You have not seen it." This is the proof. Why do you cry, "Father is gone"? Father is lying here. Why do you say, "gone"? So that means what is gone, you have never seen it. Now you perceive, "Yes, something was there. Now he is gone." This is the proof.

Bahulāśva: So our statements are also backed up by observation. The Gītā's statements are also backed up by observation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Science means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe that this man is moving. There is something... (sound of someone calling from a distance) (Prabhupāda calls:) Invite him. You are invited come. (laughter)

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the psychologist is in ecstasy every time he speaks to you.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, he is a good boy. Although I say, "You do not know anything." (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't become angry?

Prabhupāda: No.

Morning Walk -- September 13, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To stop wars. But they haven't stopped a single war.

Dhṛṣṭaketu: But if Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme and I should surrender unto Him, then why is it so hard to find out this knowledge? Why is it that only in the human form of life... Why is it so difficult to come to this knowledge if...

Prabhupāda: Because you are rascal. For rascal everything is difficult. Easy thing is made difficult by rascals. That is the proof that you are rascal. By nature one is supposed to surrender to the parents. This is easy. Why do you do not do this? This is natural. Just like you have surrendered to me. Why? Because you think I am superior, you have to take knowledge from me. So if you have to accept some superior for your guidance, how you can deny surrendering? You see, brahmacārī, he is being taught daṇḍavat śīraṣi, by touching the head. Yesterday we were talking of that brahmacārī? That is the instruction. Who is this boy?

Harikeśa: He's Kuṇḍali. He just came from New York.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He just came from New York. He's from the West... He's a Commonwealth citizen. He's from the West Indies. He says he'll stay in India for the rest of his life.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So you are going to the magistrate? You have calculated?

Saurabha: Ten thousand bags.

Prabhupāda: Ten thousand bags. No, I wanted to construct this building with bricks.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: But death is sure. If you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the point. (laughs) Death is sure. And if you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the proof. Suppose I am sitting here, we are walking here, and some danger is coming. It will immediately kill. So shall I remain here very peacefully? First of all make insurance, just like they make insurance, that no death will come. Your scientific advancement, your so many advancement, make it sure that you will not die. You will live here comfortably forever. Then you make your house nice, decorate it very... Where is that arrangement?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if death is sure in any case... If death is sure in any case, for the thinking man or for the nonthinking man, then why think about it?

Prabhupāda: No, non... For thinking men, for them there is no death; there is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between thinking men and nonthinking men. We are preparing for going... (break) There is... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That is intelligence. Now, suppose that here is open field. There is... We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least, if I don't spoil my energy to make the place uncomfortable, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That's all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to...

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Matchbox.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.

Prabhupāda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell.

Harikeśa: I don't know. I'm enjoying.

Prabhupāda: You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. (laughter)

Devotee (1): We need defense so we have to work hard to keep defense, economy. The common man has to contribute to the state to keep its defense.

Prabhupāda: Defense, that means...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's today... Unless there is very complex society...

Devotee (1): Otherwise we will be exploited.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless there is a very complex...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nations. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value?

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that this so-called suffering is actually pleasure.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Go on pleasure. Who checks you? Enjoy this pleasure. If everything is pleasure, then why you take the counteractive process? Why do you want to kill child? Pleasure? Why do you take contraceptive method if it is pleasure? That is the proof how much rascal they are. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Try to understand why Kṛṣṇa has spoken so many times, "mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā." Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is speaking like that. There must be some meaning. Human civilization means to give relief to the human being, comfortable life, not to repeat the same business like the animals. That is human civilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We see practically that only the devotees are somewhat free from anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We have little anxieties simply because we have to deal with this rascal world. Otherwise we have no anxiety. But we have taken this mission, to go and approach them, tell them the truth. Therefore we have got little anxiety. Otherwise there is no question of anxiety. Because we are mixing with these rascals—and we have to do that, who have taken this mission-therefore little anxiety there. That is also not very much. But you must know, the whole world is full of rascals and fools. That is not exaggeration. Eh? Or you have got different opinion?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Hm? What do you think? Do you agree?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are mūḍhas.

Morning Walk -- October 20, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: He is a fool, rascal, blind. Where there is happiness not possible, he is trying to find out happiness. Therefore he is a fool. Which is not possible, if one tries for it, then he is fool.

Harikeśa: But I look around and I see everybody else enjoying.

Prabhupāda: Because you are fool, you are seeing like that. That is the proof that you are a fool.

Harikeśa: They all tell me what a great time...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that "This is a place of suffering," and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate. (laughter) Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, "No admission." So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He's a fool. If there is signboard, "There is no admission," and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no happiness," and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. He has no trouble. Kṛṣṇa said, "There is no happiness," and if somebody thinks, "All right, although Kṛṣṇa said, let me try for it," then he is a fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, they say that they can cure disease, but it's impossible.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The disease is suffering, and this place is suffering, so where is the question of curing disease? Kṛṣṇa consciousness means intelligence. We are guided by Kṛṣṇa, so there is no trouble. Everything is all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And as soon as you make experiment like fools and rascal, then you are doomed.

Morning Walk -- October 20, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that you are a rascal. "Fools rush in where angels dare not." That is the proof. The hog is thinking, "I am very happy." Therefore he is hog. He is not a human being. Hog proves that he is hog by thinking that "I am very happy. I am getting fatty." (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...suffer. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That's a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy?

Prabhupāda: That I have repeatedly said. Therefore, because they are thinking like that, therefore they are rascals. That is the proof. There is no happiness; still, he is thinking, "I am happy." That is the proof that he's a rascal. (break)

Harikeśa: Well, we can admit that we're not happy all the time, but what is the meaning of happiness without distress? If there's no distress, how can I be happy?

Prabhupāda: So that is material knowledge. In order to taste happiness, you have to suffer. That is material happiness. And happiness, pure, is spiritual happiness. Here, in order to enjoy happiness, you have to suffer; then you can taste. Therefore that is not real happiness. (break)

Harikeśa: A sandtrap. This is where the ball goes in and it's very difficult to hit it out of there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Harikeśa: So you're not supposed to hit it in there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Harikeśa: It makes it more difficult.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they hit a golf ball, Śrīla Prabhupāda, two hundred yards, and it goes into the hole.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness.

Morning Walk -- October 20, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: The same thing, that small animals praising the big animals, that's all. At least they say something about God. They are not zero, but they have no clear conception of God.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is thinking that their religion is the best. Even the Christian may be ignorant, even the Jew may be ignorant, anyone—doesn't matter—they're thinking that theirs is the best.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that everyone is fool. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). First of all... Therefore we have to understand from Bhāgavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead. So instead of love of Godhead, the love of doghead is increasing. So where is religion? Everybody should keep a dog and serve him, and where is God?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they think that God is in the other world, so that in this world we can serve our wife and family, and when we go to the other world we'll serve God.

Prabhupāda: Then God is separated from this world. How much imperfect knowledge it is. God has created this world, and He has nothing to do with. Just see. They say God created this world, but He has nothing to do with it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very imperfect understanding.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...you were with Meher Baba?

Harikeśa: No, I was never with Meher Baba. (laughter) I just bring up all these points just so you can defeat them. I was with Maharishi.

Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that?

Morning Walk -- October 20, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Who?

Harikeśa: His disciples gave him, Maharishi, four big pills of LSD.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maharishi?

Harikeśa: Yes. And he just stood there and said nothing happened. So everybody said, "This is proof that he's already there."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Because he just stood there and said, "Nothing is happening to me," everybody has figured that he is already there.

Prabhupāda: "There" means where?

Harikeśa: At the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: Hell. (laughter)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (break) Anyone who is thinking that they're happy is simply a rascal. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...saying the black man is not allowed to marry a white woman?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. Neither vice versa also. There is no intermarriage permitted here. (end)

Morning Walk -- October 21, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?

Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems that you've made it so easy to defeat the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yet all the universities, schools throughout the world, they're simply following this experimental knowledge of the scientists. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...machine is recording, but as soon as electricity stops—the machine is there—it will not record. You cannot say the machine is the ultimate. Machine is there; it will not record as soon as the electricity is missing. So that electricity, either you say soul or something else, you replace it. Just like electricity means the battery you charge, it will work, again record. Similarly, if you say "That is not soul, something missing," so you can replace it. What is that something? That something also you do not know. Then how can you refute my argument, soul? You do not know anything. I at least know something on the basis of śāstra. But you have neither śāstra nor experiment, nothing else. So who is strong? I am strong or you are strong?

Morning Walk -- October 26, 1975, Mauritius:

Brahmānanda: They will argue.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Because the heart is full of dirty things, so therefore ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, this is the process. First of all cleanse the heart. Just like slate. If it is unclean, or the mirror, if it is unclean, you cannot see. So you have to cleanse his heart. That we can do. The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... And that is proof. Otherwise how could you come to this camp unless the heart is cleansed? That's a proof.

Brahmānanda: They came by the chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some fish? No.

Brahmānanda: In the Old Testament, God was speaking to Moses. So Moses wanted to see God. He was on a mountain. And he turned around, but then God became a burning bush.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was supposed to be the back of God. The burning bush was the back of God.

Prabhupāda: Burning bush?

Brahmānanda: A bush that was on fire.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: That's what...

Prabhupāda: God has no material body.

Morning Walk -- November 11, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: You have to convince him that "Your eyes are imperfect." Then you can tell, "Just close your eyes. Can you see the eyelid? It closes, but you cannot see. Why? You have got eyes. When there is some particle in the eye, so close and find out where is the particle. Why making this way, this way, this way? So what is the value of your eyes? This is the proof. You cannot see even your eyelids. So why do... Why you are so much proud of seeing?" Is it not?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is conviction. He can say that "I cannot see on account of distant place, the planet," but you see the nearest. So you cannot see distant place things and you cannot see nearest. Then what is the value of your eyes? That means you can see only under certain condition. So condition is offered by somebody else. Therefore you are conditioned. Your seeing is conditioned, because it is not absolute. So how do you believe your eyes? Hm?

Devotee (3): The vision of the eyes is imperfect. We have to see by intelligence, from the authority...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not intelligence; that is fact. Intelligence you should have that "However I can perceive by the senses, the senses being imperfect, all our perceptions are imperfect." That is intelligence.

Devotee (3): Then one may ask, "Well, how do I recognize that this is the bona fide authority?"

Prabhupāda: Who authorized? Another rascal, that's all. He's a rascal. Another rascal... Just like sva-vid-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). A lion is being praised by the rabbit in the jungle. The rabbit is also animal; lion is also. So what is the use of lion being praised by a rabbit? If a lion is praised by a rabbit, does it mean lion is more than animal? So similarly, these so-called scientists, big men, they are being praised by small rascals. That does not mean on account of praising, he has become more than animal. He remains animal.

Devotee (3): We see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but they see Him as a common man like themselves also.

Morning Walk -- November 16, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana. As soon as there is no religion, the population-animal, that's all. That is going on. Because there was no religion, therefore the government has to declare emergency. (laughter) Because all animals. So they created first animals, then emergency. This is going on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why emergency? If there is human being, then why emergency? All animals. To control the animals you require some special measure. This is the proof that they're animals. Otherwise why? Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is long, long ago said, dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana: "When you give up religion, you are no better than animals."

Indian man (3): What is the harm if I become an animal also?

Prabhupāda: You are already animal. There is no question of becoming animal. You are already animal. (laughter)

Indian man (3): So what is the difference between animal and a man?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not know, therefore you are animal. Therefore you are animal. You do not know what is the difference between man and animal; therefore you are animal.

Indian man (3): Very good. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: You are good animal. (laughter)

Indian man (3): This is right answer. When you cannot differentiate between man and animal, then that means you are animal.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Air from the ether because when the air blows, you find the sound, sshhhh. That is ether.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, like some...

Harikeśa: But the example's got to go the other way. From the ether comes the air.

Prabhupāda: That you found out, example. But this is the proof there is ether within the air. That example is given many times in Bhagavad-gītā.

Passerby: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Haṁsadūta: Does it mean beyond the ether there's no sound?

Prabhupāda: Beyond the ether there is mind, there is mind.

Haṁsadūta: There's no sound?

Prabhupāda: No, what is the sound of the mind? Everyone knows you have mind, I have mind, but where is the sound of the mind?

Harikeśa: There's subtle and the gross has no realm in the subtle?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is finer.

Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand:

Prabhupāda: The philosophy classes are being closed now in the universities.

Harikeśa: It is useless.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're thinking it is useless, simply mental speculation. And Bhagavad-gītā says, tattva jñānārthaṁ darśanam. Philosophy means to find out the ultimate truth. That is philosophy.

Harikeśa: But actually this is the proof of Marx's philosophy...

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say the dialectic. The dialectics should proceed further. They have ended this, that the workers should be the proprietor.

Harikeśa: So now the, the, the, there's no philosophy. So the workers, they are simply frustrated. Now they're going to rebel and revolt without any philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be natural. Because if you cannot live perfect philosophy, then they will revolt. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ... You are a rascal, and you're trying to lead other rascals with some rascal philosophy. How long this rascaldom will go on?

Harikeśa: So there's no need for any movement...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Harikeśa: ...Communist movement.

Prabhupāda: There is need of movement.

Page Title:That is the proof (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, RupaManjari
Created:03 of Jan, 2013
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=63, Let=0
No. of Quotes:63