Prabhupāda: So from this book we understand from the version of Kṛṣṇa, or God, that ā-brahma bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). Even if you go to the highest planetary system, again you have to come back. In this way, all living entities are rotating from one planet to another, from one species of life to another. But we don't want this actually. If I say that "If I give you a nice body, youthful body, and eternal body, full of knowledge," would you not like to have it? Nobody likes old age, nobody likes death, nobody likes to die, nobody likes to take birth again, enter into the womb of mother and live there ten months. You are tight packed. Nobody likes. But what is the solution? Is there any solution by the scientist? No scientist can say, "Well, all right, we shall stop death. We shall stop disease." They can manufacture nice medicine to counteract disease, but they cannot manufacture anything which will stop disease. You can fight against death very nicely, but you cannot stop death. These are the problems. But there is no education in the modern civilization how to stop death, how to stop disease, how to stop old age, how to stop birth, how to attain eternal life, how to attain blissful life. They have no education.
Take birth (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So from this book we understand from the version of Kṛṣṇa, or God, that ā-brahma bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). Even if you go to the highest planetary system, again you have to come back. In this way, all living entities are rotating from one planet to another, from one species of life to another. But we don't want this actually. If I say that "If I give you a nice body, youthful body, and eternal body, full of knowledge," would you not like to have it? Nobody likes old age, nobody likes death, nobody likes to die, nobody likes to take birth again, enter into the womb of mother and live there ten months. You are tight packed. Nobody likes. But what is the solution? Is there any solution by the scientist? No scientist can say, "Well, all right, we shall stop death. We shall stop disease." They can manufacture nice medicine to counteract disease, but they cannot manufacture anything which will stop disease. You can fight against death very nicely, but you cannot stop death. These are the problems. But there is no education in the modern civilization how to stop death, how to stop disease, how to stop old age, how to stop birth, how to attain eternal life, how to attain blissful life. They have no education.
Interviewer: Would you give me a background, the history and origin of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No history can trace out the origin of Kṛṣṇa consciousness because the living entities, they are eternal. The bodily concept of life is not correct. Nobody dies, nobody takes birth. Everyone is eternal. This change of body is considered a change of dress. Therefore nobody can say that "This is the beginning of life." So whenever there is life, there is consciousness also, and originally the consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But due to our long material association that consciousness is covered. Therefore we are out of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This movement is to revive that Kṛṣṇa consciousness again, so that he can be raised to his original position.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This is second chapter, First Canto. Sūta Gosvāmī, before speaking to the audience, he is offering his respect to the spiritual master. To offer respect to anyone means to remember his qualification. Just like we sing... Just like you offer respect to your spiritual master. What is the meaning?
- nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
- śrīmad-bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
Yes. "I offer my respectful obeisances to Swami Bhaktivedanta, who is very dear to Kṛṣṇa, and has come before us to deliver." This is the meaning. So his qualification is described. Similarly, here also Sūta Gosvāmī is offering respect to his spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. And he is repeating the history of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Śukadeva Gosvāmī, just after taking birth from the mother's womb, immediately he started, without staying for a moment. Just see the brahmacārī. The... Father, they are naturally affectionate.
Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is composed of four different stages. The first stage is to understand the relationship with Godhead, or Kṛṣṇa. Because the conditioned souls at the present moment, they have forgotten self. They have forgotten their relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Actually the relationship is there, eternal, but under the influence of māyā he is thinking that "I am something of this material world," identifying himself with this body. So we have to awake them from that illusory existence, what he is not. The whole mistake of the modern status of life... I don't say modern civilization. This is coming up since the creation of this material world. Sometimes it is in greater degree and sometimes in lesser degree. In Satya-yuga the same condition, but in lesser degree. But in Kali-yuga the condition is in greater degree. So the first business is to awake the conditioned souls from their illusory position, that he is thinking, "I am this body and anything in relationship with this body is very important." Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is illusion. We speak of illusion, māyā. This is illusion, that "I am this body and anything in relation of this body..." I have got special relationship with certain woman, so I think, "She is my wife. I cannot do without her." Or another woman from whom I have taken birth, "She is my mother.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (3): Upanayana-saṁskāra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that sacred thread is the certificate that he has accepted a spiritual master. That is our Vedic system, identity, thread, sacred thread. So the upana... The saṁskāra is called upanayana-saṁskāra. Upanayana means he has gone near the spiritual master. Therefore he is now dvija, second birth. When a person goes to the spiritual master, that is his second birth because he is born foolish. Take birth by the combination of father, mother—that is material birth—that is a birth of ignorance, just like animals. The animals also take their birth in that way. There is no different process, the sex life. So what is the difference between animal and man? Therefore, upanayana, dvija.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn what is the birth of Kṛṣṇa. You do not know. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). You do not know what is the birth. You are thinking that He is, like ordinary man He has taken birth. Otherwise why does He say, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ? Nobody knows what is His birth? He thinks He's... Just like a child sees daily that the sun rises from the eastern side—therefore eastern side is the father of sun. Is eastern side father of the sun? Sun is always there, but you see in the morning it is appearing from the eastern side. That's all. It is your angle of vision, not that sun is born, taking birth from the eastern side. Sun is always there in the sky. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is always there but to the foolish person it appears that He is born. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā. Ajo 'pi: "I have no birth." Ajaḥ. This very word is used. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san. So how you can compare Kṛṣṇa's birth like ordinary birth? If anyone knows what is Kṛṣṇa's birth he becomes liberated. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that knowledge is not tattvataḥ knowledge, that Kṛṣṇa's birth. Kṛṣṇa's birth is every moment. Just like sun. Now here it is not sunshine but in another place the sunshine is rising. So is that the birth, or when the sun will rise here, that will be birth? Which will be the birth of sun?
Guest (3): It will always be there.
Prabhupāda: Now, you are saying that Kṛṣṇa says that incorporeal. But Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who thinks that I am incorporeal, that he is a fool."
Guest (1): Quite right. Lord Kṛṣṇa as such, if anybody calls Him incorporeal, he's a fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Because He has a body, He has taken birth from Devaki. And incorporeal does not...
Prabhupāda: Therefore the Kṛṣṇa says that one has to understand that what is Kṛṣṇa's birth. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that tattvataḥ is not yo. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa actually, he becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Anyone simply who understands Kṛṣṇa, he becomes immediately liberated. If you understood Kṛṣṇa correctly, then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me.
Guest (2): It is what...
Prabhupāda: No, that's all. Then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. I am for those who are conditioned, but you are liberated, so you have nothing to ask from me.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra.
Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of necessity. It says that it is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be... God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. (break) The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities.
Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, all of them become nullified and this rascal comes forward to defy all the ācāryas and push some new theory. Just see. This is going on. (Sanskrit) In the Varāha Purāṇa it is stated that some of the rākṣasas, they will take advantage of Kali-yuga and take birth in brāhmaṇa families, so he is one of them, this rākṣasa. And now he is suffering for that. Greatest calamity, you see? And according to Vedic injunction, the king if he levies tax from the subjects who are sinful, then he has to partake of the sinful action and he'll have to suffer. So, this rascal became the president of India, it is the position of king and on the (indistinct) of him he supported the slaughterhouses and levied taxes and he took high salary, enjoyed it. Now he is suffering the effect, sinful effect. Now in his living condition he has lost his brain. He, practically dead but living condition, it is very precarious condition. One is living actually but his brain is not acting, worse than a madman. So, this is the result of the rākṣasa statement. Yes, go on. (end)
Prabhupāda: So the Indians who are outside India, they have got a special duty. So far our economic condition is concerned, as I explained yesterday, that one is destined to certain material comforts and discomforts, according to his body—already he has got. So either you stay in India or you stay in America, the bodily comforts or sense gratification, that will be achieved either in India or America. What you are destined to achieve, you will have it because as soon as your body is manufactured, your standard of comfort and discomfort is also manufactured. In Bengal there is a proverb that yethā deoyā bhange, kapāla yābe saṅge(?): "Wherever you go, your fortune will go with you." Fortune and misfortune, that will also go with you. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said one thing, that "Any Indian, any man who has taken birth on the soil of Bhāratavarṣa, India, he has got a special duty. And that duty is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Prabhupāda: Hm. But anyway, because you are living in this country, you must have some friends. Whenever you talk with your friends, you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste your time in other ways. That will be beneficial for you and for your friends. And before talking about Kṛṣṇa, you should know about Kṛṣṇa. And you can know about Kṛṣṇa very easily by understanding Bhagavad-gītā. So read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. Try to understand it and you can distribute it. That is a great service to Kṛṣṇa, to your personal self, and to the person you are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. And four principles of impious life, as it is accepted by our Vedic followers, namely, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. That will give you strength and over and above that, if you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... You can chant. It is not difficult. There is no loss. You can chant. That will give you spiritual strength. And in this way try to become spiritually powerful and serve Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter. Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor everywhere. So if you be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so wherever you may be, you'll be with Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you remain with Kṛṣṇa, you are not living within this material world. You are living in the spiritual world. So, especially I request Indians, as it is ordered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra: (CC Adi 9.41) "Anyone who has taken birth on the holy land of Bhāratavarṣa, India," janma sārthaka kari, "just make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and preach it."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. How He took birth?
Devotee child (1): Did He take birth? A four-armed form. He took birth as four-armed form. He came out from Devaki's womb.
Prabhupāda: You have seen any child with four arms? Have you seen?
Devotee child: (1) Hmmh.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Devotee child (1): In pictures.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee child (1): In the picture. Here.
Prabhupāda: Picture. In life have you seen four arms? No?
Devotee child (1): What?
Prabhupāda: One child with four arms, have you seen?
Devotee children: No.
Prabhupāda: No?
Prabhupāda: That, that I have repeatedly said, that you Americans, you are..., you have already the grace of the Lord. According to our Vedic formula, when a man is born in rich family he is understood to be possessing the grace of the Lord. So you Americans, you have got sufficient riches, you are sons of rich men. So this is the grace of God, janma aiśvarya, to take birth in a high family, to possess riches; janmaiśvarya śruta (SB 1.8.26), to become learned scholar. Just like you are going to the moon planet. Your scientific knowledge is advanced. And śrī, śrī means beauty. So you are beautiful also. So considering all these four points, it is to be understood that you are in favorable condition, favorable consideration of the Absolute Truth Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, then all your these material opulences plus Kṛṣṇa consciousness makes your life perfect.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Brahmānanda: Welfare work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do without taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Because you have got stool and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. (pause) The individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino 'smin. He's simply changing different body under different circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost. Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the garments. This is perfect theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when they think nicely, there's no reason why they don't accept it.
Prabhupāda: But they are not nice men. They are rascals. They're not even gentlemen. A gentleman will have some shyness, some shame. But they're shameless. They cannot answer properly, still, shamelessly, they claim they're scientists.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says: bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā. Avidyā means ass, no intelligence. He does not know what is life, what is the course of life, how things are going on. He does not know. The more he is increasing his unnecessary desires, he's making himself entangled. That he does not know. He has to take freedom from the repetition of birth and death, but he's becoming more and more entangled. Avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ. This is Bhāgavata. In one line, the whole material existence explained. This is literature. In one line, there is thousands years research work. In one line. Bhave 'smin. Now this bhave 'smin, you make research. Asmin, in this world, taking birth. So you have to learn so many things on these two words. How the living entities are taking birth in this world. Wherefrom he's coming, where he's going. What is his business. So many things in these two words. Bhave 'smin. Kliśyamānānām. Struggle for existence. Why? Avidyā. Ignorance. What is that avidyā? Kāma-karmabhiḥ.
Prabhupāda: By logic, by science. Anyway, that we have to make program. Because this is most misleading. The whole human society is affected by this misleading theory. We have to make program, go from place to place and invite all big men, all scientists. That program we have to make. We cannot allow this nonsense theory to go on. We must make something. Brahmānanda, how to make this? This is a fact, that, that life comes from life. In another sense life does not come. Life is existing. It is not exactly the word that life generates, no. Life is existing. The matter is generated. Matter is generating, and it stays for some time, again it is vanished. Just like this body. This body is born at a certain date, and it will be finished at a certain date. This is matter. (break) The wood was born at a certain date from the tree. It remains green for certain time. Then it is not green, dry. Then, after some time, it will be finished. Matter is not permanent. Matter is changing. Ṣaḍ-vikāra. Six kinds of changes, matter. Birth, then growing... Matter grows also. Just like the body has grown. It was very small, pea-like body in the beginning, and it grows. So birth, growth, maintenance for some time, then by-product. There are some by-products. And then dwindling, then finished. This is matter. But life has no such change. When the life is within the matter, it appears that it is taking birth or death. Life will come. One phase of this change, accept. And when it cannot be maintained anymore, just like this body, when it is too old it cannot maintain.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. The same thing, that the rabbits close the eyes. Yes. Monkeys. And when the monkeys face a tiger, immediately he closes his eyes and the tiger immediately attacks him. So it is like that. He cannot solve the problem—"All right, let it go on." And that is the position. Because our real problem is death. Nobody wants to die. So the scientist cannot give any relief from death. They are talking simply superficially. They cannot give any relief from death. But my real problem is death. I do not wish to die. I do not wish to become old man. What scientists can help me? I do not wish to become diseased. What the scientist can help me? I do not wish to take birth. These things, they cannot do anything. Major problem they have set aside. And they are, what is called, jackal. Yes. There is a story of the jackal. He became the king of the forest.
Karandhara: And one is known by the company he keeps.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The best friend will lead him to take birth in that family. He'll help him next birth because he'll always think of dog, so next birth, dog. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam (BG 8.6). At the time of death, if you are attached to something then you'll think of it, and next birth is that.
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one's life is achieved by one's consciousness, how is it one cannot remember one's previous life?
Prabhupāda: Do you remember everything what you did last year or yesterday?
Paramahaṁsa: No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: So that is your nature. You forget.
Prabhupāda: Tad apy aphalatāṁ jātaṁ. Teṣām ātmābhimān..., bālakānām anāśritya govinda-caraṇa-dvayam.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. "The human form of life becomes spoiled for those..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Who do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply he dies like animal." That's all. Just like the cats and dogs, they also take birth. They eat, sleep, and beget children, and die. The human life is like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jāta means the species?
Prabhupāda: Jāta. Jāta means born. Aphalatāṁ jātam. Jāta means it becomes futile. Futile. The human form of life becomes futile if he does not accept govinda-caraṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. If he's not convinced that "I worship the original Personality of Godhead Govinda," then he's spoiled. That's all. His life is spoiled.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ātmābhimāninām means the...
Prabhupāda: Ātmā, dehātmā-māninām. "I am this body."
Prabhupāda: That's very nice.
David Wynne: She said, ah, "What a relief to be able to pass all responsibility to Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that one has to learn, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. The sentiment is very nice. It is just fitting from the royal... Because she's after all favored, she has taken birth in the royal family, so she is not ordinary woman. And her intelligence must be extraordinary. So she has remarked like that, what is that exact word?
David Wynne: I think the exact word... She said "How marvelous to be able to give all responsibility to Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is ready.
David Wynne: Yes. And she said...
Prabhupāda: But the thing is from our side Kṛṣṇa expects something.
David Wynne: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not a dead stone. Reciprocal. If you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa takes full responsibility. If you keep some reservation, Kṛṣṇa also keep reservation.
Prabhupāda: Simple life, simple life, innocent life... Because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivṛtta-tarṣair... There is another verse quoted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana, those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead... Pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. On the other side of this material world. For him... Viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca, hā hanta hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicidal. So material things, viṣaya, simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is material activity.
Prabhupāda: And ignorance. If we give service in ignorance, without knowing what is what, that kind of service may lead us to become punished. So we must know what kind of service we shall give. So real suffering of the society, human society, or any society you take, real suffering is, because the living entity has forgotten God, so he is being punished in different way by the material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So many ways. But everyone is being punished. At least, the three kinds... Why three kinds? That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, that this is also punishment, repetition of birth and death. This is also punishment. Because we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We are spirit soul, we are eternal. So our, this constant change of body, birth and death, that is also punishment. Because nobody wants to die. Because he is eternal. How he'll like to die? He wants to keep his eternal position, but he, because he's criminal... Just like one man is condemned to die, murderer. So he has to die. But he wants to protect himself, placing himself in the court, "How to save? How to save?" So that is our natural tendency, that we do not want to die. Why? Because we are eternal. We have got the prerogative. So if... Anyone does not want to die. Anyone does not want to take birth even. Now we have forgotten. Otherwise, in the womb of the mother, everyone knows that we are kept in such a way, in a packed, compact water bag, without any facility to move, not only for one day, two day, but ten months. Medical science knows, everyone knows. And at that time there are worms in the womb of the mother. They're taking the advantage, delicate skin. They also bite. And he cannot make any protest. He moves sometimes. The child moves. These are the sufferings. But we do not take care. If I have to take birth again, then I have to go, again enter into the womb of the mother, and, to develop my body and in such precarious condition, the body will develop. So there is suffering.
So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principles? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says,
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected. It doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor... So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore we expect.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2):
- ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ
- punar āvartino 'rjuna
- mām upetya tu kaunteya
- punar janma na vidyate
- (BG 8.16)
"From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."
Prabhupāda: This is a, this is a fact. That, that people are going to the higher planetary system, that is already known. Not this process, but there is another process, how you can graduate there. So, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ. And even if you go to the highest planetary system, Brahmā-loka, where people live for millions and millions of years... Brahmā's one day, twelve hours, you cannot calculate. It is so big number of years. So Kṛṣṇa says that if you do go to the Brahmā-loka, still you have to come. Simply your suffering will be stopped, mām upetya tu kaunteya, duḥkhālayam.
Prabhupāda: Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). It is almost Sanskrit. "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in the land of Bhāratavarṣa," janma sārthaka kari, "making his life successful," kara para-upakāra. Para-upakāra. Para-upakāra means everyone is in slumber and considering himself that he is body, like cats and dogs. Therefore, they should be raised to the spiritual consciousness that "You are not cats and dogs. You are Brahman." Just realize "ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This is para-upakāra. So we are doing that. We are awakening everyone. Uttiṣṭhataḥ jāgrataḥ prāpta-varaṁ nibodhata: "You have got now human being form of life. Now get up and make your life successful by spiritual realization." This is our message. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. By spiritual realization everyone will become happy. Without spiritual realization, nobody can become happy. This is our mission.
Pradyumna:
- yānti deva-vratā devān
- pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
- bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
- yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām.
- (BG 9.25)
"Those who worship the demigods will take birth amongst the demigods."
Prabhupāda: Higher planetary system of demigods, yes.
Pradyumna: "Those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth amongst such beings. Those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors. And those who worship Me will live with Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we can transfer to any form of body. Simply you have to prepare. But if we remain in our original body then you go back to home, back to Godhead.
Graham Hill: How do we attain our spiritual body?
Prabhupāda: You have got already spiritual body.
Graham Hill: (indistinct) at home he is very active.
Prabhupāda: Yes, ...that's nice. Yes. So he sometimes becomes disobedient? Sometimes? Eh? Why? (laughs) That means you have got independence. Is it not? Yes. That means he has got independence. Yes. This is a fact. Similarly we are sons of God, we have got little independence. We may remain with God, we may give up His company and come here to find our own fortune. And to find our own fortune we are becoming implicated and taking birth in different species of life. That is our ignorance. You are obedient to your mother?
Girl: Sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes, not always.
Girl: Yes.
Prabhupāda: She is the youngest? Ah, therefore she must be disobedient. (laughter) Daughter is eldest? This daughter? Oh. You are obedient?
Girl: Sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes? Not always? (laughs) All right. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich, vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: (BG 4.9) You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets.
Guest (1) (Indian man): Lord Brahmā also prays for to be born into Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes yes. Because he will try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even Lord Brahmā could not understand Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) No. (Hindi) Therefore, to understand Kṛṣṇa he desired to take birth in Vṛndāvana.
- manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
- kaścid yatati siddhaye
- yatatām api siddhānāṁ
- kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
- (BG 7.3)
Out of many millions of persons, they try to understand what is the perfection of life, and out of many such millions of persons who are in the line of understanding perfection of life, some of them or some one may understand Kṛṣṇa. Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now here is the perfectional stage. Now what is the translation?
Śrutakīrti: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place, but one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."
Prabhupāda: So as soon as you have to take birth, you have to die. Just like Aurobindo took birth; he died. Everyone. Everyone, even Brahmā. It may be a long duration or a small duration. That doesn't matter. Everyone. That is the perfectional knowledge, how to solve this birth and death problem. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). As soon as we are under these clutches of birth and death, old age and disease, we are imperfect. We are imperfect. Whatever I may be, you may be, but if I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, then I am imperfect. Therefore the perfectional, perfection of life is when you haven't got to take birth or die or become diseased and old. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we forbid to take to the karmī's life. Because at the time of death, if he remains a karmī, then he'll have to take birth as a karmī. That is the risk. So this regulated life, holding class, chanting, that will not make us fall down. That is essential. It is essential, regulate, to follow the regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds, holding class. You can do anything, but this will keep us alive to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. If you neglect that, then that is very risky. Even if you get next life birth in a rich man's family, that is not guarantee. Because generally, rich man's sons, they go astray. They get money for nothing and they want to squander it. And material world, if you have got money, so many bad associates will come and help you to squander your money and spoil your life. Because you have got money, then so many friends will come. As soon as you have no money, nobody will come. Even your wife, children will not come. Therefore hariṣye tad dhanaṁ śanaiḥ. Kṛṣṇa, first of all, takes away the money, makes him poor so that everyone will neglect him, and because he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, he'll take Kṛṣṇa, "Sir, I have no other alternative. Please give me protection." That is also another Kṛṣṇa's policy, special favor, that "This man wanted Me. Now he's going astray. All right. That's all right.
Prabhupāda: They must be jealous because if simply by taking birth in a brāhmaṇa family he can become brāhmaṇa and if somebody protests then he, he becomes jealous... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Wolfe: ...quite an invalid today.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I do not...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He had rheumatic pain, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Passerby: ...arthritic pain and I was bad in my leg today and I thought better not to go.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Guest (1): Yes, that is Candrakant. In Calcutta, no?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Yes, there is also my student. (break) Now the government is so irresponsible. Just like in Nairobi, I was refused permission. You see. We spent so much money, and they did not inform before. And when I was on the airport... That also, no written order. They said, "From higher authorities it is the order that you cannot enter." Just see. Kenya. So at the present moment we have got many enemies of this movement. (Hindi) "You are converting these European and American into brāhmaṇa. How they can become brāhmaṇa without taking birth as brāhmaṇa?" (Hindi)
Guest (1): You have done quite a lot. (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here also they go to parties. Where they go here?
Jayatīrtha: To downtown Los Angeles and Hollywood.
Prabhupāda: In New York, everywhere, every town, our men go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and sells books. That's it. (break) ...order. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Whomever you meet, you just deliver the instruction of Kṛṣṇa to him. That's all. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). (break) (Hindi) They have got a cultural department, but not for helping this. And then... (Hindi) This is my position. Just see. (Hindi) That is the śāstric injunction. Kīrtana means about Viṣṇu. But these Ramakrishna men will say, "Why not Kālī?"
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Then why he should not become dog? Become yaṁ yaṁ vāpi... He has great love for dog, and it is said that yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajati (BG 8.6), at the time of death, he will think of dog and he will become dog. This is...
Yaśodānandana: One time I asked one Indian man, "Why is it that people beat the dogs in India?" He says, "Because the English people were ruling for so long. Now they have taken birth as dogs. We beat them."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America taking care of the dogs and cats is a very big business. It's a very big business.
Karandhara: They even have cemeteries.
Candanācārya: They buy ten thousand dollar necklace for their dog.
Prabhupāda: Just see how much attracted.
Candanācārya: Yes, when they die, they leave all their money to the dog.
Prabhupāda: So why they refuse to become a dog? Why they refuse to become a dog?
Karandhara: Some of them would like to become.
Prabhupāda: So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod-Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is so much flood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their, the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws, and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas, that is there.
Prabhupāda: And, and the result of sukṛti, piety, is janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī (SB 1.8.26). Janma, to take birth, to take birth in nice family. And aiśvarya, riches. And... Janmaiśvarya-śruta, education, and śrī, beauty. All these four things are in America. There every boy, every girl is nicely educated, qualified, artist.
Dr. Patel: That last hundred years' generation of America, very honest people.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Dr. Patel: Extremely honest and extremely righteous. That is why the generation is good. This last hundred years...
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) Any intelligent man will say like that. I said... When they fought so much for Hindi language, I said that "Why not Sanskrit?"
Dr. Patel: If you make Sanskrit a compulsory language, forced (?) language, the effort that you put up to... (break)
Prabhupāda: "...both you and Me, we have changed so many times, taken birth. But you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." Why this difference?
Dr. Patel: Because God has got the same body throughout in all the avatāras, while you change your body. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata (BG 7.27). By, at that time... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...if God does not change His body, why these rascals consider Kṛṣṇa as human being?
Dr. Patel: Who considers?
Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas.
Dr. Patel: I am a mūḍha. (laughter) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. You are not mūḍha, but if you think Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: You sometimes call me a very intelligent man and other times you call me a dud. Now who am I? I forget myself. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). The so-called, the so-called big, big leaders, big, big philosophers, and big, big scholars, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being or "There was no Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much mūḍha they are.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata it is recommended. In the Bhāgavata it is recommended, that when Kṛṣṇa is asking for Devī to go take birth in the womb of Yaśodā, Kṛṣṇa is inducing that He'll get so many sacrifices. Yes. So that is the (Sanskrit), animal sacrifice.
Indian man (4): Therefore (Sanskrit) ah? Vairāgyam neyem aprti śrī kṛṣṇa...(?) He is recommending the fools, the fools who have got no...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) advised to the fools, why the Vedas cannot?
Indian man (4): Vedas they have advised to the fools to (indistinct). But he has advised another fools not to eat it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you worship Devī, you have to sacrifice goat, then what you will do?
Indian man (4): No, no. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: Where this... (break) (kīrtana begins) (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Girirāja: ...being killed by Viṣṇu in his previous life he wasn't transferred?
Prabhupāda: No, three times he had to take birth. Hiraṇyākṣa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is that Jaya and Vijaya?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: He was one of them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...becomes envious of others, they take birth as dogs, snake, sarpa krūra khala krūra. So much subtle laws are working. They do not know.
Yaśomatīnandana: Their limited intelligence.
Prabhupāda: Limited intelligence, yes. (break)
Yaśomatīnandana: ...nirmatsarāṇām.
Prabhupāda: Ah, paramo nirmatsarāṇām satāṁ vāstavya vastu vedyam atra (SB 1.1.2). Not for anyone. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. That means devotees. Devotees are nirmatsarā, not envious. Otherwise everyone is envious. (break) ...like a vehicle like this. In U.P. there is, called tanga.
Prabhupāda: ...yogic practice. So to save oneself from the influence of material laws. (break)
Girirāja: "...executed all religious principles. In this way you were able to cleanse your heart and control the influence of material law. In executing your austerities you used to eat only the leaves of the trees which fell to the ground." (break) ...takes birth in other planets are the same Devakī and Vasudeva, His parents?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Girirāja: Then how is it that after they gave birth to Kṛṣṇa this time they went back to Godhead?
Prabhupāda: What is the objection?
Girirāja: Well, according to the usual way of thinking, we think that if somebody if... Well, that doesn't apply in this case. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the universe, Kṛṣṇa may have another devotee like them. If there is another universe, why not another couple? There is everything another. Because we are limited, we want to make Kṛṣṇa always limited. How it can be? We should always remember Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable omnipotency. (break) ...know how many thousands of couple are there because Kṛṣṇa's, that birth is going on every moment. Therefore it is called nitya-līlā, in this universe immediately born, that that birth, that pastime, is again immediately manifested in another universe. He has grown old two days; so the same form again in another universe. The same example. Just like 6:30 AM on the sun, solar calculation, immediately in another country, 6:30 AM. Is it not?
Mahāṁsa: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologists, they read. Because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cid. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, he has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Kṛṣṇa.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things.
O'Grady: Hm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth...
O'Grady: Never takes bath?
Yogeśvara: Birth.
O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in gentle conversation.
Prabhupāda: Actually... Just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman, I am Englishman, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian,"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations.
Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.
French Woman: You cannot... We accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word.
Prabhupāda: No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. (French)
French Woman: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith.
Yogeśvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. (French)
Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit?
French Woman: No, I don't understand it by hearing it. You have to read it.
Prabhupāda: Na hanyate, does not die, hanyamāne śarīre, apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facility to the human being and not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. National means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of nationalism. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all, everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that "I am this body." But when we understand that "I am not this body; I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self-realization.
Satsvarūpa: Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ: (BG 8.16) "From the highest planet down to the lowest, all are places of suffering where birth and death take place."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Just from distance, not so near. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Duḥkha. Duḥkha means suffering. Ālayam. Ālayam means place. So the creator of this universe, the Supreme Lord, He is saying, "This is a place for suffering." And it is called Mṛtyu-loka, "For death, the planets for dying." That means death is unnatural to the eternal soul. But anywhere you live within this material world, you will die. That is material world. Either you live as a Brahmā or live as a small insect, ant, you must die. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate: (BG 8.19) death and again take birth, death and again take birth. But these rascals, they do not know: "This is natural, that's all." That one can stop this death and birth, they have no knowledge. And still, they are big, big scholars. They do not know that this movement is for stopping birth and death. Do they understand this?
Haṁsadūta: No.
Prabhupāda: They cannot believe it. They have no so brain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's benefited from the consciousness of the master.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So... If the master is devotee, then he's benefited. Kīṭa janma hau yathā tuwā dāsa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings that "Let me become a worm in the house of a devotee. If I have to take birth, I don't want a life, nondevotional life, even it is like Brahmā. I'll prefer to become a worm in the house of a devotee." This is the prayer of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Similarly, when we associate with a spiritual master who has Kṛṣṇa consciousness, automatically we also have some taste.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Students.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means enhancing spiritual taste. That is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). And as he increases his spiritual taste, he becomes (sic:) detestful to this material enjoyment. This is the taste.
Prabhupāda: Everyone.
- yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde
- nava-nava-rasa-dhāmany (udyataṁ) rantum āsīt
- tad-avadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne
- bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ ca
Yamunacarya, he was a great king. So his.... As king, his life was sex. But when he became a devotee, he admits, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde: "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne, "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ, "I taste that (indistinct)," suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ, (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct). Otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting noise)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is beginning. This is the proof, Yamunacarya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne. So not actually doing, simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting noise). What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata, hear Bhāgavata, rasa-līlā. They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā, then that lusty desires will be finished.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (5): Suppose he is reincarnated?
Prabhupāda: No, no, "dies" means the body dies. The soul does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). When the body annihilates... Body becomes old. Just like this cloth. I am using it, but when it will be old, no more useful, then I throw it away. I get another dress. This body is like that. Soul is eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. It does not die, it does not take birth, but because he is in material condition, therefore he has to change the material body because no material thing is permanent. Therefore the aim of life should be how to avoid this material body. That is real business. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. That is called athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is only business, how to stop acceptance of this material body. And that is very clearly and simply stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma karma me divyaṁ yo janāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). We can do that. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you are not going to accept any more material body. That means there is no more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more, and what is called, old age.
Tripurāri: Sometimes the devotees ask if they can take birth again distributing books for you.
Prabhupāda: Very good. That is real devotion. A devotee does not want to go to Vaikuṇṭha or any liberation. They are satisfied with the service. That is pure devotion. And distributing books for the benefit of going to Kṛṣṇa, that is selfishness. But "I want to simply distribute the books without any remuneration, without any my personal..." that is pure devotee. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja says that "I do not wish to go to Vaikuṇṭha unless I take all of these rascals with me." That is pure devotee. Pure devotion does not mean to... He is always under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. What is the use of going Vaikuṇṭha or...? Wherever he stays, that is Vaikuṇṭha. That is pure devotional service. Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī: (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4) "Life after life I may go on with this business. I don't want anything." That is pure devotion. (About cake:) So distribute.
Prabhupāda: It is my request that you are so many respectable Indian gentlemen here, and we are preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. You come forward. You learn more and join this mission. It is not meant for Mr. Attar; it is meant for everyone, especially for the Indians. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that also, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Bhārata-bhūmite means in the land of Bhāratavarṣa. Bhārata-bhūmi is considered puṇya-bhūmi. So you are fortunate that you have taken birth as human being in India. It is the result of much pious activities. Indians are naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now this gentleman, Mr. George, what is his name, full name?
Devotee (2): John(?) (Jordon?)
Prabhupāda: Oh. The Canadian ambassador. He came to see me. He saw me in Delhi when our function was going on. He was speaking; he was so surprised. So this movement has got good potency, and every one of you join.
Girl: India has the knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is born in India, he has got immediately this knowledge. He immediately knows there is God. That is the advantage of taking birth in India. What it will take hundreds of years to understand, they understand it by the birth. You have seen, so many thousands of people came. So the... Apart from this, the whole world, they do not believe that there is soul and after annihilation of this body, we shall get another body, another chapter of life. They do not believe it.
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: Then, she says, why do the philosophers not study in India?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Then again, the same question. Because they are rascals.
Prabhupāda: Ātmā's nature. One question should be understood, thoroughly. You have asked what is the nature of ātmā. The ātmā's nature is that he is eternal. He never dies. Never takes birth. He is already existing. Just like, you were a child, you were a baby. The body is no longer existing. Your childhood body is no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. You remember your childhood days. Therefore, you are different from the body. The body is passed away, but you remember that you had a body like that. Therefore you exist. You know that you'll become an old man. So this body will not exist. Another body you will get, old age body. Therefore you will exist; the body will change. Now try to understand this fact first of all, and if you cannot understand, ask questions.
Prabhupāda: It means they have no idea of the spiritual identity. Their idea is that matter is important. But they do not know that matter is not important, but the spirit is important. That is moving the matter. It is very easy to understrand. Because the spirit soul is within this body, it is moving. But they cannot understand-dull-headed. What is that force that is moving this body? That they do not consider to understand.
Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When people in the street hear Kṛṣṇa's name, the chanting, or they get some literature, does that mean they will not take birth as an animal?
Prabhupāda: No. They'll get birth in a good family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41). If they simply appreciate "It is very nice," then in the next life, human life is guaranteed. In a very nice family. Simply if he appreciates, "Yes, it is very nice"—that's all. Then he'll get another chance.
Amogha: Many people think the pictures are very nice.
Prabhupāda: Anything they say nice, that means it is guaranteed, next life. Or even in this life it will definitely help. As soon as he reads some pages, then it is guaranteed. Those who are enquiring, that means they are liking. Their life is guaranteed.
Prabhupāda: Waste time. Finding out opportunity how to waste valuable time. They do not know that every moment they are dying. Dying, death has begun since he, one takes birth. And our business is before dying we must be prepared for the next life. But they have no knowledge. That is ignorance, tamo-guṇa.
Devotee (1): So if we as devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are transcendental to these modes, does that mean that we can...
Prabhupāda: You are not transcendental. You are trying to be transcendental. You should always remember that "We are trying to be transcendental." When you are actually on transcendental state, you will not be affected by any modes of material nature. Therefore you should be very cautious and careful. Just like on the sea, you are in the boat. You are transcendental. But the boat may can merge into the water any moment unless you are very carefully plying it. At any moment.
Prabhupāda: Then he will suffer. He will constantly change his body one after another, sometimes good body, sometimes bad body, and he will suffer. So as soon as you accept a material body, you will suffer. It may be good body or bad body. It doesn't matter. Suffering is there. When a dog is taking birth, he has to take the suffering within the womb of his mother, and when a human man, human body is coming out, he has also to take the... It is not joke to remain ten months within the packed-up abdomen of the mother. Is it very pleasant, do you think? If you are kept in that way now, you will die within three seconds. In that condition you have to live ten months. So how much suffering it was!
Mother: Suffering for whom?
Prabhupāda: Suffering for the man who is taking birth. Sometimes now they are killing. The mother is killing. The time is coming so bad that mother is killing child.
Hari-śauri: So those persons who do not take even their material predicament seriously, then it is the same when they approach, they see our devotees. They do not take us seriously.
Prabhupāda: No, they are given chance. Even they fall down, they guaranteed best life in the next birth, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41), to take birth in devotee's or nice brāhmaṇa's house. So they get again chance. So our point should be why another chance? Finish this business in this life. That is determination. Why another chance? I may be misled again. That should be our determination. "Finish this business, this life. One life let me be strict in following the discipline and regulative principles." This is called tapasya, that "Although it is inconvenient, I must do it to solve my problems." That is determination, dṛḍha-vrata, firm determination.
Devotee (5): They have to come to the temple to be trained up?
Prabhupāda: Temple or no temple, you must be firmly determined. You can have God realization under this tree if you have got firm determination. Anywhere you can stay. But temple is the ordinary way, facility. If you are so, I mean to say, elevated, you may not come to temple, but ordinarily, for the neophytes, they must come to the temple. Why he does not come? Does he think that he has become very elevated? That is false. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was not going to the Jagannātha temple, but Jagannātha was coming to him. So if you are so strong like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, that is another thing. But if you falsely think or imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, then you go to hell. That's all. We should not falsely think that "Now I am advanced and elevated. I can do whatever I like."
Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Prabhupāda: Originally, originally, everything belongs to God. So why we are claiming, "It is my property"? Suppose you have come here. You sit down for one hour, two hours, and if you claim, "It is my property," is that very good judgement? You have come from outside, you are allowed to sit down here for two hours, and if you claim, "This is my property..." Similarly, we come here. We take birth either in America or in Australia or in India and remain for fifty, sixty or hundred years, and why shall I claim, "It is my property"?
Guest 3: You don't claim it, I suppose. If you own property, what happens, I would have thought, is more that for a time you have got possession.
Prabhupāda: For a time you have got possession of the chair—that does not mean your property.
Guest 3: But I suppose if somebody came and took the chair while I've got it in my possession, I'd be terribly upset about it.
Prabhupāda: No, that is a (indistinct) thing. Nobody will disturb you. You remain in your chair. (laughter) That does not mean because you have sat down on the chair for two hours, you become proprietor.
Prabhupāda: So there is stated, "If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you go back to home." Janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9). That is stated. If you simply understand how Kṛṣṇa takes birth, how He goes away, why does He come, what is His mission, these things, if you can understand, then you are a fit candidate to go back to home. So that is explained everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. You try to understand. Then you are guaranteed. Where is the difficulty? And if you think, "Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man like us," then finished. Then do not understand Kṛṣṇa. If you simply accept this word faithfully, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), "Everything is Kṛṣṇa," then your knowledge is perfect.
Śrutakīrti: ...talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dāsī, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that's possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they're not very strict Vaiṣṇavas there. So what is it...
Prabhupāda: The land is there.
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Land is... Just like this land, Vaiṣṇava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture but still the Vaiṣṇavas are there. Similarly, in India, no, there are many Vaiṣṇavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaiṣṇava.
Paramahaṁsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brāhmaṇa family?
Prabhupāda: No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41). This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: ...cow which is killed, that does not get immediately human life because he is untimely killed.
Ambarīṣa: Oh. So he takes birth as a cow again?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...finish his birth as cow, and who is killing, he becomes... He is stopping his progress, therefore he is punishable. Just like you have leased one apartment to live for so many years, and if somebody, by force, kicks out, then he is punishable. (break)
Devotee: ...Kamehameha Day, today?
Bali-mardana: Today is a Holiday. (break)
Prabhupāda: Here, for chanting? A good hall? (break)
Siddha-svarūpa: This is the buildings where all the... (break) They don't have any crocodiles here.
Paramahaṁsa: Is that a shark? That big fish... See that big fish, Prabhupāda? That big one on the wall? He is hanging?
Prabhupāda: Oh, he is dead?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, dead fish. That's a shark.
Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.
Prabhupāda: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.
Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...
Prabhupāda: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.
Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.
Prabhupāda: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.
Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.
Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.
Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. When one remembers that this world is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), is a place of misery, then we can go. As long as we shall think, "Oh, it is very nice place," we have to remain. Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, remain in this very nice place."
Brahmānanda: You gave the example yesterday of Lord Indra. When he took birth here as a hog, then he didn't want to leave. He thought it was nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he also thought it is a very nice place.
Kāśīrāma: Queen Kuntī was always praying that the calamities would happen again and again so that she would remember Kṛṣṇa. If the calamities are always happening in the material world, we will realize it is a terrible place to stay.
Prabhupāda: This is jñāna, knowledge. When one comes to this conclusion, "This is worthless," that is jñāna, knowledge. And so long one will think, "No, it is not always bad, sometimes very good," that is ignorance. (laughs)
Lt. Mozee: Again I say I mean no disrespect, but in India, where the religious customs have been followed for centuries upon centuries, we are seeing a, not a return, but we are seeing a drawing away. We are seeing a drawing away from the spiritual world and the spiritual life in today's society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is due to bad leadership. Otherwise, Indian mass of people, they are fully conscious of God and they try to follow the laws of God, the mass of people. Here even the big, big professor, they do not believe in God, they do not believe in next life. But India, even the poorest man, he knows that "There is God. There is next life. If I commit sinful life I will suffer. If I live piously, then I shall enjoy." Even the low-grade society, social man, he believes it. Still if there is some disagreement, the village people go to the temple for settlement, and the opposite parties will hesitate to speak lies before the temple, still. So in that respect India is still 80 percent religious, 80 percent religious. That is the special privilege of taking birth in India. That is a fact.
bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra,
- janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
Anyone who has taken birth in India, his business is to make his life perfect and distribute the knowledge all over the world.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but you are fallen. Who take birth in high family or in opulent, that is the fallen condition. That is not successful con... But they are taking, "This is success. I have got so much money. I have got so much prestige. This is success."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fallen condition.
Prabhupāda: That is fallen condition.
Devotee: They think that is the success of life.
Prabhupāda: They think. They are foolish. They can think like that. Generally, that is... Not that devotees are not opulent. No, that is not. But this materialistic opulence means fallen condition.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The demigods are in a very opulent position also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are devotees.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore a sannyāsī is always moving around, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vairāgya. That is required. That is civilization. Vairāgya and jñāna. Jñāna-vairāgya, knowledge and renunciation, or detachment, this is the goal of human life. Because he is attached to this material world, he has to take birth after birth, birth after birth. So to save this botheration, one has to be detached. This is the basic principle of Vedic civilization, jñāna-vairāgya. And detachment is possible when one is in full knowledge, jñāna. And this bhakti-yoga process is detachment. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). So it is a civilization of detachment, not attachment.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That detachment is a form of wealth for the renounced order.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the gain of human life. Arthadam. This is meaning. Artha means meaning. Arthadam. Durlābhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. This human life, form of life, is very, very rare. So one can say, "You will also die like cats and dog. How it is rare?" No, yes, adhruvam arthadam: "Although it is temporary, it will not stay, but you can have meaning of life." Adhruvam arthadam. Everything is there.
Guest: Do you think that this hinders with their development?
Prabhupāda: No. Spirit soul is the same thing either in wealthy man or poor man. The spirit soul is not different. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
If Yogananda thinks like that—"Only rich man is able to practice yoga"—that is wrong. A poor man can also practice yoga. Because yoga means connecting, linking up with the Supreme. So as spirit soul, everyone is fit to connect himself with the Supreme. That is the statement in the Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class self-realization, when one tries to connect himself with the Supreme. And the Supreme can be connected by anyone. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). According to Vedic philosophy, one becomes poor on account of his sinful activities. So pāpa-yoni... So although he has taken birth in a degraded family or poor family, spiritually he is pure. Simply one has to revive his spiritual consciousness. And that cannot be checked by any material condition. Ahaituky apratihatā. Spiritual self-realization cannot be checked by any material condition. So why? Rather, opulent condition is not favorable for practicing yoga. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Those who are too much attached to material enjoyment, they cannot practice yoga.
Prabhupāda: He cannot. He has all the duties. But one who has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any reservation, he has no duty. He has no respons...
- devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇaṁ pitṛṇaṁ
- nayam ṛṇī na kiṅkaro rājan
- sarvātmanā ye śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ
- gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kārtam
- (SB 11.5.41)
This is the statement. As soon as we take birth, we have got so many responsibilities. We are responsible to perform sacrifices for all the demigods. You are taking light from the sun. You have got responsibility. Otherwise how you are getting so much light? If you don't pay the electric bill, the next day it will be disconnected. And you are taking so much light from the sun. You have no responsibility? You have. "No, there is no responsibility. You are taking light, air, water. So many things you are taking, supplied by the different demigods. Deva, ṛṣi, ṛṣi, great... Just like Vyāsadeva or many other ṛṣis, they have given you knowledge, and you have no responsibility? You have responsibility.
Dr. Patel: He takes the body to fulfill His mission.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way. That is real understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as the Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa also accepts a material body... Therefore they are called Māyāvādī. They are called Māyāvādī because they think Kṛṣṇa's body is also māyā. Therefore they are known as Māyāvādīs.
Dr. Patel: He takes birth in divya-vigraha.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Their story is: "As soon as there is form, it is māyā." They cannot think beyond that in their own terms. Because we have got this form, material body, so their generalization is "As soon as Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, anyone, if He takes this form, then it is material." That is called māyā.
Dr. Patel: But He takes the form with the control over māyā. We take the form under control of māyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the controller of māyā. That they do not understand.
Dr. Patel: They don't understand what is divya-vigraha.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They understand slightly sac-cid-ānanda, but they cannot think of that sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Śāstra says īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). That they cannot understand, being less intelligent. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained, they cannot understand this. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇa aparādhī.
Guest (2): But the spiritual organizations in India, all the spiritual teachings in India, have always put great emphasis on the fact that we are spiritual beings. So what was the necessity of creating another movement to say the same things?
Prabhupāda: No. We are... You have brought in the question of India. We are talking of the human society, so why you are bringing India? We are not talking about India only. Human being does not mean only Indian. You see, human being—all, outside India, inside India, everywhere. Wherever there is human being, they require this education. And it is the India's duty. Because India has got the opportunity to be spiritually advanced by the grace of learned, saintly persons, so they should first of all make their life perfect by taking education and distribute the knowledge throughout the whole world. That is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that... The exact word is
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
Anyone who has taken birth in India as human being, he should first of all make his life perfect and... (break) ...no customer is coming, we go to sell our books.
Prabhupāda: We are in the material world means everyone is diseased. (break) māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ, duṣkṛtinaḥ (BG 7.15). This is described. This is the material disease. I explained how they are committing sinful life: slaughterhouse, this liquor house and so many things, simply sinful. And they do not know they are going to suffer again in another body. He's going to be slaughtered next life. "Life for life." You are taking life, so many lives; you have to give so many times life. Take birth and become killed. Take birth and become killed." There is no knowledge.
Indian man (4): Swamijī, it has been said just as we act... We take birth according to our action. So if we have done something we must take birth according to the law of God.
Prabhupāda: You must take birth. That is a fact. You cannot avoid it. But according to your karma you have to take birth.
Indian man (4): This means that you pay what you have wrote. Yes, eh? Therefore do you think that...
Prabhupāda: Suppose when your, this shirt is torn, you have to purchase one shirt. Now, that shirt you have to purchase according to your price. If you have good price, then you get a good shirt. If you have no money, then you get a bad shirt. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Hellish planet.
Indian: ...hemisphere or it take birth immediately afterwards?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are sinful, they do not take immediately birth. They first of all trained up in the hellish planet how to suffer to become accustomed and then they are taken birth, then suffer. Just like you pass I.A.S. Then you become an assistant to the magistrate. You learn. Then you are posted as magistrate. Even if you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead, you are first of all transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is now present, and there you become accustomed. Then you go to real Vṛndāvana.
Indian man (4): Therefore, after our death...
Prabhupāda: Every arrangement by God is perfect. Pūrṇam. Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam.. (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Whatever is created by God, that is perfect.
Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not... You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals.
Harikeśa: But they say the child in the womb is not living. They say it's not life yet. Only after it takes birth.
Prabhupāda: That is said by you. You, the tenth-class rascal, you say like that. No sane man says like that. Because you are a tenth-class rascal—you have no knowledge—you say like that. They are... The so-called scientists, they are tenth-class rascals.
Harikeśa: Until the child is moving there is no life.
Prabhupāda: Moving, it is not moving?
Harikeśa: No. It doesn't move until after seven months.
Prabhupāda: Then why the dead child cannot move, rascal?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's developing, it's growing. That's moving also.
Prabhupāda: No, no, if moving is not there, then the dead child is also not moving. Why he is not moving again?
Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim (SB 1.5.17). This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Jñāna-vairāgyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jñāna. If one is not disgusted—he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die—then where is jñāna? There is no jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples said, ara nare bak. Ara nare bak. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad-gītā,
- daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayi
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taran...
- (BG 7.14)
- This is the way. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Deductive reason is possible. Kṛṣṇa says that na jāyate na mriyate vā. This is deductive: you hear from Kṛṣṇa, and this is fact. And if you want to make research, how that living entity never takes birth, then it will take time and at the same it may not be perfect.
Harikeśa: I finally understood why you were always talking to Svarūpa Dāmodara about inductive and deductive reasoning.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: Because it's just not possible to go the other way.
Prabhupāda: By inductive reason you cannot reach the truth perfectly.
Harikeśa: Because it's beyond the material creation and you have to use the material senses and mind to understand. It's not possible.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, our point is deductive. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Hah, yes. Everyone is trying to get more, and nature's order is that you take only to maintain your body and soul together. That's all. If you take more, then you are thief, you'll be punished by the laws of nature. This is going on. Laws of nature are so fine that by material activities you'll never be satisfied, and at the time of death, he'll lament that "I could not satisfy my desires. Let me take..." "All right, take another body. Satisfy." This is nature's punishment. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Simple things. We desire, and nature will give you another body. māyā-yantrārūḍhāni. He'll give you, "Ride on this car, you wanted, on this body." And this... This is creation of māyā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is there, orders māyā, "He wants to enjoy life. Give him this body." "Come on, here is a hog's body, eat nicely, stool. Come on." He did not like to eat prasādam. He wanted something rubbish. "All right, come here. Take this stool." These things are going automatically. The same way, as you infect some disease, immediately the disease is there. You haven't got to manufacture diseases. Because you have infected yourself with the disease germ, "Take this disease." Therefore it is warned, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), "Don't desire anything except Kṛṣṇa's service." Then you are immune. Otherwise you have to take birth. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they take the Absolute Truth void, so they have no good desires, again they come to material desires.
Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness.... That I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Carol Jarvis: Insurance for what?
Prabhupāda: No more.... No more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness?
Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...by taking birth of any, whether the tree is taking birth or the ant is taking birth and the fish is taking birth. Everywhere, living entities, they are taking birth, that's all. And they are dying also. And between birth and death there is disease and old age. So during birth one cannot understand, because there is unconscious stage. So even the fetus is killed, it cannot under..., because fully unconscious stage. And there is life undoubtedly; otherwise how the fetus all of a sudden gets life? But these mūḍhas cannot see it. Here in this matter there is no life; therefore many thousands of years, if you kill, it will never show any symptom of life. But if there is life, at a time it will come to consciousness. Just like fainted man is lying like a dead man, but he is not dead. There is life. It is fainted, unconscious state. So because there is life, he may lie down in that unconscious state for two, three hours; again he'll come. It is common sense. And if a log, wood log, is lying flat, will it come to life, anything? But because these mūḍhas, they are taking that "Fetus has no life. Kill it, finish it and eat it." It is going on. You know that?
Prabhupāda: So this movement should be pushed very vigorously. And so far, we have become successful. And enemies will be always, as soon as there is something good. That is the way of material world. Even Kṛṣṇa had enemies, what to speak of us. Eh? So many enemies, but He was powerful; He killed all them. Nobody could kill Him, but there was attempt to kill Him from the very beginning of His birth. He had so many enemies. As soon as Kaṁsa heard that his sister is now newly married, but as soon as there was some foretelling, "Ah, you are taking care of your sister so nicely. The eighth child of this sister will kill you." "Oh, where is your child? Where is pregnancy?" Nothing. He became angry. "So why wait for eighth child? Kill my sister." Long, long before taking birth of Kṛṣṇa, the mother was to be killed. This is the position of this material world. So he became so bad that "My sister..." He did not consider that "She is my sister, and she is just newly married. Where is pregnancy? Where is child? And that is the eighth child, and what will happen after that?" No consideration. Immediately, "Kill him, kill her." This is the position. So we are instructing: no intoxication. So those who are flourishing by selling cigarettes and wine and liquor, they do not... "Immediately kill him." Oh, yes, in this way. "If they, the movement goes and becomes very strong, then our business will be lost. Kill him." So naturally they will be enemies. The same thing, the Kaṁsa saw that "This my sister, now she is married. So although it will take some long time, but here is the cause." So they are thinking like that. No meat-eating, then all slaughterhouses will be closed: "They're enemy." Although there is no such symptom that slaughterhouse is going to be closed, but they'll think like that. They'll think like that, the same way. There is no ex... (break) ...pregnancy, first, second, third, then eighth, and the child will go, take birth and... They are thinking like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So long we'll have material desires, we'll have to accept a material body and fulfill the desires.
Mahendra: Sometimes, although a devotee understands that he must take birth again if he does not, if he is not strict, he thinks, "Oh, it is so difficult to be strict. Maybe I'll just take it easy and remain engaged in devotional service, then I'll take another birth as a devotee and maybe next time I'll finish up my business."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. He gets good opportunity of material enjoyment, and then take birth in good family, aristocratic or brāhmaṇa. Then where he ended in last life, he begins again. There is a verse: paurva-dehikam. Paurva-dehikam means previous birth.
Mahendra: It seems, though, that in that respect, he's gambling.
Prabhupāda: Gambling?
Mahendra: Yes, he's gambling, that he's thinking that "Oh, next life I will come back in a better condition," but his next might be different.
Prabhupāda: Why should he desire like that? That means he has not understood what is meant by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Disturbance means sinful atmosphere.
Rāmeśvara: In Bhāgavatam, you wrote that when there is a great storm or hurricane, some demon has taken birth.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also that it is the king's responsibility to see that there is good weather. If there's good government then automatically...
Prabhupāda: Everything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These buildings are churches, but they're all closed. But our churches are lively, even at four in the morning.
Prabhupāda: From four o'clock up to ten.
Candanācārya: Some devotees are saying that cockroaches are coming from the vapors of impure things.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they come. That is called sveda-ja. Just like from perspiration, bugs are coming out. Sveda-ja.
Rādhāvallabha: So isn't that life coming from matter?
Prabhupāda: Not matter. From matter is not coming, but they are taking birth.
Hari-śauri: That's the atmosphere that they get born into.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rādhāvallabha: So are they coming from eggs, or how are they coming? Just the soul enters the dirt?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like it is a suitable circumstance from which the living entity makes his body.
Rādhāvallabha: But how has the cockroach been formed?
Prabhupāda: Just like embryo. The living entity comes of the two secretions of father and mother emulsified. It creates a situation so that he can stay there and develop a body.
Prabhupāda: That is Yamarāja is.... We are reading the Yamarāja incident(?). That's all.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like how can a living entity take birth in the fire?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is that how can an entity take birth in perspiration? His question. So how can a living entity take birth in the fire? Mostly our experience is that entities are taking birth from the earth, but according to the understanding...
Prabhupāda: So how the fishes are born in the water? How the other living entities, they remain in the air? Or without air? There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air.... Anywhere, the living entities can take birth. Sarva-ga. Sthāṇur sarva-gataḥ acalo 'yam. You read all these words of Bhagavad-gītā. Sarva-ga. From anywhere, he can take birth.
Devotee: Do the living entities who are born from perspiration require a mother and father?
Prabhupāda: No. No. There is mother. That perspiration is mother.
Prabhupāda: But material, that is temporary. This body, your body, my body, anyone's body, that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting, we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body.... Just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking.
Prabhupāda: The problem is that we are suffering in this material world life after life, and our aim is how to again go back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are showing some mysticism. Stop death. Then I shall see your mysticism. What is this nonsense mysticism? Can you stop death? Is it possible? Then what is the meaning of this mysticism? All bogus. My problem is that I am accepting one body and suffering, because as soon as I get this material body, I have to suffer. Then I am creating another body. I die. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). And again begins another chapter. In this way, from this grass life to the demigods, I am simply changing body and dying and taking birth. This is my problem. So what mysticism will do? But that they do not know, what is the problem. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is your problem. You are repeatedly taking birth and dying, and so long you are living there are so many troubles. Jarā-vyādhi. Especially old age and disease. So this is the problem. What mysticism will help you? Will the mysticism stop your birth, death, old age and disease? Then that is mysticism. Otherwise, what is the use of such nonsense things. (break) ...misleading from the real path. They do not know what is the aim of life, what is the problem of life. They create some mysticism, and some rascal people are after them. That's all. "Here is mystic."
Prabhupāda: Oh, (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Motilal. (converses in Hindi) That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). These things are unknown in the Western countries. So anyone who has taken birth in India, Bhārata-varṣa, they should make his..., one should make his life perfect by assimilating all these śāstras and preach the resultant action to the outsiders. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission-pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) So you Indians, you are here, you assimilate the teachings of Gītā, Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and help these people. That is India's business.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they have taken birth in India.
Hari-śauri: Is that special mercy that they seem to be impoverished?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari-śauri: Is that special arrangement that they seem to be impoverished? Say like the villagers, they're not very wealthy, or, uh...
Prabhupāda: That is due to misgovernment. There is no king; all rogues and thieves are in the government. Mismanagement. It is the government duty to see that everyone is doing nicely so that they can live peacefully, happily. There must be direction. Just like parentless children. Nobody is to take care; they'll be wretched. So India's position is like that. The parentless children. There is no good government. And they supply this control wheat that is not even touchable. Unfit for human consumption. There is a worm...
Prabhupāda: Now suppose these electric lights. So, crude form of light, we grow some castor seed, everything from the earth. This also you are getting from earth, petroleum, and running on machine, and electricity is generated. But really you are getting the impetus from the earth. As soon as the petroleum supply is stopped, everything stopped. But for this purpose you have to search out petroleum from the middle of ocean, boring. Therefore it is ugra-karma. The purpose is that you grow some castor seed, press it, get oil, put in any pot, and one wick, the light is there. So even understanding that you have improved the lighting system, but that is not the only necessity of my life. But to improve from the castor seed lamp, castor oil lamp, to this electricity, you have to work so hard. You have to go to the middle of ocean and drill it and get out petroleum and... In this way your real business of life is finished. The energy and the intelligence you got for your self-realization or your, this precarious position, constantly dying and taking birth in various species of life, this is your problem, and this was to be solved in human life, you have got advanced intelligence, but that intelligence is utilized from castor seed lamp to the electric lamp. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we will do. Yes.
Rādhāvallabha: This is the story of King Indradyumna, when Agastya Muni cursed him to take birth as an elephant.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rādhāvallabha: When King Indradyumna was meditating and Agastya Muni came, and so he cursed him to take birth as an elephant.
Prabhupāda: He became an elephant.
Rādhāvallabha: Yes, Gajendra. So the artists want to know if it is okay to show him outside in front of a cottage like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good.
Rādhāvallabha: So should they be in the ocean, or should they be on the shore with Lord Śiva?
Prabhupāda: Yes, round about. Yes. Why he's there? It is all right. Give them here.
Rādhāvallabha: Okay. So they are on the land. And then there is one more picture. When the goddess of fortune took birth from the milk ocean, they installed her on the throne, and the personified rivers came and personified clouds. So this would be Lord Brahmā, this would be the personified rivers and different personalities. So the ocean actually is not visible, just the actual installation area.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. So?
Rādhāvallabha: That's all that they want to know. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. When everything do with devotion, it will come out correct.
Rādhāvallabha: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: We have got our testing tubes in Bhagavad-gītā. Who was speaking that "If God is talking, what is use of spiritual master," yesterday?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that was a...
Prabhupāda: "God will talk with anyone."
Prabhupāda: It is every man that this is the position. This is the position. And so long we will be charmed with these things, he has to take birth again and again. Viṣayināṁ saṁdarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca.
Vipina: This is the property, Prabhupāda. Excuse me. This is your home, and the devotees are here for you. (inside)
Hari-śauri: I can lock it now if you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Vṛṣākapi: Would you like some warm milk, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No.
Rūpānuga: This is for your servants. Push the button, they hear in the back.
Vipina: Cold water for you too, Prabhupāda. Cold water here if you want some.
Prabhupāda: Cold water.
Rūpānuga: But anyway, in nine months, it is done, not millions of years.
Prabhupāda: Not nine months, seven months. Seven months the consciousness returns back and the child wants to come out. Therefore it moves, it feels inconvenient. And if he's pious, he then prays to God, "Kindly save me from this condition. Now taking birth, I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make myself free from this bondage."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The most remarkable thing is these so-called scientists, is that they believe in the most unscientific statement. Like this long time period (Prabhupāda laughs) is the most unscientific. So how can they claim as scientists?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already said. We see practically within five days, within seven days, the life is manifest, and these rascals say millions of years, which he'll never see, neither I'll see. And we have to accept such theory. Before seeing that life system, his life will be finished and the student also will be finished. And who is going to see?
Prabhupāda: Answer him.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, the question is that do people who have such types of low-grade desires take birth in the Kali-yuga. So the question is that, naturally, yes, everyone is taking birth according to their karma. But we can change our destiny by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like if a sick man is offered medicine, so if he takes medicine, then he can become cured from his disease. Similarly, Kali-yuga means very high temperature, and the medicine is there in the form of the holy name, harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). So we have to take advantage. Otherwise everyone in Kali-yuga is condemned.
Prabhupāda: Have we not published that "You have created 747. All right, take credit. But you cannot make a mosquito with pilot. Can you?" "No." "So why..., how can you defy the supreme creator?" We are taking it, there is supreme creator.
Prabhupāda: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement... Sometimes we arrange Hare Kṛṣṇa festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kīrtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bhārata-bhūmi, anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that... What they have said?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress.
Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that is there some formula, that if you kill one animal or one thing then you get killed in the exact same ratio? You kill one thing, you get killed once. So in other words, if you are responsible for killing hundreds and hundreds of animals throughout your lifetime, does one have to take birth hundreds and hundreds of times and be killed?
Prabhupāda: Yes. For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable.
Vṛṣākapi: This is Mr., ah, what's your name?
Mr. Boyd: Boyd.
Vṛṣākapi: Mr. Boyd. His daughter is a devotee in Germany.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Mr. Boyd: Barbara. I had the privilege of going to India a month ago and bringing her home, and I met two of your...
Prabhupāda: She is in India?
Mr. Boyd: Yes, she was at Vṛndāvana, and she'd been there for about three months.
Prabhupāda: Demigod means just like you or me, ordinary living being, but they are very pious. On account of their piety they have got very good post. Just like janma... There are four: to get birth in very high, aristocratic family; to become very learned scholar; to become beautiful in bodily feature. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī (SB 1.8.26): high parentage, birth, to take birth in aristocratic family, in brāhmaṇa family, or very exalted royal family. This is janma. And śruta, to become very learned scholar. Janma, aiśvarya, to become very rich. Janmaiśvarya-śruta, śruta means education, and śrī, bodily beauty. These things are obtained on account of piety, pious activities. And just the opposite, low-class family, lowborn, no money, always poverty-stricken, no education, no bodily beauty, these are the results of impious activities. So the demigods means on account of their pious activities they get the situation in higher planet where the duration of life is ten thousands of years, and their one day is equal to our six months.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall keep it dusty. If our heart is full of dust, cleanse it. That is intelligence. What is this, "My heart is dirty, let it be kept as dirty"? No, if it is dirty, cleanse it. It is the duty of every Indian to understand Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to others. That is real Indian business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every one of you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to others who are unaware of Kṛṣṇa. That is the injunction; that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Anyone who has taken birth in India as a human being—not as dogs manuṣya, manuṣya means human—his duty is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and preach to the other people for welfare activities. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). We should mark this point, manuṣya-janma. He's not requesting the cats and dogs. So in other words, that those who are not taking, Indians... Bhagavad-gītā is known to everyone, every Indian knows.
Prabhupāda: Future means he'll have to come back again, either in the same family or in the dog's family, dog's life. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). In this way, he'll take birth and die. Yes.
Rādhāvallabha: You were saying they take rest for seven months and wake up a dog.
Prabhupāda: Maybe dog or maybe somebody else; that doesn't matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the last, about three years ago or so, there is a new branch of study, it is called biomedical ethics, that deals with the symptom of death: How can one define when a person dies? What are the symptoms? and How can we judge that this man is dead? It is a great controversy in medical science.
Bali-mardana: They went to the Supreme Court to question when does death occur.
Prabhupāda: So what Supreme Court will decide? (laughter) What you nonsense judge know? He's also as good a rascal as the person who put the question.
Prabhupāda: So many children are coming, very fortunate children, from the beginning Kṛṣṇa conscious. We had the chance of taking birth from such father and mother. So all these children should be taken care of very nicely. Oh, yes. They'll be asset for our movement.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Future hope.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore I wanted to organize the Gurukula very nicely. We have no objection. Let them produce hundreds of children.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that your Guru Mahārāja said...
Prabhupāda: "If I could produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, I am prepared to produce hundreds of children." What is the use of producing children like cats and dogs? Produce children like Prahlāda Mahārāja. The whole world will be benefited. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca. (break) Progeny, that is not condemned. Why it should be condemned? Let there be pregnancy, but Kṛṣṇa conscious. That, our Pradyumna's son, these, all children.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is happiness. Bhagavad-gītā points out what is your distress. Can anyone say what is the actual distress? They do not know it. Distress they are taking as usual part of life. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is philosophy, to find out what is distress. This is directly said by Kṛṣṇa, that these are distresses, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, to take birth, to die, to become old and to become diseased. But they do not know it. Not only they, everyone, all over the world, they take it as part of life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance. They do not know what is distress and they are struggling for moving the distress. Just like this independence. They do not know what is meaning of independence. Real independence is when you are free from these four kinds of distress. Does it mean that observing this kind of independence is real independence? It is simply fictitious. If you are not free from the laws of nature, nature will enforce you to die.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Mr. Sharma is a devotee. He's a wonderful person. He's taken to spiritual life and is very serious about it. Mr. Sahani is also very serious, he's...
Prabhupāda: No, every Indian is a devotee. This is the privilege of taking birth in India. There is... Naturally he's devotee, and if he takes little education, take advantage of the Vedic instructions, then his life is successful. In the śāstra it is said even the demigods, they desire to take birth in India because this facility is there in India. This facility, the land is so sanctified that anyone who takes the body from this land, he's born sanctified. Now, if he further takes advantage of the Vedic knowledge, then his life becomes successful. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that anyone who has taken birth in India, make his life successful, and then preach this knowledge to the outside world.
Prabhupāda: Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the seed-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed giving father how a child can take birth?
Dayānanda: How can we accept that situation, that...? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance?
Prabhupāda: No special. Perhaps, this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You'll have to show a practical example.
Prabhupāda: Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe," no. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born, no. Either in the animals or in the human beings, or in the birds, everywhere. Seed-giving father is there.
Indian Doctor: Even there is worship (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are āsaktis. This husband and wife dying together, it is admitted(?) because āsakti is there. That āsakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again.
Indian Doctor: Soul has got no tax.(?)
Prabhupāda: Karma-bandha.
Indian Doctor: Karma-bandha and jīva.
Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter.
Harikeśa: Karmātmakaṁ yena?
Prabhupāda: Ah, śarīra-bandha. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, yāvat mano vai karma?
Prabhupāda: That's all. By lābha-yoga (?) woman will become man and the man will become woman.
Indian Doctor: So long you are taking birth...
Prabhupāda: What action you have got? Before that the verse is,
- nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
- yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
- na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
- asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
- (SB 5.5.4)
So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand.
Indian Doctor: Kuṇape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brāhmaṇa's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries.
Prabhupāda: And he has called Padma-locana. Similarly, this harijana movement is a farce because they remain the Cāmāra and Bhangis, and still they are called harijana. The same thing. No locana, but padma-locana. Everyone has got right. You can become the most advanced devotee. There is no hindrance. But they must be trained up as harijana. Not that artificially you simply rubberstamp harijana. Therefore that movement is failure. We have no objection to make anyone... Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yoni, lower class. Janma-aiśvarya-śruta-śrī, these four things, to take birth in high class family, janma, aiśvarya, to become very rich, and śruta, to become very learned scholar, and śrī, beautiful, these four things are there whose background is pious life. Otherwise, not possible. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī (SB 1.8.26). So those who are just the opposite—means not born in very high class family, not... They say "accident." No, it is not accident. According to śāstra, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1), there is superior examination. Yamarāja is there. Now, this man is now dead, this soul is now changing body. What kind of body he'll get next? That is judged by the superior authority. Just like in the office a person is promoted. So his record is examined, how he has worked honestly to the interest of the establishment. All this consideration. Then he's given increment of salary or promotion to higher post. This is common sense. So it is not accident. A man is born from the very beginning, a rich man's son. That does not mean that it is accident. Daiva-netreṇa. By a superior arrangement he is given the chance to take birth in a aristocratic family or rich family or educated family or in a beautiful family.
Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things, material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person, the soul is the person. Asmin dehe. Within this body there is the soul. And he has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā (BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita, in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the dictionary it is said, that Hindu God but we are claiming, that Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means "Godder than the Hindus." When you say we are not Hindu that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for everyone." So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community. Kṛṣṇa says sarva yoniṣu, "In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father." Why he should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty four million..., eighty, eighty, eight million four hundred thousands, all forms. Kṛṣṇa is for all of them. We therefore, why Kṛṣṇa should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included but Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to Hindus. Kṛṣṇa's picture, that Bal Gopal. He's embracing the calves. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace only the gopīs, He's embracing the calves also. That is Kṛṣṇa. He's equal to everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ, so many low-grade forms of life, they're also His.... Devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jī... (BG 15.7). Quote this: Kṛṣṇa is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, "We are not Hindu," means we are not.... We embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Mohammedans, they.... We embrace everyone, and actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus. That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Kṛṣṇa is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming, all our fallen brothers to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, this is our movement. (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) Why you should be restricted, to the India, and amongst the Hindus. Our (indistinct) they asked that "Go, go," bhārata bhūmite, you have taken birth in India, that's alright, make your life successful and go abroad, para upakāra. Janma sārthaka kori koro para-upakāra. This is our mission.
Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa and very rich family. So I have to go.
Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Manīṣā: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Don't be worried.
Antardhyāna: She is worried Prabhupāda, about...
Prabhupāda: What is the worry? I have already said everyone is going to die.
Prabhupāda: You can describe like this. Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya, sense gratification and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva, I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy and there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Most important movement. (Hindi) You are in a good position. Try to convince others. Life should be for para-upakāra. Not exploiting. This is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
This is India's... Anyone who has taken birth in India, first of all make his life perfect by understanding the śāstra. The gist of śāstra is Bhagavad-gītā. And then distribute the knowledge. Para-upakāra. This should be India's mission. India hasn't got to learn from anywhere else. Everything is there. Let him understand the whole philosophy of life perfectly and distribute this. This is India's mission. So I have tried alone on this point. So I have got little success. And before me so many swamis, yogis went there. They came and go. No effect. Now I have created a community which will continue. They're now saying, "American Hindus." Therefore there is opposition. They understand, "Now it will stand." It is not that Vivekananda's daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. (indistinct).
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are showing some magic. Just like this child was being treated. So he could not check the process of death. Neither it is possible to stop the process of death. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha... Our real unhappiness is this-janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So otherwise why there is knowledge? He does not know what is the miserable condition of life. Everyone knows that he is going to die. He has taken birth; he has become old; he has suffered diseases. Then where is the solution? In America this yoga practice is very popular, and they want some solution of the miseries. But here it is said, "Where is the solution?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi is there. Where is your solution? You cannot stop death. Then where is the solution? This is cheating, that "I shall make solution of your suffering." But a intelligent man will say, "Can you make a solution of my death, of my old age, of my disease, of my birth?" That is knowledge. But they are poor fellows. They have no knowledge and they cheat. That's all. Where is solution? Solution is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), it is said. Otherwise cheating.
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In Bhagavad-gītā there is no such statement that you take care of the eyes of the people. There is no such statement. That is your manufactured idea. But we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is the difference. Our preaching is that instead of giving relief to the eyes, give him relief in such a way he hasn't got to accept any more this body with eyes. You cannot make a solution of the problem. Somebody is taking care of the eyes, somebody's taking of the finger, somebody of the hair, somebody of another, genital, and so on, so on. This will not solve the problem. The problem is, as it is said in the Bhagavad..., janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is intelligence. As soon as you take birth, then you'll have eyes, you'll have eye trouble, vyādhi. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. If you accept janma-mṛtyu, then between janma-mṛtyu there is vyādhi and jarā. You have to accept. You may give some relief, but you have to accept. So that is not solution. The solution is how to stop this janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That is solution.
Prabhupāda: Tilaka, dvādaśa-tilaka. You just go and learn. (break) What is that? (break) Otherwise there is no death. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Actually there is no death. This forgetfulness is death. We have forgotten: "Who was our father, who was our mother, where I was born?" That is death. And otherwise I am the soul, continuing. Just like in childhood so many things we did, but we have forgotten. The forgetfulness is death. The more one forgets, the more one is dead. Otherwise there is no death. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Never takes birth, never dies." Then what is death? Death is forgetfulness. So you can begin now. (break) ...big, big buildings, the same spirit as karmīs are doing. But this desire to construct very big building, when transferred for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. So we have got this tendency, everyone, to possess money, to have very big buildings and so on, so on. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be bhakti. Otherwise karma. And karma means to be bound up by the laws of nature. So? What is...? (break)
Prabhupāda: Therefore I am asking how would you explain. The answer is that we living entities, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We do not die, na jāyate na mriyate vā, kadācit, at any time. We do not take birth; we do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Even by destruction of this body, we do not die. You know this? So we are part and parcel. If we are eternal, how Kṛṣṇa can be...? Hm? If my finger is eternal, how the body is not eternal? How the body can be dead? So why did He die like that, appearing as dead? That is His līlā. That He has, so many līlās. So why this līlā? Just to cheat you. You are atheist, and to keep you atheist forever, so that in your life after life you'll not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is doing, just to cheat you. Because you are atheist, you cannot think of Kṛṣṇa properly. To keep you in darkness forever He manifests this līlā.
Prabhupāda: This is described in the śāstra. If one hears of the Yadu-vaṁśa, he becomes purified. And Kṛṣṇa is addressed, Yadupati. Then?
Hari-śauri: "Having taken birth in that family, how could Kṛṣṇa have been induced even by the gopīs? It is concluded therefore that it was not possible for Kṛṣṇa to do anything abominable. But Mahārāja Parīkṣit was in doubt as to why Kṛṣṇa acted in that way. What was the real purpose? Another word Mahārāja Parīkṣit used when he addressed Śukadeva Gosvāmī is suvrata, which means to take a vow to enact pious activities. Śukadeva Gosvāmī was an educated brahmacārī, and under the circumstance it was not possible for him to indulge in sex.
Satsvarūpa: You were saying that last night in your talk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaiṣṇava. That's all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa's sake he can act as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. It is all Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he's a śūdra. This is actual śūdra's business, servant. But he's not a śūdra. Similarly, we can act for Kṛṣṇa in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). This is to be dwelled on.(?) He's above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhūyāya means liberated. Jīvan-mukta sa ucyate. Jīvan-mukta means he may act in this life as a kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, śūdra. It doesn't matter. But he's liberated. He's not going to take birth again. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A śūdra cannot get that position. So try to understand our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. Janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra. At least nobody can defeat our philosophy in the whole world. That position we have.
Prabhupāda: Why one is taking birth as a brāhmaṇa and why one is taking birth as a dog? So kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. There are three qualities: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). If you become, associate with sattva-guṇa, then you are elevated more and more. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. You remain where you are if you associate rajo-guṇa. And jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And if you practice jaghanya, most abominable practices of tamo-guṇa, then go down. You cannot check it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Guṇaiḥ again. Just like if you have infected some disease, cholera, you must suffer from cholera. If you have infected disease of smallpox, then you must suffer from smallpox. You cannot check it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. You should be very cautious so that you may not be affected by this infectious disease. Therefore you require sadācāra. Always remain neat and clean and always associate with sādhus and Kṛṣṇa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect team of brothers.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has brought them here in Māyāpur. Previously they were advanced, all of you. You are simply born because the mission was to be started. Just like in Yadu-vaṁśa Kṛṣṇa ordered all the devotee demigods to "Go and take birth there to help Me." Similarly, you are also... You were born in Europe, America, to help this. Otherwise you were devotees in you past lives. I have explained that in my recent writings. The purport was mām eti: goes to Kṛṣṇa where His pastime is going on, and then they are transferred to the original. So all the devotees picked up and they were placed together where Kṛṣṇa is having His pastimes in either of these innumerable universes. He's going on. Just the moving... The sun is moving-little, little, little. So Kṛṣṇa's pastimes go on—this universe, that universe, that universe, that universe. In some universe He's present. In all universes present, that is called nitya-līlā. So those who are advanced, perfect devotees, first of all they are sent there and then, further trained up, they enter. Mām eti. Just like after passing the administration examination he's made one assistant of some magistrate, and then gradually he'll be promoted up to the high-court judge.
Prabhupāda: Now, because they have now experience of the bodily comforts, and they have seen it that "Simply by bodily comfort we cannot be happy." They have come to this stage.
Lokanātha: It's fortune to take birth in the West now. It's fortunate to take birth in America or England? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Not all. (laughter) Not all. The fortunate, those who are so fortunate, they are now opposing me. The Western people, they are now opposing this movement, so they are not fortunate. So everywhere there are fortunate and unfortunate. But mostly in this age they are unfortunate. Either in the Western countries or in this country, they are unfortunate mostly. They cannot understand. In India at least those who are not very educated, mass of people, they believe transmigration of the soul. They very easily believe it because culture is based on that, pūrva-janma paro janma. They believe that "If I act sinfully, then I'll have to suffer next life, and because I did not do properly, therefore I am suffering in this life." Still they believe. But the so-called educated people, they are trying to set aside this. They say, "Superstition." And the leaders say that "India, giving more stress on the soul, not on the body, India's position is so degraded." This is the leaders' opinion. Big, big leaders, they think. Therefore the so-called leaders or learned scholars, they write notes on Bhagavad-gītā, but they never give any idea of spiritual life. They utilize Bhagavad-gītā for material end. This is going on. Just like our big leader, Gandhi. He was supposed to be very strict follower of Bhagavad-gītā, and he has never instructed about spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: In so many ways Kṛṣṇa is trying to convince that living soul is different, completely different from matter. Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be cut into pieces. It cannot be burned. It cannot be moistened. It cannot be dried up." In so many ways... "It does not take birth. It does not die. It is not finished after the body is finished." This is the greatest ignorance. And if they want to keep people in ignorance, that is not good business. In the name of education, cheating people. Why there should be education? What is the benefit?
Girirāja: Well, this gives excuse for unrestricted sense gratification, although actually there's no benefit in that. It just makes people more unhappy.
Prabhupāda: Without scientific knowledge the animals are also gratifying their senses. Why they take to the platform of education for sense gratification? What can be benefit? It doesn't require... Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Even the birds and beasts, they have got facilities for sense gratification. The pig, they have got very good facility for sense gratification—no distinction between mother, sister, or anyone. The pig has got greater facility. So why in the name of education?
Prabhupāda: "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra, first of all make your life successful by understanding what is life, and then distribute." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have got this asset. You have rejected.
Mr. Koshi: You started this ten years ago. But why is it that when you were recognized..., you were recognized by others and not in this country?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Because they are so poor that they cannot purchase diamond. But diamond must be there. They are so poor-hearted, their education has been so poorly given that they cannot understand.
Mr. Koshi: Poorly given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "You are this body, jump like cats and dogs," that's all. What is nationalism? This is, that "You are this body. Jump like cats and dogs." A group, as a group of crows gather together, caw caw caw caw. That has been taught. Make group and crow.
Prabhupāda: So He declares that bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra: (CC Adi 9.41) "Anyone who has taken birth as human being, not cats and dogs..." Cats and dogs, they simply jump whole night: "Gow! Gow! Gow!" That is another... We find so many dogs, whole night busy, watching. Whose property he is watching? But he... He has got this business, very busy. As soon as some motorcycle or some..., "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" watching, watching, watching. So therefore this is business of cats and dogs. But human being's business is different. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra: (CC Adi 9.41) "Anyone who has taken birth as a human being in India, bhārata-bhūmi..." Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra: "First of all make your life perfect"—you have got the opportunity, Vedic culture—"and then distribute the knowledge all over the world for doing good to the whole human society." That will glorify the prestige of India. So why not continue this? Let there be an institution fully following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Then people will be benefited. If you say, "It is secular," Bhagavad-gītā is for every man. There is no question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian or this or that, no.
Prabhupāda: Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. So long you have to accept another body, you must suffer. Suffering means this body. That Kṛṣṇa says. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Real suffering is here, that you have to take your birth, you have to die, you have to suffer from disease and old age. But your position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Your business is not to take birth and die. But why you are suffering? Nobody wants to die. You must die. Nobody wants to become old man. He must become. So you do not know what is suffering and how to mitigate it. And Kṛṣṇa points out, "This is suffering." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is knowledge. So temporary... Suppose if there is any boil, and if you... Is that mitigation of suffering, do you think? "Oh, you are suffering?" The surgeon must come and operate and get out this pus and then suffering. So here Kṛṣṇa recommends, "This is mitigation of suffering. Stop your birth, death, old age and disease." So we do not know what is suffering and how to get out. Therefore we have to consult Kṛṣṇa in every step. Then our life will be... This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You take instruction from Kṛṣṇa and try to abide by it. Your suffering will go. Otherwise, simply dog barking will not help.
Yadubara: Do you think there should be any sequel to this film? In other words, to carry on the philosophy?
Prabhupāda: No, you have given the evolution of from fish to plant, plant to insect, bird, animal. That can be little elaborately, evolution. Then human being, full consciousness. Now, this is the chance for understanding God. And if they are still kept in darkness like the animals, that's a dangerous civilization. Refusing the opportunity to the humanity. By knowing this, you can get out of this continual evolutionary process. That is anti-material world, Vaikuṇṭha world, where you can actually live. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. He does not take birth, neither dies, and dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is life. That we are wanting. We are seeking after. It is not possible here. Here you have to go through the evolutionary process again and again if you don't take the opportunity for going back to home, back to... Then it is your misfortune. So this civilization keeping people in their unfortunate condition. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). This is opportunity to understand God and go back to Him, but that opportunity is being refused. Therefore he is returning again to the same position of birth and death. From animal to man, from man to..., up and down. But dehāntara, that is very dangerous. Tathā dehāntara, you have to change your body. Stop this. If you are scientist, stop it. Continue as American forever. Why you cannot? Why you are so proud of your so-called scientific education? Then you are under control. You have constructed this skyscraper building. Live here forever.
Prabhupāda: And then by flit(?) he will be killed. "No, no, sir, I am your countryman, I am countryman. I belong to the same nation." "Who cares for you, flies, cockroaches? Kill them. American flies, who cares for you?" "I was a staunch nationalist. Now I have become fly. Don't kill me." "Who cares for you?" Will they excuse American flies, American cockroaches? But dehāntara-prāpti. That you cannot avoid. Then where is your nationalism? Nation means one who has taken birth in that land. The cockroach, the flies, the animals, they also born in that land, but who cares for them? Dehāntara-prāpti. So you are great nationalist. But the body is changed. How can you save yourself, not become a cockroach? Because the body is changing. That is in other's hand, Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). By superior supervision. It is not your choice. Here is dehāntara-prāpti. "Make me president body." "No, no, that is not your choice. You have to accept what I will give you. It will be just by your work, infection of the modes of nature." Daiva-netreṇa. This is a great science. They do not know it. Instead of understanding their life fictitious, they are asking whether Kṛṣṇa is real or fictitious. This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is fictitious, and on fictitious Kṛṣṇa the big, big ācāryas, they have written so many books. Just see their intelligence. He's a big lawyer. That is your intelligence. Big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, such stalwarts. Their notes, apprising notes, how they have studied. And they have wasted their time on some fictitious? Caitanya Mahāprabhu has spoiled His life after a fictitious? How rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: Niṣkiñcanasya. One who has decided that "This world is useless. I have to take birth repeatedly and accept different types of bodies and suffer." Body means... Those who have understood this fact and disgusted, so bhakti line is for them. One who has the tendency to enjoy this material world, and they are taking advantage of God, "Give me good wife, give me good work, good meal, good enjoyment," they are not in the bhakti line. They are in the very nascent stage.
Prabhupāda: So without this faith, nobody can achieve the association of Kṛṣṇa. There are two things. You become associate of Kṛṣṇa, or you become associate of this material world. So if you do not become associate of Kṛṣṇa, then the next step is this association of material world. And association of material world means accepting one type of body and enjoy or suffer for some time; then you get another body. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Now we have to make our choice, whether you want to stop this material way of life and attain the eternal spiritual life...
- mām upetya punar janma
- duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
- nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
- saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
- (BG 8.15)
If you get the association of Kṛṣṇa, then you haven't got to come here, this material world. Duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says it is duḥkhālayam. Either you take birth in a very rich, aristocratic family, born in the upper planetary system as demigods-Brahmā, Indra, Candra, like that—or you take your birth, an insignificant ant; wherever you are in material body, it is duḥkhālayam. That you cannot avoid.
Prabhupāda: You recite that verse, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti (SB 5.5.4). The instruction of King Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. He said that "This body, human body..." Ayaṁ dehaḥ. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Deha. Everyone has got deha, body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "After this body is finished, another body...," because ātmā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Ātmā is eternal. There is no birth, no death. Nitya, eternal; śāśvataḥ purāṇaḥ, the oldest; and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Therefore this is the problem. The ātmā has no birth, no death, and neither he is dead after the annihilation of this body. But we are put into this condition. We are not put, but we have put ourself. We are putting ourself in this condition of repetition of birth and death. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once we take birth, and again we annihilate this body. So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "This ignorance of self-realization must be removed." Therefore He says, ayaṁ dehaḥ: "This body should not be misused like animals," āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. This is the advice. Ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke. He especially mentions, nṛloke: "in the human form of body." The dog, cat, or doglike man, catlike man, they may remain in ignorance. They have no chance. There are uncivilized men.
Mahāṁśa: And this is a very nice thing he said, Prabhupāda. He said that "We want to improve things in the countryside to an extent that people from the cities start running to the villages."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want. I... Everywhere I go and say, how these rascals...? So much land is lying, and these rascals are not developing. And they are making... What is that? Coal stone. Coal. They are interested with these bricks and stones, not green vegetables. Such a rascal government. Give them facility. We know how to do it. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). Let them engage in kīrtana. There will be more water for gardening, and it will be moist, and then produce fodder for the animals and food for you. And animal gives you milk. That is Vṛndāvana life. And they are absorbed in this so-called opulence. Kṛṣṇa has taken birth. They are bringing so many nice, pleasant foodstuff, very well-dressed and ornamented. These are description. In the morning we were reading. How they were happy, the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana with Kṛṣṇa and living and cows.
Prabhupāda: You say. We don't say. Because you cannot do, you say. We are cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness for this purpose. We are not wasting time. And we are wasting time doing so? We are fools? That is the first instruction, that soul is immortal and unchanging. This very instruction they cannot understand. That is first instruction. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). This simple... A child changes body. That is beginning. There is no... Same child. For a while it may be. Now he's grown up, young man. It is not change of body? Why these rascals cannot understand? What is that improvement of...? Therefore I have said, "You have no brain." It is a fact. My son, he's now young man. He took birth as a small child. Where is that body? Body has changed. Common thing. But these rascals, so fool, they cannot understand. I have become old man, but if some elderly persons, my guardians, were alive, he knew it, "He has become old man, but he was born a small child." That we have given in pictures, change of body. Change of body is going on. Why these rascals cannot understand? What is their intelligence? Therefore the real problem is the change of body should be stopped. And that is real scientific advancement.
Prabhupāda: Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. As soon as you take birth, brāhmaṇa is your guru. So where is brāhmaṇa? Tad-vijñānarthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Where is that guru? Therefore the society, chaotic condition.... As soon as you take birth, you have to accept brāhmaṇa guru. So there must be brāhmaṇas. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be brāhmaṇas. Otherwise where is human society? It is animal society. In the animal society they are clever, enjoy. "How! How! How! How!" Jackals and tigers and big, this animal, that animal, they are everything. Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is the first time attempt is being made—"There must be brāhmaṇas"—this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They do not know the aim of life, how it should be organized, what kind of members there should be. No knowledge. Therefore I have challenged that "Your brain is filled up with stool. You do not know how human society is happy." Here is janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. So where is brāhmaṇa? Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ.
Prabhupāda: Hm. He was rascal speculator. He took the idea from the Vedic literature, and he wanted to take the credit himself, and the different hodgepodge theory, this is... Britishers took the idea from Vedic literature and presented in British way. Britisher wanted that "We are the monopolizers of all scientists, all big men." Sir Isaac Newton, then the, who is that, Darwin, big politicians, Gladstone, everything big-British. They wanted it. "British means all big men. Therefore we must rule over the world." All Lords, Sirs, and this and that... They wanted to prove, "The only big men of the universe, they take birth in England, and therefore we should rule over the world." (laughs) And this was their pledge.
Prabhupāda: You open the door and close. And keep open. Why it is... (break) They will close the closet, and I'll open the door. Close it and go on, open and go on, throne, this... (Hindi) Very well. (break) There is a agent preparing the stolen papers.(?) That now...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every time I go to the marketplace... (break)
Prabhupāda: And well done, to the next fair(?). What I have got? In the Deity room silver stand, silver lamp, silver plate. I do not find this. (break) ...is known there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Seems like more varieties of living entities take birth in Bhāratavarṣa than anywhere else. I don't find... So many different kinds of bugs are there. Here every day a new bug comes out, new type of bug.
Prabhupāda: Not new. You see new. They are all existing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They hatch. (end)
Prabhupāda: Solve this problem. And don't be poverty-stricken. That's all. That is happiness. There is no need of... So we, the members of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are living hundred times happily than anyone else, hundred times. They cannot dream. They are envious. In Los Angeles the neighborhood men, they're envious, that "These people, these devotees, they do not do anything, and they are living so comfortably—so many cars, nice palace, nice food." They inquire. They do not know. Don't expect in that way happiness. That is futile, that "Our father will leave lakhs of rupees and we shall get the interest and enjoy and then drink and go on." That is not happiness. Work hard how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and be happy in this way. Kṛṣṇa will give. And yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). He knows what is your need. Depend on Kṛṣṇa, but don't sit down like lazy. Yudhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is instruction. We are trying to teach the whole world that "Be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and keep your status quo very nicely without any being poverty-stricken, and that is happiness." That is happiness. And so far the bodily disadvantages, so as soon as you get this material body, you'll have to... You have to die. You have to suffer from disease. You have to take birth. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā. So therefore śāstra says, that verse, that "Don't be attached to karma-kāṇḍa, fruitive activities." Na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam. "By karma-kāṇḍa you can get better body, but that will not solve your problem."
Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyate (Hindi) Para-upakāra. This is the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, para-upakāra. Especially those who have taken birth in India...
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
(Hindi) This is Indian culture, para-upakāra. Indian culture is not meant for exploiting others. Para-upakāra. That is human life, para-upakāra. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata, especially... (Hindi—Indians leave for darśana; kavirāja and Bhakti-caru enter)
Kavirāja: (Hindi)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The main thing we saw today, Prabhupāda passed more urine than ever before, and very clear-colored.
| Page Title: | Take birth (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 06 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=149, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 149 |