Expressions researched:
"Laborer Class"
|"sudra"
|"sudra's"
|"sudrani"
|"sudranis"
|"sudras"
Acyutānanda: It already has our name. If the Bhagavad-gītā is in the Mahābhārata—that's itihāsa—how did it get the name Upaniṣad, Gītopaniṣad?
Prabhupāda: Because it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Itihāsa also Vedic literature. Pañcama-veda, Mahābhārata, for understanding of the common man. Strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnāṁ trayi na śruti-gocarāḥ (SB 1.4.25). Woman, śūdra, and dvija-bandhu, they cannot understand directly the Vedas.
Indian man (1): Yes, they take it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The brāhmaṇas?
Indian man (1): Yes, most of them. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...sambhava. Where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdra.
Indian man (1): But according to.... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...not vegetarian. We are neither nonvegetarian. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ (BG 9.26). So we offer Him, and then we eat it, so we have nothing to do with vegetarian and nonvegetarian. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me flesh," then we can eat flesh also. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in Viṣṇu Purāṇa.
That is said, varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.
Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakṛti is there. Prakṛti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mūḍha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says, "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism; that is hooliganism.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere there were aborigines. In India there are still aborigines, ādivāsī.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying, Prabhupāda, the Huns.
Prabhupāda: Huns.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Huns. They were considered like that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Huns are also lower than the śūdras, caṇḍālas, dog-eaters, animal-eaters. And these Europeans historians, they take the aborigines, their original father.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their what, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Original father.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said, "Yes, they are your original father."
Prabhupāda: No, no. "The aborigines, the naked jaṅgalīs, they were original person." Do they not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Before that, there was the caveman.
Prabhupāda: Ah, caveman. That's... Caveman. That is aborigine.
Acyutānanda: Yes. Yes, you can say that is the statement of Cāṇakya. One foolish man... I was saying, "Some...," in my lectures, "some foolish scholar has written that because Kṛṣṇa is black, He is a scheduled caste." So there was a scheduled caste man in the audience who became educated. So he took offense. "Well, maybe Kṛṣṇa was the leader of the scheduled caste." So I said then, "that is the statement of some scholar. You cannot criticize me. I am quoting a scholar." The audience shouted him down too. (break) Śūdras and yavanas may become brāhmaṇas, but many of them don't.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Acyutānanda: So many born śūdras are śūdras, many times.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: But artificially the government process is to give benefits and prestige to the harijanas without being qual...
Prabhupāda: Without training.
Acyutānanda: Training.
Prabhupāda: Without making him harijana...
Acyutānanda: A harijana may become a brāhmaṇa, but sometimes a harijana is a scheduled caste.
Prabhupāda: Harijana means methara. As soon as he comes, if he says, "I am harijana" then immediately you understand that he is a sweeper.
Prabhupāda: We can go there... And now, wherever we shall go, they will be received like that.
Jayapatākā: They especially mentioned...
Prabhupāda: The Indian people are meant for that purpose. They are from the birth, janma... Other, they are janmanā śūdra, but Indians, they are janmanā devotees.
Jayapatākā: I meant to mention that he commented that when they were coming from Andhra, when they, as they're getting closer to Bengal, in Orissa, and then even more so in Bengal, the, both in Ori... so many kīrtana was there. The people were meeting them with kīrtana and everyone was doing kīrtana. But in Andhra and other places, not so much kīrtana is there.
Prabhupāda: No.
Jayapatākā: They say they get much better reception in Orissa and Bengal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because...
Jayapatākā: And already they picked up one devotee, I think. Devotees come also quicker.
Hṛdayānanda: Lord Caitanya...
Jayapatākā: I think if we concentrated first in Bengal and Orissa, we get some, enough devotees, and then they could help us in the other villages elsewhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Trivikrama: That's right, because I don't know, ignorant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to cover their ignorance by this theory, "chance." They want to become very intelligent by chance. That is their.... That is not the fact. For intelligence you have to learn from a superior person. It cannot be done by chance. Who has become learned scholar by chance? There is none.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because that is śūdra philosophy, this chance philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone has to work very hard, pass examination, and then he becomes an educated man. Where is by chance one has become learned?
Pañca-draviḍa: What about two people born in the same circumstance? Each has equal education and equal background, but one becomes rich and one remains poor. That's chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fate. Fate is the cause, destiny. Otherwise, so many people are working hard. Why not everyone is becoming rich by chance? Kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. This is the instruction in the Bhāgavatam. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. There are two things—happiness and distress—and they are being controlled by the time. You have infected some disease. In time, it will come out, manifested, and the doctor say, "Oh, you infected this disease. Take this injection." The time factor. It.... You have to wait to see the result. It is not chance. As soon as you do something, immediately the reaction begins. But you do not see the result immediately, but wait and you'll find. Yes.
Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life—one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment. Why not me?" There is struggle. This is actual picture. Our Vedic advice is that make life very simple. You must have some means of livelihood. Keep your body and soul together. So according to quality, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), there must be division and then simple life. The real aim is tam abhyarcya, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone is.... Brāhmaṇa is guiding, kṣatriya is ruling, and vaiśya is producing food, and śūdra, they have no brain; they are helping. In this way the society is very peaceful, and everyone is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: There is.... The brāhmaṇa... This is brāhmaṇa. This formula is there. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjava. So you have to see whether he is possessing this quality. Or train them. Have brahminical school, what I am willing to do. That is required absolutely. There must be a class of men, perfect brāhmaṇa. Otherwise society will be ruined. In the Western countries there is no brāhmaṇa. There may be some kṣatriyas and vaiśyas only, and śūdras. Brāhmaṇa there is none. So the same thing is here also now. Therefore the whole society is going down. There is no brāhmaṇa. What is this? This is brahminical culture. We are asking them not to be sinful, become devotee. This is brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, for the benefit of brahminical culture and cow protection. That is brahminical culture.
Prabhupāda: No matriculation. They engage good paṇḍitas, good teachers, and teach them at home, and, as soon as they are able to read and write and see accounts, immediately engage in the business. They know that "We can purchase technologist. Why shall I waste time for so-called education, Ph.D., D.A.C.?" You have seen that Ph.D. in our Vṛndāvana? Useless. So many Ph.D.'s are useless. Cannot earn their livelihood. I have seen. So what is the use? Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Because one has become.... I have seen one Ph.D. chemist in Allahabad. He could not get any job. Then he was manufacturing soap at home and taking it in cycle and going to the market just like ordinary coolie. These so-called educationists, unless they get a good job, they are useless street dog. Useless. They cannot earn even livelihood. Therefore śāstra says, "Don't try for these things, to increase your economic position. This is already destined. You cannot increase or decrease. Whatever you are destined, you must get it. Try to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
You'll get. As you get miserable condition of life—you don't like it but it comes—similarly, happy condition will also come according to your destiny. Why you are wasting time for this? This is the decision of the śāstra. You cannot change your destiny. If you have to be, have to work like a coolie, even after becoming Ph.D. you'll have to work like a coolie. You cannot change it. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Jaya. This is.... Therefore formerly any man was satisfied in any position. They were not trying to develop economic condition, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. She is your daughter?
Prabhupāda: Very good health.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're doing it every day now.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...intelligence and kṣatriya's executive power and vaiśya's productive capacity and śūdra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect.
Dr. Patel: How this social order can be generated in India?
Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: The kṣatriya's duty is that everyone is religious. It doesn't matter whether he follows Muslim or.... That is kṣatriya's duty, not that to discriminate, "The Hindu religion is better than the Muslim religion. Muslim..." That is not the way. If everyone is religious, it doesn't matter whether he is Hindu...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas. What can we do?
Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra, they have no brain; they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first-class brāhmaṇa, and the kṣatriyas, if they abide by our instruction-our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs, they have begun to keep secretaries.
Prabhupāda: Go-rakṣya, the point is that cow's milk is very important. Therefore specifically mentioned go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa does not say that don't eat meat. It is not really said that meat-eating is forbidden. But meat-eating is tāmasika, prāmādya (indistinct). But He's speaking of go-rakṣya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk, which will help us in keeping our health in order and developing very nice brain tissues to understand spiritual subject matter. Fish-eaters, they're all dull. They cannot understand finer philosophy of life. Meat-eating, not good. But the śūdras, and the less than śūdras, they eat. But for them there's lower animals, not cow.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. So therefore people are trying to get money somehow or other. Then he knows, "I get all power." The present struggle is everyone is trying to get more, more, more, more money. Because everyone knows if I get money then I.... (static) Just like the Beatles and others. Actually what they have got qualification? They have got money. (static) That's all. What qualification? Singer. Singer, according to Vedic culture, third-class, fourth-class man.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śūdra.
Hari-śauri: Most of these famous guys, they are all really the lowest grade people as well. Very low grade.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, this John Lennon, how he dares to photograph naked with his lover? How lowest class man he is, that he has no shame even. And he's also big man. Press reporters go to take his opinion on certain subject matters. They do not know where I am going to take opinion. What is the value of this man? But people are after money. Why? "I have got money." That's all.
Prabhupāda: This.... This was the problem in India, and now it is also in America. (break)
Mahendra: Graduating with Ph.D.'s and then becoming truck drivers.
Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda said years ago that our colleges are producing beggars. They get a degree and then they beg.
Prabhupāda: Śūdras and beggar.
Rādhāvallabha: (break) ...reporter that he was liberated. Later on, he was asking whether you were joking. (laughter)
Duryodhana-guru: (break) It says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). So this refers to someone who has attained Brahman realization, that he must fall down because he does not take shelter at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet. Does this also refer to someone who has attained paramātmā realization?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one reaches Vaikuṇṭha planet, nobody is safe.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Rāmeśvara: That's their idea of equality. All men are equal, so no one should have more money.
Hari-śauri: Make everyone a śūdra.
Rāmeśvara: That's what you wrote in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that communism is a movement of śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're śūdras.
Hari-śauri: There's a very popular slogan now in Australia.
Prabhupāda: Equality.
Hari-śauri: No, "Make the rich pay."
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hari-śauri: They are so much envious of those persons with more money.
Prabhupāda: India also, that.... "Make the rich pay."
Hari-śauri: In England also that's the prevalent theme now. That has accounted for the demolishing of the aristocracy in England more than anything, the government heavily taxing them so that anyone with money now is...
Prabhupāda: It is finished. In England aristocracy is finished.
Prabhupāda: There is no distinction between man and woman. That is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpā-yonayaḥ striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). The first is mentioned, striya. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. These classes are understood to be less intelligent-woman, śūdra, and the vaiśyas. But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, even for them it is open." Because in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, man, woman, or black, white, or big or small. No. Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ (BG 5.18), one who is actually learned, he is sama-darśinaḥ. He does not make any distinction. But so far our material body is concerned, there must be some distinction for keeping the society in order.
Indian man (3): My position you mean in relation to Kṛṣṇa or in relation to the world?
Prabhupāda: No, in relation to the world. In relationship with the world, therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). What is your quality? Then you are classified as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra. Then your duty. First of all you must know what you are, what is your position. Then there is duty.
Indian man (1): is it right that if you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all the duties are automatically taken care of?
Prabhupāda: All the duties, the summarization of duty: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. There are different duties, but the real duty is saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13), whether you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll have done all.... Ataḥ pumbhiḥ. Because there are different types of duties. But whatever you do, the success is whether by your duty you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful.
Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these?
Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles.
Prabhupāda: Plumbing?
Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors. But we are just śūdras; we don't know how to do anything else.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles?
Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement.
Prabhupāda: Doing here?
Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling.
Prabhupāda: Cornice.
Reporter: "So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?"
Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness. Because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause, to maintain the body properly."
Reporter: "So good government means first of all to accept the Supreme Being as the real ruler of the government."
Prabhupāda: "You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees of the Lord, as your guides. The government men are the kṣatriyas, the second class. The kṣatriyas should take advice from the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiśyas should carry out the kṣatriyas' orders in practice, and the śūdras should work under these three orders, then society will be perfect." The end of the article.
Prabhupāda: You like this?
Kīrtanānanda: Very nice.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: Right to the point.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In the varṇāśrama institution the sannyāsī, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brāhmaṇa is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. But a sannyāsī, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brāhmaṇas also. For a sannyāsī the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyāsī has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks 'After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramātmā, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. 'I shall never be alone,' one should think..."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Don't divert your attention.
Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that story, the cobbler actually was more advanced than the brāhmaṇa, and yet in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that "Anyone can approach Me, even the strī śūdra dvija bandhu," they can all approach the supreme destination. Then in the next verse he says "How much greater, then, are the brāhmaṇas, the righteous, the devotees, the saintly kings." I was wondering how are they greater?
Prabhupāda: You do not understand it?
Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders.
Prabhupāda: Suppose you have got your spiritual master and you, if somebody says that you can come into the..., any one of you can come in this car. So spiritual master goes, you also go. Does it mean that spiritual master is not greater than you? Do you think like that?
Devotee (1): No.
Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go, does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, śūdras. So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam, personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā. Maryādā means honor. That must... Varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Māyāvāda.
Prabhupāda: Nonsense democracy. What is...? Don't talk of this nonsense talk. (laughter). Democracy, communism, still there are varieties. But you make a president. Let everyone become president.
Kulādri: That's what they've done, now the śūdras...
Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done. Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say "I think like this," you'll say "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform. Come to the human platform." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There you will get, "If we all dogs meet together and pass a resolution, then it will be organized." That is democracy. Democracy means like that. The dog is kept as dog, and they are assembled together to take their votes. What is the value of their vote? They are dogs. I've publicly said this, where?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This would be the prescription for all people?
Prabhupāda: Everyone, for all people. There must be on the head the intelligent class of men who will give advice. Then next class, the... That is all given in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious you can give up all these regulative principles directly. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). A brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, or this dharma, that dharma, Hindu dharma, Mussulman dharma. If you have everything, simply... Because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Kṛṣṇa. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right."
Devotee: So many other people, they concoct their own system and they say "This is the way to go to God."
Prabhupāda: Then let them suffer. What can be done? What can be done? If you don't take the laws of the state, you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. If the state says, "Keep to the right," and if make your own law, "No, keep to the left," then you'll suffer. It's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Benefit will be then the whole thing will go in order. That is already described many times, that there must be brain, there must be arms, there must be belly, there must be legs for the complete composition of the body. If there is no brain, there is no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in the society, human society, if there is not a class of selected, truthful, honest, and so many brahminical qualifications, then society is ruined. Therefore they are perplexed. Everyone is a śūdra. Go to the factory. That's all. Go to the factory and bring money. And he is getting 25 dollars or 50 dollars daily and immediately purchasing wine and flat on Bowery Street. You'll produce such men, useless men, disturbing in the human society. You cannot make classless. If you make classless, naturally they will be all śūdras, fourth-class men. Then there will be society chaos.
Prabhupāda: Long, long ago. (laughter)
Hari-śauri: He's just using the word "harijana" in place of śūdra or what was formerly "untouchables."
Prabhupāda: He can use, but this "harijana" word was manufactured by Gandhi. Vivekananda died some time, 1900... I do not exactly remember. When Gandhi's movement was not started. Gandhi's movement was started in 1917. And long ago Vivekananda expired.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, his question is, "Swami Vivekananda has given a positive suggestion that one of the best ways for harijanas to command respect among all sections of people is to learn Sanskrit, the study of which is being neglected even by brāhmaṇas today. What incentives can be given to harijanas to learn Sanskrit, the repository of Indian culture and religion?"
Prabhupāda: That is another misgiving. They will never be able to learn Sanskrit, and neither it is possible that by learning Sanskrit they will be elevated. There are many Sanskrit scholars. So how they are elevated? They are rotting. It is not a good suggestion, this. If the harijana actually becomes harijana, then it will benefit. That training we can give. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we can make a harijana, a so-called, I mean to say, camaras, bhangis... Now they understand harijana means he must be a camara or bhangi. But that is not the actual... harijana means devotee, "The man of Hari." So in spite of their illiteracy in Sanskrit language, we can make him harijana, actually.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna:
"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaiśyas, as well as śūdras, can approach the supreme destination."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The condition is that "those who take shelter unto Me." Now, Mahatma Gandhi manufactured the harijana, but where there is the teaching that "You take shelter of Kṛṣṇa?" So how this harijana will be effective? The condition is there, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32).
Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra... The real aim is to bring the rascal to the platform of knowledge. That is called saṁskāra. Janmana jāyate śūdra. By birth everyone is the same, śūdras, means without any knowledge. But the saṁskāra means śūdra, rascal, without any knowledge of spiritual life, to gradually bring him to the spiritual platform. That is called saṁskāra. And saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is essential. The human life is the opportunity for understanding what he is and what is the aim of his life. The aim of life is back to home, back to Godhead. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in this material existence. So aim is again come to our spiritual life, spiritual existence, where there is no struggle for existence, blissful, happy life. Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world. That is in the spiritual world. That is the aim. So every human being should be given chance. That is real education. That is called saṁskāra. So these saṁskāra, there are dāsa-vidha-saṁskāraḥ... So in this age it is very difficult, but if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra without any offense, being trained up by the spiritual master, all the saṁskāras automatically become done and he comes to his original spiritual position, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32).
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the śāstras one should be elevated to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdra. Śudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says pāpa-yoni? Pāpa-yoni. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. They are also taken as pāpa-yoni. And what to speak of the śūdras and caṇḍālas? They must be pāpa-yoni. Only the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brāhmaṇa, who is kṣatriya, who is a vaiśya, who is a śūdra. It is accepted that everyone is a śūdra because there is no reformation. So according to Pāñcarātriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaiṣṇava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathād bhaved vipraḥ. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brāhmaṇa. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Viṣṇu, then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. That is perfection of life.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great step forward.
Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class, and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and caṇḍāla. Caṇḍālas, they will remain, and they are eating. Let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh.
Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian.
Prabhupāda: Christians.
Hari-śauri: Even they're exporting beef from India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes.
Prabhupāda: So that attitude will not help to understand. (Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with an Indian lady about how one does not have to renounce family life to understand Kṛṣṇa.) He says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). He understands perfectly. There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is a question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So gṛhastha. (Hindi) ...in gṛhastha life or sannyāsī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, :kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. (Hindi) I shall speak in English so that others.... Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṇa, kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra, nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa, or.... There are eight varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.
kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya
Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna is our guru, but he's a gṛhastha, he's a soldier, he's a kṣatriya. He's neither brāhmaṇa nor sannyāsī nor Vedantist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is guru. So gṛhastha (Hindi). Śravaṇam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to go to a person where you can surrender.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama-dharma it is called-four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty and how the duty is perfected? That is hari-toṣaṇam, to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That people do not know. Especially at the present moment, they do not know who is Hari and they do not know how to please Him. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God. That is going on under religious system, and the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Dharma is not a kind of faith, religion is not a kind of faith, but it is a duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. So that duty we are forgetting. And therefore we are coming to the level of animals. Because the cats and dogs, they have no duty-animal. But human being has an obligation, a duty to understand God and to satisfy Him. That is human life. Without this knowledge, without this performance of duty, human life is on the level of animals. There are many other verses in this connection.
Dr. Sharma: Perhaps you can comment on the fact that in the movement, the Kṛṣṇa people, not only the sannyāsīs, but also the common working man, his karma is karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. He also...
Prabhupāda: This is karma. Karma means according to that division, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Karma means activity. There must be some prescribed activity. Just like you are professor, you have got your prescribed activities. He's the minister of ambassador's, he has got prescribed activities. So everyone has got prescribed activities in whatever position he is, but what is the standard of success, that I have done my duties, prescribed duties properly? What is that standard? The standard is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam: (SB 1.2.13) whether you have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your duty. Then it is success.
Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community.
Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can teach how this cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is... Actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras, then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa. So this, not this brain, this brain is śūdra brain for everyone. But when the... But just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientists from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa. You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. These people give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain.
Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.
Prabhupāda: How there can be, because the democracy? You are corrupt, therefore your government is corrupt. You correct yourself, the government will be automatically corrected. If you are rascals, the government will be rascals. The government means elected. So if you are not rascal, you'll not elect another rascal to take charge of the government affairs. But because you are rascal, you'll send another rascal. So how can you expect good government? You do not know whom to select. And besides that, the whole population is rascal, śūdra. So anyone you elect, if he's by qualification he's a śūdra, worker, he's not intelligent person, he's not brāhmaṇa, he's not kṣatriya. Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brāhmaṇas. They give advice. Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Rāmacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently—they were taking advice from learned brāhmaṇas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brāhmaṇas. Then the other administrators, the President or the minister, they should be kṣatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If śūdras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all. And that will be the latest atmosphere, dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. All the government men will become thieves and rogues. Dasyu, dasyu means thieves and rogues.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32).
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa says that even women, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brāhmaṇa or... Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform.
Guest (2): Your Grace? How can a person tell what his or her occupation or duty is supposed to be?
Prabhupāda: Yes, duty is already prescribed, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have read Bhagavad-gītā? So this is the duty. "You give up all other duties, you simply take to Me, surrender unto Me." This is duty. All other duties, they are temporary, and this is real duty, to surrender to God. If you think that "I am giving up all other duties, my family duties, my community duty, my national duty and so many..." Because you may think like that, that "Giving up all duties, I simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious...," as Arjuna was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa gives you assurance, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: (BG 18.66) "Don't worry, I shall give protection. If you think that by giving up all other duties you'll be sinful, so I give you assurance that I shall give you all protection." It is clearly stated. So this is the only duty, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become His perfect devotee. This is the only duty.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it's a fact. If you work as a brāhmaṇa, if you are thinking yourself as a brāhmaṇa, then you act as brāhmaṇa. You cannot act as a śūdra. As a brāhmaṇa you cannot accept anyone's service, then you become śūdra. You deviate from your own position. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they'll never accept anyone's service, only the śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). When you live at the mercy of others, this is called dog's business. Just like a dog lives at the mercy of the master. So it is strictly prohibited for the brāhmaṇas. Even in very difficult position, you can act as a kṣatriya, you can act as a vaiśya, but never accept the position of a dog, a śūdra. This is the injunction. Sve sve karmaṇi, you stick to your own business. If you claim as a brāhmaṇa, then you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then you'll become successful. You cannot remain a brāhmaṇa and accept the business of a dog, that is not sve sve karmaṇi. So everything, what is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is perfect. People at the present moment, they are living at the mercy of others. That is dog's business. Therefore (in) the śāstra it is said kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is a śūdra. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. That is generally accepted. Because at the present moment education means to get some service. What is the value of that education? If you become dependent on others, then what is the value of this education? Therefore kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Everyone is a śūdra. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement says striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ: (BG 9.32) never mind, even if you are śūdra, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter, or any other pāpa-yoni, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, te 'pi yānti parām (BG 9.32). So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform.
Prabhupāda: Duty is... The śāstra is there. Bhagavad-gītā is there. The Bible is there. So follow.
Guest (3): Whether a man should be a shopkeeper or a teacher or a carpenter, the Bible won't tell me that, and the Bhagavad-gītā won't tell me that.
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is there, the four divisions of human society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brāhmaṇa's duty, kṣatriya's duty, vaiśya's duty, śūdra's duty, brahmacārī's duty, everything is there.
Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacārī, then I should be a brahmacārī. If I become a śūdra, I act as a śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you act as a brahmacārī, do your brahmacārī work, you'll be successful.
Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly?
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the śāstra, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacārī, gṛhastha or vānaprastha, sannyāsī, or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacārī?
Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is saying the opposite than what you hypothesized. In other words, if everything is arranged socially, politically, everything, in a God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious manner, then it is easier to accept the principles of God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Just like... These are all discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā, what kind of social arrangement should be. That... It is called varṇāśrama-dharma. A brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—these are different groups, and if they are favorably trained up then spiritual understanding becomes very easy.
Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the future direction of the movement, how you plan to expand.
Prabhupāda: That is... That is going on already. Just like these boys, they did not know about Kṛṣṇa some years ago, but they are taking seriously. The same process, if it is continued, then people will take.
Interviewer: I see, I see. That's like most religious names derived quite often out of ridicule or scorn. Like the Quakers, that was originally a title of scorn. And Methodists, they were the methodical ones, that was a title of scorn. And the Baptists were the baptizers.
Prabhupāda: Real Vedic principle is called varṇāśrama. Observing the principle of four varṇas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. It is a very long science. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This is called varṇa. And brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is called āśrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is later contribution of the so-called scholars.
Interviewer: Well ah, I thank you very much for your time, your Grace, and I'm glad I finally got acquainted with you. I missed you in Brooklyn.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Interviewer: I missed you in Brooklyn, I came over there and you were in the backyard, I think you were asleep or having a backrub or something. So I didn't get to see you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in the daytime I am...
Interviewer: It was good to catch you this time and I hope to see you again.
Prabhupāda: So kindly put the matter properly because people misunderstand on account of their ignorance they misunderstand our, movement.
Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that. That means Vaiṣṇava. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). One can immediately transcend the jurisdiction of three modes of material nature if he engages himself in the devotional service of the Lord.
Hari-śauri: We can go down to the right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...difference between a śūdra and brāhmaṇa. A śūdra can be misled at any moment. That is stated in... Strī śūdra. Woman and śūdra on the same class. You can mislead them by high talkings: "Oh, I am coming from Indian prince." They come here, marry some European, and go to India and then engage him (her) for collecting water in bucket. One Muhammadan crewman, a vagabond, he bluffed one girl that "I am coming from Muhammadan prince family." Then she married, and she went to Allahabad, and she was given borakhā and she was living in a hut, and then she was bringing water from the street. She wrote a letter to the Viceroy that "This is my position." Then police came and rescued her and sent her. (break)
Gurudāsa: ...Pañca-tantra about a jackal who poses as a king. He has blue dye on, so they think he's special, but when he heard other jackals, all he could do was howl, and he was exposed. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?
Bali-mardana: He's here, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Now there should be one rule that unless they are husband-wife, man and woman should not worship together.
Bhūgarbha: They say like that.
Prabhupāda: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also. People are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody's taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology.
Bhūgarbha: Science.
Prabhupāda: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science.
Bhūgarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called churchmouse. Churchmouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Churchmouse. Any new mail?
Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras, and brāhmaṇas are not meant for this.
Prabhupāda: Dravidian culture. Dravida. They are non-Āryans. Just like these Africans, they are not Āryans. Now they are mixing up with Europeans and Americans. In India, it was, one from the higher section, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they will be fair complexion. Śūdras, black. So if a brāhmaṇa becomes black, then he's not accepted as brāhmaṇa. Kāla bahu (?). And if a śūdra becomes fair, then he's to be know that he's not pure śūdra. Although we do not take very, but, this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, by birth, but still, we have seen, those who are coming purely from high caste family, their behavior and śūdras behavior is different. The family culture. And the spiritual culture lost, still, the family culture keeps them separate.
Hari-śauri: Still, we still met a lot of people in India who are actually following the regulative principles just as a matter of social training. But they're becoming very few now.
Prabhupāda: In, actually, in Bengal, Bengal has lost its original culture. In other provinces the brāhmaṇa class, they are keeping very strictly the original culture. Even a brāhmaṇa would not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife, because woman is considered śūdra. The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brāhmaṇa, then she is called brāhmaṇī, but she's not offered brahminical culture. She remains as śūdra. So therefore a strict brāhmaṇa does not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife. Still there are in U.P. The wife will arrange for cooking, and he'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis. Then he will eat, and whatever remains, that is there, that will be taken by her. But he will not take foodstuff cooked by his even wife. And if there are several brāhmaṇas, so each one of them will cook his own food.
Prabhupāda: Because we have no, that cātur-varṇa system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya.
Dr. Patel: I think that is a wrong system (much airplane noise-indistinct) this open Democracy is not a (indistinct) by consensus...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is śūdra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," śūdra will be on the power. So they can...
Dr. Patel: In Kali-yuga, sir, the śūdras will rule according to the...
Prabhupāda: Everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Who is going to become brāhmaṇa? We are inviting everyone, "Come here, become brāhmaṇa." Who is interested? He'll go to the factory. Instead of becoming brāhmaṇa he'll be hammerman. In America no students are coming to the philosophical class or higher mathematics class.
Prabhupāda: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brāhmaṇa's body or śūdra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries.
Indian Doctor: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God...
Prabhupāda: No, you have got... You can become free. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti...
Indian Doctor: Bhakti-avyabhicāriṇī. I have got that tendency, bhakti, avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti.
Prabhupāda: No, no, simply to know Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya... So you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). So without bhakti there is no possibility to understand Kṛṣṇa. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body.
Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there.
Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the, that is the other part of it. We are having dhana-prasthānam,(?) bhajana group, hari-kathā group...
Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas. So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik—and if you ask nowadays anybody that "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh, that "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam. And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is..." Satyam. Just like Jābāli? Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni. Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said, "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said, "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." He was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said, "Sir, my mother does not know, I do not know." So he said, "You are a brāhmaṇa. Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa. I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality-truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee is let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda. Then gradually they'll become... I began this movement on this. Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study Vedas in the beginning. What they'll read Veda? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda."
Paṇḍita: I came for philosophy, even in this age.
Prabhupāda: No, no, your case is different. But generally people they are losing interest in philosophy because they are becoming śūdras. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. They are after some job to get money. So they see that "What I shall get by learning philosophy? Let me learn technology. I'll get a good job and good money and enjoy life." This is...
Paṇḍita: That is general trend. Of course, I know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In India also the same thing.
Paṇḍita: Yes, yes. I was working in Bombay as a stenographer in a private company. In 1964 I resigned my job after reading Vivekananda's works. I'll tell you about some of my own history. Afterwards I went and joined the... I went and stayed in Hrishikesh Shivananda āśrama for two months, and I wanted to study this philosophy, etc., in the originals. But at Shivananda āśrama it was not...
Prabhupāda: They have no idea.
Prabhupāda: That means he's not pure brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmaṇa family, how it has... Still, family, it must be very fair. Śukla. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kāla brāhmaṇa prakāśa śūdra (Bengali) beki poṣya-putro pasaraila.(?) It is a slang language. Kāla brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa should not be black and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly real Musselmen were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called (indistinct). If a Muslim is dwarf that means he is not real. (Bengali) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra, adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmaṇa, white śūdra, dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son, and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like... I have seen so many adopted sons.
Hari-śauri: To learn how to sing them nicely. To learn how to sing them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give them the tune. (chants first line of another verse) (break) ...ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā. This is Kali-yuga's king. Nṛpa-liṅga. Dressed like king. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharam, but śūdra. Nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdraṁ ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā. Very expert in cow-killing.
Hari-śauri: That's a very accurate prediction.
Prabhupāda: Third-class, fourth-class men, dressed like President and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. 1965, 17 September, I landed at Boston.
Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then.
Devotee: Changed the world.
Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down. (end)
Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our mission. That you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times food stuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land... Just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up... They are not given anything to eat. There is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse. Not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. The recommended process in the Bhagavad-gītā, that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam (BG 18.44); go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. The, according to Bhagavad-gītā, this is the business of the vaiśyas. The brāhmaṇas, they should be very much highly educated, enligthened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas, they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas, they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya, śūdras, they can help. That's all. This is their.... Then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be.... Then the social arrangement is perfect.
Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ: "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā, "no one barred." Especially naming, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām. Everyone is to be.... Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our life members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint.
Prabhupāda: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, in digging.
Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him Īśopaniṣad and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction.
Prabhupāda: No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work.
Yaśodānandana: And when that boy would be told to watch himself...
Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is brāhmaṇa. No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: Hyderabad?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high class brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (man laughs in background) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there... That I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart.
Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work.
Jagadīśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas, śūdras. (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According... One Englishman used to say, "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra." (laughs) Śūdra... Actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras. You know that?
Bhagatji: In Bengal kāyasthas is the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P.
Bhagatji: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras.
Prabhupāda: And originally they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas... They went with the brāhmaṇas as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is... (Bengali saying and Hindi explanation) Actually it is... If some low class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha.
Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent." And similarly, politicians, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros..., cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret.(?) Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest. They are not meant for politics or business. They are for transcendental knowledge. Kṛṣṇa conscious person should be all-inclusive. He must be a politician, he must be a brāhmaṇa, he must be a kṣatriya, he must be a śūdra—everything. All-inclusive. Because he is transcendental. In otherwise he is neither a brāhmaṇa, neither a śūdra, neither a... Yes. Nāhaṁ vipro na ca nara-patir na yatir vā. Neither of these. In other side he is everything. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. As Kṛṣṇa is sometimes cowherd boy, politician, sometimes dancing with, artist—He is everything, not one-sided. So all food is finished?
Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Therefore they require education.
Jagadīśa: They don't know the real standard of enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (pause) To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class, a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. Then? It is finished now? No.
Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jagadīśa: We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoda Bhave to support us?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters?
Hari-śauri: Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have... See, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: There are many good men. It is not that simply brāhmaṇas have gone to hell, but everyone has gone.
Guest (1): (indistinct) has failed.
Prabhupāda: Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. (Hindi) Śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma... (BG 18.42). (Hindi) Nobody's... (Hindi)
Guest (1): No, the other day I was with Natalia in Japan, and he also said the same thing, that we have no training for the leaders. And because there is no proper leadership, everything comes to a zero. You have to train a man or a woman for a particular work. That is not being done in India.
Guest (2): British did it.
Guest (1): They made their servants quite all right.
Prabhupāda: They wanted for graft, to manipulate their empire. They wanted some subordinate hands. They never wanted to give real education.
Indian man: No, but, that... Which Gosvāmī?
Prabhupāda: No, any Gosvāmī. Because the Gosvāmīs were so popular that amongst the villagers, when there was some disagreement between family members they used to come to him and say to him, "Bābā, (Hindi)." That means in that way he had to see many women many times. Why he should refuse? And what is the meaning of refusing if one, anybody... Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not refuse, but women used to offer their respect from little distance, not very near. That was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's restriction. But in our association there is no such thing as refusing anyone the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). He does not make any... And so far my institute is concerned, we do not make such thing. Everyone should be given chance. But we have restriction that we should mix with women very cautiously. You should not have any illicit sex. These things are there.
Dr. Patel: In Manipur where Arjuna made...
Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana. And Babhruvāhana was the king's daughter's son, so he remained as the adopted son of the king. Putrikā-suta. He had no son so he took the daughter's son. So this is India's... The kṣatriyas, they're not (indistinct), and some śūdras are ruling.
Dr. Patel: The śūdras are ruling the world over, not only in India. Because Nixon was less than a śūdra, they way he carried out himself, the highest authority of the most advanced state materialistically.
Prabhupāda: Now they are going to take care of it, these brāhmaṇas.
Dr. Patel: But he made a very bad show. The place where a man like...
Prabhupāda: Washington.
Dr. Patel: Oh, were...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives freedom. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parām. "Never mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa (BG 9.32). "Anyone. Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasāda." This is my propaganda.
Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those (indistinct). There will be somebody...
Prabhupāda: I know that I sincere to Kṛṣṇa, He'll do the rest.
Dr. Patel: That is right. You have extreme faith.
Prabhupāda: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is... Ananya-bhāk. No reservation. That is... Sādhur eva. He is sādhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He sādhu. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). These are the words. Require staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fifty percent, ten percent devotion...
Dr. Patel: Not even .001 percent reservation. I mean so far the bhakti's concerned. Bhaktya avyabhicareṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhuyaya (BG 14.26). Even in the Brahman platform. Not in the material platform. Sa guṇān samatītya. Sama-prakarena utītya(?). Cent percent utītya(?).
Rāmeśvara: There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day...
Prabhupāda: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, not for anyone, śūdras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.
Rāmeśvara: But in America...
Prabhupāda: No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, brāhmaṇa class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, kṣatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brāhmaṇas, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required—that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a brāhmaṇa class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. (break) It has become very much complicated.
Prabhupāda: They were trained by the first-class brāhmaṇas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he's asking advice from the saintly..., "What is my duty?" That is king. He's not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first-class. Then second-class man, executive, kṣatriyas, they will force: "You must do it!" And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that's all, śūdras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively. This is society. You require also legs; you require also heads. Simply heads will not help you. Head will give instruction, "Leg, please walk in this way." That's all, legs will move. He carries me. "Hands, give me protection." Immediately, "Yes!" A bad somebody(?) "Come on." Yes. Coming. "Belly, you produce food, sufficient, so that the legs, hands and brain, everyone will be provided with sufficient..." This way. This is society. All third-class, fourth-class men, simply going to the factory, and they are making laws. This is... What is called? Chaos. Chaotic society, no brain.
Guest (2): During the present day, sir, to whom we will treat as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya and śūdra?
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. According to the symptom.
Guest (1): Cātur-varnyam mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: So actual...
Mr. Pandiya: Bratim(?) eva tu kāraṇam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unfortunately, at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇas. Kalau śūdra-sambhavāḥ.
Guest (3) (Indian man): During Pratāparudra's time, his rāja-guru was Kavi Jiya-devācārya (?).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Every king.
Guest (3): And he was his preceptor and minister.
Prabhupāda: The Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya also was...
Guest (3): (indistinct) to Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh. It was in manuscript.
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas were so learned at that time. Therefore brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita. Panditaji. Still they're addressed. Brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita, kṣatriyas were addressed as Thakura, vaiśyas were addressed as Mahājana, and śūdras were addressed as Chaudhuri. Yes, still. In northern India this is the etiquette.
Guest (1): But, sir, now these things are so complicated only the title indicates the caste.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Nowadays it is topsy-turvied. There is no system, Kali-yuga.
Guest (2): Today somebody is a brāhmaṇa, tomorrow's he's kṣatriya, and day after tomorrow he's something else.
Prabhupāda: Udaraṁ bharatā. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. Bas, Kali-yuga. Somehow or other, if you can fill up your bellies, then you are very expert. That is going on. If you can maintain your family nicely, then you are dakṣya. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. These symptoms are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because the Kali-yuga, it is so condemned that it will be difficult to maintain one's body and soul together, that udaraṁ bharita is very expert. He's maintaining. (laughs)
Satsvarūpa: The note from Svarūpa Dāmodara? This is January 15th. (break)
Prabhupāda: Vaiśyas also. Śūdras also.
Satsvarūpa: You were saying that last night in your talk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaiṣṇava. That's all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa's sake he can act as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. It is all Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he's a śūdra. This is actual śūdra's business, servant. But he's not a śūdra. Similarly, we can act for Kṛṣṇa in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). This is to be dwelled on.(?) He's above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhūyāya means liberated. Jīvan-mukta sa ucyate. Jīvan-mukta means he may act in this life as a kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, śūdra. It doesn't matter. But he's liberated. He's not going to take birth again. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A śūdra cannot get that position. So try to understand our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. Janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra. At least nobody can defeat our philosophy in the whole world. That position we have.
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?
Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-śauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.
By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...inclined.
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... (BG 18.46). He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he'll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he's a Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?
Hari-śauri:
"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...
Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarūpa: If there's no tree?
Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpur or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?
Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Hari-śauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupāda: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-śauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: Yes. But he's our good friend and supporter. He will help us in Mombassa very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Farm project is very nice. Kṛṣṇa gives. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). This is economic problem solved. And brāhmaṇa, brain problem solved, and kṣatriya, protection problem solved, and śūdra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia. Big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter, everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature's way. Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Everything, complete arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. We have to little work. Śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ. If you sit idly, then you'll starve. Otherwise everything is there. You work little and get your all necessities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one person, God, He's supplying everyone whatever necessities.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll leave. So we should not encourage that at all. I think it's different than here.
Prabhupāda: No, their attention should be in chanting. And produce their own food, agriculture. And as soon as they get English education, then... Not "as soon as," but not all of them are fit for being educated. It is not possible. They are śūdra class of men. What he will be educated? Śūdra, vaiśya, they should learn how to plow, how to produce food. They are thinking otherwise, that "Plowing is great labor. If we educate our boys in English, they can go to the city. Immediately they get some..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Get more money, work less."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is not the position, but they're thinking like that. Everyone wants to work less and get more money. That is Marshall's theory of economic impetus. From Germany also there is a bad report.
Prabhupāda: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state-varṇāśrama ideal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is possible in Manipur.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Tilaka.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Policemen, they are dressed, but they have tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Manipur? Manipur?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Manipur. And always give respect. Though I am nobody, but...
Prabhupāda: Tilaka.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. The policemen wear tilaka. There is justice for sure.
Prabhupāda: So immediately do it. I shall go. If there is such possibility... Let us have a small ideal state. If respectable gentlemen take it, oh, it will be a great success, an ideal state throughout the whole world, Vaiṣṇava state.
Bali-mardana: Say, "Oh, you are doing something."
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's order, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). (break) ...is important, not that the learned brāhmaṇa class is important and śūdra, he is not im... He is also important. He is giving you service according to his quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). And center is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I think from Africa also they can send because...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk products. Yes, they had great milk products when I was there.
Indian man (1): Very good cows there.
Bali-mardana: We should investigate from Argentina. He said it was very cheap.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now we're not in Argentina anymore. Amsterdam.
Prabhupāda: We shall regain again.
Prabhupāda: ...the varṇāśrama established, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-division, scientific division of the society. Ideal state. Just like the legislative assembly. They should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be kṣatriya, and the productive, vaiśyas, and balance śūdra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice—just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament—there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament. They assemble. What they know? What they'll do? The whole world is mismanaged because there is no brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindā... I am proposing this because Kṛṣṇa consciousness means namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. That must be... The state must be in favor of brahminical culture and cow protection. Then everything will be all right. So Manipur is small state. If they agree, the leaders of the... It is not politics. It is betterment of the situation. And without brahminical culture, all these third-class, fourth-class, loafer class, simply by votes hooks and crooks and becomes president, Nixon and so on. Where is the betterment? It will never be.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Railway collisions, and now there is none with the Indian drivers. Oh, yeah. We don't find... Although the roads are horrible here and there's no lights, there are very few accidents.
Prabhupāda: That I have studied already, that British period, occasionally so many railway accidents. But the Indian people, since svarāja, I see no railway accidents. And they are being managed, these railway lines, by śūdra class, less-intelligent class. So they are so intelligent.
Rūpānuga: Compared to the British.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They sent their best men here.
Prabhupāda: The fireman, Indian driver, the signal man, they are not very high class men.
Rūpānuga: In America the scientists are like the blacksmiths. They're like just blacksmiths. And in India the scientists may have some culture...
Prabhupāda: Blacksmith or black snake?
Rūpānuga: Both. (laughs) But at least in India...
Prabhupāda: So organize in India. Make your headquarters in India.
Prabhupāda: No. Veda... Because the brāhmaṇas, they should be veda-paṭhī, at the same time, the public also must know the importance of Vedas. So if you prepare the public that it is useless, then how these brāhmaṇas can be maintained?
Dr. Sharma: Right now the number is dwindling so fast. The number of people who have the...
Prabhupāda: Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Kali-yuga... (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to go to the universities all over and present Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a science. Write articles, using medical science to prove that Kṛṣṇa is the origin. (indistinct)
Dr. Sharma: And there is a lot of scientific data in our ancient scriptures which I told them that if they go through from their point of view they will find lot of things in Purāṇas, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in many Vedic...
Prabhupāda: No, apart from Purāṇas and Vedic literatures, scientifically it is the modern science, according to their way, we can convince. Purāṇas you may not believe the authority. I may not believe. But scientific truth has to be accepted.
Mr. Koshi: It is the parents' responsibility.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. These are stated. It is not secret matter. When the father goes to beget child, he has to perform ritualistic ceremonies in the presence of relative, brāhmaṇas. They will understand that "He is going now to beget a child." It is not a secret thing. It is garbhādhāna. And if in a brāhmaṇa family the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not observed, then immediately he becomes a śūdra.
Mr. Koshi: What is not a secret thing?
Prabhupāda: Secret... Just like when we go and have sex with wife secretly. It is not secret.
Mr. Koshi: There is a ceremony.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is ceremony.
Mr. Koshi: Don't you think that the children should be given freedom to choose voluntarily?
Prabhupāda: Do you want to give freedom to your children?
Mr. Koshi: I am asking you.
Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the use of giving freedom to a child with a razor? He will cut his throat, that's all.
Prabhupāda: So write to him. On the basis of
"According to Bhagavad-gītā, we can lead you and make your life successful."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One problem I see... Of course, I haven't read the article in any detail, but generally they very much oppose—of course, unrightly so—they very much oppose the delineation of "śūdra." They are śūdras, these harijanas. But...
Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. We shall elevate them to go back to home, back to Godhead. Whatever he may be. Striyo vaiśyas tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayaḥ (BG 9.33). Simply by denying that "I am not śūdra," that will not help. But they must be elevated to the standard of brāhmaṇa. That we will talk later on. But we have to convince that "This world movement is going on to make the human society to the highest perfection of life. If you join, we can help you." To the perfection of life. On the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. There is no difficulty. That we can do. If you really want, there is a...
Bhakti-caru: They have got unions also, harijanas. How to approach the unions?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: Yes. All devotees.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He is well known. (break) (reading:) "The only remedy lies in the ending of their subservience to the higher castes and securing for them economic independence. But according to the Bhāgavatam, a śūdra can never be given economic independence. If they want economic independence, they should elevate themselves to the higher castes."
Prabhupāda: It will not become higher caste. They do not know. Economic independence, who is checking now? There is no such check all over the world. Just like in Bombay. Everyone can do business. So why they cannot do?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they are not intelligent enough.
Prabhupāda: That means they have no intelligence.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means they are śūdra. And if someone is a śūdra, how can you let him have his own money?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, everything requires intelligence. If you haven't got that standard of intelligence, how you can do it? Nowadays, suppose if you do some business, is there a hindrance that "You are low class, you cannot do this business." Neither the government nor the society. You can do it. Why you cannot do it? Just like in Bengal, the Marwaris are rich and Bengalis are... Their land, their country, and their naturals. And the Marwaris have big (indistinct). It is your incapability. Why don't you admit that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at this question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It says "Who are these harijanas? What is their origin? What sins did they commit?"
Prabhupāda: Then you answer that.
Bhakti-caru: You told Professor Kotovsky that this caste system is existing everywhere, in every society in the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In the body there is caste system. The head is the brāhmaṇa, the hand is the kṣatriya, the belly is the vaiśya and the leg is the śūdra. Everything head, that will not help. There must be leg also. But it must be conducted under the guidance of the head. Then it is all right. If the head is not there and leg is utilized for jumping, that is monkey's business. The leg must work according to the dictation of the head. The hand must work according to the dictation of the head. "The caste system should be abolished." What is the caste system? There is no caste system. Everyone is śūdra. Who is a brāhmaṇa now, qualified, except one or two in our camp?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article ends by saying, "Let harijanas be their own pathfinders and let them lead themselves from darkness to light, from pain to pleasure."
Prabhupāda: That you do not know. Otherwise you would have done it.
Ram Jethmalani: (laughing) You don't blame me.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, it is not blaming, it is fact. It is the real understanding. Without evidence, without proof, how law can be established? That's a good method. So he is speaking like lawyer, that "You want evidence, you want witness: see here." Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So that is five hundred years ago. Now in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement you see practically. Drunkards, illicit sex-hunters, and so on, so on, they have become saintly persons. This is the effect of it. So... And Kṛṣṇa also says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). It doesn't matter. Pāpa-yoni. According to our Vedic system, low-class, those who are born in low-grade family, they are called pāpa-yoni. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, lower than that—śūdrādhaḥ. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). They are called pāpa-yoni, untouchables. Of course, nowadays these things cannot go on. But these are there. So Kṛṣṇa says, ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Anyone born in anywhere, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Mām eva vyapāśritya. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, everyone can be elevated. So what is this harijana? We can do.
Dr. Sharma: So one has to take the words of the guru.
Prabhupāda: Therefore in our Hindu society there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, so that everyone knows that "This man is this man's father." That is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. And especially in brāhmaṇa family, if there is no garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, immediately he becomes a śūdra, because cannot give real identity of the father.
Dr. Sharma: It is most unfortunate that in the West and elsewhere, I have found the people with a great interest and enthusiasm maintain a pedigree chart of the Pomeranian and Alsation dog in their house.
Prabhupāda: This is gotra.
Dr. Sharma: Yes. They maintain a pedigree chart of Alsation dogs and Pomeranian dogs in their houses.
Prabhupāda: Our this gotra...
Guest (2): Not the human being they don't keep it. It is only the dogs they keep in Western countries.
Prabhupāda: Dogs?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is saying that just like with breeding of dogs or any animals, they keep a pedigree chart: "Here is the father, here is the father," pedigree. But with human beings they don't bother to do this. With the animals they are doing. Just like with our cows...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say animal civilization. It is animal civilization. They are interested with animals.
Prabhupāda: And they have manufactured this?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "The whole city is expected to... The temple... The planetarium will be ready in three years." But how is that possible to be built...? And that "The whole city will be done in ten years." Says here, "A Vedic city with fifty thousand brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras living around a Kṛṣṇa temple."
Prabhupāda: So they have criticized that "Your city, there will be forty...," "Aurobindo..." You have seen it?
Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Asked whether his city would not meet the same fate as Auroville..."
Prabhupāda: That...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It was started nine years ago near Pondicherry with the same target of fifty thousand but has still a population of only four hundred, mostly foreigners." In other words, this is... The idea is that just as Auroville is a farce, any one of us, we're also farcical.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... It is very good farce. That is the... Yes.
Girirāja: That's true.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Mūrkhasya lakuṭauṣadhi(?). When a person is fool number one, beat him. That's all. Ḍhol gobara...(?) Tulasī dāsa has said, ḍhol gobara śūdra paśu nārī, ei saba śāsana ke adhikārī. Ḍhol, drum, you have to bring it to the tune by beating, "tung, tung." Gobara. Gobara means fool person. Paśu, animal. Ḍhol, gobara, pa..., śūdra, and nārī, woman. They should be punished to bring them into order. Ei saba śāsana ke adhikārī. Otherwise they will spoil. A barking dog, you cannot pacify him, "My dear dog, don't bark." It will disturb him: "No!" Ḍhol gobara śūdra paśu nārī, ei saba śāsana ke... So anyone who is denying the existence of God, he is a rascal number one and beat him with shoes. Bas. He is being beaten with shoes by nature.
Girirāja: By the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), going on. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). But they are so shameless, neither they do know what is going to happen. Some rascal the other day complained, "There are many orphans." The orphan means no father? Does orphan means he has no father? Orphan means he has father; the father does not take care. That's all. You cannot deny, "There is no father."
Kārttikeya: These fifty application... Fifty posts and five thousand applications, twenty-five thousand applications.
Prabhupāda: No, no. There were some thousands applications. In education. (Hindi)
Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Then śūdra-karma. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Hindi) So strictly if you follow Bhagavad-gītā as it is, oh, then there will be heaven, everything. (Hindi) Kitna time waste... (Hindi) Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Hindi) ...simple life... (Hindi)
Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) This I've seen that in our day it has been found first-class antiseptic. (Hindi) Particularly when we have got typhus and that sort of sicknesses in the home, it is the ground gobar that the house is cleaned and...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is very dangerous civilization. If you want to save them from this dangerous civilization, you must push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise there is no other way. (Hindi) Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīra. (Hindi) Yato mata tato patha. (Hindi) Secular state. (Hindi) (break) (Hindi) Prāyaścitta-vimarṣaṇam. (Hindi) Do you think they'll do?
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Indian man (2): In Gītā I am...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation continues for some time) Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. (Hindi)
Mr. Dwivedi: But now everybody has become a śūdra.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (more Hindi conversation) So give him photograph, my photograph. Bring some photograph.
Mr. Dwivedi: All right. (Hindi) There are tentative date... (Hindi) So that can be fixed, that Your Holiness will be reaching there about the 6th.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That letter...
Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) In that letter, whatever changes you want to make, make changes. Kindly put the date 6th, that His Grace should be reaching Gwalior on the 6th.
Prabhupāda: Do... Otherwise call him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a picture in the newspaper showing the students going to school, and each one of them was shown as a dog with a hat, graduation hat on, comparing the students to dogs. There was a cartoon, very apt.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are creating so many dogs. "Can you give me any service?" "No vacancy! Get out!" And somebody becomes a... "All right, a bit of bread..." And: "Oh, oh, you are so kind." These śūdras... The number of śūdras have created this world situation so bad. (break) In your country also the farmers wants to go to the city to become educated and never comes back again. They are no more interested.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Actually Paramānanda was telling me that, you know, he's made some very close friends amongst the farming people, not our own people. So every year he goes back to near New Vrindaban, 'cause he made friends with the local people there, and he spends a week with them, and Devakī-nandana also. So he says that now he helps them. Whenever he goes, he helps them with the farming because their sons are all starting to marry the girls from the city, and they're not so much inclined towards the farming work. So the father and mother, even though they're getting older, they have to more and more work because the children are not helping them.
Prabhupāda: The city girl, she does not wish to come.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is āśraya, electrified. Sākṣād-dharitvena samastra-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva, kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Priya viśaya. Therefore he can act as āśraya. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Others simply wasting time.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The mental attitude of the inquirer or the seeker in this bhakti process, you also said, it plays a very important role in understanding this relationship between the jīva, or individual life, ātmā, and Paramātmā, these two relationships. So we proposed that since it is based on psychological interactions, willing, feeling and the thinking, so the attitude should be humble and it should not be arrogant, and it should feel the limitations. Actually we try to bring all the brahminical qualities in order to study this bhakti-yoga in a scientific manner, and we presented like that, briefly, in a scientific community, and it was mildly accepted. They were just thinking that...
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the society there must be qualified brāhmaṇa. The all rascals, śūdras, professors...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in a scientific experiment we have so many conditions...
Prabhupāda: Just this morning I gave: bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa... Nanda Mahārāja. Bring that book.
Prabhupāda: So people were inclined to send their children to gurukula. Now they are inclined to send their children to cinema, this, that... A difficult task, to institute. Loafer class, they should be trained up as śūdras, in carpentry, moving(?)... It doesn't, do not require academic education. Simply make a skill. They'll learn.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not after the loafer class.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not loafer. They are also useful. But they are... Bringing them to the education, university, they are becoming loafer, ironclad. As soon as the low-class men are given education, he thinks, "Now I have become educated, baḍa bāpu. Why shall I work as a carpenter? I must have credits here." And they're bribing in government office, and sixty percent of the clerks-useless. They do not know how to make file, cumberous. Because everyone is going in New Delhi. And all fourth-class men are admitted. I have seen. If you have to find out an old file, you have to wait six months. Because these people are neither for this purpose nor that purpose.
Prabhupāda: Now your business is bring students. That is first duty. Let people convinced. Before going to the foreign countries, I had a very bad experience. I asked so many men to give students, Vedic students. "Swamiji, (Hindi) We have to earn money." Nobody wants that the children should be honest, brāhmaṇa, brahmacārī. Nobody wants. He wants all thieves, rogues, cunning cheater. "So the money bring." That is the difficulty. So you have to face this difficulty. But try to. (Hindi) Loafer class, śūdra, they want. (Hindi) Still, keep an ideal institution. That experience I had. When, before going foreign countries, I tried, all friends: "Swamiji, (Hindi)"
Dr. Sharma: Indians also?
Prabhupāda: Indians? Foreigners, they were hippies; they come.
Akṣayānanda: Before he went to America.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, being disappointed here, I went to America.
Śatadhanya: Feeling much better. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...man and woman happy, and in happiness, in peace of mind, make progress, spiritual life. That is the Vedic civilization. The guide is there, brāhmaṇa. The protection is there, kṣatriya. The food is there, vaiśya. And labor is there, śūdra. Combine together, live very happily, peacefully, in the society. You'll find still. The aim is how to realize God. Village to village, you'll find temples.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw when going to the bank yesterday. We passed through the bhangi colony, but there was a temple there. They have their temple, even the bhangis.
Prabhupāda: In our childhood we have seen. The bhangis, they carry stool, walk in the morning with stool, so neat and clean. And if you go to the house, you cannot understand that this is a bhangi's house. So neat and clean. And bathing their utensils, their sitting place. After taking thorough bath, sometimes they are worshiping Deity.
| Page Title: | Sudra (Conv. 1976 - 1977) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 22 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=120, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 120 |