Prabhupāda: Especially in those days, only the brāhmaṇas were considered the highest in the society, and even the kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they all calculated to, in the group of śūdras. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was allowing everyone, the Muhammadans, the śūdras, the low class, the high class, the brāhmaṇas... He was amalgamating everyone. So these brāhmaṇas, they took objection. "He is making a disastrous movement! The prestige of the brāhmaṇas will go." So they became very much dissatisfied and they concluded that "We shall go to the magistrate and file our complaint that He is doing against Hindu religion and He's crying always 'Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa' loudly. The Lord is sleeping. He will be disturbed and there will be disaster, Lord being angry." In this way they filed complaint.
Sudra (Conv. 1967 - 1973)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hayagrīva: Just give me the brief summary.
Prabhupāda: Brief summary... In this scene Caitanya Mahāprabhu became the student. Not exactly student. He inquired and Rāmānanda Rāya answered. So the importance of the scene is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not follow the formality, only the sannyāsīs should be the spiritual master. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can be spiritual master. And to show this example practically, although He was sannyāsī and brāhmaṇa and Rāmānanda Rāya was a śūdra and a gṛhastha, householder, still He became like a student and inquired Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya felt some, I mean to say, hesitation that "How can I take the position of a teacher to a sannyāsī?" Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "No, no. Don't hesitate." He stated that either one may be a sannyāsī or he may be householder or one may be a brāhmaṇa or śūdra, it doesn't matter. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can take the place of teacher. So that was His, I mean to say, gift. Because in Indian society it is simply taken that the brāhmaṇas and the sannyāsī can be spiritual master. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "No. Anyone can become spiritual master provided he's conversant with the science." And the summary of the discussion was how to elevate oneself in the highest perfection of love of Godhead. And that love of Godhead was described, existed, I mean to say, superexcellently in Rādhārāṇī. So in the bhāva, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī. And Rāmānanda Rāya, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī's associates Lalitā-sakhī, both of them embraced and began to dance in ecstasy. That will be the end of the scene. Both of them began to dance in ecstasy.
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: Have they encountered any problems in, like out on the Hollywood Boulevard? Police action or telling them to move or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only that depends on the whims of the police. Sometimes they say, "You are blocking our roads." Sometimes, "Oh, you are doing nice." So that depends on their temperament.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So far Buddhist philosophy is concerned...
Interviewer: And that's why I wondered if there were prohibitions within, you know, the outside contact with society that you make.
Prabhupāda: But our formula is that one should live... It is called sato vṛtteḥ. The vṛtti, the profession or the means of livelihood, must be very fair. Must be very fair. Sato vṛtteḥ. Because association will contaminate my mind and my intelligence, therefore, as far as possible, sato vṛtti. And this sato vṛtti is a Sanskrit word. According to the purification of profession, livelihood, one is called a brāhmaṇa, one is called a kṣatriya, one is called a vaiśya, one is called a śūdra, one is called lower than the śūdras. You see? So that is also... But in this age one cannot stick to a particular profession. Just like for the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas... For brāhmaṇas it is enjoined that they should learn scripture and they should preach scripture. That's all. They have six kinds of occupation. One of the main is this, to learn and to teach. But at the present moment everything has changed. So there is change. But as far as possible, we don't accept a profession or any job which is abominable.
Brahmānanda: Right in the home.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Tulasī dāsa's remark. So in many passages of his poetry he has not done very justice to woman. And another poetry, he writes, dhol guṇār śūdra narī. Dhol guṇār śūdra narī ihe sab śaśan ke adhikārī.(?) Dhol guṇār paśu śūdra narī, ihe sab śaśan ke adhikārī. Dhol, dhol means drum, mṛdaṅga. Gunar, guṇār means... What is called English? A fool, fool. Illiterate fool, what is one word?
Brahmānanda: Buffoon?
Prabhupāda: Maybe buffoon. Buffoon is sometimes troublesome. But guṇār means he doesn't understand very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Dull, dull. Dhol guṇār, dhol means drum and guṇār means dull. Śūdra, and the laborer class. Three. Dhol, guṇār, śūdra, and paśu, household animals, just like cows, dogs.
Brahmānanda: Pet.
Prabhupāda: Pet, like that. Dhol guṇār śūdra paśu and narī. Nari means woman. (laughs) Just see. He has classified the narī amongst these class, dhol, guṇār, śūdra, paśu, narī. Ihe sab śaśan ke adhikārī. Sasan ke adhikārī means all these are subjected for punishment. And what about the guest?
Govinda dāsī: Oh, the guest? It's coming.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: if you use sexuality for giving birth to nice child, not cats and dogs, that is spiritual. But people are using sexuality for other purposes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śāstra-viruddho(?), according to religious ritualistic way, if one, when one uses sex life that is (indistinct). That is, therefore in the, according to Vedic system, therefore, having sex life with wife, there is a great ceremony which is called garbhādhāna ceremony, and all the higher caste, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, śūdra, er vaiśyas especially, they are to observe ten kinds of reformative process. The first process is while giving birth to a child there is a great ceremony, garbhādhāna. So it is not a secret. To beget nice child, then there will be nice population, then there will be peace and prosperity. If you beget cats and dogs, how can you expect peace and prosperity? Living in the same dog society, cat society then there will be peace? No.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (4): Mahārāja, do the Western and Eastern societies respond differently to this call...
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot say that. Two plus two equal to four everywhere, East and West. There is no difference, East and West. It is scientific. It is vijñaṇa. So when you call of, talk of science, there is no difference of understanding in the East and West. The same thing is understood.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.
Guest (4): Where are they to be trained, then? How are they...
Prabhupāda: That we are proposing. When we open a center we shall train anyone. It doesn't matter whether he is born in a śūdra family or brāhmaṇa family. Just like they are born in a different family other than brāhmaṇa but they are now brāhmaṇa because after being trained up.
Guest (4): (Hindi) ...regard, you said that monarchy and democracy, both are systems which cannot help this cause. Then...
Prabhupāda: No, why cannot help? If... Monarchy means the king was properly trained up. Similarly, in the democracy, if people are properly trained up, then they will vote for nice men and there will be nice government. Now, because the people are not trained, they are practically asses.
Prabhupāda: Perhaps in other engagement he cannot dance. Actually there is no problem. Why there should be problem? There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, human being are 400... Out of that, 80%, they are uncivilized. So all these living entities have no problem for eating. This 20% or 15% people who are called as civilized, they have problem. They have created problem. At least in India, say, hundred years before, there was no problem for eating, even for the śūdra class or any... No, there was no... The society was so made, there was no problem. Why fifty years? In 1933 or '36 in Vṛndāvana somebody wanted milk, some pilgrimage amongst ourselves. So went to a house. So, "Can you supply us some milk?" "Ah, how much you want?" So it was about ten pounds. So she supplied immediately, one woman, and when she was offered price, "Oh, why shall I take a price for ten or twenty pounds of milk? Oh, you can take it." That is my practical experience. Milk was so freely available. So simply we are creating problems by godless civilization. That is a fact.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest: Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Unfortunately there is no saṁskāra at the present moment. So therefore they remain śūdra. A śūdra means fourth-class. So how a fourth-class man can speculate on the science of God?
Guest (2): But śūdras are not allowed to upanayana-saṁskāra.
Prabhupāda: No. No, no, no. Now, don't take that way. One who does not take saṁskāra, he is śūdra, because janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born śūdra. But if one does not accept the saṁskāras, he remains a śūdra, not that śūdras are not allowed to take saṁskāra. Then how it is, that janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ?
Prabhupāda: There are many instances. But this very word, "by birth one is śūdra," so there is no discrimination that "You are not śūdra. I am not...," by birth, abodha-jāto, because he is born foolish rascal. Now, by saṁskāra, by culture, by education, he becomes dvija, second birth. The practical example is these European and American students. They were doing all nonsense but since they have come to guru their life is reformed; therefore they are dvija. Saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, veda-paṭhet... Now, when he becomes dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas, not as a śūdra. When we say śūdra has no right to study Vedas, that means he will not be able to understand. Just like you became lawyer, but the condition is, unless you become graduate, unless you have graduated yourself, you cannot enter law college. That does not mean law is prohibited for anyone. It is open for everyone, but first of all you make yourself university graduate; then enter law. Similarly, everyone is śūdra.
Guest (2): A particular standard of understanding should be qualified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless he has got saṁskāra, he is enlightened by culture and knowledge, unless he has become dvija, then there is no authority for studying Vedas. Veda-paṭhet. After one has become dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, and veda-paṭhed bhaved vipraḥ. Vipra. Then he becomes... Gradually increasing, from śūdra he comes to dvija, then vipra. And after being vipra, after studying all the Vedas, when he realizes Brahman, then he is brāhmaṇa. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that, gradual process, gradual process and to make him a qualified brāhmaṇa. And when he becomes brāhmaṇa, then he knows Brahman. Then he makes spiritual progress. Without... Therefore, without becoming brāhmaṇa nobody can make spiritual progress. That is the door of spiritual knowledge. Then he makes progress, makes progress. So after understanding Brahman knowledge, then he comes to Paramātmā knowledge, then he comes to Bhāgavata knowledge.
Prabhupāda: But it has come into use. Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.
Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad-gītā—perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā—there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ (BG 4.13). It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma. (break) So have you seen this little, how we are translating this? You can see little. Original śloka, its transliteration, then its English equivalent, then translation, then purport, each and every verse is being done like that, whole Bhāgavatam Purāṇa.
Prof. Kotovsky: And the śūdras are workers, menial workers. But here you have no vaiśyas from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them kṣatriyas. And then śūdras, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class.
Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya...
Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.
Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.
Prabhupāda: Now one thing... The other day I was speaking to some... Where I was? In Bombay, I think, I was speaking some respectable gentlemen that "Kṛṣṇa says:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
Kṛṣṇa says, 'Even those who are low-born, pāpa-yoni—the striya, vaiśya and śūdra, they are also included—but by accepting Me, accepting my shelter, they are also elevated to the transcendental position.' Now, why the higher class of Hindu society, they neglected this injunction of Bhagavad-gītā? Suppose one is pāpa-yoni. Kṛṣṇa says that 'They can be elevated to the transcendental position if they accept Me.' Why this propaganda was not done by the higher class people so that the so-called pāpa-yoni could be elevated? Why you rejected them? The result was that the Mohammedans... Instead of accepting them, you rejected them, and they have partitioned, and they have gone away, and they have become eternal enemy of India." You see? So this is the first time that we are trying to elevate to the highest position of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even one is in the pāpa-yoni. It doesn't matter because soul is pure. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Just like I asked Gaurasundara to go to Hawaii. He was just a boy, but he did. Now there is center, nice. So I'm very glad. So you are also doing that. It doesn't matter whether gṛhastha. Karandhara is gṛhastha. But we have to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is our main criteria. So we have to see in what position I can serve better Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. Otherwise, either gṛhastha or sannyāsī, there's no difference. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,
- kibā vipra, kibā śūdra, nyāsī kene naya
- yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya
- (CC Madhya 8.128)
Preaching work is for the guru. So Kṛṣṇa... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says it doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or vānaprastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness and preaches, then he is guru. That's all. So we have to become like that. It doesn't matter what we are, but whether I am preaching nicely. That is required. But still there is some regulative principles like sannyāsī and brahmacārī will be like this, gṛhastha will be like this. That is the external. But the main business is preaching.
Śyāmasundara: We don't want to fight. None of our boys want to fight.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā.
Prabhupāda: Huh? That you have to take it.
Reporter: The condition is to follow the...
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?
Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.
Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.
Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ(?) platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says,
- māṁ ca (yo) 'vyabhicāreṇa
- bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
- sa guṇān samatītya etān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brāhmaṇa. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇḍāla.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be brāhmaṇa or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya, you remain brāhmaṇa, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Just like Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya. He was a fighter, he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was..., he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not..., I am..." Yes. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.
Prabhupāda: So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā. Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem? These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture. Just like Kṛṣṇa says,
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class.
Prabhupāda: That give your finger just to keep the (indistinct).
Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya. That is very unfair. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that "He is a śūdra. He'll miss it."
Dr. Singh: So therefore he...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like śūdra. In the Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajña.
Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of Viśvadeva(?), the śūdras should be given money so they can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child, you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. (Bengali) The monkey is decorated with pearl necklace. Even Hanumān.
Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, (Bengali). (Bengali), the cultivator, what does he know about the taste of liquor? These are very instructive(?).
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you... Even if you are able to give everyone nice buildings and nice motor car... Already a few motor cars you have got, there is scarcity of space. From practical point of view. 99% of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motor cars, it has created problem. Where to park the motor car? How to supply petrol.
Prabhupāda: But in our India... Of course, Lord Buddha was kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas were allowed to eat meat by hunting.
Dai Nippon representative: Hunting.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king—the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service.
Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there—everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.
Guest (2): What are your qualifications for a śūdra?
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is śūdra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a śūdra. A brāhmaṇa never serves anyone, a kṣatriya never serves anyone, a vaiśya never serves anyone. A śūdra... Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). They want some service: "Give me some money, sir. I am helpless." "All right, you work like this." That is śūdra.
Guest (2): So in other words, all dependent employees, they're all śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of the śāstra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra."
Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa.
Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"—the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"—qualification. "He's vaiśya,"—qualification. "He's śūdra—by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: (SB 7.11.35) "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a brāhmaṇa family, but if he has got the śūdra qualities, then he should be śūdra. And a man born of a śūdra family, if he has got the qualities of brāhmaṇa, then he must be designated as brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: And I was in month of June, still in the morning the wind was so cold. And there is double glass in every window, double glass. Just like aeroplane, double. And at half past eleven in the month of June, when in your country it is half past eleven o'clock, that is evening. And at half past three o'clock, morning. And still the little night, that is just like dusk; it is not completely dark. And laborer class... (speaks to someone in Hindi) Keep it open. (break) (indistinct) Every corner of the street, Lenin's picture. All books are sold, they are Lenin. No other literature. You cannot get taxi. Poor men, they cannot pay for taxi. Very little number. When I was talking with Professor Kotovsky, so I asked him, "Now we shall go. Get me taxi." So he, "Yes, it is Moscow." So he got down, he personally showed me, "Instead of taking taxi waiting, please go in this way when you go to your hotel." He showed me shortcut. People are walking, and they are running for the bus. It is not at all a rich country. A poor country. And if you see the shops, you will find old (indistinct), just like antique shop. Because you cannot purchase generally, everything you have to purchase from government store, and in queue. It is botheration. And actually in India it is going to happen like this. Everything you have to purchase in queue.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.
Devotee (2): After King Parīkṣit, then it divided up, that soon after?
Prabhupāda: Divided? They are also already divided. But the culture diminished. Because the center of culture was India, Delhi. So as the power diminished, the maintenance of the culture diminished, and by contact with other types of aboriginal, they learned eating meat and gradually degraded. And they discovered different kinds of religion because... Just like at the present moment Christians are protesting why there should not be abortion. So they wanted to degraded. So the Indian culture did not allow, so the separate type of religion came out. This is the (indistinct). They wanted, "Why there should not be meat-eating?" But Indian culture would not allow, so they become Mohammedans, they become Christians, like this. Even in India all the..., what are these Mohammedans? The Mohammedans, they are lower class men, less than śūdra. But Hindus, higher class, they would not touch it. But when the Mohammedans, that we will be on equal right, they, there is a (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ: (BG 7.15) "Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."
Paramahaṁsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world....
Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development means technologists; they are śūdras.
Paramahaṁsa: Prior to the growth of technology...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are śūdras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of śūdras. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age, all are śūdras." Only we are trying to become brāhmaṇa. Otherwise all śūdras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arms, no mouth, so what is this body?
Paramahaṁsa: Corpse.
Paramahaṁsa: The question I have, Prabhupāda is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means śūdras. That I have already said.
Paramahaṁsa: But now they listen more to scientists.
Prabhupāda: That means śūdra. Śūdras are interested to hear from śūdra.
Paramahaṁsa: For example in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like a śūdra, he cleans in the road for money. They are going as professor but the category is the same. You don't make any distinction between that sweeper and this professor. Or a hog and cat and dog. The hog is also working hard, whole day and night for stool, eating. So this man is also working like that. Beyond that he has no other knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra. Unless he gets that post, he'll starve. He has got some talent in some particular subject but he must get some service. By serving others, he'll be able to utilize his talent and get some money, then he'll eat. This is śūdra's business. Dog's business. Just like a dog unless he has got a nice master, his position is very precarious. A street dog. Nobody will care neither it is (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said,
- kibā vipra kibā nyāsī śūdra kene naya
- yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya
- (CC Madhya 8.128)
"It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. (Hindi) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra. It doesn't matter. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Just like Śaṅkarācārya, (Hindi) First of all, you become sannyāsa. Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa. Nobody else.
Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already... A brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa- like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma, including, that "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't... You cannot act as a brāhmaṇa, you cannot act as a kṣatriya, neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... This is the protection.
Guest (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and...
Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by... This is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman, strī, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu. And they are compared with śūdras. So strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām. For these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu, Mahābhārata is Vedic literature. But for their understanding... They could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literatures.
Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that?
Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books?
Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We don't have room to keep all.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement?
Guest (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed: the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra, just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know. They simply think that dog lies down on the floor, on the road... "We have got nice, best apartment. Therefore we are civilized." So that is their defect.
Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.
Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating.
Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.
Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as...
Reporter: Vaiśyas.
Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.
Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jāti-dharma, and creating varṇa-saṅkara... Varṇa-saṅkara, just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra. So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna. So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra. So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra? Nobody.
Reporter: (laughs) Nobody.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra. No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdra, or less than śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the kṣatriya's karma. These the brāhmaṇa's karma. These are the, eh, vaiśya's karma. These are the śūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ.
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says,
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
So even one is śūdra, we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra. But Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ, even if you are lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra. There is remedy also.
Reporter: Even the śūdras can...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra. Why śūdra? Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). They become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ. Everything is there in the śāstras. If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras, everything can be remodeled, everything can be good. There is no cause for disappointment. But unfortunately they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya. Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti. One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra, he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham: neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? It is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya (BG 18.66).
Reporter: Yes, means vairāgya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise we are embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, śūdra-dharma, so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharma.
Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God.
Mother: You should be self-supporting in that way.
Prabhupāda: Self-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything.
Schumacher: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions.
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time. From practical point of view, they're unable to do anything. Because the original idea was to stop war. But the war is going on, fighting is going on. They could not stop it.
Prabhupāda: And another place, Bhāgavatam, there is statement of Nārada, advising Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam. There are symptoms, brāhmaṇa system, śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 18.42). It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, abhivyañjakaṁ varṇa. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). This is the injunction of Nārada, "The symptoms, brahminical symptoms, if it is found in the person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. And if the śūdra symptoms are visible in a person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he should be accepted as śūdra." And in the Jābāla Upaniṣad, the Satyakāma Jābāla... So Satyakāma was born of a maidservant, but he wanted to become brāhmaṇa. So he went to Gautama Muni: "Sir, make your disciple." In those days, Vaidic brahminical culture, without becoming brāhmaṇa, he cannot be initiated. Initiation means to make one brāhmaṇa. So, according to our Gosvāmī process, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has given us the book, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa.
Professor: Do you initiate girls?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So many girls. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim.
Professor: That's...
Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. Give him, Paṇḍita Mahāśaya.
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
Professor: Just like Gārgī and... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gārgī. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect.
Prabhupāda: No, in Bhagavad-gītā it is said: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). And Bhāgavata says,
- yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ
- puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam
- yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta
- tat tenaiva vinirdiśet
- (SB 7.11.35)
These are clear indications that brāhmaṇa is not from particular family. And Kṛṣṇa says, another place,
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ
- (BG 9.32)
Everyone, Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone. Kṛṣṇa does not say that only... He says that kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyāḥ. Everyone is accepted. Why not the brāhmaṇas? But te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Those who are not even born in brāhmaṇa family... Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, kibā vipra kiba śūdra..
Ambassador: Oh. Kibā vipra kiba śūdra...
Prabhupāda: Kibā vipra kibā nyāsī śūdra kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. He becomes spiritual master. It doesn't matter what he is. Śūdra, or vipra, it doesn't matter. The Rāmānanda Rāya, he was a śūdra. According to social position, he was a śūdra. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu took lessons from him.
Ambassador: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is in the Eighth Chapter of the Madhya Khaṇḍa.
Ambassador: So I'll remember it, sir.
Prabhupāda: Thank you, sir.
Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic.
Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.
Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brāhmaṇa. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brāhmaṇa. He is pulling on ṭhelā, no brāhmaṇa quality, neither work is brāhmaṇa, but still, he is paṇḍitjī. I have seen it in Calcutta.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think so. Prabhupāda: Kṣat means injury, and triya means one who delivers. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, immediately took his sword, "Oh, why you are injuring one cow in my kingdom?" The kṣatriya's business is to give protection to the citizens from being injured by others. That is called kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa means whose knowledge is so perfect that he knows what is God. That is brāhmaṇa. And śūdra means one who laments. Śocati ti śūdra. (?) Śocati.
Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the doctors are going on strike now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are śūdras. Therefore, because it is the society of śūdras everywhere, there is confusion. No brain. Simply śocati, "want, want, want, want, want." And in brahminical culture, you will find even he is very poor brāhmaṇa, no source of income, no fixation of foodstuff even, but he is happy. He is happy. He is happy by his knowledge. He'll satisfy himself. If he does not get his food, then he will think that "This day Kṛṣṇa desired that I should not have my food. Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Therefore in Vedic culture, other section, the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas, they would call the brāhmaṇas to take food. Brāhmaṇa-bhojana. Because they know, "The brāhmaṇas, they will starve; still they will not ask anybody to give him food." Therefore brāhmaṇa-bhojana.
Guru dāsa: But the question was if one is knowingly going to be kicked out.
Prabhupāda: No, knowingly, no sane man will go. But because he is ignorant, he is making plan to be happy, and one day it comes, "Kick out! Go out!" That is ignorance. Therefore śūdra. Therefore our perfection of life should be, that is recommended in the śāstra, brahma-saukhyam anantam. You should aspire of happiness which is unlimited. You will never be kicked out from that happiness. That is the idea. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This is the instruction. You must try for a place where you get eternal life, eternal bliss, eternal knowledge. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Take for example a man is representing himself as brāhmaṇa but he's doing something else. That should be stopped. You are doing the business of a śūdra, why you are claiming as brāhmaṇa? This is government duty.
Guest: Now say this person who is doing wrong(?)...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: ...is very touchy about his being śūdra?
Prabhupāda: No, why he should be?
Guest: No, but he thinks that all of us look down upon him. So one has to be very careful. And I think that if you could say something about the real Harijana.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I'll speak, that I'll speak. Now, if he is coming from the śūdra community...
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...but he is now minister...
Guest: He's a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lady Guest: Not even brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Not exactly, yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's.... Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa, śauryaṁ tejaḥ, yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta, if these qualities are found somewhere else.... Suppose a śūdra, a caṇḍāla, if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra.
Prabhupāda: There are many instances but this is the injunction of the śāstra. And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family. Nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the MD examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brāhmaṇa, then I make my treatment with you?" Nobody asks that. So, this is śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brāhmaṇism, śūdraism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture spoiled.
Guest: Because if a brāhmaṇa goes on drinking and abusing...
Prabhupāda: That is not brāhmaṇa. How can that be brāhmaṇa? That is a śūdra, caṇḍāla. Then what is the difference between a.... But they are claiming brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra.
Guest: No, no.
Prabhupāda: It is not allowed.
Prabhupāda: You can produce bolt and nut but you cannot eat. So this is going on. Formerly everyone was in village. Everyone was interested to produce food. Everyone had got land. Even the brāhmaṇas they were not working. The śūdras would work and they produce half and half. Government would tax only 25%.
Prabhupāda: Ah, therefore the whole world is in confusion. All rascals, they are busy. What is the use of such business? Like monkey. Monkey's very busy, always, but doing harm. That's all. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, ugra-karmāṇaḥ kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ. These rascals, they are busy just to destroy the whole world and do the mischief. That's all. Actually, they are doing so. That we also... In English language, sometimes it is said, "A sharp razor in the hands of a child." The child... That is this imitation. They want to imitate their father. So if he imitates the razor sharp, then he will create havoc. So these rascals, they have got now all power, and therefore creating havoc. They do not know how to use it. According to Vedic principle, the śūdras, they should not be given more money, the worker class. Now the worker class is given more money. So what they'll do? They'll produce drunkards. That's all. In America, it is evident. They do not know how to use money. So therefore we see, fifty-two percent drunkards in your country.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmaṇa. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guṇa, karma, superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.
Yaśomatīnandana: Well I realized afterwards that I was lower than a śūdra, because actually it was my duty and I rejected it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Ṭhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed-Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service. Then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra. If a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think he's a physicist now. I think he came here about one year before I came here.
Prabhupāda: So if he's in service, then he's śūdra.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: He's śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). As soon as one accepts service of a master, immediately śūdra.
Yaśomatīnandana: True brāhmaṇas even didn't care for kings.
Umāpati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the constitution requiring separation of church and state, what they call separation of church and state in this country.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated.
Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.
Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha, not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā. There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: The śūdra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. (break)
Prabhupāda: This idea also. Now there should be examination whether so-called brāhmaṇas, they are actually following the brāhmaṇa regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again śūdra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, "Now chant this Gāyatrī-mantra." He must.
| Page Title: | Sudra (Conv. 1967 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Serene |
| Created: | 22 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=105, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 105 |