Individuality of every living being is a fact. Therefore in the actual field also, we see that we have got difference of opinion. What I think, you may not agree with me because you have got your individuality. Similarly, your thinking may not be agreed by another gentleman. So everyone has got his individuality. That is a fact. Not that the... Just like there is a class of philosophers who says that the soul is a homogeneous, one entity, and after the destruction, after the annihilation of this body, the soul, as a substance, will mix up. Just like water. You keep in different pots. In different pots you keep water. So the water takes the shape of the pot, the bowl, round bowl. You keep water. The water takes the shape of round. So similarly, there are thousands of, or millions of, waterpots, and suppose all the waters are mixed up. Then there is no distinction. Just like they were in the pots. So their theory is that when a soul is liberated then the, that it mixes up with the Supersoul. Just like a drop water taken from the sea water and again put it into the sea, it mixes up. It loses its identity.
Substance (Lectures)
Expressions researched:
"substance"
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Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
You cannot say, "I'm eating, but I'm not satisfied of my hunger." That is impossible. This is not possible. Then you are not eating. Or you are eating, but it is being devoured by the worms within your intestines. Sometimes it happens. If there are many worms within the intestines, you go on voraciously eating, but you don't get strength because the eating substance, the essence, is taken by the worms. Therefore the worm treatment is there to kill the worms. Otherwise they will eat everything. You'll feel hungry, but will not get any strength. This is the worm disease. So if I am actually rendering devotional service and I'm not getting any happiness, that means there is some māyā's play. Otherwise there is no such reasoning. He must feel happy. Then he has to rectify the process of his service. Not to change but rectify the process. (aside) What is that? (laughs) It cannot be. If you are actually executing devotional service, you must feel happy. If you don't feel happy, then you are not executing. There is some flaw. Yes.
We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, not that like gramophone.(?) No. We are associating with Kṛṣṇa. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ. By chanting Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa is present on your tongue. Unless we realize in that way, then it is the period of nāma-aparādha or nāmābhāsa. Not nāmābhāsa—nāma-aparādha. This is nāma-aparādha, to consider that the name is different from the person. As we have got experience in the material world that the name is different from the substance. If you want to drink water, simply if you chant "water, water, water," your thirst will not be satisfied. But in spiritual world, the absolute world, the name and the person is the same. Otherwise, why we stress so much on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa name? Not we, it is in the śāstra. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). This is shastric. But there are many rascals. They give the example, that "Chanting, what is the benefit? I can chant 'soda water, soda water,' like that." But they do not know, rascals, what is the śāstra's injunction. And actually, it is happening. But they are blind. How these European, American boys and girls, simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they are becoming purified? How? Unless there is spiritual potency in chanting, how they are becoming so purified? Even in..., so-called Hindus they are surprised that "How these Europeans and Americans they have become so nice devotees." The chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has got the power, has got the potency.
Doctor, my son is having hundred and seven degree temperature." "All right. I stop it. Give him some injection, poisonous." The child dies. Now there is no fever. Now the father says, "My child does not move." "Oh, whether this fever is stopped or not?" "Yes, there is no fever also." "That's all right. My business finished." That sort of foolish doctor will not do. (laughs) We should not stop consciousness. No. That is the... That is the, I mean to say, secret of philosophy. If my consciousness is stopped altogether, then what do I gain? That means my death. My whole existence finished. No. Then comes... I am shortly giving the substance of different philosophers.
Yes. This is very important point. Sometimes it is thought that spiritual life means to retire from active life. That is general impression. People think that for cultivation of spiritual knowledge or self-realization they should go to some Himalayan caves or some secluded place. That is also recommended. But that sort of recommendation is meant for persons who are unable to engage themselves in activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lord Kṛṣṇa is teaching Arjuna how one can remain in his position. Never mind whatever he is, still he can become perfectly in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the whole substance of the teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Now, this watch, this name of this watch... This name of this article is "watch." Now, "watch" and the thing, watch, there is difference. If I want to see watch and if I sound, "Watch, watch, watch," no, my purpose of watch—seeing will not serve. I want the actual substance, which is watch. If I am thirsty, if I simply speak of "Water, water, water," my thirst will not be quenched. I want actual water. If we want something else for my enjoyment, the name will not do, because nothing in this... This is dual world. This world is of duality. But in the absolute world there is no such duality. Everything is everything. One plus one equal to one; one minus one equal to one. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). These are Vedic injunction, that "If you take the whole thing from the whole, still, the balance is whole. The balance is whole."
Just like in the relative world... This is relative world. Material world means the relative world. Relative world means the son. As soon as I say "the son," there must be a father. As soon as I say, "friend," there must be another man, friend. As soon as I say, "water," there must be something as water. But in the Absolute world, the name water and the water is the same. This is called Absolute, no different separation. So in the kingdom of God, the God is God and His son is also God. There the everything—there is no difference between the name and the substance. Here in this material world the name and the substance different.
Just like if I am thirsty, I want water, so the water must come to me. If I simply chant, "Water, water, water," that will not be effective, because it is relative world. But in the transcendental world, Kṛṣṇa is the name of God and it is God also. So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you are directly in contact with God. This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa, directly in contact.
So when we cannot adjust that God has got hands and also legs... In the Upaniṣads it is said that God, the Absolute Truth, Brahman, can walk so fast that even air cannot go so fast. In this way, there are descriptions. So that means, as stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His form, He has got form undoubtedly, but His form is different. The Māyāvādī philosopher, whenever they think of form they think in terms of his own form. That is their defect. Therefore it is said in the Bhāgavata, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāma is not ordinary nāma, name. Nāma means name. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāma is transcendental, absolute. There is no difference between the name and person and object. Here, there is difference. The name and the object is different. Water and the name "water" and the substance water—different. I cannot satisfy my thirst simply by chanting "water, water." But by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, I can realize God. That is the difference.
But here it is said, bhagavān uvāca. That means He's the richest, He's the strongest, He's the most beautiful, the wisest, and the most renounced order of life. Kṛṣṇa. When He was present in this material world, on this globe, He proved by His actions. So far His richness is concerned,... At this age, in this age, at the present moment, if a person can provide his family nicely, nice apartment or nice house, good dress, good food, he's considered to be very successful man. Because in this age... It is said in the śāstra, dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇam. Kuṭumba. Kuṭumba means family. If one can provide his family very comfortably, he is considered as very expert. But the family maintenance is done by the cats and dogs also. They also maintain their family, their wife, children, very nicely, according to their standard. But this age is so fallen that if one, even one is not married, the preliminary necessities of life, eating, sleeping, sex life and protection from fear... These are the preliminary necessities. So the age is so fallen that people have no eating substance even. We know, everyone, how things are going on. People are hungry, no eating substance. And what to say of sleeping? Or what to speak of...? Nobody's married timely, either boys or girls. And nobody's secure. Nobody knows what will happen next moment. This is called Kali-yuga.
Therefore this process, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, it captures the mind immediately. Simply if you chant, "Kṛṣṇa" and if you hear, automatically your mind is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That means the yoga system is immediately attained. Because the whole yoga system is to concentrate your mind on the form of Viṣṇu. And Kṛṣṇa is the original personality of expansion of Viṣṇu forms. Kṛṣṇa is just like here is a lamp. Now, from this lamp, from this candle, you can bring another candle, you can kindle it. Then, another, another, another, thousands of candle you can expand. In each candle is as powerful as this candle. There is no doubt about it. But one has to take this candle as the original candle. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is expanding in millions of Viṣṇu forms. Each Viṣṇu form is as good as Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is the original candle because from Kṛṣṇa everything expands.
So one who has concentrated his mind, someway or other in Kṛṣṇa, he has already attained the perfection of yoga. This is the substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Go on. (end)
Yes. Those who are spiritually advanced, their photograph and ordinary photograph is different. Just like here is statue of Kṛṣṇa. He's not different from Kṛṣṇa. The original person Kṛṣṇa and this statue of Kṛṣṇa is the same. Similarly, a spiritually perfect person and his photograph is the same. Because it is in the absolute stage. In the absolute stage there is no difference. In the material stage there is difference. Is that clear? In the absolute stage there is no difference. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa is the name of the Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So this name and Kṛṣṇa is nondifferent. Do you realize it? There is no difference between Kṛṣṇa who is in His supreme abode and the name Kṛṣṇa which you are chanting. That is the same. There is no difference. This is absolute conception. Whereas if I am thirsty and if I call the name of water, "Water, water, water," I require the substance water actually. Simply by calling "water" will not do. That is the difference between matter and spirit.
So we have been discussing Bhagavad-gītā. In Second Chapter, the Lord has very elaborately explained the constitutional position of the living entity, and the whole first portion of the Six Chapter. The Bhagavad-gītā is divided into three portions. The first six chapter, the second six chapters and the third six chapters. Actually just like this book, there are two hard covers, and in the middle there is the substance, writing. So the first six chapters, they are just like two coverings. Karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga. And the middle six chapters, well-protected, that is bhakti-yoga. So at the end of the first six chapters, Kṛṣṇa concludes the yoga system.
So our recommendation is... Not our; it is the recommendation of Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who inaugurated or revitalized this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement five hundred years ago in Bengal as Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija sarva śaktis, tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. Nāmnām akāri: the name and person whose name. Because God is absolute, there is no difference between His name and He Himself. Just like in this material calculation, if you want water, simply by chanting "water, water," you won't get water. The water substance is different from the name "water." But God being absolute, His name, His form, His quality, His entourage, they are all the same, as good as God. So if you associate with any one of them, either God personally or with His name or with His form or with His quality or with His paraphernalia, immediately you become in contact with God. This is the science.
Now, Kṛṣṇa is there. We have got Kṛṣṇa's picture, Kṛṣṇa's photo, Kṛṣṇa's temple, so many Kṛṣṇa's. They are not fictitious. They are not imagination, as the Māyāvādī philosopher thinks, that "You can imagine in your mind." No. God cannot be imagined. That is another foolishness. How you can imagine God? Then God become subject matter of your imagination. He is no substance. That is not God. What is imagined, that is not God. God is present before you, Kṛṣṇa. He comes here on this planet. Tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, sambhavāmi yuge yuge. So those who have seen God, you take information from them.
Prabhupāda: Transcendental qualities. What is the question?
Śyāmasundara: What qualities is the holy name invested with?
Prabhupāda: It is not clear. Holy name of God is God Himself. As in this material world there is difference between the name and the substance, in the holy name, as soon as you call holy name, that name is not different from the substance. Is it clear or not? First of all answer this.
Guest (6): I want a quote for each.(?)
Prabhupāda: No, your first question was "What is this holy name?" First of all try to understand this. Then put another question. Don't disturb. First of all try to understand this question. Holy name means the name is nondifferent from the substance. Here if you become thirsty, you want water, the substance. If you simply chant "water, water, water," it will not act. But holy name means if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you are associating with Kṛṣṇa personally. That is holy name. Here the name is contaminated, whatever name you... But God's name, Kṛṣṇa's name, is holy name. That is nondifferent from God. Otherwise, don't you see, they are chanting "Kṛṣṇa." If Kṛṣṇa name is not Kṛṣṇa, how they are making advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? They are associating with Kṛṣṇa directly. That is the holy name.
So the reply was that "My dear Arjuna, you are My devotee. Whenever I appear, you also appear, but I remember what I spoke to the sun-god. You were also present at that time with Me, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, or God and human being. That is the difference. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). Kṛṣṇa, God, knows everything, past, present and future. Just like in the Bhāgavata, in the beginning, God means janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "From whom everything has emanated." So everyone can say, "I have given birth to so many children, so many houses, so many factories. I am also God." No. You cannot be God, because you do not know, abhijña... You do not know the past, present and future. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Kṛṣṇa is abhijña. Just like in our body. We are eating. How this eating, I mean, the substance is transformed into different secretion and again blood, again flesh, again bone? How these are, we do not know. But it is actually happening. Anvayād itarataḥ. I know that I am eating, but itarataḥ, how this eating substance are transformed into bones, marrow, stool, I do not know. Therefore I am not abhijña. But about Kṛṣṇa it is said, abhijña. "He knows everything." How this world is going on? How these planets are rotating? How seasons are changing? Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Actually, it is happening due to the rotation of the sun; every scientist knows. But how the rotation of sun is going on, that they do not know. That we know. How? It is said in the Brahma-saṁhitā, yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. "The sun is moving by His order." Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: (BG 9.10) "Under My supervision, everything is going on." That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing.
Paṇḍita, who knows what is what, he is sama-darśī, equipoised. He knows that the substance within the tree or substance with the dog or substance with the human being or substance within the brāhmaṇa or a śūdra or a dog or a caṇḍāla—the soul is the same. Therefore, he sees everyone, sama-darśinaḥ. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). He does not distinguish between man and animal or tree. Because he knows that the living force is the same, spiritual quality that is the fragmental portion of the supreme soul, Kṛṣṇa. So we can understand, if we are little sober, how material things come out.
Just like fire is there. We can see. If you study whatever God has created, if you simply study, you become a philosopher. Just like the sun is situated in one place. Every day we can see. It is agni, fiery substance. So heat and light is distributed, and through the heat of the..., heat and light of the sun, all other planets are created and the vegetation and all products are being, coming out. Without sunlight you cannot do anything. Heat and light, it is essential.
And how is that puruṣa? Yasya antaḥsthāni bhūtāni yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. He is such a puruṣa, He is such a person, that everything, whatever you see, is within Him, and He is without, all-pervading. He has got such energy. How it is, that? Just like the sun is fixed up in one place located, but the sun rays is, all over the universe is distributed, similarly, although God is there, still, His energy is distributed everywhere. And He is not different from His energy. Just like the sunshine and the sun is not different, the same, same illuminating substance, similarly, He is distributed all over by His energies, different energies, and He is not different from His energy. Just like if there is electric energy, you can light up any lamp from anywhere, similarly, if we are progressive, if we are advanced in devotional service, we can see God everywhere, anywhere. We require to be qualified.
That is our practical experience. We are changing our body. In the mother's womb we were very small. In the first night after sex the two seminas, they mix up and then it becomes a form of a pea. Within that pea form, substance, the living entity takes shelter and gradually grows. Then there are nine holes, and then the hands and legs and everything becomes complete, and when, if he can sustain, then nature's law push him by the air, and he comes out of the mother's womb, and then again grows in different types of bodies and then he becomes old man. Then, when the body is no more usable, then the body is finished and the soul again enters another mother's body. This is called transmigration of the soul. This is going on, but this is not very happy thing. Today you may have Australian body or American body or Indian body, but when this body is finished, what is the next body you are going to get? You must have information. You are human being. But that education is not there. There is no education throughout the whole world how the soul is being transmigrated from one body to another, what body we are going to get next. This will be happy or distressful?
And what is this form? Mānuṣyam, human form, man. This mānuṣya is Sanskrit word and English word, "man," there is similarity, Latin. Originally, this mānuṣyam, or "man" comes from the word Manu. Manu is the father of humankind. Mānuṣyam. So why it is so rare? Artha-dam. You can attain the highest perfection, artha-dam. Artha means money, or artha means substance. Artha-dam. So we are utilizing it for money-making. Artha means money also, but there is another meaning of artha. Artha means substance. We are missing the substance. We are attracted by material money only. So mānuṣyam artha-dam anityam apīha dhīraḥ. And anityam. Although artha-dam—it can deliver you the substance—but it is not permanent, anitya. Nitya means eternal, permanent; anitya means just the opposite. So the scriptures, Vedic scripture, advises you mānuṣyam artha-dam apīha dhīraḥ.
But if you are dhīra-dhīra means sober, intelligent—then how you shall utilize it? Tūrṇaṁ yateta anu-mṛtyu na pated yāvat. You should try to utilize your this human form of life to achieve the highest substance very soon. Tūrṇam means very soon. Why very soon? Anu-mṛtyu na pated yāvat. You do not know when your death will come. You do not know. So before death comes just utilize yourself. Don't think that "I am young man. Let me enjoy now. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." No. You should not neglect.
Kṛṣṇa therefore says, mahā-bhūtāny ahaṅkāro buddhir avyaktam eva ca. Avyaktam means the total material substance. Just like when you construct a house there are heaps of materials, some stone, some cement, some woods, some iron, and you combine together... Tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayam. This whole world is exchange of three things: teja, fire, vāri, means water, and mṛt, means earth. So what is this Bombay city? The Bombay city is a heap of tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayaḥ. And... Here is one expert engineer, he knows how to mix these three things, tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayam, exchange. If there was no stock of tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayam, you could not build such a nice city. But who is supplying the ingredients? Can you create earth? No. Can you create water? No. You cannot create. You are simply working. You are simply working hard mixing them. That's all. Tejo vāri-mṛd-vinimayam. You cannot create. That is not possible. The creator is God. The creator is God. That is stated in the seventh chapter, prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. Me, Kṛṣṇa says, "It is mine."
This process of extrication should be understood. In the previous chapters it has been explained that there are many processes by which to get out of the material entanglement. And, up to the Thirteenth Chapter, we have seen that devotional service to the Supreme Lord is the best way. Now, the basic principle of devotional service is detachment from material activities and attachment to the transcendental service of the Lord. The process of breaking attachment to the material world is discussed in the beginning of this chapter. The root of this material existence grows upward. This means that it begins from the total material substance, from the topmost planet of the universe. From there, the whole universe is expanded, with so many branches, representing the various planetary systems. The fruits represent the results of the living entities' activities, namely, religion, economic development, sense gratification and liberation.
What is the difference between devatā and asura? The, that is explained by Kṛṣṇa, that daivī sampad vimokṣāya (BG 16.5). If you develop your divine qualities, as they're described, ahiṁsā, sattva-saṁśuddhiḥ... Sattva-saṁśuddhiḥ, sattva-saṁśuddhiḥ means existentional purification. Our..., we, as spirit soul, we are pure, original, because Kṛṣṇa is pure. Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa, after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram-paramaṁ bhavān: (BG 10.12) "You are paraṁ pavitra." And God is paraṁ pavitra is admitted in the Īśopaniṣad. Apāpa-viddham, asnāviram. Asnāviram means in the body of God there are no veins, and therefore apāpa-viddham. Veins, as soon as you have got this veins, that is material body. The body is maintained under certain material condition. You eat, and this eating substance transformed into secretion, then through the veins this comes to the heart, and heart it becomes red, corpuscle, the blood, the blood is diffused. Therefore there are so many channels, veins. And these things are pushed on with the air, and if there is shortage of air circulation, the man becomes paralyzed. This is scientific. So these things are required for the material body, not for the spiritual body. In spiritual body, asnāviram, there is no vein. Therefore one who misunderstands Kṛṣṇa as having a material body, he has been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍhā. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). He has no veins. There is no difference between His body and His soul. We have got difference with our body and soul; therefore this existence with this material body is not śuddha, is not pure. Therefore, sattva-saṁśuddhir, abhayaṁ sattva-saṁśuddhir.
So you see the sunlight, moonlight, and you see God. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sunlight. I am this moonlight." Then if you want to see Kṛṣṇa, you see the... Sunlight you can see very easily. Is it very difficult for you? Then Kṛṣṇa says, He personally says, that "I am the sunlight." You see the sunlight. You go on sunlight, seeing the sunlight, and you just take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, "Now here is Kṛṣṇa." Then you will understand, "Here is God." And factually you will see. If you think of only the sunlight, moonlight as instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā—Kṛṣṇa says, "I am sun...,"—then one day very soon you will understand. You will see Kṛṣṇa in sunlight. It is not bogus thing, that Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sunlight." He is. And He asks you to see. You see minutely, and you'll see Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? You want to see Kṛṣṇa. You see Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa advises. Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: (BG 7.8) "I am the taste of the water or any liquid substance. The taste I am." Now, whenever you drink water or drink any liquid thing or milk, the taste... There is... Everything has got a different taste. And if you think, as Kṛṣṇa advises you, that "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," then on that taste you will find Kṛṣṇa. You begin as Kṛṣṇa says. Then you will see Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. There are so many examples given by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out that chapter.
He says, "The material things..." Prapañcikā means material. So this house is material. It is made of wood, stone. So we are giving up all material connection. Then why shall we live in this house? This is material. So prapañcikā. Prapañcikā means considering something as material. Hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Vastu means substance or thing which has connection with Hari. This stone, wood, air, fire, water—five gross elements—it has connection with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). These eight kinds of material elements, five gross and three subtle, namely the earth, water, air fire, sky—these are gross elements—and the subtle elements, mind, intelligence, and ego... So these are subtle. Mind is also material, and intelligence is also material, and ego, the false ego that "I am this material body," that is also material. And above this, that is spiritual.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
So if, those who are Indians, especially present in this meeting, that if you want to glorify your country, then you present this Vedic literature. You cannot excel the western countries by so-called technological knowledge. That is not possible. They are far advanced. Hundred years advance. Whatever machine you may discover, that machine was discovered one hundred years ago in western countries. So you cannot. Anything. So if you want, Indians, to glorify your country, then present this Vedic culture heart and soul, and Just like I am trying to do it. So how people are accepting it? There is substance. Before me so many swamis came in this country, they could not present the real thing. They wanted some money and went away. That's all. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not that. We want to give something to the western countries. That is our purpose. Not we have come to beg, we have to give them something. That is my mission. They come here to beg, "Give me rice, give me dahl, give me wheat, give me money," but I have come here to give something of Indian culture. That is the difference.
Pradyumna: "They are well-wishers to everyone, and they strive to establish a competitionless society with God in the center. The contemporary socialist conception of a competitionless society is artificial because in the socialist state there is competition for the post of dictator. From the point of view of the Vedas, or from the point of view of common human activity, sense gratification is the basis of material life. There are three paths mentioned in the Vedas. One involves fruitive activities to gain promotion to better planets, another involves worshiping different demigods for promotion to the planets of the demigods, and another involves realizing the Absolute Truth in His impersonal feature and becoming one with Him. The impersonal aspect of the Absolute Truth is not the highest. Above the impersonal feature is the Paramātmā feature, and above this, there is the personal feature of the Absolute Truth, or Bhagavān. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives information about the Absolute Truth in His personal feature. It is higher than impersonalist literatures and higher than the jñāna-kāṇḍa division of the Vedas. It is even higher than the karma-kāṇḍa division, and even higher than the upāsanā-kāṇḍa division, because it recommends the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. In the karma-kāṇḍa, there is competition to reach heavenly planets for better sense gratification, and there is similar competition in the jñāna-kāṇḍa and the upāsanā-kāṇḍa. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is superior to all of these because it aims at the Supreme Truth, which is the substance or the root of all categories. From Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam one can come to know the substance as well as the categories. The substance of the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Lord, and all emanations, are relative forms of energy."
Prabhupāda: It is said, vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam. There is vastu. Vastu means summum bonum, original, and the vāstava. Just like Kṛṣṇa and His different energies. The different energies are called vāstava, "in relationship with vastu," and Kṛṣṇa is vastu. So here it is said that vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu. Vāstava, you can understand Kṛṣṇa in all His features. And if you understand, then śivadam, it is auspicious. Tāpa-trayonmūlanam. As soon as you understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, because it is auspicious, then all the tāpa-traya, three kinds of miserable condition of material existence pertaining to the body, mind, pertaining to the infliction offered by others, adhibhautika, adhidaivika, or adhyātmika... So these are, three kinds of tribulations are always going on. So when we understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the vastu, the substance, and the categories, then immediately it becomes auspicious and we become free from these threefold miseries of material life.
If you want to make perfection of your life, then whatever you have got, you have to spend it, spare it for Kṛṣṇa. Not that "The substance is for my relatives, and simply I come with lip sympathy." No.
So,
- dharmasya hy āpavargyasya
- nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate
- nārthasya dharmaikāntasya
- kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ
- (SB 1.2.9)
Not for sense gratification. Don't use your money for sense gratification. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, yajñārthe karma. You are working hard not for..., do not work for hard, hard work, for sense gratification. In the, another place, in the instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva, it is said that nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This body, this human body, is not meant for working hard like the hogs for sense gratification. But people have made it a civilization. They are working very hard, day and night, simply for sense gratification. This is compared like the hogs. You have seen so many hogs in Vṛndāvana, loitering. The whole day, they are working to find out where is stool. That is their business. So it may not be very pleasing, but these hogs, they are also living in Vṛndāvana, but why they are hogs? Because they came to Vṛndāvana and behaved like hogs. So Kṛṣṇa has given them the opportunity: "All right you live in Vṛndāvana as a hog." We should not come Vṛndāvana to behave like hogs. What is the behavior of the hog? Sex indulgence without any discrimination. That is hogs. Hog has no discrimination whether it is mother, sister, or this or that. Any sex will do. This is hog life.
Pradyumna: "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān."
Prabhupāda:
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
So the Absolute Truth is realized in three different features, according to the capacity of realization of the Person. Those who are trying to approach the Absolute Truth by exercise of the senses, they can reach up to the point of impersonal Brahman. Those who are searching out the Absolute Truth by meditation, by mystic yogic practices, they can realize the Paramātmā feature of the Absolute Truth. And those who are engaged in devotional service, they realize the Absolute Truth as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Pradyumna: (leads chanting, etc.)
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
Translation: "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān."
Prabhupāda: I will speak, then you translate.
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
Yesterday we have been discussing the aim of life. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ. Kāma... Lābho jīveta yāvatā. The purpose of life is not sense gratification. Kāmasya na indriya-prītiḥ. We have got this body and we have got some bodily demands, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna, the bodily demands. We want to eat something, we want some resting place, we want to satisfy our senses, and we want to defend from dangers. These are bodily demands. But we should not be simply concerned with the bodily demands. Then we shall become on the level of animals. Our real demand is self-realization.
The anartha... In the name of civilization, we have increased so many unwanted things, unnecessarily. This is called anartha. Artha means which is substance. So just like we can give so many examples. When there was no so-called advancement of civilization, people used to eat on utensils made of silver, gold, at least metal. Now they're using plastic. And still, they are proud of advancement of civilization. Actually it is anartha, anartha, unwanted things. At least, in, two hundred years ago in India, there was no industry. I think I am correct. Yes. But people were so happy. They did not have to go two hundred miles or five hundred miles away from home and for earning livelihood. In Europe and America, I see people are going for earning their livelihood by aeroplane, daily passengers. I've seen. From Vancouver, they were coming to Montreal and other places. Five hundred miles. At least fifty miles, one must go. In New York, many people are coming from distant place, Long Islands, crossing the sea, and then again bus, again... Anartha, simply unnecessary.
Pradyumna: (leads chanting, etc.)
- tayā vilasiteṣv eṣu
- guṇeṣu guṇavān iva
- antaḥ-praviṣṭa ābhāti
- vijñānena vijṛmbhitaḥ
- (SB 1.2.31)
Translation: "After creating the material substance, the Lord expands Himself and enters into it. And although He is within the material modes of nature and appears to be one of the created beings, He is always fully enlightened and in His transcendental position."
Prabhupāda:
- tayā vilasiteṣv eṣu
- guṇeṣu guṇavān iva
- antaḥ-praviṣṭa ābhāti
- vijñānena vijṛmbhitaḥ
Now, this material creation is possible when the Supreme Spirit enters into it. This is a problem to the modern scientist, how creation was possible. They cannot understand that without spiritual touch, there cannot be any creation. That is their poor fund of knowledge. The Darwin's theory, development, process of evolution, they are childish. They are concentrating on the matter: matter is evolving. Matter does not evolve; matter is dead. It is due to the presence of the spirit soul it evolves. That they do not understand, although actually we are seeing. Just like a child born. If the child is born dead, it is simply dead matter. It does not grow. It is our practical experience. But if the child is living, or the spirit soul is within that body, then it develops. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation, this big universe, unless there is, in the center, the Supreme Spirit, how it develops? It cannot develop. Either you take this body or take this universal body—without the spirit being entered within it, there cannot be development. The modern scientists, they have no knowledge. They cannot understand this.
But Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, he says, (chuckling) "Oh, you are trying to go to other higher planets by your karma, by his work? Oh, this is just like horse egg. Huh? Why should you bother yourself?" Horse egg means it has no substance. As, like there is no existence of horse egg, similarly, even if you attain that higher planetary system, what do you gain by that? You don't gain anything, because the four principles of material existence will continue there also. Birth, death, old age, and disease, you cannot stop. You may live for a greater period—that is possible in higher planets. But if you are simply satisfied only by living a bigger span of life, is that very success? Just stop death. That is success. To become very strong in body, that is not success. But either you become strong and weak, you have to die. There is no, I mean to say, excuse, because you are a strong man you will not die. Or because you are rich man you will not die. Because you are... No. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, it is just like ākāśa-puṣpa, phantasmagoria.
Ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet tato dharmaḥ. Dharma. This dharma. Dharma means religion. Actually, "religion" is not exact equivalent of the word dharma. Dharma, as I have explained several times, you know... Dharma dhṛ-dhātu. Dharma means you exist by some natural symptom. That is called dharma. Everyone has got some natural symptom. That is dharma. According to Sanskrit meaning, that is dharma. Just like this light is a substance. What is his dharma, religion? To give light, to illuminate. So without illumination, there is no meaning of light. Similarly, your dharma, what is your religion? Your religion is to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is your religion. Now you serve in a different way according to time, circumstances, country.
This is the version of Nārada Muni. We should be taking note of this. And for the Vaiṣṇava there is one qualification: poetic. You should... Everyone should be poetic. So... But that poetry, that poetry language, should be simply to glorify the Lord. Then it is... Just like Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Locana dāsa Ṭhākura, they are poets. They have produced so many songs. But about whom? About Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, under the instruction of Nārada, now Vyāsadeva will produce a literature like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is simply glorification of the Lord and His devotees. Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata means the Lord, and Bhāgavata means pertaining to the Lord. So pertaining to the Lord, everything. Vāstava-vastu vedyam atra. In the beginning of Bhāgavata it is said vāstava-vastu. Vastu means substance, the summum bonum. And vāstava, in relation to the summum bonum.
You can derive the same benefit as Arjuna by reading Bhagavad-gītā. People say that Arjuna was enlightened because Kṛṣṇa was present before Him. But Kṛṣṇa is present before you also, by His words, by His sound representation. Just like Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, Kṛṣṇa's name, it is not different from Kṛṣṇa. Nāma, abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). Nāmi... Here in the material world the name and the person whose name, that is different because it is material. If you want water, this water substance or water is different from the name water. You cannot quench your thirst simply by chanting "Water, water." That is not possible. Because it is material. But you can realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That is the significance of spiritual and material. Otherwise, how people are satisfied simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra? Let him chant some other name, material. No. You cannot chant more than three times. Then you will feel tired. But you can go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra for hundreds and millions of years. It will, still you will not feel tired. That is the difference. Therefore His name and He is not different. Abhinnatva.
The māyā's business is to capture. Just like criminal is arrested by the police, similarly, māyā is also engaged for this purpose. Anyone who forgets Kṛṣṇa, anyone who wants to enjoy life, imitate like Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the enjoyer. But we are imitating. Sometimes we say, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am God." This is our disease. We want to imitate Kṛṣṇa. We want to become Kṛṣṇa. We want to enjoy like Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. So so long we have got this propensity, we are sinful. This is the substance.
How it is pleasurable? So all the rasas ... The Māyāvāda philosopher, they have eaten sweet rice with grains, with sand grains. Therefore when you offer him next sweet rice, "Oh, I have got taste. Don't supply it." Or, "I wish to live without eating-zero." This is Māyāvāda philosophy. Try to understand, impersonal, making everything zero, without any varieties. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa means without any varieties, and śūnyavādi means zero, voidist. The two kinds of Māyāvādīs, generally headed by Saṅkara philosophy and Buddha philosophy. But our position is transcendental, above. Karmīs ... Karmīs, they are on the material field. They are trying to enjoy on the material platform. Jñānīs, they are trying to make it varietyless, and the Buddhists, they are trying to make it zero. Our philosophy is substance. This is difference, substance, reality. Vāstava-vastu, real reality, not the false thing. So these people, the voidists and impersonalists, because they have no information of the Supreme Lord and His activities ...
Activities are there. Kṛṣṇa is coming, showing His activities. But they will say, "It is māyā. Kṛṣṇa is māyā."
Yogamāyā means... Here, this is also Kṛṣṇa's exhibition of māyā, but it is temporary. In the another, spiritual world, that is also exhibition of Kṛṣṇa's māyā, but it is permanent. Here is a perverted reflection, we say. Just like shadow, shadow, the shadow of the tree in the water—everything is perverted, opposite. So that shadow is not the substance. The substance is there. On the bank of the river, that is really. Similarly the spiritual world is There also, everything is there. There are trees, there are fruits, there are flowers, there are men—everything is there, birds, beasts, everything. But they are all real. Here, bahu-rūpa. Bahu-rūpa means, which it is not reality. That, this bahu-rūpa is also reflection, but it is not real. That is the difference. Ivābhāti. Therefore it is called ivābhāti: "It appears like that." Actually it is not. Just like in some shop you see so many ladies and gentlemen are standing with nice dress. What is called that...?
So don't take this so-called material civilization has got any value. Reject it. You see? And be prepared for going back to home, back to Godhead. That should be aim. Don't be allured by these rascal leaders. And the another rascal, the Māyāvādī, they cannot believe all these things—"Make it zero." Śūnyavāda. They also do not like the modern ways of life, disgusted, but they have no adjustment, and therefore "Make it impersonal, zero, finished." Here is not zero. Here is substance. We are not after zero. We are after substance. The substance is described here. Just try to understand. We are not fakir. Fakir, this word is used in... One who has no hope, simply loitering in the street, he is a fakir, hopeless. So all are, they are fakirs. And we are not fakir. We are hoping to go there, to live with Nārāyaṇa or Kṛṣṇa, having this greatest opulence, eternal body, blissful life, full of knowledge and opulence. That's all.
Therefore the every Indian should study Bhagavad-gītā and if possible Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and assimilate it, and preach all over the world. This is the duty of India. India has no other duty. Para-upakāra. So with our one man's endeavor, teeny effort, you, we can see that so many outsiders, they're attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless there is something substance... They are not illiterate. They are not fools. They are not poor. Why they are attracted? There is something to be learned from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spread all over the world regularly, then the face of the world will change. That's a fact. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is the Vedic mission: "Let everyone become happy." And how he'll be happy? He cannot become happy by mental concoction. That is not possible. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is situated on the mental platform, speculating, he will simply go to the asat. Asat means this material world. Asato mā sad gama. Vedic says, "Don't remain in this asat. Come to the sat. Oṁ tat sat."
So Arjuna is person, and Kṛṣṇa is person. Therefore the..., in the sun planet the predominating deity is a person. He is not imperson. So you cannot understand that person simply by seeing the sunshine. That requires better qualification, how to enter the sun planet, how to see the predominating deity. The impersonalists, they simply conclude that, the same way as we foolish persons conclude, that the sun planet is simply a fiery substance, and there is nothing, no... If there is nothing, if there is no sun-god, predominating deity or the president of the sun globe, then how Kṛṣṇa could speak with him? In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. Just like we talk. We are talking with you. We are not talking in the sky, vacant. We are talking with persons. These are intelligent. These require intelligence. So how we can imagine that "How the sun-god can be person? It is a fiery, big fire substance, and how one can live?" This is also foolishness. "Because I cannot live in the fire, therefore nobody can live in the fire." That is my foolishness. My body is not so made. Just like you cannot live in the water. It does not mean that there is no living entity in the water. It requires intelligence. Similarly, if you cannot live in the fire, it does not mean that nobody lives there. Yes. There are living entities whose body is so made. Just like the fish and other aquatics, they live. Their body is so made. This is intelligent study. Otherwise, if you simply compare with my intelligence, my position, my circumstances, and we'll conclude all others like that, that is blindness. That is not... Blindness.
Then in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, na jāyate. Na jāyate means anything which is born, it has got beginning. But living entity or Kṛṣṇa, or God, they have no beginning. Kṛṣṇa is also beginningless, and we are also beginningless. Just like the sunshine. Sunshine is combination of small particles or molecules of bright substance. So, so long the sun is there, the sunshine is there. Sunshine means the combination of the bright molecules, molecular part. Similarly, we are parts of the brahma-jyotir. Brahmajyoti means combination of unlimited living entities. Svayaṁ-jyotiḥ, it is said. Svayaṁ-jyotir viśvam. Svayaṁ-jyotir viśvaṁ yena samanvitam. That jyoti is spread all over the universe, all over the universe. So the living entities are there just like sunshine is spread all over the universe. And what is the sunshine? A combination of small bright particles. Similarly, we are also bright, jyoti. And that is realization, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that "I am also small particle jyoti, and the Supreme Brahman is also jyoti..." Yasya prabhā (Bs. 5.40). And what is this prabhā, this prabhā, this jyoti? It is Kṛṣṇa's bodily rays.
In another place, in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). Durgā is the material energy, and she has got immense power. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktiḥ. She is controlling this creation or this whole universe, sṛṣṭi, and sthiti, its maintenance, and pralaya. Three things she is controlling. She is so powerful. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). The durgā-śakti, material energy, she is so powerful, but it is working chāyeva, just like shadow. Shadow has no independent capacity; it is dependent on the substance. Substance and shadow. So Kṛṣṇa is the substance, and the power derived from Kṛṣṇa, partially exhibited by the durgā-śakti. In the Upaniṣad also it is said, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of God, He has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaḥ. Nobody is equal to Him. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcit: (BG 7.7) "There is nothing superior than Me, the Supreme." In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is said, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is the Supreme Truth.
So this is the only process. Let us hear from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, not these professional. But just like here Kapiladeva is explaining Sāṅkhya philosophy. Every word of Bhāgavatam, sublime. And this is given to us by Vyāsadeva, because we do not know how to get out of this entanglement of material envelopment. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣāt, anartha. On account of being entangled in this material modes of nature, we have accumulated so many unwanted things, anartha. That is called anartha. Artha means substance, and anartha means illusory things. So many things. So that is our material condition of life, and the only remedy is become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and that is... How we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Viṣṇu means Kṛṣṇa. Simply hear and speak about Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Nitāi: "Although originally one, taste becomes manifold as astringent, sweet, bitter, pungent, sour and salty due to contact with other substances."
Prabhupāda:
- kaṣāyo madhuras tiktaḥ
- kaṭv amla iti naikadhā
- bhautikānāṁ vikāreṇa
- rasa eko vibhidyate
- (SB 3.26.42)
Rasa, taste, is one, but it becomes varieties by different combination of bhautikānām, material elements. This is chemistry. Chemistry means mixing of different chemicals and produce another element. Just like soap. Soap is mixture of fat and soda. So fat, oil, is something else, and soda is another thing, but if you carefully mix them together, it becomes soap. So the whole world is the mixture of these five elements: kṣitir āp... Fire, water... Tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayaḥ. The Sanskrit word is tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayaḥ. Mṛd means this earth, and tejas means fire, and vāri means water. You take earth mixed with water and put it into the fire; it becomes brick. Then you take another mixture; that becomes cement. And take the help of cement and take the help of brick; then construct a house.
Don't think the sun is working so nicely automatically. No automatically. The master is there, Kṛṣṇa. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. The sun is so powerful substance within this universe. There are many millions of suns. This is one sun only—but it is carrying out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ, unlimited light, unlimited fire, unlimited heat. Aśeṣa. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. There is no comparison with the sunlight, sun's heat. There is no comparison within this universe. Unlimited. For millions and millions of years it is, from the sun the light and heat is coming out, but there is no diminution. It is the same as it was millions of years ago, and after giving you light and heat for millions of years, the same quantity of light and heat is still there.
Nitāi: "The characteristics of water are exhibited by its moistening other substances, coagulating various mixtures, causing satisfaction, maintaining life, softening things, driving away heat, incessantly supplying itself to reservoirs of water, and refreshing by slaking thirst."
Prabhupāda:
- kledanaṁ piṇḍanaṁ tṛptiḥ
- prāṇanāpyāyanondanam
- tāpāpanodo bhūyastvam
- ambhaso vṛttayas tu imāḥ
- (SB 3.26.43)
So this is analysis of water. So many things can be performed by water. Everything is being analytically studied. Kṣitir āp tejo marud vyoma. So... But one thing important in this verse is that tāpa apanodaḥ, refreshing, refreshing. When you are thirsty, you drink water. Immediately your thirst is satiated and you feel a fresh pleasure. So in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that this qualification of the water, tāpa apanodaḥ... What is that verse?
How subtle things are going on, that is described in the Sāṅkhya philosophy presented by Kapiladeva, but we do not understand practically how things are going on. We are simply accepting the words, that "By transformation of this thing, this thing is coming out so much." Neither it is possible to make experiment. Maybe, but scientists can take advantage of this Sāṅkhya philosophy. So you may experiment or not. That doesn't matter. Things are going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā manyate... (BG 3.27). What is called? Kartāham iti manyate. Actually, these rules of transformation as ordained by daiva-coditāt, by the supreme design, that is going on. But we, under the name of so-called scientist, we are trying to take the credit. Just like they are testing now—in the test tube they are making life. But the substance, the semina, male and female, that you cannot create. That you have to take from the male, from the female, then put together in the test tube. Then it may come. They are very much proud that "Now in the laboratory we are making life by chemical combination." But the actual chemical coming from by this transformation under the supervision of the daiva, daiva-coditāt. Daiva is the principle cause. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). That they do not accept. And people are giving credit to these artificial scientist.
Nitāi: "Odor, although one, becomes many—as mixed, offensive, fragrant, mild, strong, acidic and so on—according to the proportions of associated substances."
Prabhupāda:
- karambha-pūti-saurabhya-
- śāntogrāmlādibhiḥ pṛthak
- dravyāvayava-vai...
- (SB 3.26.45)
What is that? Vaiṣamyād gandha eko vibhidyate. In the previous verse the gandha, from gandha, from smell, fragrance or smell, ghrāṇas tu gandhagaḥ. So in the smelling power, nostril, they perceive different varieties. Variety is there. Although the thing is one, one Kṛṣṇa, but even in His material energy, He is perceived in varieties of things. That is the purpose of this Sāṅkhya philosophy, how one has become many. Ekaṁ bahu syām.
The original person, the Supreme Lord-kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)—He also comes. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, that is Kṛṣṇa's expansion, incarnation. They also come, and Kṛṣṇa also come. Kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yaḥ. He is the Supreme Person, pumān. Pumān means the puruṣa, the enjoyer, the proprietor. That is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can be in touch with Kṛṣṇa by vibrating this sound, Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is so potent. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). The name of Kṛṣṇa is cintāmaṇi, transcendental. It is not this material sound, material name. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya. Living force, caitanya. It is not dead sound. If you want water, if you chant only "Water, water, water, water," you will not get water, because it is material sound. The water substance is different from the word water. Therefore, simply by chanting "water, water," you cannot quench your thirst. You must have the substance water. That is material sound. Anything you take, simply by chanting the name, you will not get the thing. That is material.
But in the spiritual world, the name and the person or the substance is the same. There is no difference. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. There is no difference. Therefore, those who are chanting "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," they are becoming more and more engladdened, enthusiastic to chant. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam: (CC Antya 20.12) you become cleansed of your heart, cleansed of the contamination of your heart." There are many verses. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). If you don't get anything because there is nāma-aparādha, offenses in chanting... There are ten kinds of offenses. So if you can avoid the offenses... The name is pure, "Kṛṣṇa." But even though it is chanted offensive, by chanting, chanting, you become cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. It may take little time, but be sure that your consciousness will be cleansed, clear, transparent, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The... At the present moment we have got consciousness, but that is contaminated. "I am American conscious," "I am Indian conscious." Somebody is dog conscious, cat conscious, so many consciousness. But by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, this contamination of the consciousness will be cleansed, crystalized. It will be. Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
There is no question of merging. Brahmajyoti means the..., it is the combination of millions and trillions of sparks of living entities. That is brahma-jyotir. They are not mixed up. They are just like the sunshine. The sunshine, it is not one homogeneous substance. There are millions and trillions of shining particles. Combination is called sunshine. It is not that they are merged. Similarly, every individual soul is individual. Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you, Me, and all these soldiers and kings, they were existing before, they are now existing now, and they will continue to exist in the future." So where is mixture? You, me, and all of you, we are different individuals, and Kṛṣṇa says—not ordinary person—that "They were individuals in the past, they are individual now, and they will continue to become individual." So where is this question of merging? There is no question of merging. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loka sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7), eternally they are individuals, and eternally they will keep individual.
"They are very much interested for their own liberation." Sva-muk. Sva means "own." Sva-vimukti-kāmā. And maunaṁ caranti vijane na parārtha-niṣṭhāḥ: "They try to live in solitary place, in Himalaya Mountain, maunam, not talk to anyone, caranti..." Because they are always afraid that "If I mix with these ordinary people in the cities, I may be disturbed, I may fall down. Better let me save myself first of all." So Prahlāda Mahārāja regretting that these great saintly persons, they do not come in the city where they have manufactured a civilization, all day and night working hard. So... "But I am anxious for them." This is Prahlāda Mahārāja's philosophy (?). Maunaṁ caranti vijane parārtha-niṣṭhāḥ, na parartha niṣṭhāḥ: "They are not very much compassionate with these fallen people who are unnecessarily working so hard simply for sense gratification." If there is some substance in that working hard, no, they do not know what is the substance. And at most they know sex. That's all. Working so hard day and night. And what is satisfaction? Either naked dance, go to the naked club or this or that. That's all. (laughter) Maunaṁ caranti vijane.
So this is very nice verse, substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that those who are conducting this movement, they must be suśīla, very well behaved. Nobody can find out any fault. That is suśīla, well behaved. The behavior should be so nice. That is the test how you have become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the test. Spotless. You study Caitanya Mahāprabhu's behavior, character, He's ideal. Throughout His whole life you'll not find a spot. You read Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Find out some fault, that "Here is Caitanya... Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is faulty." No. That is suśīla. And that is sādhu. Sādhava. Sādhava means sādhu, saintly person. What is saintly person?
So we have to practice this, that Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. If we practice, there is chance at the time of death repeating the same thing, Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. So immediately you are saved, not to go to the yama-mandira. The powerful name, holy name is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no difference—absolute. Absolute means... Just like here if I simply chant "mango, mango, mango," there is no mango. Mango is different from the name mango. If I want to eat mango, the substance mango I must have. So there is difference between the name and its substance. That is material-duality. But in the absolute world there is..., means there's no duality. The name mango and mango: the same. This requires advanced knowledge. So there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa the name and Kṛṣṇa the person. There is no difference. Otherwise this is practical. You're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Twenty-four hours you can chant, you'll never feel tired. But if you chant any other thing... (break)
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is opening so many centers just to give people opportunity to hear. To hear. So I am very glad that this church... This was a church, and nobody was coming here, and therefore it was sold to us. Now... You are all belonging to America, Los Angeles, and the church also was there. Now why it is crowded? It is not that you are imported from India to hear about Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) So if there is substance, they will hear. If there is no substance, who will hear? That is the difference. So substance is here. Ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa karila. You hear these Vedas and Purāṇas and make your life successful.
So that means illicit sex, sex without the, I mean to say, intention for begetting a nice child, that is illicit sex. There are two kinds of illic... Avaidha-strī-saṅga. Avaidha. Avaidha means against the vidhi, against the regulation. Putra-piṇḍa. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. Bhāryā means wife. Wife is accepted simply for begetting sons. Therefore it is called dharma-patnī. Dharma-patnī. A son is required... Why one should accept a wife for begetting son? Putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. According to Vedic dharma the piṇḍa-dāna, offering piṇḍa, oblations to the forefather, putra is pun-nāmno narakād yasmāt trāyate iti putraḥ. Well, everything is derivative, and it has got sound substance in each and every word of Sanskrit. Who is putra? There is a naraka, hell, hell, and if somebody by his sinful action is sent to that hell, the putra will deliver him. Pun-nāmno narakād yasmāt trāyate. That pun-nāmna, that pu... Pun-nāmno narakāt, the first word of that naraka, pu, and trāyate, tra, if combined together, it becomes putra. So putra has meaning. Putra is not a product of sexual intercourse. No. Putra means "who can deliver the forefather if by chance he is fallen in the hellish condition." Therefore putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. What is putra-piṇḍa? Caitanya Mahāprabhu also showed us the example. He went to Gayā Pradesh to offer piṇḍa for his forefathers. This is necessary still. In Gayā there is Viṣṇu temple, and in the Viṣṇu temple the oblation is offered at the lotus feet of the... There are many practical cases that one's father or mother became ghost after death, and after offering oblations at the lotus feet of Viṣṇu at Gayā, he was delivered. There are many cases.
So those who are suras, those who are demigods, they are Vaiṣṇava. They are always ready to render service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But by false prestige, when one tries to become master... Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. A master is supposed to be the supreme enjoyer of the establishment. But actually nobody is the enjoyer. Kṛṣṇa is the only enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor. So when we forget this relationship with Kṛṣṇa, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," then he becomes servant of the senses, or māyā. So by becoming servant of the senses he follows the dictation of the master senses and goes down to the darkest region of illusion and becomes subject to the punishment of Yamarāja. This is the substance.
Being compassionate with the poor souls. Poor souls... Who are poor souls? Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a poor soul. He may be outwardly very rich, but he's a poor soul. Dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau, gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhuḥ. And how they were living? Always thinking of the pastimes of the gopīs with Kṛṣṇa. That was their life substance. How Kṛṣṇa gopī-jana-vallabha. They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa as gopī-jana-vallabha. That is Kṛṣṇa's business. Rādhā-mādhava gopī-jana-vallabha. So how gopī-jana-vallabha was dealing, they were always thinking. In that ecstasy they were keeping life. Otherwise, they had no comforts of the body. They gave up everything, living underneath a tree and became a mendi... Kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Kaupīna means simply the two pieces of underwear, that's all. No gorgeous clothing, nothing of the sort. But they were rich in understanding the gopī-jana-vallabha. They understood what is gopī-jana-vallabha. Gopī-bhāva-rasa. That is just like ocean. Rasāmṛtābdhi. There is a rasa, mellow, which they were tasting twenty-four hours, and therefore they didn't care whether they were living underneath a tree or there was no cloth, no food. That doesn't matter. Gopī-jana-vallabha.
Similarly, we are hankering after loving Kṛṣṇa in a perverted way. But because we have no information of Kṛṣṇa, we have forgotten our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, therefore we are loving this body, that body. Ultimately, I am loving a cat or dog or something else. The love is there, but we have misplaced the love. As soon as we replace our love to Kṛṣṇa, then our perfection of love is manifested and our perfection of life is also achieved. Lord Caitanya preached this philosophy that premā pum-artho mahān. Prema, prema means love. His philosophy, Lord Caitanya's philosophy, is ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayaḥ. Vrajeśa-tanayaḥ means Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa appeared as the son of the king of Vraja, Vṛndāvana. Therefore And tanaya means son. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His propagation, His teaching, the substance of His teaching is that Kṛṣṇa is the most worshipable object. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam.
So Prahlāda Mahārāja says that this bhāgavata-dharma... Bhāgavata-dharma means to revive our lost relationship with God. We should know what is God. We should know what we are, living entities. We should know what is this material nature. We should know what is time, and we should know what are our real activities. Why don't you come forward? The sunshine is troubling you. So come forward. Yes. Sit comfortably. So bhāgavata-dharma means it is scientific knowledge. It is not sentiment. Religion without philosophical understanding is sentiment. And philosophy without understanding of God is mental speculation. So we should not be both, neither sentimentalist nor dry mental speculator. There is a class of mental speculators, they're writing volumes of books but there is no substance. And there are some religious fanatics, but they do not know, do not understand what is religion. So these two classes of men are now very prominent at the present moment. But Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, or Bhagavad-gītā, if anyone is intelligent he'll know that it is combination of religious sentiment plus philosophy. To understand religion on the basis of philosophy and logic. Not blindly accepting. So this is called bhāgavata-dharma.
This is called durāpūreṇa. It is never fulfilled. This attraction of man and women in family life continues. The other day one devotee came to me, and he was almost crying, that "My wife is suffering, and she may not live. So kindly give me some blessings." Before the death of his wife—because there was nothing serious—the wife has said, "My dear husband, I may not live very long with you," and he is so disturbed that he is thinking that "My wife may die at any moment." So this is the position. This is not very extraordinary thing. This attraction of man and women, this is material bondage. Therefore it is said, durāpūreṇa kāmena: (SB 7.6.8) this lusty desires is never fulfilled even up to the point of death. And what is this nature of this lusty desire? Moha, illusion. It is not fact. It has no substance, but it is there; that's a fact. The example is given just like in dream, somebody is cutting my head and I'm crying. Actually there is no man cutting my head—my head is there—still, I am suffering by such thoughts. This is called moha. Actually there is no fact, but on account of being entangled in three stages of pollution... The pollution is that intelligence. The intelligence is polluted in three ways: jāgriti, svapna, and suṣupti. Jāgriti means just like we are now awakened; we are not sleeping. This is one stage. And another stage, at night when you go to sleep, and you sleep with dream, that is another stage. And another stage is suṣupti, so deeply, just like when a man is intoxicated or chloroform during surgical operation, he does not understand that "Surgical instruments are being applied on my body." He remains silent. This is another stage. So these three stages are there for polluting our intelligence.
And He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is the instruction. This is the substance of all instruction. Believe Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality. Here is Kṛṣṇa. Believe that there is Kṛṣṇa. Innocent child will believe, but our brain is so dull, we will inquire, "Whether the Deity is made of stone or brass or wood," because we are not innocent. We are thinking that this Deity is something made of brass. Even it is brass, a brass is not God? Brass is also God. Because Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir..., apareyam..., bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). Everything is Kṛṣṇa. Without Kṛṣṇa there is no existence. So why Kṛṣṇa cannot appear as He likes? He can appear in brass. He can appear in stone. He can appear in wood. He can appear in jewel. He can appear in painting. Any way He can... That is all-powerful. But we have to take it that "Here is Kṛṣṇa." Don't take it that "Kṛṣṇa is separate from this Deity, and here we have got a brass form Deity." No. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Advaita. He has multi-expansion, but they're all one.
So it is very difficult to understand even the spiritual substance, and what to speak of God. The beginning of spiritual knowledge is to understand first of all what is spirit. And they are taking the intelligence or mind as spirit. But that is not spirit. Beyond that... Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). So this perfection, as Prahlāda Mahārāja had immediately by touching the Supreme Personality of..., we can also have. There is possibility, and very easily, because we are fallen, mandāḥ, very slow, very bad. Mandāḥ and sumanda-matayo. And because we are bad, everyone has manufactured a theory. Sumanda. Mata. Mata means opinion. And what is that opinion? Not only mandā but sumanda, very, very bad. Sumanda-matayo. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ (SB 1.1.10), and all unfortunate or misfortunate. Why? When there is knowledge, they'll not take. They will theorize.
Devotee: Swami, is the idea that matter is neither created nor destroyed, but the substance is eternal but the form is temporary? Is that...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the way. Everything here in the material world is temporary. Anything you take, anything material, that is temporary. Similarly this body is temporary, this house is temporary, this country is temporary. Say some five hundred years ago, this was not Canada. It was something else. Similarly, in some other time, it will be different. So nothing is fixed up or permanent in this material world. Yes?
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have published our Nectar of Devotion. So every one of you should read this Nectar of Devotion repeatedly. The whole substance of Vaiṣṇava philosophy and activities, everything is there. So every one of you read this Nectar of Devotion once, twice, thrice. Unless you have got full-fledged ideas what is this devotional service... That was written by... Actually, it was spoken by Lord Caitanya to Rūpa Gosvāmī. For ten days continually He instructed Rūpa Gosvāmī at Prayāga, Daśāśvamedha-ghāṭa. You have seen the picture in TLC. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was at Allahabad, Prayāga, and Rūpa Gosvāmī met Him there. He was offering obeisances flat. You have seen that picture. So at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally gave him instruction what is this cult of bhakti. So for ten days. And he took note of it and later on he placed this book in the form of Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. That is in Sanskrit. It will be difficult for you. Therefore I have presented a summary study, and the summary study has come to 407 pages. If we would have elaborately described each and every verse, then it would have come to at least thousand pages.
So the whole substance is creamed. You should take advantage of this. And don't indulge in much unnecessary talks. Time should be very properly utilized. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ. Value of time is so great that one moment of your life lost, it cannot be returned even in exchange of millions of dollars. Therefore every moment should be properly utilized. Avyartha kālatvam (Cc. Madhya 23.18-19). When one is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness his business becomes to see, "Whether I am wasting my time?" That is one of the sign of advanced devotee. Avyartha kālatvam. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32). Attachment for chanting always. Prītis tad-vasati sthale: (Cc. Madhya 23.18-19) and attraction or attachment for living in the temple, vasati, where Kṛṣṇa lives. Kṛṣṇa lives everywhere, but specifically, to give us chance to meet, He lives in the temple or in places like Vṛndāvana. So prītis tad-vasati sthale.
Yes. This is very important point. The atheist class men, they say, "Can you show me God?" There are statements of atheist class, or sannyāsī even, that he demanded his spiritual master "Whether you can show me God?" So God cannot be seen by such demand. In the śāstras it is said, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). Śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Śrī Kṛṣṇa is present by His name, by His form, by His pastimes, by His paraphernalia, by His qualities. Anything about Kṛṣṇa is non-different. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name, it is the same. There is no difference. In the materialistic view, there is difference between the substance and the name. Just like water. If you are thirsty, simply if I chant, "Water, water, water," it will not quench your thirst. You require the substance, water. So similarly, a, a person's photograph or a statue is different from the person. If there is a photograph of a certain gentleman and if you want to do business with the photograph, it is not possible. You'll have to seek for the actual person. But in case of Kṛṣṇa, it is not like that. Kṛṣṇa, the person, and Kṛṣṇa's name, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. It is not that we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" and this Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is different. No. Nāma rūpe kṛṣṇa avatāra. The name of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa, the person, identical.
Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). You have to get yourself freed from the upādhis, designations. The designation, the sun and substance of designation: this material body. "I am this body." "I am Hindu." "I am Mussulman." "I am American." "I am Hin..., Indian." All designation of this body. So one has to become freed from the contamination of this bodily concept of life. That is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). Tat-paratvena nirmalam. When our spiritual body becomes revealed, the material body, contamination, is washed off, nirmalam. At that time, the senses remain. Senses are there. It is simply covered by the material energies. The senses are there. The living entity is not nirākāra. Living entity has got hands, legs, everything, spiritual. Just like my, I have got my body, and this body's covered by this shirt, and because I have got this hand, the shirt has got hand. Otherwise wherefrom this hand comes? Unless the spirit soul has got hands and legs, how we have got these material hands and legs?
So this nāma is also another incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Nāma-rūpe kali-kāle kṛṣṇa-avatāra. Name is... Because name and Kṛṣṇa is not different. Abhinnatvād nāma-nāminoḥ. There is no difference. Here, in the material world, there is difference between the name and the substance, but advaya-jñāna, in the Absolute world there is no such distinction. The name and the person, the same, identical. So actually, when we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we directly associate with Kṛṣṇa, because name is the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa-avatāra. Therefore, if we are sensible, then we should take very much respectful attitude to the name, because name and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Suppose Kṛṣṇa comes here. How much respectful we shall be, immediately. So similarly, when we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we should know Kṛṣṇa is there. Therefore we should be very much cautious and respectful, not neglectful. That is offense. That is offense. If you become inattentive, that is offense.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
So original creative energy is coming from this Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This is confirmed in Brahma-saṁhitā. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). The jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ... Here it is also said, ajāṇḍa. Jagad-aṇḍa or ajāṇḍa, the same thing, or Brahmāṇḍa, the same meaning. Aja means Brahmā. So the Brahmā is the head of this aṇḍa. It is egglike. This whole universe is like an egg, aṇḍa. So as from the aṇḍa, from the egg, a bird is coming out; similarly, from this egglike substance, Aja has come. Aja means who does not take birth like others, human beings or animals, but from this aṇḍa. So the Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu another name is ajāṇḍa aṅghāśrayanda. His whole body is producing universes. Ajāṇḍa-saṅghāśraya. Saṅghāśraya means aggregate, congregation. Just like we have got holes on the body, pores in the body.
So here it is said, eka-vastu. So far the substance is concerned, that is eka-vastu. Just like in logical categories the substance is there, and there are many categories. Take for example that the Absolute Truth is one, but there are categories: "This is śakti-tattva; this is prakāśa-tattva; this is incarnation tattva; this is marginal potency; this is external potency." Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). There are many multipotencies. Because the original is Absolute Truth, in one sense everyone is in the same absolute platform. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is a verse, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ: "This viśva, the whole cosmic manifestation, is Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Just like Kṛṣṇa manifested His universal form. So every part and parcel is Bhagavān, but still, it is different. This is the philosophy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's acintya-bhedābheda: simultaneously one and different, inconceivable.
So therefore there are different kinds of literature because there are different kinds of people. But the ultimate literature is, the substance of all Vedic literature is the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛṣṇe sva-dhāma upagate dharma-jñānādibhiḥ saha. It is..., there is a verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. When Kṛṣṇa was present He personally gave this Bhagavad-gītā and all knowledge. So many people took knowledge. There is another gītā, Uddhava-gītā. That was spoken to Uddhava. That is in Bhāgavata; this is in Mahābhārata, Bhagavad-gītā. So there is a question by the Śaunaka Ṛṣi that, after departure of Kṛṣṇa, wherefrom knowledge should be searched? So they recommended this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So in the Padma Purāṇa also there is similar passages. In Bhāgavatam also, there are similar passages.
So this is the verdict of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that śreyaḥ-sṛtiṁ bhaktim udasya te vibho kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Bodha-labdhaye. They stress on knowledge. What is this knowledge? You can talk on any insignificant thing for many years. That is not knowledge. Just like in the present modern civlization, so many nonsense articles without any utility, or volumes of volumes of books are sold in the market. There is nothing, no substance. Take for this..., newspaper. Especially in your country, volumes of papers in the news. Just after glancing over, it is thrown away. That's all. No more use. Just as The newspaper is published early in the morning, and just in the afternoon it is useless, it is heap of paper only, because there is no substance. Nobody can take any interest. But see Bhagavad-gītā, it is, five thousand years before it was published, and a few pages only, and how much care is being taken after Bhagavad-gītā. Because there is substance. Similarly, if you don't accept the substance, simply if you are busy with the skin... In Bengali it is called cavara nie tanake (?). Cavara means skin. You have seen coconut. The coconut is covered by heavy, what is called, fibers. So if you give up the coconut and simply quarrel with the fibers, what profit is there? There is no profit. Similarly, if you give up God, or Kṛṣṇa, who is the essence of everything, and you make your advancement in scientific knowledge, in physics and chemistry and so many departments of knowledge, so according to Bhāgavata this is simply waste of time. Simply waste of time.
This is a verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Third Canto, Ninth Chapter, in which the Lord is prayed by Brahmā, that nātaḥ paraṁ parama yad bhavataḥ svarūpam ānanda-mātram. "The personality which I am now seeing, that is the highest goal, or the topmost understanding of the Absolute Truth." Nātaḥ param. There is no beyond. Even if you are in the consciousness of impersonal Brahman, there is far advanced stage. What is that? Or Paramātmā, the Supersoul understanding. And when you are in the Supersoul understanding you have to go further, because the Supersoul is a reflection, reflection. Of course, there is no difference between the reflection and the substance in the spiritual world. Still, it is reflection. Just like the sun. Sun is on your head, but his reflection can be perceived by everyone standing within this, I mean to say, under the sun. Suppose you are here. The sun is above your head, and you ask other persons who are five thousand miles or five hundred miles away from you, "Where is sun?" he will say that "Sun is on my head." So everyone will say, "Sun is on my head." Similarly, although sun is one, he is perceived that he is in everyone's heart, er, everyone's head. Similarly, the Lord, although He is one, He is situated in Vaikuṇṭha, but He is Brahman. He is the greatest. He is greater than the, far million, million times or unlimited timely greater than sun. Then He is reflected in everyone's heart. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Īśvara, that Supreme Personality of Godhead, is situated in the heart of every living being.
But Vedānta philosophy does not say that. Vedānta philosophy, from the very beginning it asserts that athāto brahma jijñāsā, "Now it is the time for discussing on the Absolute Truth." And what is that Absolute Truth? Janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "Absolute Truth is the summum bonum substance from which everything emanates."
- yei grantha-kartā cāhe sva-mata sthāpite
- śāstrera sahaja artha nahe tāṅhā haite
This is the secret of modern fashionable interpretation. If you want to establish... Suppose you have got some conviction, and if you want to establish it by evidence of an approved literature... An approved literature. Just like Gandhi. Gandhi wanted to establish nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. He was a... He is known to be a great student of Bhagavad-gītā, but he was not at all. His political theory was that he wanted to conquer over the enemies by nonviolence method. Nonviolent noncooperation, that was his, I mean to say, theory. He wanted to get away all kinds of nonviolence from the world, all kinds of violence from the world.
Festival Lectures
So my Guru Mahārāja's desire and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's prediction is now being fulfilled. At least, it has begun to be fulfilled. So it is a genuine movement, authorized movement, and India's original culture. So our appeal to the Indian people, that "You should take seriously about this movement and try to cooperate with us." That will be glorification for Indian culture. At the present moment, India is known as very poor, poverty-stricken country. People are under impression that "They are beggars. They have got nothing to give. They simply come here to beg." Actually, our ministers go there and, for some begging purpose: "Give us rice, give us wheat, give us money, give us soldiers." That is their business. But this movement, for the first time, India is giving something to them. It is not a begging propaganda; it is giving propaganda. Because they are hankering after this substance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have enjoyed enough of this material consciousness. The material consciousness means to enjoy sex life and drink and have sufficient money. These three items, they have got sufficient, immense. There are... So far material comforts, oh, there is no conception in India how they are materially comfortable.
Initiation Lectures
In whatever condition you may be. Because two conditions there are. For the living entities... The living entity is in the marginal position. Either he can be in material nature or in the spiritual nature. The spiritual nature means liberation, and material nature means contamination. So in this mantra it is said, either of the condition, never mind. Either you are in material condition or spiritual condition. Sarvāvasthāṁ gato 'pi vā. Vā means either; yaḥ, anyone; smaret, smaret means remembers; puṇḍarīkākṣam, puṇḍarīkākṣam means whose eyes are just like lotus petal. That means Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bahya... Bahya means externally. Externally, this body. Abhyantaram. Abhyantaram means internally. Internally I am spirit. Just like internally, within this dress, I am internally. Externally I am this dress. Similarly, yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣam. Either he is in the bodily concept of life or he is in the spiritual concept of life, either he is contaminated or he is liberated—in any condition, one who remembers Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, bahyābhyantaram, he immediately becomes purified internally and externally. This is the substance of this mantra.
Mānuṣyam arthadam anityam apīha dhīraḥ, tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyu pateta yāvat niḥśreyasāya viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. The Vedic literature informs that labdhvā sudurlabham idam (SB 11.9.29). Idam means "this." "This" means this body, this opportunity, human form of life, developed consciousness, full facility. The animals, they have no facility. They are living in the jungles. But we can utilize these jungles, these forests, for so many comfortable situation. So we have got developed consciousness, intelligence. We can utilize. So it is called arthadam. Artha. There are two meanings of artha. Artha-śāstra. Artha-śāstra means economics, how to increase wealth. That is called artha. So arthadam. This human form of life can bestow upon you artha. Artha means something substantial. Generally we understand substantial means money. If somebody gets money, that is substantial for material comforts, of course, but real substantial thing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real substance, arthadam.
So Vedic literature, Vedas' meaning, when it is said, arthadam, "In this life you can achieve the substance," that substance means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, taking it substance means multimillionaire or millions of dollars, that is also artha but anityam. That is anityam. That substance will not be carried by you. You have come here empty-handed from the womb of your mother, and when you leave this place, you will also go empty-handed. Not that because you have earned millions of dollars, Mr. Rockefeller or Ford, you can carry this. No. The Rockefeller Center will remain there, where it is. You have to go empty-handed. So now, when it is said arthadam, "You can achieve the substance," that does not mean this artha, temporary, which will not be carried by me. It will be left behind. That is going on. I create something in this life. As much as this body is created by the father and mother, similarly, I also create. That creative energy is there in me because I am part and parcel of God. So God creates; I also create. That creative energy is within me, but a very minute quantity. That creation is nothing in comparison with God's creation.
Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Mām eva ye prapadyante. Kṛṣṇa. Only He. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. He can overcome the stringent laws of māyā. So don't think that after finishing this ceremony you become all right. No. Māyā is always strong. Kṛṣṇa-nāma karo bhaya āra sab miche, palāivera path naya yo māche piche. The instruction is that you always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Āra sab miche. Whatever except... Nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha-bhuvana-majhe. "Within this fourteen world, if there is anything summum bonum substance, this is this Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is this Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mind that." Nāma vinā kichu nāhika āra, cauddha-bhuvana-majhe. So this is secondary, this ceremony. Real strength is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So of course, people may not think you otherwise, that you are not brāhmaṇa, you are not purified. Therefore this ceremony is there, the thread ceremony here, that "Yes, we are properly... According to scriptural rules and regulations, we have become brāhmaṇa.
The Supreme has many kinds of potencies. Goddess Kālī is also one of the potencies, Durgā is also one of the potencies. Not that Durgā is the Absolute Truth. This is nonsense. That is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). Durgā. What is that Durgā? Durgā is the material nature, very powerful. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktiḥ. She has got the power of creating, maintaining and dissolving. She is so powerful. You have seen Durgā's picture. She has got ten hands. That's a long story, of course, Durgā, Caṇḍī. These are all described in the Vedic literatures. But she is not the absolute personality. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka chāyeva. She is working simply just like shadow. As the shadow moves when the original substance moves, similarly, she is only working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. She is the external potency. Similarly, Rādhārāṇī is a pleasure potency, and these gopīs are expansion of Rādhārāṇī, pleasure potency. So they are not ordinary girls, neither Kṛṣṇa is enjoying like us, that in the hotel at dance and in the morning the garbage. No. It is not like that. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis (Bs. 5.37).
General Lectures
Similarly, I have got my internal energy. That is my consciousness. Consciousness is my internal energy, and this body and the mind and this material demonstration, or manifestation, is my external energy. The body has developed, the mind has developed, from me, soul, not that I, consciousness, is developed from this body. No. That is a wrong conception. That is a wrong conception. You cannot develop consciousness from this body. Otherwise a dead man could have been again revived to consciousness. Because if matter is the cause of consciousness, then the whole matter is there already. Whole matter. The dead body means, so far material substance is concerned, everything is there, present. Nothing has disappeared. If you say there is no blood-oh, that is not very difficult thing, blood, a red substance. Do you mean to say something red injected within this body will bring back the life? No. If redness is the cause of life or consciousness, then modern chemical can make immediately by chemical combination the whole thing red. Or take example: there are many natural stones, they are by nature red. If you say that "This artificial redness cannot give life; the natural redness is the cause of life," then you take the stone. It has got natural redness, but there is no life. But there is no life. So redness is also not the cause of consciousness of life. That is a wrong theory. That is a complete... Consciousness is completely different thing, qualitatively different. Nothing is different from one to another, just like I have explained already that the earth, wood, then smoke, then fire—everything is linked up, but everything is also different from one another.
It is so much ecstatic. Let me dance." Nothing should be done artificially. Let everything come automatically. And only we have to follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. This is a verse from scripture, that tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ, if you simply go on arguing about spiritual matters—"This is not, this is not, this is not, yes, this is not..." I say something; you say something. No, no, no. You cannot realize spiritual objects simply by this speculation, argument. Our argument or logical, I mean to say, strength has no access in the spiritual world. The Vedic mantra says, nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena: "Atma, the supreme self, cannot be realized pravacanena." Suppose I am very expert speaker, I can present things very nicely—but without any substance. Oh, that won't help you. Simply by jugglery of words, if I can captivate you, oh, that won't help you. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena. This is pravacana.
Our proposition is you chant God's name. That is our proposal. Therefore it is universal. If you like, you can chant Jehovah or you can chant Allah, but we request you that you chant God's name. Is it very difficult? It is not at all difficult. Lord Caitanya said that there are innumerable names of God according to different languages, different countries, different societies. And each and every one of them has the potency of God Himself. If there is any God, so God is Absolute; therefore there is no difference between His name and He Himself. Just like in the material world, in the world of duality there is difference between the name "water" and the substance water. The name water is different from the substance water. If you are thirsty, if you simply chant, "Water, water, water, water," your thirstiness will not be quenched. You require the substance water. That is material, but spiritually, the name Kṛṣṇa or the name Allah or the name Jehovah is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
When our full attention is there, full absorption, full concentration of the mind, that is consciousness. And another way of consciousness is the feeling which is spread all over your body. Just like I pinch over your head or any part of your body, you feel—that is consciousness. But when this body is dead or when you are out of this body, if I chop up your body, there is no consciousness. That is the distinction between consciousness. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. In the Bhagavad-gītā the consciousness is stated: avināśi. Avināśi means cannot, never dies. Always living. Avināśi tu tad viddhi. You just try to understand that thing without always living. What is that? Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam—by which your whole body is spread by air(?). And anywhere of your body, that consciousness is spread. And that substance, consciousness, is always living. When you leave this body this consciousness goes to another body. Just like the air passes, the flavor the air carries from one garden to another place. Similarly, this consciousness will carry you to another body after your death. After you leave this body... Just like we are changing our consciousness also from childhood consciousness to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, and the old age. The consciousness is carrying me although the body is changing. Similarly, when you change this body, the consciousness will carry you to another body. That consciousness is always living. It is never dead. (break) Because they don't take it.
This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a self-purification movement. The method is vibration of transcendental sound. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, this sound, is not material sound. It is descended from the spiritual world. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name—not different. Abhinnatvāṁ nāma-nāminoḥ. As in this material world there is difference between the name and the substance... If you are thirsty, then if you simply chant "water, water, water," your thirst will not be quenched. You have to get the substance water. But in the spiritual world it is, being absolute, the name and the person whose name we are chanting, they are the same. Therefore by chanting this holy name of God, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Hare is addressing the spiritual energy of the Lord, and Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So by being in touch with the Supreme Lord and His energy directly, we become purified. Exactly like if you take one iron rod, put into the fire, it becomes warner, warmer, and at last it becomes red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron; it is fire.
All right. Bhagavad-gītā, in the Thirteenth Chapter, you will find, it is described: the body and the knower of the body. Just like you think over your body, you think over your finger. You will understand that it is your finger. When I think of this finger, I know this is my finger. When I think of this leg, I think that "This is my leg." But I don't think your finger as my finger. This knower is individual, and he knows not everything but something of his body. I do not know everything of my body. Suppose I am eating, I am eating something. How this eatable substance transforms into vitamin secretion and how it is being distributed all over the body and is supplying the energy? Or take, for example, I have got my hairs, but I do not know how many hairs I have got. Is not that a fact? Can you count your hairs, how many hairs you have got? So, so many things we do not know even of our body, although I am claiming that "This is my body."
So it is a great science. Bhāgavata-tattva vijñānam. It is not that you can create your Bhagavān by concoction, imagination. Just like the Māyāvādī philosophers say that sādhakānāṁ hitvārthāya brahmaṇo rūpa-kalpanaḥ(?): for the benefit or for the facility of the neophyte progressing in the spiritual knowledge, we have to imagine some form of the Brahman. That is not the fact. We do not find these things in the Vedic literature. We find in the Vedic literature that the Absolute Truth is realized in three features—Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. The substance is one, but according to our capacity, we understand differently. Just like example. If you see a great mountain, say Himalayan Mountain. Just like the other day when I was coming from Calcutta to Delhi, the Himalayan Mountains were seen from the plane, and it appeared just like a great city. But that is my shortage of vision. I cannot see what is Himalaya. Similarly, as we see imperfectly the Himalayan Mountain from a distant place, similarly, when the Absolute Truth is realized by the speculative process, he can simply understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by His effulgence as impersonal. And if you make further progress, then we can see... The same example. We are seeing the Himalayan Mountain from a distant place but if we make further advance, further, nearer, we see different thing. And when actually in the Himalayan Mountain, the thing is altogether different. Similarly, when you understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead from distance... Just like you cannot understand the sun globe from here. Although sunshine is light, sun globe is light, still we cannot understand what is sun globe from distant place.
Because you'll be in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name not different because Kṛṣṇa is absolute. So you see, these European and American boys and girls, simply by chanting how they are advancing in spiritual consciousness. This is practical, not theoretical. "Kṛṣṇa" means Kṛṣṇa. Just like here in this material world, if I want to drink water, if I say "water, water, water," that will not satisfy me. I want the substance water. So here there is difference between the name and the substance. But in the absolute world there is no such difference. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa the person and Kṛṣṇa's name the same thing. Therefore if you chant "Kṛṣṇa," then you are in direct touch with Kṛṣṇa. So that will help you for your spiritual advancement. Just like if you are in touch with fire you will get yourself warmer and warmer and warmer, and at last you'll get red fire. Similarly, if we are in touch with Kṛṣṇa, then we advance spiritually, and then we become completely spiritualized, our original Brahman. This is the process. Simple process. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and you'll gradually develop your spiritual consciousness. That is actually happening. It is not story.
Just like in your country, George Washington. Many scientists. In our country also, many big leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and others. Do you think that these men are combination of bag, combination-bag of bones and flesh and urine? Therefore, the śāstra says: yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Tri-dhātuke. This body is made of three elements, according to Ayur Vedic system, kapha pitta vāyu. Mucus, bile and air. So actually, the combination of this body is like that. As soon as the spirit soul goes out of this body, it is nothing but bones, flesh and urine and stool and it has to be thrown away. In every society, as soon as the man is dead... So, while he was living, he was acting so nicely, so intelligently. Now as soon as the soul is gone, immediately everything is gone. So do you think it is a combination of bones and flesh? Any sane man will accept it? If you say that something is wanting for giving impetus of birth of life in this body, therefore the body's called dead, that is not a fact. Because after this body's dead, after the soul is gone out of the body, innumerable microbes will come out, decomposition. You cannot say the ingredients which give impetus to generation of life, that is lacking. It is not lacking. Because it is not lacking, therefore millions of other microbes are coming out. That is not a fact, that this is the ingredient of life substance. There are so many arguments.
Where it is? So the same thing explained in the Vedic literature. Here it is said that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." So God being Absolute Truth, there is no difference between God, His form, His qualities, His words and everything relating to God. That is also God. Just like in the material world the name and the subject, or the substance, they are different. Just like when you are thirsty, you simply utter the word "water, water," it will not quench your thirst. But in the spiritual world, the name "God," or "Kṛṣṇa," and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, They are the same. Just parallel to this Bible passage I'll quote one Sanskrit verse from the Vedas.
I could have spoken in Hindi, but with the permission of Śrīpāda Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī, because most of my students here present, they could not understand the Hindi speaking, so it is my duty to inform them the substance of his speech in English so that you can appreciate how much he has eulogized our movement. You haven't got to be disappointed because some of the envious person, they are not accepting you as Vaiṣṇava. Śrīpāda Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī, quoting from many authorized scriptures, he has proved that in the matter of engaging oneself in the devotional service, there is no check, there is no impediment. That is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ahaituky apratihatā. That he has very nicely explained, quoting many authoritative statement from scriptures. And another thing... It is a fact that nobody can check Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. It is transcendental; it is not material. Unless one acts on the platform of spiritual activities, one cannot understand why bhakti is apratihatā. Pratihatā means checked by impediments. So that is for material things. Just like a living being, a soul, he is checked by this material body. Otherwise a living being can go anywhere, sarva-gaḥ. The spirit soul is free to move anywhere, but because we are now covered by the material body, we are checked. But devotional service is on the transcendental platform; it cannot be checked. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is explained, ahaituky apratihatā yenātmā samprasīdati.
There is no need of friendly talks. You can give me instruction seriously because I am surrendered to You, and You give me the real instruction," so the first instruction was, as soon as Arjuna submitted... Because unless you submit, it is useless to talk because you'll not hear. Therefore to accept an authority is submission. First thing is, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). Unless you submit, if you think yourself that you are a very big scholar, very learned scholar and very good philosopher—you don't require any instruction from guru—then there is no possibility. The first thing is Kṛṣṇa instructs in the Bhagavad-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. If you want to know the substance, then the first thing is that you must be submissive, praṇipāta. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipāta. You fall down. Therefore the system is: the disciple falls flat before the spiritual master. That is the etiquette, praṇipātena. And if you think that you know better than Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative, the guru, there is no necessity of accepting guru. Do not keep a guru as a pet dog. No. You must be submissive. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). This is wanted. That Kṛṣṇa... That is the example given by Arjuna. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). This prapannam is required.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: That monad, as we say, Kṛṣṇa, as we understand from Brahma-saṁhitā, that Kṛṣṇa is within the atom also.
Śyāmasundara: He says that a monad is the force or activity which constitutes the essence of a substance.
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is the substance, summum bonum. Aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). He is within everything. That is His all-pervasive nature.
Śyāmasundara: Then how are the individualities accounted for?
Prabhupāda: Every individual soul is awarded a little portion of independence, because every individual soul is part and parcel of God, so he has got the quality of independence, in minute quantity. That is individuality.
Śyāmasundara: Just like, for instance, say, this particulate substance, he would say that there is a force or activity which constitutes the essence of this substance, and that is the monad of this substance. He is attributing it to everything, matter.
Prabhupāda: That individual is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa knows that so many atoms will be combined, then another thing will be formed. It is not the individual soul but Kṛṣṇa directly.
Śyāmasundara: But when you come to the living entities, then the individual soul is also there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Within the body. Both of them—Kṛṣṇa is also there, and the individual soul is also there.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the definition of substance is a being capable of action. Substance means to be capable of action, and that existence means action.
Prabhupāda: Substance is original. Other things are categories.
Śyāmasundara: So being capable of action, is that a good definition of substance?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Substance means the original cause, so He is completely able to act.
Śyāmasundara: He says to be is to be active.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to be means to be active. Without activity, what does it mean to be?
Śyāmasundara: He says that these monads change in their appearances because the inner desire impels it to pass from one phenomenal representation to another.
Prabhupāda: The monad does not change, but his mind has changed. But I do not know what this means, monads. He is complicating. He cannot express what is this monad.
Śyāmasundara: Monad is very vague. It means a small unit of oneness or unity, which is the substance behind everything else, even the atom.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent.
Śyāmasundara: He says, for instance, that a monad changes its appearance according to its desires.
Prabhupāda: That indication is for the soul. But Kṛṣṇa is not that. Kṛṣṇa is kuta; means he does not change.
Śyāmasundara: He says just like this thing, (holding up an object) it will change to another thing, to another thing, to another thing, depending on its desire, which impels it to change. He says that even behind some object there is some ability to change.
Śyāmasundara: He says just like a cherry, say a fruit...
Prabhupāda: In logic there is relative study, and at the end of all relative truth there is absolute truth, the summum bonum. So he has no idea of the summum bonum, or the substance.
Śyāmasundara: No. He denies any substance. He says just like a cherry or a fruit, it has certain sensory qualities such as sweetness, color, like that. He says that we are just like that, humans. We have certain "sensory qualities." We are made up of a series of mental activities or a complex of ideas, but this is all we are.
Prabhupāda: No. We have got senses also. The color is only, what is called, sensory qualities. It is a quality, but to appreciate that quality, we have the senses. An inert object, it has got the quality, but living entity, it has the senses to appreciate the quality.
Śyāmasundara: But he says these senses are only a bundle of perceptions, of ideas.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the living entity is superior to the inert matter. In Sanskrit language they are called tan mātrā. They are created for the sense; they are sense objects. I have got senses, I must appreciate something. That something is that quality or sensory quality. I have eyes, I must see something. So therefore there is color, there is beauty...
Śyāmasundara: He says the only authority is public opinion, and it changes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still it is authority. Public opinion, he says, or without public opinion, the king or royalty. There must be some authority to guide them. Otherwise there will be chaos.
Śyāmasundara: As far as his philosophy of religion, he rejected the idea of absolute matter and the concept of a soul as substance. He rejected the utility of scientific laws, and he rejected moral principles as objective realities. He says all religious ideas are relative. There is no certainty and anything religious may be merely probable but never certain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That also he says. Therefore religion means love of God. The means may be different in different processes of religion, but ultimately if one develops love of Godhead, that is the prima facie factor, love of God. So if any religious principle love of God is absent, that is simply show, it is not factual religion.
Śyāmasundara: He says that even the idea of God is merely probable but not certain.
Prabhupāda: That he cannot say. As soon as he speaks of authority, there must be a supreme authority. That is God.
Prabhupāda: So how to adjust? How to adjust is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. It says this material phenomenal world is coming into existence and again annihilated. Again coming. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this material nature, coming in manifestation and again vanquished, this process, coming into existence and then vanquished, this is also true. Just like day and night, it is coming and going. This is true. But night is not day; day is not night.
Śyāmasundara: The first antimony describes the quantity of the world. The second antimony deals with the quality of the world. The thesis is, "Every composite substance in the world is made up of simple parts, and nothing whatever exists but the simple, or that which is composed out of the simple." And the antithesis is, "No composite thing in the world is made up of simple parts, nor does anything simple exist anywhere in the world." On the one hand, everything is simple, made up of simple parts. On the other hand, nothing is simple; everything is complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The simple is, we say, the whole world is made of material energy. This is simple. Now, the component parts of material energy, there are so many things—mahat-tattva, then pradhāna, then puruṣa, then twenty-four elements, the five gross elements, eight subtle elements, the five senses, the objects of the senses—and in this way there are so many analytical complications.
Prabhupāda: So, that means he wants to arrive at the absolute, that there is no duality. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa says that His mission is to protect the devotees, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). And killing the demons. Kṛṣṇa actually did it. Just like He killed the Pūtanā, the great giant Pūtanā. Superficially he killed, but she got salvation exactly like His mother. Kṛṣṇa gave Pūtanā a position like His Mother Yaśodā. Then, what is the difference between loving Yaśodā and killing Pūtanā? Because He is absolute, whatever He does, it is good. God is good. So superficially you may see, "Now God is doing bad," but it is not bad, it is good. Therefore two opposing, viruddhatta samanvaya(?), the Sanskrit word is viruddhata samanvaya(?). Coinciding two opposing elements, and that He can do. Therefore if he comes to Kṛṣṇa, he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, then his philosophical aim will be fulfilled.
Śyāmasundara: He saw that his predecessors had become increasingly abstract in their thinking, trying to find out what is the nature of substance, the essential substance, and they had reduced it to nothingness, practically.
Prabhupāda: Because they do not know, that is vairasana(?). Nirākāra, nirākāra, the Sanskrit word... When one cannot actually specify what is the nature of God, what is the form of God, and by thinking, speculative speculating, they cannot come to the right conclusion, so out of frustration they say, "No, there is no God."
Śyāmasundara: The idea in itself is that thesis, the idea for itself is the antithesis. Now the idea...
Prabhupāda: The first thing is that idea, anything... Idea is not God. God is substance.
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Anything nonsense idea, that is not God. God has created you. You cannot create God. And they are creating God. Just like Vivekananda mission, yata mata tata patha. As many opinion you have got, you can have your religious way. Yata mata, this is their mission, yata mata tata patha, "Whatever you are thinking, all right." Ramakrishna, he wanted to realize God from any way. And later on he wanted to realize God by the Mohammedans' way and he asked the proprietor of the temple to allow him to take meat, cow's flesh. So when he asked, the proprietor said, "Please go out. Get out." Now don't real..., I don't want the (indistinct). This philosophy also you can realize God in any way, yata mata. Now he wanted to realize in the Mohammedan's way, therefore he thought it wise that he must eat cow's flesh. These things are there.
Śyāmasundara: If God is not an idea but He's substance, how do you mean that, substance? How do you define substance?
Prabhupāda: You define substance. What is your definition of substance?
Śyāmasundara: Substance is the...
Prabhupāda: Concrete.
Prabhupāda: I know. Something concrete. (indistinct). Substance is concrete. The gold idea and... Just like you know gold, and you know a big mountain. So now you form an idea, the gold mountain. This is idea. But when you see actually gold mountain, that is substance. This is difference between idea and substance. But you have never seen gold mountain but you say gold mountain. You combine some idea. You are thinking, "There is gold. Now if I get the mountain, like gold." So that is idea. But when you actually find a (indistinct), "Here is a gold mountain." That is fact. That is substance.
Śyāmasundara: Hegel's idea is that there is idea, then there is substance but the synthesis is spirit. Spirit combines both idea and substance.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but spirit is, according to our philosophy, the spirit is realized in three phases, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The supreme spirit is realized in three phases. An example is given, just like you see from a distant place the mountain, you see just like a hazy cloud. You go forward, you will see something, substance, green, and if you enter it you'll see so many trees, so many animals. So you are seeing the same object but according to your understanding, somebody is saying, "Oh, it is a cloud." Somebody is saying, "It is some green (indistinct)," and somebody is saying, "No, it is very nice place." It is a question of where he is standing, to understand God. So those who are standing in distant place, for them imperson. Just like we are seeing the sunshine imperson, and the sun globe localized, and if you have got capacity to enter into the sun globe, you'll see sun god. Similarly, God is realized in three capacities, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Either impersonal Brahman, or localized Paramātmā, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that...
Prabhupāda: His idea, but we are talking of substance.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. First before, for instance we make a table, we have to have an idea about a table.
Prabhupāda: No, that makes... Anything, if you are trying to approach by your idea, that is not substance.
Śyāmasundara: No, he says first there is the idea of something, then the substance, but spirit is that which...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no that is, that is...
Śyāmasundara: ...has both the idea and the substance.
Prabhupāda: When you think that first of all let us have an idea. That is not substance.
Śyāmasundara: No, so we, for instance the table. I want to build a table. So I have an idea this is what it's shaped like. Then I gather the substance together. There is a table.
Prabhupāda: Now, why idea? If you are going to make a table, you have seen table, that is not idea, that is substance. Why do you say idea? Nonsense, it is not idea.
Śyāmasundara: Suppose I've never seen a table?
Prabhupāda: But then you cannot say what is table. (laughter)
Śyāmasundara: But I have an idea, I want to make something...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is false. As soon as you speak of idea, that is nonsense. You cannot make an idea of God. That is nonsense. What do you think?
Devotee: (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: All ideas are coming from Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Idea is coming because there is substance.
Śyāmasundara: I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about the objects of the senses.
Prabhupāda: Anything, anything, you cannot make an idea of table. You are...
Śyāmasundara: I can make an idea...
Śyāmasundara: So you are saying that the ideal also has substance.
Prabhupāda: Substance, everything substance.
Śyāmasundara: For instance the ideal table, the ideal table. I don't see any table that's ideal but I can imagine there's one ideal table...
Prabhupāda: No, no, if you do not know what is table, you cannot manufacture table. You have to ask what is table. You have to ask somebody that... You have got... Practically unless you see or know from some way or other how can you manufacture a table?
Śyāmasundara: Just like Albert Einstein, he thought about this theory...
Prabhupāda: Because he's Albert Einstein, he's not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: No, but he was able to conceptualize that the speed of light squared times the mass equals the energy of an object. And then he was able to experiment in the laboratory and actually find out that it was true. But no one told him that formula. He found it out through process of idealizing, ideas.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is, he is studying science. He is a scientist. You cannot say but he's scientist. He, just like the same you are seeing the mountain from a distance, you are seer. Now the more you make progress you see it is green, then more progress, "Oh, it is (indistinct)." The seer, because he is scientist, he is searching so he is making progress but all of a sudden a layman cannot see like that.
Śyāmasundara: So there is always some substance which forms the contents of the idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes, idea means there is substance but I have not seen it. That is idea.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the spirit, the spirit is the one who both has ideas and puts them into practice.
Prabhupāda: We say spirit has got everything. Why this or that? Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming from. Why this or that? There is no such discrimination.
Śyāmasundara: What about a notion or a concept? How does that come into being if it has never existed before?
Prabhupāda: Notion, notion is the same thing like that. You have got, you have seen gold and you have seen mountain so you can build a golden mountain. Although you have never seen what is golden mountain.
Kīrtanānanda: But if I have that idea of a golden mountain, that means that in the spiritual world that must exist?
Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Spiritual world means everything existing. Unless there is substance in the spiritual world there cannot be anything even(?). Because it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is (indistinct).
Kīrtanānanda: But I can form an idea that is not in the spiritual world. Am I understanding you?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pradyumna: We're a reflection, just like (indistinct) there's no dogs in Vaikuṇṭha, but there's dogs here, the dog's mentality is here.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is called temporary. Dog is a spirit soul. The spirit soul is there. That's a fact.
Śyāmasundara: There's a, for instance in mathematics, advanced mathematics has to do with sets of formulas, equations, symbols which have no place in reality. They have no substance. They're merely ideas on paper or in my brain. What about these kind of ideas. They are, how to say, like the square root of minus one.
Prabhupāda: Ad infinitum, ad infinitum, like that.
Śyāmasundara: Like the square root of minus one. There is no substantial reference for that idea but there is an equation: the square root of minus one.
Prabhupāda: The ultimate understanding, if we have accept this formula janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), so everything is emanating from the substance, so without having a place of that idea in the substance, you cannot have... That is another thing (indistinct). Because you are also a product of that something. So whatever you are thinking, that must be there, in the original.
Śyāmasundara: Suppose I have an idea, tomorrow I want to go to Pittsburgh. So then I actualize my idea, tomorrow if I go to the airplane, airport, get a ticket...
Prabhupāda: But you have heard that Pittsburgh, there is a place, a substance, you may not have seen. So you are preparing to go to Pittsburgh means Pittsburgh is a fact. Not idea. You are not going to idea Pittsburgh, you are going to actual Pittsburgh. That you have known, therefore you are (indistinct). You might have not seen. Just like I came to New York. I never saw it. I got an idea, "It may be like this." But I was coming to actual fact.
Kīrtanānanda: Now I see your point.
Śyāmasundara: I see your point also but supposing then that I have an idea I'm going to a vacant place, a vacant land and build a house which has never existed before...
Prabhupāda: So you have seen other house, that you have got this idea.
Śyāmasundara: No, but millions of years ago before there was any house... Suppose I am the first man on the planet, there has never existed any other house, then I get an idea to build a house, does that idea precede the substance?
Prabhupāda: Yes, according to our philosophy, just like Brahmā. Brahmā, he created another universe in his previous birth, but in this birth he forgot. So therefore he underwent tapasya for one hundred years, is it not? It is stated. So it is called... Just like you know something, so you think (indistinct). This is like that.
Śyāmasundara: If I invent a new invention...
Prabhupāda: It is not invention. That I am seeking where I have kept a thing, that means it is there, I have not forgot.
Śyāmasundara: In other words it existed before.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because you cannot invent anything which is not in the substance.
Śyāmasundara: Even if I invent, for instance I invent the atomic bomb...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of inventing. The atomic bomb, what is that, it is brahmāstra, it is already made. You are not inventing.
Śyāmasundara: Where does the idea come from?
Prabhupāda: From the origin.
Śyāmasundara: From our past lives?
Prabhupāda: From the origin, yes.
Prabhupāda: That is, that is, I have explained in Bhagavad-gītā that a yogī remembers in due course, past activities, and again he begins. Where he left it, from that point again he begins. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). He is given the chance.
Kīrtanānanda: So all ideas can be traced back to the original substance which is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Everything from Me." Therefore if you get Kṛṣṇa, then you get all the substance. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the Vedic statement. If you simply understand God, then you understand everything.
Śyāmasundara: So you say that form precedes idea.
Prabhupāda: What?
Śyāmasundara: Form precedes idea, not idea precedes form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept that. Form precedes idea.
Devotee: In one of the chapters of the Bhāgavatam you state that before man has an idea about anything, the Supreme Lord has the idea. In the Vedic aphorism, the Lord's eyes see before our eyes, His ears hear before our ears, and actually all substance, before you get an idea there must be the substance, and the substance is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: And any idea that we have, whether good or bad, that has come from Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fifteenth Chapter, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15), "The ideas are coming from Me."
Devotee: So if a person thinks he has an idea of a skyscraper building, it's because Paramātmā has given him that idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he gets idea: "Yes, there is a building like that, you can do that." For man there cannot be anything, invention. He can say "discovered", there is nothing invented.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that these two things are opposing, idea and substance, they are thesis and antithesis but the spirit contains both of them so it is the synthesis.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we agree. Viruddha (Sanskrit), viruddha, contradictory thing can be adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Because what is viruddha, opposite, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa, and what is substance, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. We are thinking viruddha. Just like this same example, cooler and heater. They are opposite but they are coming from electricity. Therefore in electricity power, both can be adjusted(?). You can say, "Electricity can be cooler, electricity can be heater." That is called viruddha (Sanskrit). Contradictory things adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Inconceivable, therefore we say inconceivable. Simultaneously one and different. That is our philosophy. Simultaneously we are all equal, one with God, and different. In our..., this material world, it is impossible to think like that, therefore it is called inconceivable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when many Brahmās came. So not only four-headed but millions of headed Brahmās.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. So I can conceive of that so it must exist.
Prabhupāda: The substance is, the fact is you cannot conceive anything which is not in existence.
Śyāmasundara: So somewhere must be the square root of minus one, even though...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, spiritual world is like that. But here in this material world, we have got experience, one plus one equal to two, and one minus one equal to zero. In the spiritual world this does not apply. There one plus one equals one and one minus one equals one. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation), Vedic wisdom. Pūrṇam, that from the complete, you take the complete, still it is complete. So where you have got this idea? So therefore you have to know from the Vedic.
Śyāmasundara: They say they will be able to take out someone like Einstein's brain when his body dies and keep it alive, a disembodied brain, and use it like a computer.
Prabhupāda: All right. Whatever. (sounding disgusted) No. All rascals, fools. As if in the brain there is the thing. What is this brain? It is a material substance, what is there, lump of matter.
Śyāmasundara: Just like they can take a heart out of a living being and they put it in a machine and keep it alive and then they transplant it to some other person.
Prabhupāda: The same intelligence, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13), they're trying to find out life in this lump of matter. That is their defect.
Śyāmasundara: They'll spend so many billions of dollars, and years of work.
Prabhupāda: The same example. Just like computer machine. They do not find that the machine is made by a brain which is different from this material. But he's trying to find out a brain from this. This is their childish... The brain is different from machine. The machine is lump of iron. And the one who is working with the machine is a different from the machine. That they do not know. That they do not know. That is their defect. Now what is this computer machine will do unless there is a worker in the computer room, highly salaried man?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Something on the way, something comes up.
Prabhupāda: Then there, it has changed. It has changed. The circumstances have changed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) very, very delicate, the substances that they are handling, the cells of the the microorganisms. They are also subjected to different changes, without knowing anything. So, but they're taking that things are thus perfect, (indistinct) based on their perfect thinking, what they have learned is infallible. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Therefore our śāstra says these classes of men, no better than cows and asses. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Go means cows and asses. We take them like go-kharaḥ, cows and asses. They may speculate, but we take them, "You are no better than asses and cows."
Śyāmasundara: They work very hard for a little morsel of grass.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. Some fools will give them credit, and that credit is given by such class of men: dogs, hogs, camels and asses. No good men. Kṛṣṇa conscious men will never give them anything. But men like dogs, hogs, asses and camels will give them. Samstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ, this they are. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ (SB 2.3.19). Saṁstutaḥ means eulogized. This class of men will be eulogized by whom? By dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. No Vyāsadeva will give them credit; no Nārada will give them credit; neither Kṛṣṇa will give them credit, nor followers of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will give them credit. Because they have a criterion to know what kind of man he is. They have got śāstra, and from the śāstra it is understood one who is accepting this body as the self, he is no better than cow and ass. That is our culture. He has not still found out that the worker of the machine is different. This body is just like machine. May be composed of highly mechanical arrangement, electronic parts and this and that, so many things, but after all, it is a machine! And this machine must be worked by somebody. He must be living. He is not machine.
Prabhupāda: Whose experience? Your experience?
Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say whose experience. Just experience.
Prabhupāda: What does it mean? Experience, there are different types of experience. Your experience is different from my experience. Then we have to calculate whose experience.
Śyāmasundara: He says the substance called experience sometimes manifests in mind, sometimes manifests as matter. So, for instance, the substance of these flowers is made up of the experience gathered from previous flowers.
Prabhupāda: Whose experience? I am asking whose experience? It is not your experience, so nice flowers. You have not made it.
Śyāmasundara: Presumably the flower's experience.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. The flower's experience. (laughs) Just see.
Śyāmasundara: He just calls this pure experience. He doesn't say whose experience.
Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect. He is speculating, that's all.
Hayagrīva: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes, "The founders of every church owe their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the Divine. Not only the superhuman founders—the Christ, the Buddha, Muhammad—but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case. So personal religion should still seem the primordial thing even for those who continue to esteem it incomplete."
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is person. If He is the supreme father, the father is a person. We have got no experience of father being imperson. My father is person, his father is person, his father is person. In this way go on, father's father's..., searching. So the ultimate father is also person. There is no doubt about it. Either human father or animal father, every living being is a person. Therefore the right conclusion is God the father of all living being is person. Personal conception of God is there in every religion-Christian religion, Muhammadan religion, or Vedic religion. In the Vedic religion, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayoḥ. Those who are sura, means advanced in spiritual knowledge, or the brāhmaṇas, one who knows the Supreme, they find the supreme father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa is the same category, or same substance. So God is person and the ultimate end. The impersonal realization is imperfect realization of God. The Supersoul realization is still advancement, but the final advancement is Bhagavān, or person God. So we must know our relationship with, and first of all our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him, then act accordingly. Then our life becomes perfect. This is the process of God realization.
Śyāmasundara: He claims that the consciousness of death makes a difference in the choices that an individual makes during his life. He says that the consciousness that this body will end, this consciousness guides him to choose in a certain way.
Prabhupāda: So what is that way? The atheists, they think that "I shall die. That will finish. So let me enjoy to the best capacity. There is no question of pāpa and puṇya." That is atheist philosophy. "I have got this opportunity of sense enjoyment. Let me enjoy, to the best capacity, my senses." Because he has no next life. Void. Because after death everything is zero. So "Why should I care for 'This is pāpa, and this is puṇya.' Whatever is palatable for me, I shall do that." But he has got also consciousness of death. Another, we have also got consciousness of death. So our philosophy is that before death, let us inquire in such a way that we may go back to home, back to Godhead. Both of them have got the death consciousness. The one whose spiritual is zero, he is doing all nonsense. And one who knows that spiritual is not zero—there is real substance—so "Let me prepare for death." (break) (end)
Śyāmasundara: So it seems like I could come to that same conclusion without consulting a scientist, that I could...
Prabhupāda: You cannot. That is our version. You cannot. Because simply you are puzzled with the sound, that's all. So wherefrom the sound comes, you have to approach the authorities.
Devotee: It seems like with his method he could get to the point of ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He'll recognize the spiritual substance behind everything eventually, just like the growing..., starting with the point of the leaf. He can gradually reach the point of understanding that it is spirit.
Prabhupāda: Then gradually.
Devotee: (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: He does reach that point. In the end part of his philosophy he comes to that point of understanding everything is spirit, but we're just at the beginning of outlining the process.
Prabhupāda: But how he can understand the existence spirit simply by speculation?
Śyāmasundara: Just like you were saying that the knowledge could come from within—how something, what is the substance behind something, of a leaf or a flower.
Prabhupāda: That is already described: then he must be very pure.
Devotee: (indistinct) for anyone though or just for himself?
Śyāmasundara: Any human living entity, human entity, can follow the same process if he's intelligent. Anyways, to proceed: it says that after this phenomenal, logical reduction, the residue or the essence of the thing which remains is characterized in a threefold structure. In other words, after you analyze one phenomenon, you could use certain essences of that phenomenon. Those essences are composed of three things.
Prabhupāda: Three dimensions.
Hayagrīva: Now this theory... Freud's principal disciple was the famous psychologist Carl Jung. They had an argument, and Freud once fainted, and when he came to, his words were, Freud's words were, "How sweet it must be to die." And in Beyond the Pleasure Principle, he writes, "The most universal endeavor of all living substance, namely, to return to the quiescence of the inorganic world. We have all experienced how the greatest pleasure attainable by us, that of the sexual act, is associated with the momentary extinction of a highly intensified excitation. Thus the pleasure principle, the sex act itself, is preliminary to the most highly desired nirvāṇa, the extinction of desires, and ultimately the extinction of the life functions themselves. Thus the pleasure principle seems actually to serve the death instincts."
Prabhupāda: So where is the pleasure when he is dead? What is that pleasure?
Hayagrīva: Well there is pleasure, and then when pleasure is cultivated, culminated...
Prabhupāda: That pleasure is in the stone. So why you are...
Hayagrīva: That's inorganic. He spoke of the return, the quiescence of the inorganic world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: He says that "Material in itself is nonconscious, inert, fixed, opaque, uncreated, devoid of potency, lacking becoming, and without any reason for existing; therefore it is superfluous." In other words, existence doesn't have any meaning.
Prabhupāda: So what is the substance?
Śyāmasundara: Well, there is no meaning to anything. It's just here. There is no tracing out. It's not created; it's just here.
Prabhupāda: This kind of philosophy is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā as asuric philosophy, demonic philosophy, because the demons, they do not believe in any superior cause. They everything take as accidental. Just like a man and woman unite accidentally and a child is born. It is like that. There is no actually purpose. The Śaṅkara philosophy, atheistic Śaṅkara philosophy is also like that. Prakṛti and puruṣa meets. All of a sudden there is lust and they meet, and there is some product; otherwise there is no other cause. This sort of theory is called asuric.
Śyāmasundara: He says that this no-thingness, nothingness...
Prabhupāda: This is not nothing. This is substance. He cannot say nothingness. He has no eyes to see. The principle which is changing, that is important. He cannot say it is nothing.
Śyāmasundara: But it doesn't have qualities of being a thing, of mass...
Prabhupāda: No. The idea... Actually he has the quality of becoming massive. The same thing we can... Just like the active principle which develops the body within the womb. He may not accept it as soul or something, but without that active principle, simply cohabit of the male and female and combination of secretion does not develop the body. The active principle must be there. So as soon as the active principle is there, the combination of male and female secretion acts, and it develops into body, mass body. You can develop into an ant or you can develop into a big hill. That is the difference. Just like a seed, a small seed, that is active principle. So from that seed a big tree develops. So this existence of the big tree depends on that small seed. That is the active principle. Why it is nothing? That is nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore material knowledge is always imperfect. That is the conclusion.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind plays no part in the process of evolution, because the only evidence for the existence of mental phenomena is a fragment of space and time. But this is not a substance; it is simply a set of relations.
Prabhupāda: He does not know it is also matter, but very subtle matter. It is matter. Just like ether—you cannot touch, you cannot see, but still it is matter. And mind is subtler than the ether. But it is matter. Intelligence is subtler than the mind, but still it is matter. So from Vedic authorities we understand that earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, they are all material.
Dr. Rao: And ahaṅkāra, ego.
Prabhupāda: Ego, that is also matter.
Prabhupāda: Authority. So where is the difference in principle? There is no difference, but everyone will say that "I am the best leader." But who will select the best leader? What is the criterion of best leader?
Hayagrīva: Well the basic difference is that Marx believes that there's nothing spiritual; everything is material. He says, "An incorporeal substance is just as much a contradiction as an incorporeal body."
Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance, because this body is dead. That what is the difference between the dead body and the... The same Marx and same Lenin was lying, but because there is no spirit sould it was considered as dead. This is imperfect understanding of the man, of the body. Otherwise, I mean to say, man of sense studies there must be a spiritualism and materialism. Spiritualism..., spirit means the force behind the matter. It can be understood very easily that matter as it is, it is inactive. A machine may be very well made, but without a person, a living being, the machine is useless. So that is the difference between spirit and matter. Matter can be active only in touch with the spirit. Similarly, the body is active when there is soul within the body. This can be easily understood, unless one is very dull. Spirit cannot be denied.
Śyāmasundara: So the one characteristic that they all have is that they are individuals, that they are individual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One characteris... One is substance, another is character, character.
Śyāmasundara: Category.
Prabhupāda: Category, yes.
Śyāmasundara: So the second thing that he sees that characterizes everything, that all things possess in common, is existence, or being.
Prabhupāda: That is five elements. Just like there are differences between tree and your body, my body, but this body is made of the five elements: earth, water, air, fire. The tree is also made of the same elements, earth, water, air, fire... The aquatic body, fish's body, is also made of the same ingredients. Only difference is that one ingredient is prominent, other ingredients... Therefore you can take up this fact that there are living entities in the sun. The sun, because it appears fiery, you cannot exist. Your body cannot exist in the fire. But it does not mean there cannot be somebody whose body itself is fire. How can you deny it? And body being fiery, he can stay in the fiery planet of the same temperature.
Hayagrīva: Well his, his impersonalist stand leads toward pantheism.
Prabhupāda: This is also kind of meditation, speculating that "God should be like this." What is that? But they cannot define what is that, this.
Hayagrīva: He says, "The concept of God as a separate substance is impossible and contradictory."
Prabhupāda: God is everything. There is no question of separation. That is defined in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, "I am everything." So how He can be separate?
Hayagrīva: But he rejects God as a separate person.
Prabhupāda: He may reject, but God is everything. How he can reject God? The, the, these are the defects of speculators. They cannot give us tangible leading. That because they are defective themselves, so whatever interpretation they will give, all defective.
Hayagrīva: Oh, he would agree that God is everything.
Prabhupāda: That God is..., how he can reject? If God is everything, then how can he reject?
Hayagrīva: Aristotle's belief in the soul changed. He has three conceptions of the soul. One is that the soul is a separate substance, another is that the body is the instrument of the soul, and the third is the soul is the form of the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this can be explained. The body is just like the dress of the soul. So our dress is made according to our body. The tailor takes the measurement of the body and makes the coat accordingly. So the coat appears with the hand because we have got hand. Coat, pant appears as a leg because we have got leg. So this body is simply a, what is called, coating or shirting of the soul. Actually the soul has got form, shape, form, and therefore the cloth, which will generally have no shape, is, when it comes in contact with the soul, it becomes a shape.
Hayagrīva: Spinoza. Spinoza says that "The infinite God must possess infinite attributes." He is saying that God, being the basis of all existence, cannot be described in a material way. He is a pantheist in the sense that he believes in the one substance. However, he believes that God has infinite divine attributes, and only two of these attributes fall within the realm of human experience, and these are thought and extension, or mind and matter.
Prabhupāda: So, so far God is concerned, and undoubtedly He is unlimited and His qualities are unlimited. So His one of the most important quality is called Bhakta-vatsala. He is very much dear to His devotee, Bhakta-vatsala. So He has unlimited devotees and unlimited dealings with them; therefore He is unlimitedly expanded. That is pantheism. But it does not mean because He is unlimitedly expanded, His personality is lost. He is person always, even though He is unlimitedly expanded. That is the Vedic version: pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam eva avaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). He is complete, and if another complete form expands from Him, still He remains complete. He is not lost. The material conception is if one unit, if something is taken from it, then it becomes less of that thing. But God is so complete that you can go on taking from Him unlimitedly, still He remains unlimited. That is pantheist. I think they are impersonalist.
Hayagrīva: Earthen pots, pot that's made of earth.
Prabhupāda: So it is staying on earth, so the earthen pot is not different from the earth. So everything is expansion of God's energy. How we can avoid God with reference to anything that we see? There cannot be anything independent of God. The example is there: the earthen pot, as soon as you see, we remember the potter, that "Who has made?" and the wheel of the potter. So a... God is the original creator, He is the ingredient, and He is the category also, and He is the original substance. That is the conception, Vedic conception of God. He is everything. That is nondual conception. And if you make anything separate from God, then how you can say sarvaṁ khalu idaṁ brahma, "Everything is Brahman"? Then if you say everything is God, at the same time you separate something from God, so that is, what is called, contradiction. Our conception is, "Yes, actually everything has reference to the God, so everything is God's property. It should be utilized for God's service." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Hayagrīva: Huxley did appear to have..., to adhere to the doctrine of transmigration. He says, "The doctrine of transmigration constructs a plausible indication of the ways of the cosmos to man. Every sentient being is reaping as it has sown, if not in this life then in one or other of the infinite series of antecedent existences of which it is the latest turn." In Evolution and Ethics he writes about brahman and ātmān and liberation. He says, "The earlier forms of Indian philosophy agreed with those prevalent in our times, and supposing the existence of a permanent reality or substance beneath the shifting series of phenomena, whether of matter or of mind, the substance of the cosmos was brahman, that of individual man ātmān, and the latter, that is ātmān, was separated from brahman only by its..."
Prabhupāda: That is also not. He is not separated. He is, brahman and ātmān, they are existing, co-existing, and that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in the chapter "Kṣetra and Kṣetrajña." The body is the field, and the ātmā, individual soul, is the owner of the field or the worker in the field. So it is also said there is another owner, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ vidhi. As the individual is working in the body, similarly, there is another soul working in the body. So what is the difference between the two? The two is different that the individual soul knows only about his own body, but the other soul, Supersoul, He knows everything of every body. That is the difference. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body. But this Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of this body, of that body, of millions and millions of bodies. That is the difference between the two souls. But the two souls are there. One is called Supersoul, paramātmā, and the individual soul is called ātmā. So ātmā and paramātmā are there. The difference between them is that ātmā knows about his own body and the paramātmā knows everything of all bodies. That is the difference.
Purports to Songs
I do not take part in the saṅkīrtana movement. I do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. I do not understand what is Lord Caitanya. Then what for I am living?" This is lamentation. "What is my happiness? What is the standard of my happiness? Why I am living?" Narottama dāsa kena nā gela. "Why I did not die long, long ago? I should have died. What is the meaning of my living?" So it is not Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's lamentation. Everyone of us should think like that, that "If we cannot make association with devotees, if we do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we do not come in touch with Lord Caitanya and associates, it was better for me to die. And there is no other remedy." This is the substance of this song. (end)
| Page Title: | Substance (Lectures) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 14 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=138, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 138 |