Prabhupāda: Ah. So you can understand English then. So (Sanskrit). Duṣkṛtinaḥ means... kṛtiḥ means meritorious, very meritorious. But duṣkṛtiḥ. Whatever merit he has got... Nowadays at the present moment the civilization is so mad that everyone as human being... Any human being he has got some merit because he is not cat and dog. He's a man. As a man he has got brain, better than the cats and dogs. That's a fact. And actually they're doing so many things. Just like this picture. It is a very meritorious workmanship. So everyone can do some meritorious workmanship. But when that workmanship is diverted to, for the use of sinful activities... Just like one man is very meritorious, he's planning to form a party how to plunder. This requires merit. Without merit you cannot form a party. But the merit is being used for plundering, for harassing, for so many other sinful activities. So that is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there but the merit is being misused for sinful activities. Therefore duṣkṛtiḥ. Just like modern scientist. It is meritorious that they have discovered the atomic bomb. The merit is used for killing. If you just use your merit so that man may live; that they're dying. Everyone is dying. So you have discovered a bomb which will accelerate death. Death, everyone is going to die. So if you manufacture something which will actually help my death, is that very meritorious? If you discover something that will stop my death, that is meritorious. But everyone is dying and you have discovered some machine so that you can die quickly. What is the merit? But people are appreciating, "Oh, this is meritorious." This is called duṣkṛtiḥ. Duṣkṛtiḥ, mean one has got merit, it is being spoiled for doing something wrong. This is called duṣkṛtiḥ. So such people, duṣkṛtinaḥ, who, one who is using the merit for sinful activities, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15) and rascal. Rascal means denying the existence of God. He's a rascal. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he's a rascal. Rascal means poor fund of knowledge. Everything... Suppose this is a country, Indonesia, nicely being managed; the roads are there; the policemen there, they're directing... Just yesterday we were trying to enter in a one way, policeman directs. So this symptom says that there is a good government. So any sane man, he'll see the cosmic manifestation—that the sun is rising exactly in time; the moon is rising exactly in time; the seasons are changing; the seas is in its position. Just like the Pacific Ocean at any moment it can overflow at any place. But it does not do so. You walk... I was walking in Los Angeles just about three feet away from the sea. So I was explaining to my students, "Now, I am just three feet away from the sea and the sea is so vast.
Students (Conversations 1973 - 1974)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say, "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money, what can be done? But I don't think if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required. Human being, after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep them (indistinct), how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me (indistinct) this way. We have to do like that. Not that I (order), "Come on, you do this. Oh, you cannot do, get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for preaching and that preaching means one should behave himself, nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda Kumāra, you. He was accusing you, you were accusing him.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then their hearts will be changed.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Yesterday, somebody has thanked to our students that: "Oh, we are so obliged to you that you are supplying Bhāgavatam." Is it not, somebody has said?
Devotees: Yes yes. Tripurāri said that. Tripurāri.
Prabhupāda: Oh Tripurāri Yes. Somebody said like that?
Tripurāri: Yes, two boys yesterday at the airport, they bought two sets of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams.
Jayatīrtha: Complete?
Tripurāri: Six volumes. They held the Bhāgavatams and said: "Thank you very much." And then they put them in their lockers and they were waiting for their plane and they each had the First Canto...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sincere man will feel obliged of our, this propaganda movement. "By distributing these books, you are doing a great service to Kṛṣṇa." He wanted to say everyone: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). He comes, therefore. So anyone who is doing the same service, that: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69). In the human society, nobody is dearer than him who is helping preaching work. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa. Then your scientific knowledge is perfect. Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department. Any department. It doesn't matter. Through that department you go to the ultimate center. Just like here is center. And there are so many spokes. So many spokes. So whichever spoke you may be, come to the center. That is your perfection. The spokes may be of different direction.
Prabhupāda: In my honors class, I had history. He was teaching us history.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the standard of Calcutta University, Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time when Śrīla Prabhupāda was in the University? How was the...
Prabhupāda: Oh, it was nice. Very nice students were coming out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The moral standard was very good?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We respected our professors like our fathers. The relationship between the student and the professors was very good. I had one Scottish professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. He was my nice friend. He was professor of philosophy, psychology. Later on he became vice-chancellor.
Brahmānanda:Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Calcutta, yes. A very perfect gentleman. Kind-hearted. Sometimes we joked. We were taking this, what is called, peanuts. So the professor was passing. So some of our friends remarked: (Bengali) So he thought that professor did not know Bengali. So immediately he turned: (Bengali). So we became very much ashamed. Yes. So all the professors from foreign countries, they were instructed to learn Bengali language, local language. That was the system. All officers, big officers, educate... (Aside) Good morning. ...big educationists, they were to learn the local language. And they used to learn Bengali. Especially in Calcutta. There was one professor, Mr. Scrimgeour. He was professor of literature, English literature. So while teaching one English literature, he was giving parallel passage from Bankim Candra Chatterjee. Yes. "Your Bankim babu says like this." He used to say like that.
Prabhupāda: No, that... When they discuss, they must describe the good points only. But some of the British rulers were very, very unkind. And the last was that Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, created by Lord Chelmsford. Then the British rule finished. In 1917, and immediately Gandhi started non-cooperation movement. So after thirty years, the Britishers were obliged to leave.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Scottish Church College in Calcutta...
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was student there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Śrīla Prabhupāda was in Scottish Church?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very popular among the...
Prabhupāda: Oh, Yes. In Calcutta, there are two colleges, Presidency College and Scottish Churches College. All respectable families, son will go there, Scottish Churches College, Presidency College.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They started almost at the same time?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is very old. Presidency College is government, and Scottish Churches College, by the Scottish Church missionaries. There was one priest, Duff, his name was Duff. He started in Srirampur, a small educational institute, Duff Institute. He was a Scotsman. Later on, all the Scottish missionaries combined together and they started this Scottish Churches College.
Brahmānanda: Anyone who does that is either criminal or insane.
Prabhupāda: Yes, insane. All criminality is done when one is insane. That is the definition of the Vedas. Everyone is criminal when he's insane. Sane man never commits any criminality. Just like when a, when a man commits murder, unless he becomes insane, he cannot commit murder.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So among the college students, among the college students it's very common that they say: "I don't care what is said." These people, students.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to, I want to follow my own aim and desire, my own morality. They say like that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why don't you do that in case of your relationship to the state. Suppose the state says: "You must drive to the right." Why don't you drive on the left? Why do you obey the state laws? What does he say? You do whatever you like.
Brahmānanda: That means there's someone more powerful than they are.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: They have to obey.
Prabhupāda: Immediately he'll be kicked on his face. "You rascal, why you driving. Kick on your..."(laughter) and what he'll say at that time? Can he say that: "Yes, it is my law. I'll do this." Can he say like this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He cannot say like this.
Prabhupāda: Then, then what is this? It is insanity. What you cannot do, if you say: "I can do it," Then it is insanity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is scientist. But you haven't got that. But why you...? You are punishable. Just like if somebody is not a bona fide medical practitioner, but he gives: "Doctor M.D.," he's punishable. There are so many bogus. They are not detected. But if they are detected, they are punishable. If you say that: "Yes, I am a student, I am not a scientist, I have no full knowledge," that is right. You have no perfect knowledge. Still you say "There is no God." How is that? You have no perfect knowledge. How do you say there is no God. Eh? They say there is no God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if they admit they have no perfect knowledge, how they can say there is no God, or there is God? They cannot say.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very doubtful.
Prabhupāda: Doubtful. That means not perfect knowledge. So how they can say that there is no God. They can say: "Yes, there may be or may not be. We do not know." That is a gentleman. How they can say there is no God? And people are misled. "Oh, such and such scientist has said there is no God. Therefore there is no God." He does not know that he's a perfectly foolish. His statement has no value. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21), because he has posed himself as a very big man, people follow him blindly and they're misled.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because there is no solid background.
Prabhupāda: No. (pause, japa) You and Dr. Rao just make a combination, world-touring. I shall give you all expenditure. And go to the universities, scientists, and talk with them. Our kīrtana party also will go. We challenge all scientists, "Come on." We shall pay all expenditure. Ask Dr. Rao to come and join. Just like in Calcutta University, all the students... No, one leader student, he came. He talked about economic development, and he said that "Our students did not derive any faith by your theological statement." So I told them that "Because you are all rascals, therefore you could not." I told them freely. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā... Because they are student of Sanskrit. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). "So you are amongst these. You are duṣkṛtinas, sinful, lowest of the mankind, and the university is responsible for creating such rascals." So professors clapped and later on they said, "Swamiji, you have rightly said." All the professors said. And so far economic question is concerned, the birds, beasts, animals, they have no economic concern. Why you have got? You are less than bird and beast, you have created this economic problem. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Where is the economic question? The small birds, tiny birds, they are solving their economic question, coming (makes sound:) "bup, bup," finished. They are not stocking, they are not thinking of tomorrow, but are satisfied. They have got eating, sufficient eating, sufficient sex, sufficient intelligence to defend. As soon as we go, immediately they fly away. That is defense. They know how to defend them. They immediately understand, "They are human beings, stronger. They may do some harm. Let us fly away." So these things are everywhere, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. There is no scarcity. Only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we have to preach. Theology... Logy means science, is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is done. Just like sometimes I think that I came here alone without any expectation of success, and this movement has become so nice. Actually, by one man's effort it was not possible. But it has become so. This is acintya-śakti, Kṛṣṇa's, inconceivable. Even a modern businessman, he cannot organize such a worldwide organization in such short a time. We have talked with many businessmen in India. Some said, "We have got thirty branches," somebody says, "We have got forty," another twenty branches. Our students say "My Guru Mahārāja has 102 branches." So they say, "No, we cannot compare with your Guru Mahārāja." So this is acintya-śakti. You can see so many things, the acintya-śakti is working. So unless we accept acintya-śakti of God, it is not possible to understand what is God. Inconceivable potency. And that is actually a fact. We want to bring God to our level, that's frog philosophy. Atlantic Ocean to the level of well. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. We have to understand that this whole universe... Just like Arjuna saw the virāḍ-rūpa, universal form. So this whole universe is the form of the Lord. So if in my body there are so many chemicals, enzymes, and other things, so how much there must be, proportionately? Suppose if we find some portion of chemicals in my body, you will find less in the ant's body. Or you will find more in the elephant's body.
Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore."
Prabhupāda: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān: (SB 7.6.1) "Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Because of sense gratification or mind...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence...,
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Blunt, intelligence becomes blunt.
Prabhupāda: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut.
Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age.
Karandhara: And again falls asleep at death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once he comes to awareness and again he's unconscious. Just like this flower, it has come to now consciousness. Again it will dry and die but the seeds again will grow. Again it will dry. This is material life. And spiritual life means flower only. That's all. (pause) I have got some nice shirt buttons somebody has given me. I shall never put on shirt, neither our students. I think we shall sell it.
Devotee: Buttons?
Prabhupāda: What is called? Button, is it not button? Shirt-fixing? Collar-fixing?
Devotee: Is it a pin or something like this?
Prabhupāda: Yes, like that...gold.
Devotee: Not cuff links. No those are...
Prabhupāda: Aha, cuffles.
Devotee: Oh, jaya. Do you like I buy from you?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Aha, cuffles.
Devotee: Oh, jaya. Do you like I buy from you?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: I give you my soul for the cuff links?
Prabhupāda: No, you take it and sell it. (pause) (break) The last four days this students are not clear.
Devotee: Man's best friend.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because he has no knowledge who is the best friend. According to the quality, friend is selected.
Karandhara: And one is known by the company he keeps.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The best friend will lead him to take birth in that family. He'll help him next birth because he'll always think of dog, so next birth, dog. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam (BG 8.6). At the time of death, if you are attached to something then you'll think of it, and next birth is that.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa. If he's acting in differently, he should be... (break) ...utilized by the liberated person, still we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine... The doors will be... Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that "You should give up these four principles, illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulations, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt. It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa. If he's acting in differently, he should be... (break) ...utilized by the liberated person, still we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine... The doors will be... Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that "You should give up these four principles, illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulations, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt. It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ.
- tṛṇād api sunīcena
- taror api sahiṣṇunā
- amāninā mānadena
- kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ
- (CC Adi 17.31)
So this is the only remedy, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you'll find all our students, they have got these beads. We have got these beads. Either we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa. That is also chanting. When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting. Kīrtana, kīrtana means kīrtayati, talking, speaking. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Parīkṣit Mahārāja: śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit. The item is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). About Viṣṇu, to hear and chant. So simply by hearing about Viṣṇu, Parīkṣit Mahārāja became liberated. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Vaiyāsaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect kīrtane, by kīrtana. But he... He was... He did not chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, but he recited Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So that is also kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said,
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
- kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann
- asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
- kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
- mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
- (SB 12.3.51)
They'll not take to it. So they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune, they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha... (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith.
Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means... Just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. "And always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). "He becomes free from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed-up in My service." So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex... If you can, if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya, little tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya, austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student, that "You have to follow this." And that's all.
Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are... By law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else.
Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything... "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done?
Prabhupāda: But it is compulsory? (laughter) They can come. It is not the question of surrender. (break)
David Lawrence: (reading from report) "...used to be involved heavily with that. The booklet itself is to be produced in color, black and white by means of one of the most modern printing systems in the world, and the colorplates should be of very good quality." You know, I was thinking about the beautiful pictures of the Bhagavad... (Break) ...really produce those. "It's hoped to market the thirty-page booklets for about thirty pence. The publisher, Marshall's Educational, is a long established publishing house which is Marshall, Morgan and Scott, specialized in theological and devotional books. They are now turning their attention to the production of much-needed religious education books. Financial basis of the series: David Lawrence has undertaken the commission with the agreement that they must be produced as cheaply as possible. The author receives no expenses and is receiving payment on the lowest rate of royalty only." So it means I've just about covered my expenses. "The purpose of the series of booklets: to offer the opportunity for students to see the spiritual way as relevant today, 2.) to show how God loves and how we should respond with devotion, 3.) to produce a booklet so cheaply that it will easily be available in schools and to any other interested inquirers, to the latter by means of national outlets such as W.H. Smith." They're an enormous chain of booksellers throughout the country. "4.) to allow each movement to speak for itself so that at every point the representatives will feel that they themselves are behind the booklet. This will give the youngsters full opportunity to make up their own minds as to the bona fide nature or not of a devotional organization." Your specific booklet. "An essential part of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness booklet and a revolutionary concept in religious education publishing will be the production of the teacher's pack. The aims of producing this pack are 1.) to arm the normally conservative R.E. teacher with such a battery of audio-visual aids that he will feel fully dressed to embark upon a series of lessons on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, 2.) to give the teacher..." (pause, people coming in or out of room)
Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.
Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.
David Lawrence: "2.) to give the teacher all the information," uh, where were we, "he or she may need to find out more than the booklet can include, for example, to satisfy the really interested inquirer, 3.) by a total sense experience, the cultural gap, which may unnecessarily alienate the students and therefore hamper a worthwhile consideration of the movement, 4.) by offering a wide variety of approaches, the student will not feel that he is simply studying another textbook, 5.) a booklet on Kṛṣṇa consciousness without the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra in a living form would be an absurdity, so the contents of the teacher's pack: A.) the forty-five r.p.m. record of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, B.) a glossy poster of Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, C.) a map of the devotional centers of Kṛṣṇa, D.) a list of additional films, filmstrips and records likely to help the student, both from the center and from elsewhere, E.) sample literature from the organization, e.g. Back to Godhead, F.) a pack of Spiritual Sky incense, G.) a filmstrip,"—the enclosure of the filmstrip depends on the costing; R.E. departments are always very poor in this country—"H.) recipes and notes on the meaning of ārati, I.) several sheets of objections to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the rebuttals of these objections, J.) suggestions for the teaching of the subject." Then I've gone on to say a little bit about the structure of the booklet. "Hopefully, the first section would establish the claims of the relevance of the spiritual life in 1973, and then the claims of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to be the true pathway to the eternal. This we would like to do by means of holding up a respected example of somebody who is already walking the path, e.g. an ideal way would be by the examination of the beliefs of George Harrison, and more especially of those expounded on living in the material world." Then go on to the history of the movement: "Lord Caitanya, Śrī Sarasvatī,..." apologies for the way I pronounce the names, "Śrī Prabhupāda's commission to the western world, the growth of ISKCON, the establishment of the London center," you know, to bring it locally, if you like, then on to "a typical devotee, his day..." This, I've said, will help to personalize the whole idea, you know. They can relate to the person concerned with this. Then "a section on the sacred scriptures of the Vedas, a background, and then quotations of frequently used texts. Then onto the beliefs of the devotees, based mainly upon the eight principles of ISKCON, and the Introduction of the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is." Our hopes are to, you know, work very hard from that section because it's, that introduction has got everything. I've been working on it a week, and I think, uh, I've gone back over...
Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā?
David Lawrence: Oh, yes. I've gone back over it about forty times now already. So I think I'm beginning to get hold of it. And then there would be lastly a reference section which would include all addresses that they would find useful, a glossary of the terms used, and an index, etc.
Prabhupāda: Very good. This...
David Lawrence: That...
Prabhupāda: ...synopsis is very nice.
David Lawrence: You like the idea, do you?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, very nice.
Prabhupāda: Tiffin hour.
Śyāmasundara: Tiffin hour. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: What is...
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Recess. When the teachers gone and students are free to move. So he was calling his class friends and other, and he was preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: Tiffin hour.
Prabhupāda: So... We call "tiffin hour" in India. Because we, we take some tiffin in the school, and we eat during that...
David Lawrence: Hm hm.
Prabhupāda: So he was preaching that kaumāra ācare... The other boys, they were insisting, "Prahlāda, why you are so much anxious about preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us play. It is our time to play." So "No, no." He said, "No, no. This is the time to learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Because you are teaching, therefore...
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...I am relating. "That kaumāra age, from five years to fifteen years, that is the right age for educating Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is the word of... kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma (SB 7.6.1). He says that "This human form of body is very rarely gotten, and it is a rare opportunity for awakening our Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, is there in every human being, especially in civilized... So it is not an artificial thing. Just like my, all my students, they are Europeans, Americans. Four or five years ago, they did not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, neither they knew the name of Kṛṣṇa. But now you can see how they're absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is not an artificial thing.
Prabhupāda: If it, had it been an artificial, they would not have been so serious, but it is a dormant consciousness. I have simply awakened. I have awakened. Otherwise... That is the statement in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Some way or other, it is now snuffed out. They have forgotten. But if an opportunity is given, then it can be awakened. So this movement is giving opportunity to arouse that dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness which is already there in everyone. So if you take that process and allow this Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the students, oh, it will be great service to the humanity. As a teacher, you will give the greatest service.
David Lawrence: Yes, I agree.
Prabhupāda: Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). And this is the only opportunity of awakening our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if we do not give that opportunity to the human beings from the childhood, it is a jealous... Jealousy means that you have got some opportunity, but if I do not allow you to take that opportunity, this is called jealous. So every human being has got the potency of awakening his God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in this human form of body. So if we do not give that opportunity, it is jealousy. Therefore students must be educated, and if you're writing such nice book, I think you will get, give a great service to your nation and to the human society in England. Because durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma, this human form of life... Unfortunately, people do not understand what is the distinction between this human form of life and animal form of life.
David Lawrence: They offer nothing, is it, in the material world.
Prabhupāda: So you give... Yes. That is the... The only difference is that in human form of life you can awaken your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the animal form... Here we are sitting with all human form of life, gentlemen, civilized men. I cannot call cats and dogs and sit here, and to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. Therefore this opportunity should be given. This opportunity should be given. And especially, you are English nation, recognized, great nation, respectful, you are respected... Especially in India, we have got very good respect for English nation. We had connection for so many years. And the politicians, they spoiled. Otherwise, the, I, we liked the British Empire, means unity of the human being all over the world. That can be revived again. That can be revived again. If you come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, your Queen comes to that,... There is process. There is process. You can revive your British Empire. It is not story. If you people take little advice from me, I can help you. Yes. You are intelligent nation. So kindly do this service to the students and awaken their dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be a great service. And we are meant for helping you all. So you can inquire. You are at liberty to come at any time and inquire.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Now, this spirit is eternal. That is the first understanding. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). This spirit is occupying a material body at the present moment. And the next, when this... Just like I am in this apartment. If I find some inconvenience, I go to another apartment. Or the lease is expired, I have to leave it. Some way or other, I change. Similarly, the... You can change your coat. So these are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). Ex..., very nicely exemplified. So we are changing this apartment or dress and accepting another. This is going on. This is the material world. But I, the spirit soul, eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Find out this verse. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Second Chapter. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you can introduce, study some Bhagavad-gītā among the students, oh, it will, it will be a great service.
David Lawrence: I think it would be a great deal more popular than studies of the Bible.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: Because there isn't the (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Now, there is psychology. There is philosophy.
David Lawrence: Yes, indeed.
Prabhupāda: Everything is there. And religion without philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. Two things must be combined.
David Lawrence: One other point, and again a practical point really, this one. This is about the nature of the book. I suggested early on that I hoped that I might get the cooperation of somebody like George Harrison. What would you think about this? Do you think, with your knowledge of the young mind, particularly the young western mind, that this might be a good means through to the young people...?
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of western mind, eastern mind. Any sincere student will take to.
David Lawrence: No, I was thinking in terms of the western mind with its culture, more than of philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Western mind... I, I do not find any difference between western mind and eastern mind. Because so many western mind is changed. Yes. So there was no difficulty. Two, two plus two equal to four is to be understood by the western mind and the eastern mind. You cannot say, because you are western mind, you'll say, "No, two plus two equal to five." You cannot say that. So there may be some influence of the culture, but that is superficial. When you speak the real truth, science, that is equally applicable to the western mind and eastern mind. There is no difference. If you speak the real truth... Two plus two equal to four, mathematical calculation, nobody will deny, either western mind or eastern mind. Yes. So he must be reasonable. That's all.
Prabhupāda: That is our qualification. Yes.
David Lawrence: Unfortunately, as we find, the youngsters that, certainly that I teach, have got such materialistic views of their...
Prabhupāda: If you keep the students as English boys or American boys, then it will be difficult. Then the, the cultural question will come up.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes. We try to bring in as much... In fact, now we have a new course... This is the sort of thing that's happening. (Break) ...the Jewish-Christian scriptures which do not, you know, just don't lend themselves in any way to the right sort of feelings being created and the right sort of experience being created. We found that this year's course-it's the first year-has been tremendously helpful. We brought the boys... I can't think anybody was here, but we brought the boys up to the London temple, and...
Prabhupāda: Here?
David Lawrence: Yes. Well, no, in the Bury Place. And they were thrilled to bits. We had one or two who made the usual silly comments, you know, which you'd expect. But they were embarrassed, you know. Everything that came over, which was interesting, was that they found that all the devotees were very kind, very loving and very sincere. This, this came from even really the most secular of boys with a very, very low intelligence. He could see and perceive and understand that this was how it was.
Prabhupāda: That is our general certificate, everywhere. Even the Americans, they are surprised. They inquire, "Are you Americans?" (laughter.)
Prabhupāda: She's also devotee.
David Lawrence: Pass that on, please, to George. He should be very excited, I think, about that. This is very good. I'd like to thank you very much for giving of your time.
Prabhupāda: You are welcome because you are sincere student searching after... I am prepared to help you any time.
David Lawrence: I do hope that anything I produce will...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: ..., you know, very adequately represent the movement. I'm going to give it to...
Prabhupāda: Your, these students, they'll be benefited if you...
David Lawrence: I think so.
Prabhupāda: They will benefit. Yes, actually.
David Lawrence: I hope so.
Prabhupāda: And it is the duty of the guardians to see that the children are actually spiritually benefited. There is a verse... Pitā na sa syāt gurur na sa syāt. You have got Bhāgavata?
Pradyumna: It's upstairs.
Prabhupāda: It is a soul-killing civilization. We have to fight against it, to save at least a few men. So you are thoughtful young man. You try to understand this philosophy, and you try to spread. You have got good field for teaching students.
David Lawrence: I feel that students need to be able to see that somebody who is God conscious can really, really enjoy life.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Certainly. That is life. This is not life. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Life means with high qualities. So one who is not God conscious, they cannot have any good qualities. It is not possible. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. He's simply hovering on the mental plane. Asati dhāvato bahiḥ. And he has to come to these non-permanent things, material things. Asati. Asati mā sad gama. The Vedic injunction is, "Don't stick to this asat. Try to come to the sat, eternal." Tamasi mā jyotir gama. These are the... "Don't remain in the darkness. Come to the light."
David Lawrence: That was one track on George's record which really, really got through to our boys, I think. "Light, is it? Light of the World."
Śyāmasundara: "Light, there is, Light of the World." (?)
David Lawrence: Really...
Prabhupāda: So his record has become very successful.
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. But general mass of people, at least, the so-called educated, five to ten percent people, they are lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And so-called educated, they practically guide. You'll be surprised to know that in 1950, one of my students, he was a government statistics officer. So he went to some village, and he gave me report that the villagers inquired from him that "Babuji, agar angarej ko vote diya yai pasatela (?)"
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? No.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, I don't. No, no, no.
Prabhupāda: No. The inquiry was that "If we again give votes to the Englishmen, will they come and do." (laughs)
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.
Prabhupāda: Karma, yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: ...one life to another.
Prabhupāda: Yes, transferred. Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is practical. If you become nice student...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Karma can be...
Prabhupāda: ...then, in future, you become a nice professor. But if you do not study nicely, how you can become a professor?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So karma you cannot deny.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, in this life, my karma... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. According to your karma and by the supervision of superior authority, you get a body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). The living entity gets a certain type of body according to the karma. And this is allotted by superior authority.
Prabhupāda: Berampur?
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I see.
Lord Brockway: My parents were missionaries there.
Prabhupāda: Hm. I was also a student of missionary college, Scottish Churches' College.
Lord Brockway: Oh yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We had very good professors. W. S. Urquhart, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was a Scotsman.
Lord Brockway: Yes, yes. Was that in Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Yes, in Calcutta. And Lord Rolandson, Zetland, Marquis of Zetland. He was governor of Bengal. So he's also a Scotsman.
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So he came to our college in our, when we were young men, second year student. All our professors, mostly they were Scotsmen, and there was one English professor, Mister Warren. All other professors, they were Scotsmen, Mr. Keye, Mr. Cameron, Mr. Scrimgeour in this way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we can simply study the beautiful flower, and we can come to God consciousness. How it is made, so beautiful, unless there is brain? And what is that brain? Then you come to God. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Para, the Supreme, has got so nice brain that things are happening as if natural. But no, the brain is acting, brain is acting. But His energy and brain is so nice that He hasn't got to do it personally. As soon as He desires, immediately the energy works. Just like nowadays electronic. So simply by pushing one bud, a button, thousands of business is done immediately. So if it is materially possible, just we have to think how much it is great and possible by spiritual energy. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. These are the Vedic description. God hasn't got to do anything with His hands. Just like here also. A big man, he has got secretaries, officers. He simply directs, "Do this," everything is done. Similarly, the Supreme Lord, how much energy He has got, and spiritual energy, that as soon as He desires something, immediately it is done. But it is done by employing energy. Not that it has come for nothing. No. This flower, it grows. There is energy. First of all, it was bud. But we cannot see how it is growing. But the act, action is going on. Therefore it is called svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. There is knowledge, there is brain, there is activity. Everything is there. But it is so quick and subtle, we cannot see. We say it is nat..., it has grown naturally. No. There is brain. How nicely it is done. Whatever color is suitable, it is there. So without color, without that brush, without that brain, without that energy, how it has come? How we can think of? Even if you make an artificial flower, oh, you have to take so many colors, you have to take brush, you have to apply your brain. So it has no brain behind? Simply explaining "nature." What is that nature? The nature is the brain of Kṛṣṇa. So those who can study, they can study even from this flower what is the greatness of God. This is God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything he sees the hand of God. That is God consciousness. And when a man becomes God conscious, then he's qualified with all good qualities. That is God consciousness. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If you train a person to become God conscious, then all the good qualities automatically becomes manifest in him. So why not try this? Make a school simply to make people God conscious. You'll find nice people are coming. All good character. And you can take any service from them, good service. This should be attempted. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). And without God consciousness, there cannot be any good qualities. Just like President Nixon. He's exalted. He is occupying such exalted position, but public is criticizing like anything. Hm? And he's still not leaving that post. Unless he's forced. So harāv abhaktasya... Is that a very good quality? He's publicly elected president. If public (is) accusing him in so many ways, he should have (said), "All right, if you don't like, I resign." But no. So where is the good quality? There is no good quality. Because he has no sense of God consciousness. So without sense of God consciousness, nobody can possess any good quality. That is impossible. And a small man, like our students, because he's God conscious, you'll find so many good qualities in them in comparison to others. So these are the version of the Vedas. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā. One who has become a devotee of the Supreme Lord, all the good qualities will be manifest in him. So we want good quality men. So the one process—to make him God conscious. He'll become the best person in the society. And if the society is composed of the nice person, then where is the war, where is the strife, where is the competition, where is the...? Nothing. Everything will be solved. So all the problems will be solved simply making the people God conscious. If not all, a section will do that. Sinless, God conscious persons, their examples will be followed, and society will change. Where is prasādam?
Prabhupāda: We are presenting...
Reporter: ...they understand the way of communication.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs)
Reporter: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.
Reporter: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is it.
Reporter: Right.
Woman: What about meditating?
Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation.
Woman: What about the other kind?
Prabhupāda: When meditation, meditation, dhyāna, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.
Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling.
Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating...
Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way.
Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world.
Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God.
Mother: I see he's happy. But, you know, he came from a very happy home. So he should be happy, shouldn't he?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
hy the university students becoming hippies?
Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must...
Prabhupāda: No...
Mother: But we must develop...
Prabhupāda: I think the college students university students, they're all hippies.
Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys...
Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there... In India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your western countries you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie?
Mother: Oh, but you... We're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you?
Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple, this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy.
Mother: I agree for some people to, you especially, to think of this because you are a leader of your Vedic religion. But for everybody to do that, where would we be? We couldn't all sit down and think all the time.
Prabhupāda: But where is that education?
Mother: But we... You can also work and think.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life?
Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in.
Jesuit Priest: All the Catholic Universities all over the world are doing it. That's our main purpose, is to teach the young man and the young girl the success in this world, but above all,...
Prabhupāda: Then the next question...
Jesuit Priest: ...is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And following Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and return to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced... I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that...
Prabhupāda: So...
Jesuit Priest: ...looked after me, I wouldn't be here this afternoon.
Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life?
Prabhupāda: We are treating them.
Revatīnandana: "...and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers.
Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business.
Mother: Well, my son is my business.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent.
Mother: Yes, but he was...
Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you.
Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university.
Prabhupāda: But... That's all right. If some of our student goes to the university... There are many students...
Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael.
Prabhupāda: We don't object to that.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are teaching Sanskrit.
Jesuit Priest: Pardon?
Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit to our students.
Jesuit Priest: Yes, but all I was saying was, isn't it difficult to get across at times what you can see the meaning in the Sanskrit, but you can't put it into acceptable English? You know what I mean. The idiom isn't the same.
Prabhupāda: We are giving every word, meaning. The book... Have you got any book? Bring it. You can see. Each and every word of Sanskrit we are giving meaning. Our mode of presentation is first of all we put the original Sanskrit language in devanāgarī character. Then we give English, Roman transliteration, pronouncing the same word by diacritic mark. Then each word is translated into English. Then we give translation, the whole. And then we give the purport. This is our way. So we are giving meaning of each and every word means we have got considerable knowledge of that word. Otherwise how we can give? Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...Sanskrit and English to translate the original Vedic lit..., is it not education?
Mother: Yes, I agree with you. That is education. But I mean a fuller education.
Prabhupāda: You are trying to induce our students to become technologists, medical men. You want that.
Mother: Yes, because the world must have them.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But our point is that if we can get the help of technologist by paying little money...
Mother: Well, you'd laugh if you were ill and there was no doctor, wouldn't you?
Prabhupāda: ...why should we waste our time?
Mother: If you had acute appendicitis, what would you do?
Devotee: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Mother: Well, you wouldn't. You'd die. I mean... You laugh when I say that. Somebody's got to be a doctor. You're being very childish. Father agrees. There must be doctors.
Revatīnandana: Well, it's good that... In the society we observe there are many, many people becoming doctors. But there are not very many people becoming brāhmaṇas, people who live a sinless life and who learn the science of God and distribute it to the people. There're not very many people...
Jesuit Priest: I think that... I think that... (?)
Revatīnandana: Not very many, not very many people are doing that.
Jesuit Priest: I don't know. I think that that's a gratuitous statement for which you can have no proof.
Revatīnandana: I'm just saying not many people are doing it. How many pe... How many people, compared to the number of medical students in England, how many people are students in religious seminaries?
Jesuit Priest: Well, do you know?
Revatīnandana: No, I'm asking you.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I do. I do. I do know it.
Revatīnandana: So give us a comparison.
Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I... We've no problem at all...
Prabhupāda: Now, another thing is...
Jesuit Priest: ...in finding plenty of young men to go along with the principles...
Revatīnandana: Neither have we. And you're teaching them to preach God consciousness.
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I am not spiritual chief. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual chief.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement.
Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force...
Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.
Reporter: I think, I think...
Prabhupāda: And if you want to know our socialistic idea, I can give you.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that?
Haṁsadūta: This is your visa. It's been extend...
Guru-gaurāṅga: I just came back from the airport, and they made it good.
Haṁsadūta: It's been extended up until the 16th.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda will be here till the 16th, so if you would like to come back, if you would like to bring some friends...
Dr. Inger: Yes, I would most certainly like to come back if I may. What is the best time?
Bhagavān: About three to four in the evening.
Prabhupāda: In the evening at four.
Haṁsadūta: Professor Hardin.
Bhagavān: When he said that: "Many times, my students ask me questions that I do not know. So I try to answer." But you said: "If you do not know, you should not teach." You said: "Our philosophy is that if you do not know, you should step down." He said: "I cannot do that."
Prabhupāda: He's getting salary, money. No sincerity.
Bhagavān: So actually a devotee has answer for every question.
Prabhupāda: That is devotee, who can answer any question. Everything is discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything, complete knowledge. Now in Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that this cosmic manifestation... Now you find out this verse: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Mayā. M-a-y-a.
Devotee: Still too loud.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: It's too loud downstairs. There have been complaints from the neighbors.
Prabhupāda: Loud, they are very good. How can you stop it? As soon as you chant, somebody... That you cannot check. You may stop mṛdaṅga. That's all.
Yogeśvara: Then God's creations are not...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that... Suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that: "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so-called independent, when he does not do, according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say everyone of my students that: "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. Their argument is... They will say that just the fact that the living entity has the independence and, and the possibility is there for him to make a mistake, they consider it to be a flaw.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: If it's better to be...
Haṁsadūta: But they consider it to be God's flaw.
Prabhupāda: No, why God's flaw.
Yogeśvara: Because He has given us the chance to fall down.
Prabhupāda: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.
Yogeśvara: (break) ...is studying the same thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the evolution, when our consciousness is in agreement with the supreme consciousness. (break) That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Yogeśvara: He says that the Rosicrucian order is a mystical and philosophical order that allows its students...
Prabhupāda: Who is Rosin? He is a philosopher?
Yogeśvara: He says that the term Rosicrucian means, it's an image of a cross with a rose in the center. It means that the disciple is aspiring towards the perfection of his consciousness and that this also means the perfection of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: So what is the ideal of that perfection of consciousness?
Yogeśvara: He says it is love.
Prabhupāda: Love, that's nice. Very good. So the supreme consciousness and our individual consciousness, when they are in exchange of love, that is perfection. Is that...?
Yogeśvara: (break) ...that this ultimate consciousness is one of union with the Absolute, that it is one of light, of samādhi, of total love. This is the highest.
Prabhupāda: So love, love. When we speak of love, there must be two persons. (Yogeśvara translates) So what is their philosophy?
Yogeśvara: The love of which they are speaking is a love that binds everything together, that bathes everything in light and love.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot love everyone and anyone or everything without finding out the original source of everything.
Yogeśvara: The Rosicrucian order is a school that teaches its students to progress step by step towards that ultimate source of all sources.
Prabhupāda: So what is that step? What is that step?
Yogeśvara: He says it's a gradual progress, that their students come, they receive initiation and then they are guided. They are given certain principles, certain practices, and then gradually, at their own rate, by their own powers, they ultimately arrive at perfection.
Prabhupāda: So what is that ideal of perfection?
Yogeśvara: That it is nirvāṇa, it is the kingdom of Lord Jesus Christ. He says it is the ultimate point for which all men are ultimately striving.
Prabhupāda: So what is that? Nirvāṇa means zero. Everyone is trying for the zero?
Yogeśvara: (break) Nirvāṇa means something different for them?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yogeśvara: (break) He says it is an entering into something that is alive and real.
Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa, this word is Sanskrit word. Nirvāṇa means finish.
Prabhupāda: So we are not asking in that way. We are asking, "What is that ultimate goal?" (break)
Yogeśvara: ...ultimately, by following a process that the Rosicrucian order gives its students, one reaches the goal.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Suppose if I am going to London. So unless I am interested to go to London, what is the use of knowing how to go to London?
Yogeśvara: Their students feel the need for this ultimate perfection and that's why they come to the movement.
Prabhupāda: But if he does not know what is ultimate perfection, this is bogus.
Yogeśvara: (break) ...realization of God.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Just like if I say that "If you do like this, you can make one million dollars." But you know what is the value of one millions dollars; then you endeavor. But if we don't know what is that one million dollars, why should we endeavor?
Yogeśvara: No, he said, all of their students, they know the value of realizing God in their heart.
Prabhupāda: How do they know? How do they know?
Yogeśvara: There are already people who are aspiring after a richer, more spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: But tell one of them.
Yogeśvara: The body for example. (break) He says that there is "the eternal meditation number three."
Prabhupāda: So what is the number one?
Yogeśvara: He says that this one is one that's basic. It is given to all their students.
Prabhupāda: Number three, and no number one. (break)
Guru-gaurāṅga: ...wants to say that you will meditate on the number three and this was that you would wake up the consciousness in your body starting from the tips of your toes and working up like this. And it may seem easy to you, but all the great masters of the Orient have taught this and no one can succeed without doing this.
Prabhupāda: That means their knowledge is not perfect. It is all bogus. (break) ...if you meditate on the body what do you gain?
Yogeśvara: To wake up your psychic consciousness which is sleeping inside this body.
Prabhupāda: But you tell me, what is that process?
Yogeśvara: Well, "meditation number three" is to... (break) He says he would like to talk to you a little bit about a book he is reading which describes how the Russians have just discovered the soul. They have photographed the soul, he says,...
French guest devotee: No, no, the aura.
Yogeśvara: ...how they have, the Russians have found the soul and they have described all the different phenomena of para-psychology and extra sensory perception, and he said it's an incredible book, and the Russians have made great discoveries. He hasn't finished the book yet.
Prabhupāda: That is Russians. I am asking him about his...
Yogeśvara: He says that the Rosicrucians they know what is the duty of human life.
Yogeśvara: An example is the master of their movement. He was supposed to come, but he was on vacation. But the grand master of their movement, he says, is one example.
Prabhupāda: No, suppose to love everyone, that means you love the animals also. Their community allows, animal killing?
Yogeśvara: When you come into the movement, there are no regulations required of you. But little by little, it comes to that point. Their experience is that they give their students in the movement... For a short period of time, they are required to give up intoxication and meat and things like that. But it's not permanent.
Prabhupāda: And then they can take.
Yogeśvara: Yes, afterwards.
Prabhupāda: So why in the beginning stop? Why in the beginning they are requested to give it up? (break)
Yogeśvara: Rosicrucian order doesn't force anything, doesn't make you do anything. (break) ...people that join this organization, only seven succeed.
Prabhupāda: Then it cannot be preached among the mass of people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is worldwide movement.
Professor: I cannot help you. That's, that's...
Prabhupāda: No, you can help us.
Professor: That's very strange.
Prabhupāda: Some of our students are trying to learn Sanskrit. You can help them.
Professor: Well, he knows very well Sanskrit. He pronounce it very well.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has learned out of his own accord, without taking help from anybody.
Professor: Really?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever little help I give, that's all.
Professor: He knows how to chant the Sanskrit...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Professor: ...verse.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Professor: So do you think it is possible, for instance, to have the husband being involved in this movement and not his wife?
Prabhupāda: No, wife also involved. Everyone is involved. The child is also involved. You'll find in our class a small child dancing to the tune. Yes. We have opened one school for children in Dallas. All the gṛhastha-bhaktas, those who have got children, we send there. Have you got pictures of Dallas? So there we have got very nice building, and, about, for the present, about near about hundred students. They're simply taught Sanskrit and English.
Professor: Nothing else.
Prabhupāda: Nothing else. Later on, little geometry, geography, mathematics. They're not meant for outside work. They're meant for as soon as they learn Sanskrit and English, they'll read these books.
Professor: I see. But to get the initiation, you have to be how many years old?
Prabhupāda: At least ten years.
Professor: Ten years.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years. That is the Vedic system. Twelve years old. He can be initiated.
David Lawrence: One of the very important enclosures which we mentioned when I came up last, for the teachers' pack this was, not for the actual booklet, was a series of questions, what we would call sticky ones in the West, but I'm sure you'll deal with them with very great ease. I've tried to produce what I thought would be objections to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not as such to theism, but more to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if I could, Mukunda has got them in fact, there's about eight or nine. And if you could be pleased to perhaps answer them on tape, and I can have them transposed. We're going to produce this in the teachers' pack six or seven sheets of cyclo-styled notes for the teachers. So they'll be able to meet the objections perhaps, of their students. Some of the intelligent students may make points which clearly can be met.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: But we can meet them, in a sense, before they're even asked.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: That makes it even more impressive.
Prabhupāda: In which point the students may possibly object?
David Lawrence: Well I've mentioned a few points on which... You know, obviously, I've studied a bit more deeply than the average student, because of the university and all this sort of business, which gives a particular form of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
David Lawrence: Once again, many thanks for your tremendous cooperation and as I say I hope it won't put you to too much work. Obviously some of these things have already been met. To a certain extent we've done some of the work already, haven't we?
Prabhupāda: Some of our students may read. If it is presented, if it is misrepresented then it is useless to publish.
David Lawrence: I don't want that to happen, you see. This is why I'm so anxious that at every stage it be seen.
Prabhupāda: So you read it and find out.
David Lawrence: Will you?
Śyāmasundara: Sure, sure, sure.
David Lawrence: That will be... I've said to the publishers, as far as I'm concerned, they've given me a date at the end of September, but I've said if the people in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement do not accept what I've put forward as a representative view of their own, then the date's going to go back. I've said that. So that's an accepted idea.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Śyāmasundara: ...he's very happy and he's going to, for vacation for one month in September so that he can read and chant for one month undisturbed. He's reading now Kṛṣṇa Book daily.
Prabhupāda: He should, one day should have come here see the Deity.
Guest: Yes. And how do you know whether you're using it for Kṛṣṇa or not?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires training from the Kṛṣṇa's representative, guru. Just like these boys are being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it requires little training. Just like you are mathematician. To make another student mathematician, you have to train him. You have to teach him how to calculate two plus two equal to four. It will never be five. If somebody says, "No, my calculation is two plus two equal to five." Will it be accepted?
Guest: I'm afraid sometimes it can be true. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: How it can be true?
Guest: One plus one can equal three.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: One plus one can equal three sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Is there mathematical calculation?
Guest: I know that it's ah... I mean things reproduce. Life is not so fixed, not so rigid. But one does have to be trained, it's true. Training is, some people can understand and some people cannot understand.
Prabhupāda: That is difference of understanding.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that these universities, educational institution, all over the world, they are simply concerned with this body. According to our Vedic culture, to remain satisfied with the bodily necessities of life is the business of animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).
- yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
These are animal conceptions. So anyone who is accepting this body as the self, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ. Go means cows and kharaḥ means asses. So this civilization based on the bodily necessities of life is animal civilization. Because we are not this body, we are spirit soul, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: dehino 'smin dehe. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The soul is within the body and it is transmigrating from one type of body to another. Even in this life. Just like I was in the baby's body, I was in a child's body, I was in a boy's body. Those bodies are gone. But I remember that I was in such and such bodies. But I am now in a different body. Therefore, although my bodies have changed so many times, I am cognizant, I know that I had such and such body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. To transmigrate from one body to another. This is the authoritative statement of Bhagavad-gītā. There are so many serious students of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, his photographs were always with the Bhagavad-gītā, standing. But he was not a leader of understanding what is soul. He was simply concerned with the body. This nationalism is concerning this body. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, ijya, ijya means worshipable. On account of this bodily concept of life they have taken that this earth or the place where the body is born, that has become worshipable. That is nationalism. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. And from my body there is relationship with my wife, with my children, therefore they are my own men. There are hundreds and thousands of women, but one woman who has got bodily connection, she's my wife. I have to do so many things for her. Similarly children, the bodily connection. The whole material civilization, nationalism, socialism, this ism, that ism, everything based on this bodily concept of life. But one who is in bodily concept of life, he is no better than cows and asses.
Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gītā was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. What do you think, Bhadra Kṛṣṇa? The dehāntara-prāptiḥ, do they understand?
Bhadra Kṛṣṇa: It's not something known.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not understand.
Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious... I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something... Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is...
Prabhupāda: No. That is... Just like you have got the Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, common share, or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors? Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector. They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely. But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government's duty.
Prabhupāda: And we have given each meaning of... You can see the Sanskrit verse, how we have explained. Here and in America especially, as soon as they see, they purchase the whole set. Six copies. See.
Ambassador: Beautiful. Very, very elegant English also. (Reads Sanskrit verse:) Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ. And then you, you make it easy. Actually, it's...
Prabhupāda: Transliteration also.
Ambassador: ...It's for students also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration.
Ambassador: Yes. Transliteration and then (Sanskrit) and then...
Prabhupāda: Translation.
Ambassador: Viccheda. How long will Your Divine Grace be here?
Prabhupāda: Four days?
Haṁsadūta: It's on the 11th. Eleventh morning we're leaving, back to London.
Ambassador: Back to London. And you'll be visiting only Sweden this time?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Cheating others.
Haṁsadūta: ...cheating others.
Prabhupāda: But that is going on. Recently it happened in Los Angeles, one big professor came to lecture there, and he has got Nobel Prize. I forgot his name. He has written one book, Chemical Evolution. So he was speaking on that Chemical Evolution, and his theory is life begins from four chemicals. So he gave lectures. After that, there is one student. He's also Doctor in Chemistry. He's my disciple. So he asked that professor that: "If I give you the chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He replied: "That I cannot say." He says that life begins from these four chemicals. And he lectured hours. And when he was asked: "Suppose I give you these four chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He answered, "That I cannot say." Just see. Is it not cheating? He's, he's saying that life is produced from these chemicals.
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And when he's offered these chemicals, he's not certain whether he'll be able to produce life. Is it not cheating?
Dr. Hauser: Yes, he's jumping to conclusions, one can say.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Dr. Hauser: He's jumping to conclusions.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, he's not certain about producing life from those chemicals. But still he's lecturing. Is it not cheating?
Dr. Hauser: Not cheating, no...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. Because he cannot produce life. Actually, he cannot, but he's lecturing on this basis.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhāgavata verse, janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1), asya janmādi (indistinct) concise word but volumes of meanings. Volumes. Each word is like that. Vidyā bhāgavata-vali(?). Therefore one's learning is complete when he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Otherwise he remains imperfect, in spite of all learning. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from where? Now the creation of this cosmic world, from where? But you do not know from where. This is explained in Bhāgavatam. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. That is actually true. In this way simply if you analyze one verse, you'll find each word is full of volumes of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayāt (SB 1.1.1). Like the creation, anvayāt, directly and indirectly, itarataś cārtheṣu, in the matter of understanding, abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means completely cognizant. That is the Absolute Truth. He knows everything—how this universe is created, how it is maintained, how it annihilated, directly and indirectly. Just like, I always, regular, everyday thing, when I am massaged by my student, I see so many veins so I think that I claim, "This is my leg," but I do not know what are these veins. Directly I know this is my leg, but indirectly I do not know how this leg is working with these veins and nerves and muscles. I do not know. But so far God is concerned, He has created. He knows every veins and everything. That is called abhijñaḥ. In this way you analyze every word, you'll find volumes of meaning. The next question, "Where you got this experience?" You say He's abhijñaḥ, He knows everything. To get experience one must have teacher. But the next word is svarāṭ, He's experienced and self-sufficiency, svarāṭ, independent. He hasn't got to go anywhere for experiencing. In this way each word is full of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ, tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). We have very shortly described this one verse. I think five, six pages. You've got that verse?
Śrutakīrti: Yes. Right here. (showing book to the psychiatrist) Here's the translation, the verse.
Prabhupāda: That is very short description.
Prabhupāda: We have begun teaching, but I do not know when it will become a university. That is a big job.
Prof. Gombrich: I see, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Gombrich: Who is teaching there?
Prabhupāda: Our students. We have got these books. That's all.
Prof. Gombrich: You don't have the Bengali paṇḍitas teaching Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: At least, at the present moment, we haven't got. They're... Generally, in India, they want to learn English. So, as soon as they learn English, they can read our books. And Sanskrit is also... You have seen? We have given each word meaning, Sanskrit. The pronunciation. Oh yes. Here is the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Prof. Gombrich: So in Navadvīpa, will the instruction be in English or in Bengali?
Prabhupāda: These boys, they do not know Bengali.
Prof. Gombrich: Oh, I see. So it's literally for English-speaking devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not English-speaking. They are Bengalis, the students. But they want to learn English. Therefore we are teaching English.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prof. Gombrich: My speciality is Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Buddhism.
Prof. Gombrich: Yes.
Prabhupāda: A religious student. A specialist in religious, comparative study of religion?
Prof. Gombrich: Well, not so much comparative. I main, I really teach Buddhism itself.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prof. Gombrich: Through Sanskrit and Pali.
Prabhupāda: Pali, yes. Pali is almost Sanskrit language.
Prof. Gombrich: It's not so different, yes. Derived from Sanskrit. And at Vṛndāvana you studied at a later time, then, did you?
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, I studied the Vedic literature, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, as I mentioned so many, Upaniṣads, Vedānta-sūtra.
Prof. Gombrich: Then that was after the university?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that was after my retirement.
Prof. Gombrich: I see.
Prabhupāda: But in student life I had knowledge in Sanskrit, and that was utilized later on.
Prof. Gombrich: No, I haven't, I'm afraid. No. And do you think that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is very different from the message of realizing God which is promulgated in other religions, for instance the Śaiva religion or...?
Prabhupāda: No I don't think so. Any religion, you follow nicely. Just Christian religion, there is God consciousness. So actually it is not this religion or that religion. People have given up religion. All over the world they have no more interest in religion. And especially I see that in your London that so many churches are vacant. Nobody's going there. So thing is that there is no more regular teaching of religious system. It has become a profession like. Neither the teachers are serious, nor the students are serious. So our principle is that not this religion or that religion. Whichever religion you may like, you can follow, but we want to see whether you are God conscious. If you are not God conscious, then we take it simply useless waste of time, these so-called religions. Śrama eva hi kevalam. You understand Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: They're servants of Kṛṣṇa. They are serving on behalf of Kṛṣṇa among certain people who cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like a student in the primary class, he does not know what is M.A. examination. Therefore teacher is teaching according to his position. But he's a teacher, he's an authorized teacher, appointed by the school, authority.
Guest (2): So they're representatives?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they're... Just like Lord Buddha. We accept him as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But he preached, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no God. I don't care for the Vedas."
Guest (2): He's flaunting the authority of...
Prabhupāda: No, he is authority himself. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He's personally Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): Does he say so, or you...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sometimes he has to say so.
Guest (2): And he's allowed to say so.
Prabhupāda: That is... Just like...
Guest (2): Is he allowed to say so?
Prabhupāda: No, no. He is the Supreme, He can say. Just like a father cheats sometimes the son. The son has taken from the pocket of the father one hundred rupees' note. He's not separate. The father takes one lozenges, two paise worth. "Oh, my dear son, you can take it, very nice. You give me that." "Ah yes." It is not cheating? He's giving two paise worth lozenges, and taking hundred rupees' note. Is it not cheating? This is cheating. But father is cheating; therefore it is good. You cannot imitate father and cheat others. Father can do anything for the welfare of the son. That is another thing. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa appears as a cheater, the atheist class of men and Lord Buddha say, "No, no, there is no God. Yes, it is all right. You are right. But you hear me." "Yes, sir, we shall hear you." But he's God. This is cheating.
Prabhupāda: There are two things. One material, one spiritual. Spiritually, India is happy, those who are actually spiritualists. But materially, India is unhappy. Spiritually, even if you still go in the interior of village, poor man, living in a cottage, he is taking bath three times and doing his professional work, a cultivator, having little food, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are happy actually. They have got their family, husband, wife, some children. If one lives spiritual life, he is actually happy. Materially, nobody can be happy. In your country, although there is enough facility for material enjoyment, actually they are not happy. Otherwise why in your country the hippies are coming out? They are coming from respectable, rich parents, nation, but they have given up their home, their father's opulence, mother's opulence. That I have seen practically. Practically all my students... Here, Brahmānanda, his father, at least he was a big industrialist, mother. But he did not like. He joined this movement. Similarly, Girirāja, his father is a big lawyer, rich man. But he did not like that. There are many, many students, their father's are... Śyāmasundara's father is big lawyer, rich man, businessman. He is the only son. But he did not like his father. So there are many... Even though he is not our student, still, I do not know. I have seen in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills. You know? That is a rich quarter. Very nice house. And one boy is coming, he is hippie, and riding on his car and going. Then I saw, although it is such a nice rich quarter, there are also hippies. That I could study. Why these boys are becoming hippies? And New York you know, the hippies are lying here and there in Fifth Avenue, Central Park, and they are worshiping pig. (laughs) You know that?
Banker: Yes, I know.
Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university.
Prabhupāda: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy?
Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic.
Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.
Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.
Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brāhmaṇa, fortunately, then you become brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not śāstra. That is a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brāhmaṇa family, if his father is actually brāhmaṇa, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, ārjavam (BG 18.42), this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brāhmaṇa, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the śūdra quality, then he must be accepted as śūdra, not as a brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Brahmānanda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa means quality, karma means the work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brāhmaṇa. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brāhmaṇa. He is pulling on ṭhelā, no brāhmaṇa quality, neither work is brāhmaṇa, but still, he is paṇḍitjī. I have seen it in Calcutta. One man was pulling on ṭhelā with great difficulty, and another man is offering respect, "Paṇḍitjī, namaskāra." And he was... (Hindi) He was pulling ṭhelā. I have seen it. I have seen it in the street. You see. He is still thinking that "I am brāhmaṇa." He is working like an ass. He has no qualification. Neither he is qualified. Still, he is thinking that he is brāhmaṇa. Is it not? Yes. That is the cause of India's falldown. You work... These things should be... I am accepting somebody as brāhmaṇa; then I must see that he has the quality of brāhmaṇa, that is there, satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, and he is working as a brāhmaṇa. When this was not examined, checked, anyone born in a brāhmaṇa family became a brāhmaṇa, the whole thing topsy-turvied. Just like my student here. He belongs to the kṣatriya family. But he is not in the fighting, military plan. So he is not kṣatriya. But he is now more than kṣatriya. He is worshiping God. Therefore he is brāhmaṇa. He is neither kṣatriya nor śūdra. He is brāhmaṇa. His hereditary title is kṣatriya, Kṣanna. Kṣat na, kṣat na. He cannot tolerate injury to others. That is kṣanna. Is it not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Russian Revolution.
Prabhupāda: Seventy. Seventy. Yes, no, we were student at that time. So what they have done? They are changing, changing, changing. And I went to Moscow, I saw the people were not happy. There are so many things that is against one's psychological understanding. So many things. Therefore now they are going to hold some peace conference. Who told me? Oh, yes, Haṁsadūta. So without God consciousness, there cannot be any peace. That's a fact. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is there. Tomorrow, when you are going?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Me? Tomorrow night. I'll come here tomorrow also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I will give you some letters for Bali Mardana.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali Mardana? (break)
Brahmānanda: At MIT. At other colleges I was present.
Prabhupāda: So that very time so I first of all asked the students, "Where is your technological department to find out the thing when a man is dead, and you replace it?" These were my subject matter. I talked. A man is working. (Aside:) come on. A man is working. All of a sudden he stops to work. So a motor car is working. All of a sudden it stops. So there are technologists who can repair the car and it will again start. That is technology. Now the man is working, stopped. So where is that technology to make it move again. That was... I spoke on this. So they very much appreciated. After my lecture they gathered round me. You remember that? No.
Gargamuni: I wasn't there.
Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to understand the value of life. The modern system of education and civilization is so degraded that people have forgotten the value of life. Generally, in this material world everyone is forgetful of the value of life, but the human form of life is a chance to awaken the importance of life. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long one is not awakened to the consciousness of self-realization, the foolish living entity, whatever he is doing is defeat for him. This defeat is going on in the lower species of life because they cannot understand what is the value of life. Their consciousness is not advanced. But even in the human form of life, the same defeat prolongs, that is not very good civilization. That is almost animal civilization. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānyā etat paśubhir narāṇām. If people are simply engaged in the four principles of bodily demands-eating, sleeping, mating and defending—that is visible in animal life also, so that is not very advancement of civilization. So our attempt Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to come to the responsibility of human life. This is our Vedic civilization. The problem of life is not the difficulties for a few years of this duration of life. The real problem of life is how to solve the repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). People are embarrassed with so many problems of life, but the real problem of life is how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. So people are callous. They have become so dull-headed that they do not understand the problem of life. Long, long ago when Viśvāmitra Muni saw Mahārāja Daśaratha, so Mahārāja Daśaratha inquired from the Viśvāmitra Muni, aihistaṁ yat taṁ punar janma jayaya (?): "My dear sir, the attempt that you are trying to conquer over death, how that business is going on nicely? Is there any interruption?" So this is our Vedic civilization, how to conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. But at the modern time there is no such information, neither anybody is interested. Even big, big professors, they do not know what is there after life. They do not believe even that there is life after death. So this is a blind civilization going on. We are trying our bit to educate them that the aim of life, especially in the human form of life, is different from the bodily necessities of life: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of many millions of persons, one may attempt to become successful in his life." Siddhaye, siddhi. This is siddhi, how to conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. And manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. The modern civilized man is so dull, he does not know what is siddhi. They think that "If I get some money and one bungalow and one car, that is siddhi." That is not siddhi. You can get a few years a very nice bungalow, a car, nice family. But any moment this arrangement will be finished and you have to accept another body. That you do not know. And neither they do care to know it. So they have become so dull-headed, although they are very much proud of education, advancement of civilization. But we are protesting. We are protesting. I am not protesting. Kṛṣṇa is protesting.
- na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
- prapadyante narādhamāḥ
- māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
- āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
- (BG 7.15)
These rascals, lowest of the mankind and always engaged in sinful activities, such persons do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "No. There are so many educated MA, PhD's." Kṛṣṇa says, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. "Apparently they are very educated, but their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. This atheistic civilization is very dangerous. People are suffering for this reason. But they are not very serious. Therefore they have been addressed by Kṛṣṇa as mūḍhāḥ, rascals. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. So we are trying a little bit to make these mūḍhas, mūḍha civilization, to come into light of spiritual life. That is our humble attempt. But it is already said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: (BG 7.3) "Out of many millions of persons, they can take to it." Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. But that does not mean we shall stop. Just like in our school, college days, Sir Asutosh Mukherjee started some higher study, post-graduate study classes in the university. The student was one or two, but still, the class was maintained at the cost of many thousands of rupees, not considering that there are only one student or two students. Similarly this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must go on. It doesn't matter, the foolish people, they do not understand it or do not come to it. We have to make our propaganda. Thank you very much. Any question, we can answer. Is there any press representative here? No. No.
Prabhupāda: This reply we give to the Māyāvādīs. So we speak to the Māyāvādī guru, that "Whether you are in māyā? Because everything is māyā, so whether you are also in māyā?" So if he says, "Yes," then how he can become guru?
Karandhara: Professor Bharati said that. And when the students asked him, "Isn't everything in this world illusion?", he said, "Yes, everything is illusion, but I like it very much."
Prabhupāda: He likes it very much.
Karandhara: That's what he said.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is a rascal. That proves that he is a rascal.
Hṛdayānanda: After that debate, many, many people have bought Bhagavad-gītās.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is good triumph. Yes. (begins chanting japa) (break) ...ponds like this, we remember immediately Bengal. Yes. In Bengal there are many, many ponds. (pause) What is called, this playing? What is this? Golf?
Hṛdayānanda: Golf course.
Prabhupāda: They are coming for playing golfs?
Karandhara: Yes, as soon as it's light, they'll be playing. They work hard all week so that they can play golf on Sunday.
Hṛdayānanda: They think that a gentleman should play golf.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fashion of the society.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that is their cheating. Find out now, and I accept that they're scientists. Yes. Cash money, sir. Then I shall know that you are rich man. You want to cheat me with the paper?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they'll say that "We are doing research."
Prabhupāda: That means that... Then don't talk that you are scientists. You are student. You are trying to learn. You're student. You cannot say that you are scientists.
Hṛdayānanda: So regardless of our position, they are not qualified.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Their system is to remain a student and pose as teacher, their system. They're trying to learn it, and still they're posing as teacher. Teacher means one who knows. He does not know; still he poses in the post of a teacher.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they're more interested in seeing the molecules than in taking prasādam.
Prabhupāda: No...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is their (indistinct).
Devotee (2): So we have to trick them to take prasādam.
Prabhupāda: They will (indistinct) as students not to see molecules, but to see how palatable dishes are there. (laughter)
Devotee: Yeah, they will forget it.
Prabhupāda: At that time they forget their laboratory.
Yaśomatīnandana: You forgot your laboratory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Govinda Khorana, he got Nobel Prize about two years ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So whenever he works, he never cares about anything, but he carries his only piece of paper and pen so that he can write molecules. So his consciousness is only on molecules, and he is very happy.
Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is māyā. That is māyā. Even the pig is happy eating stool. That is māyā. Āvaraṇātmika-śakti (?). Covering energy of māyā. Unless he's covered, he cannot eat and enjoy.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are all guided by māyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Prakṛti is conducting everything, as you are associating with qualities of prakṛti. That I have already explained.
Devotees: Jaya! All glories to... (end)
Prabhupāda: Why "Should have created"? He has created already perfect. Because you are perfect, therefore you have got the independence to misuse. You are not a dead stone. That is perfection. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). You can go anywhere, sarva-ga. You can go to the Vaikuṇṭha. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planets. You can go to the hell. When you go to the hell, it is your choice. God has given you all perfection. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation), everything is complete, perfect, and because you are perfect, you have got the independence. But misusing that independence, you are imperfect. Again, reviving your independence, you can become perfect, although you are imperfect now. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means raising the imperfect to the perfect platform. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other fools, they say, "We are perfect now." In a fallen condition also, they're thinking perfect. That is māyā. Āsurīṁ rākṣasīṁ caiva mohinīṁ prakṛtiṁ śritāḥ. Kṛṣṇa has made you perfect. There is no doubt about it. Just like some of our students. All of a sudden, they deviate, go away. So what is that? Our movement is imperfect, or he's imperfect?
Hṛdayānanda: He's imperfect.
Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.
Prabhupāda: They can call anything. Just like... Just like...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's now taught almost over all of the universities now here.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have...
Hṛdayānanda: But the, but the sincere people don't believe it. When we go to the colleges, many students come to us and say, "These people are cheating us." They know it.
Karandhara: They don't even talk about God, transcendental meditation.
Satsvarūpa: Creative Intelligence.
Bali Mardana: Psychological.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students know they're cheaters.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it has been accepted all over the country.
Hṛdayānanda: Not by the intelligent.
Bali Mardana: They're tricking the government.
Prabhupāda: Not... I don't accept. We don't accept. Why do they say "all over the country"?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges.
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges.
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have departments.
Prabhupāda: They why they are complaining?
Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students all criticize it. Many, many people criticize it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a big pamphlet.
Bali Mardana: They've made...
Prabhupāda: What is that meditation?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes... (indistinct) ...I think. You have to pay some money for that.
Hṛdayānanda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money.
Bali Mardana: But they don't, they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: They why "Transcendental"?
Bali Mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have so many scientific tests like blood tests, the blood, circulation of the blood is improved, the mental condition is improved.
Prabhupāda: That is all material. That has nothing to do with spiritual. Blood is not spiritual. It is material.
Hṛdayānanda: Really? No, the intelligent students all know it's cheating.
Umāpati: They say that's an easy way.
Karandhara: Why not take the easy way?
Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "transcendental meditation," but it is not actually transcendental.
Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the...
Prabhupāda: Bring any student of transcendental meditation and talk with our student. He'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test.
Hṛdayānanda: You're right, Prabhupāda. They're cheaters. I talked to one of their leaders at a college, and I, I defeated all their points. Then they simply became embarrassed and said, "Well, I don't want to talk any more." And they went away.
Prabhupāda: That's good. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is process.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among those students, thousands of students, there are only very few who come out very good in society...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not everybody.
Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, that is already spoken. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā; at the same time, He says,
- manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
- kaścid yatati siddhaye
- yatatām api siddhānāṁ
- kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
- (BG 7.3)
"Out of many million of persons are trying to be perfect, and out of many millions of perfect, one can hardly understand Me." Then why He is speaking Bhagavad-gītā? Actually the formula is impossible. Nobody is trying for becoming perfect, and there is no perfect; then who will understand? And still, He is speaking. Still Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming. So our endeavor should be there. Our endeavor should be. If one man can take it up, then there will be immense good for the human so... Therefore I say this is the only humanitarian work. This is the only humanitarian... All others, bogus. They cannot become success. They are opening hospitals, but there are many millions of persons there without any hos..., and even if you give good medicine, good hospital, is that guarantee?
Prajāpati: There is no trust without obedience.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. There is no... There is no question of trust. Yes. That is, that is the first requirement in the Bhagavad-gītā. "You surrender unto Me." That means: "You trust." I cannot surrender unto you if I do not trust you. That is trust. I don't believe you; how can I trust you? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is full trust. "Yes, I must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. He, He..." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings,
- mānasa deha geha jo kichu mora
- arpilūṅ tuwā pade nanda-kiśora
Nanda-kiśora, Kṛṣṇa, now I fully surrender unto You. And what I have got? I have got my mind, I have got my body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender unto You. Deha, geha everything." This is our possession. Otherwise... I cannot say, "I possess this universe." But I can say, "I possess this body. I have got some mind. And I have got some little family. So everything I surrender unto You." Mānasa deha geha jo kichu..., arpilūṅ tuwā pade nanda-kiśora. Now what kind of surrender? Mārobi rākhobi, jo icchā tohārā. "Now I have surrendered. If you want, you can kill me. And if You want, You can keep me." This is surrender. This is trust. "If You like, you can kill me. And if You like, you can save me." Jo icchā tohārā. "That depends on Your free will because You are completely independent." This is surrender. This is trust. Then activities begins. Then he will act according to the order of Kṛṣṇa. When he has surrendered, he'll do as Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Just like our students are doing. They have surrendered unto me. I am dictating, "You do this. You worship like this." They are doing. This is surrender. They are doing. "You chant like this You live like this. You worship like this." This is surrender. So, without any consideration, whether this chanting... Of course, there must be consideration. Otherwise, how they are doing? But this obedience is there. That is called surrender. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. Where to go?
Devotee: This way.
Prabhupāda: I say that they are not Christian. They're all atheists. Christians, one who is actually Christian, he's good. But they are not Christians. They do not believe in Christ. Neither in his words. So what kind of Christian they are?
Hṛdayānanda: They're such rascals that some of the young student so-called Christians, they even preach that.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, any Hindus, so-called Hindu, if he does not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, what kind of Hindu he is? He's a rascal. He's a rascal.
Prajāpati: In days gone by, there were pious Christians who tried to follow in the footsteps of saintly persons, but there are no more...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Christians must be always pious.
Prajāpati: There are no more...
Prabhupāda: There cannot be impious Christian or pious Christian. Christian must be pious. If somebody's impious, then he's not Christian. (break) ...impious thief cannot be. Thief is always impious. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (break)
Prajāpati: ...trusting in God. And then, when they realize they are not, then we can show them how to trust in God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "You do not know. You come to us and learn how to trust, how to know. And if you speak lies that you do not know what is God that is a different thing. Then you should be punished." People should be given chance of believing, trusting in God. They have declared. So it is their duty. The state duty is to see how people are trusting. That is state's duty. Constitution says that nobody can steal. Is it not state's duty that people are not becoming thieves and stealing? Is it not the duty of the state? Similarly, if you, if you have accepted this that "In God we trust," you must see that everyone trusts in God. And that is scientifically. Not sentimentally. It is the duty of the state to see.
Prajāpati: In some Western theological literature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it refers to that "God is love." In what sense...
Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained. What is not God? That is already explained. Anything you bring, He is, God is there. Without God, nothing can exist. So why this or that? Anything, that is God. But He's absolute. His love and His enmity, that is the same thing. We distinguish, here in this material world, "This is love and this is animosity." But God's animosity and God's love—the same thing. That is acintya. Here in the relative world we cannot adjust how animosity and love can be the same, one and the same. That is acintya, inconceivable by us. But God's love... Just like God's love for the gopīs and God's enmity for Kaṁsa, they're reaching the same result. Both of them are going to the spiritual world. Just like Pūtanā and Mother Yaśodā. Pūtanā came to poison Kṛṣṇa, and Mother Yaśodā is always anxious to save Kṛṣṇa, naughty child. He may not be hurt. So two opposite things. But both of them got the same result. Kṛṣṇa thought that "I have sucked her breast, so she is My mother. She must go to the same destination as Yaśodā Mā." Just see. That is His enmity. And that is absolute. In our relative world, we can see so many differences in the dealings of God, but He is absolute, one. That is conception of God. Advaita. Advaita. Advaita means absolute. And... Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Again advayam. You may conceive God as impersonal or localized Paramātmā or Bhagavān—the same thing. But due to our, I mean to say, meager knowledge, we are thinking, somebody's thinking that His personality is greater than impersonality and somebody's thinking impersonality's greater than personality. This is our conception. He's the same. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Not different. Not different. But one who has reached to the conception of personality, he has got all the others. That is the difference. So you write. You are theologician. You write about God so that people may understand how our students are enlightened. Other so-called foolish theologicians may learn from you. You take the ideas and explain.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they...
Govardhana: ...position, if they are not able to stick to it?
Prabhupāda: Just like a disease. Somebody cures very quickly, somebody cures, takes some time, according to the, what is called, acuteness of the disease. Somebody dies, somebody falls down. It is a treatment. Just like some of our students in Hawaii, due to bad association, they've fallen down. But whatever sincere service one has given, that will never be lost. That's a fact. It will again revive. For the time being, as it is said by Arjuna, kala-karma-tamoruddham. (?) Just like the sky is clear. It may be covered immediately by some cloud. And again the cloud is removed, the sky is clear. So this māyā is just like cloud. It comes where the temperature is very high, the cloud does not come. All depends on the circumstances.
Sudāmā: Now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa has sent you here to teach us this art of surrendering.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Sudāmā: Now you have told us to first of all surrender. So as your students, we are trying to hear in that way. Now when we go and preach and we tell, if we tell a man, "First of all, you surrender before you'll be able to understand," then what, what question is there of preaching?
Prabhupāda: They have already surrendered. They have already surrendered. When they have come to hear you, that is a symptom of surrender. Otherwise, why does he waste his time? There is, little bit, surrender. Full surrender and partial surrender. When one agrees to hear you, that is partial surrender.
Prajāpati: They're giving prize to the number one speculator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Jugglery of words. That's all. Speculation means jugglery of words. Just like doctors prescribe. They give the medicine, and then water mixed. So they will never say "water" because ordinary people will understand. They'll write "aqua distillata." So ordinary man cannot understand whether it is water or medicine. But that is water. But they'll... So these scientists, they'll manufacture some word which you cannot understand... "Vyāghra mane śārdūla." One student asked the teacher, "What is the meaning of 'vyāghra' ?" He said, "Śārdūla." It is still difficult. You see ? This is going on.
Prajāpati: Most theologians, they write like that, also, Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their business. Because they want to cheat people, they'll manufacture some words which they cannot understand, and they'll be: "Oh, very nice. How nice word it is."
Hṛdayānanda: They became disgusted with the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. It's simply, we can say, what is called? Stereotype, the church. Just like you said they want more pay. Payment... They have no knowledge, so what is the use of taking advice from such rascals? What is the use? But here it is not like that. We know the science of God. We know who is God. It is not a vague thing. Now you try to understand. Let there be educational institution. America has got so many universities. Let there be a department. There is already a religious department. So let the students learn the science of God. We have got so many books. Why they will not? They are actually appreciating. So this should be introduced in the university, in colleges, in schools. Why they should neglect such a, such an important scientific knowledge?
Devotee (1): When we try to introduce it sometimes, they very often say that it is sectarian.
Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. You do not know. Why do you say sectarian? How it is sectarian?
Devotee (1): They say that it represents...
Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. So is it not for everyone? God consciousness is sectarian? Is it meant for certain sect? Or it is meant for human beings?
Hṛdayānanda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: And what they say?
Devotee: They believe him. The Maharaji...
Karandhara: He says that everyone in the world will become his devotees, but we'll, the Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will be the last. But they'll be the best.
Prabhupāda: Kick his face. (laughter) So that means unless the Kṛṣṇa conscious student go there, he is never perfect. That is to be understood.
Karandhara: So we tell them, "If we're the best devotees, then you come and surrender to us."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He admits this.
Hṛdayānanda: Karandhara, does Prabhupāda know about what happened in Houston?
Karandhara: Yeah, he saw the article.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, you saw the article on Houston, how we chanted.
Yaśomatīnandana: Actually Prabhupāda, his books are full of rubbish, garbage. There is no knowledge in the books or any philosophy or anything. They're simply...
Prabhupāda: What is his books? They do not believe in books.
Prajāpati: Then they can say, "Well if we can cure this blood disease, he will live."
Prabhupāda: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So he was a cultivator—"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kavirāja can tell. When my father died, the kavirāja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience but supreme experience is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That means they do not know the value of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. That means rascaldom. That means rascaldom.
Karandhara: One of their chief philosophers, his name was Camus. So after he was propounding this philosophy and writing many books, one night he was driving in his car, and he decided that "There's no meaning, so why not just drive my car off a cliff?" So he just drove his car off a cliff, finished himself off.
Prabhupāda: Mad, madmen.
Karandhara: But his books are in colleges especially. Millions and millions of students accept his books as practically gospel.
Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter of the book?
Karandhara: Subject matter of his books, that life is ultimately absurd. There is no real meaning to it. We place our own meanings on it, but those are...
Prabhupāda: So you are trying... Why you are trying to explain it? Why you are trying to explain it?
Karandhara: Yes, actually he is trying to make reason out of the absurdity.
Prabhupāda: To prove absurd is his reason? That means absurd reason.
Prabhupāda: So he has appreciated this?
Rūpānuga: He has made that remark. He has noted that difference.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Therefore I am unique. Yes. Then I can, become unique. Yes. I am not amongst the rascals.
Rūpānuga: I tell the students... They ask me how they can distinguish between gurus. I tell them the real guru claims to be servant, and not God. I said only one guru says he is servant. That is Śrīla Prabhupāda. And they can understand that.
Candanācārya: Sincere people will appreciate that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prajāpati: In the early days of this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New York, devotees said they did not know how to treat Your Divine Grace. They did not know your exalted position. I think we are still very much offensive.
Prabhupāda: No, I am servant. I have no exalted position. Servant. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sat down in a place where people were washing their feet. Yes. (break) ...a representative of Kṛṣṇa. I came to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa has sent so many representatives to help me. I consider like that. Without your help I could not do. So I wanted Kṛṣṇa's help, so Kṛṣṇa has sent you. Therefore you are representative of Kṛṣṇa. That is my conception.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Locana: And they keep their telephone numbers secret so that on Sunday their patients may not disturb their sense gratification with their medical difficulties.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a very big business here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, medical profession. They have this American Medical Association. They control the whole business. Even government cannot interfere. So they choose students, and they keep the supply so low that the demand is always high. That is why the price always increases. It's terrible.
Karandhara: To stay in a hospital now costs about $150 a day.
Prabhupāda: That is a sort of punishment of sinful activities. When you fall sick, it is due to sinful activity. So you are punished.
Karandhara: It's a very high price.
Rūpānuga: Pay fine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more dangerous is the disease, you have to pay more. (break)
Karandhara: ...very mercenary, hospitals...
Prabhupāda: Everywhere mercenary. Lawyers...
Karandhara: The hospital across the street from our temple, if you go there with an emergency, they say, "First give us money. No money, go away." No matter how serious the injury. "First give us money."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no human quality, these doctors.
Karandhara: We have brought devotees there sometimes with serious wounds or injuries, and they just say, "First you give us money or else go away. We don't care."
Prabhupāda: Everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Is that the man who gave us a car? He is Candrakant?
Guest (1): Candrakant. You were taking their house?
Girirāja: Yes. Near Mahatma Gandhi Road.
Guest (1): Yes, that is Candrakant. In Calcutta, no?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Yes, there is also my student. (break) Now the government is so irresponsible. Just like in Nairobi, I was refused permission. You see. We spent so much money, and they did not inform before. And when I was on the airport... That also, no written order. They said, "From higher authorities it is the order that you cannot enter." Just see. Kenya. So at the present moment we have got many enemies of this movement. (Hindi) "You are converting these European and American into brāhmaṇa. How they can become brāhmaṇa without taking birth as brāhmaṇa?" (Hindi)
Guest (1): You have done quite a lot. (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here also they go to parties. Where they go here?
Jayatīrtha: To downtown Los Angeles and Hollywood.
Prabhupāda: In New York, everywhere, every town, our men go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and sells books. That's it. (break) ...order. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Whomever you meet, you just deliver the instruction of Kṛṣṇa to him. That's all. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). (break) (Hindi) They have got a cultural department, but not for helping this. And then... (Hindi) This is my position. Just see. (Hindi) That is the śāstric injunction. Kīrtana means about Viṣṇu. But these Ramakrishna men will say, "Why not Kālī?"
Guest (1): No, no, no, they never say that.
Hṛdayānanda: Also On Chanting.
Jagajjīvana: Yeah, there is a chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, Second chapter is done. It hasn't been distributed yet until February. We are two blocks away from a college. It has 32,000 students, and we go there every day and chant and the Communists come and we start preaching to them.
Prabhupāda: Communists? Students are under Communistic? What the Communists preaches? There is no God?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. And that in this life you can become perfect. There can be a perfect man without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ah, so who has become that perfect man? Amongst your Communists? The Stalin is considered the greatest criminal in the world, in the history, Stalin. So how he is perfect man? If he is the greatest criminal?
Jagajjīvana: (break) Mostly Spanish countries. (break) Another town in Puerto Rico we have a center there also.
Prabhupāda: Where it is?
Jagajjīvana: That is on the other side of the island, on Puerto Rico.
Prabhupāda: Rūpānuga Mahārāja went there?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. And...
Prabhupāda: He can speak in Spanish?
Jagajjīvana: No. We have a translator. He speaks and someone translates. And there is a school there with 25,000 students. Scientist students. (break) ...all photographs of the chanting to show how people are taking this.
Prabhupāda: Taking part. That's nice.
Prabhupāda: Election?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. He is thinking of running for Congress next. (break) And that was very nice.
Prabhupāda: Students are doing very nice?
Jagajjīvana: Oh yes. I was there before when Amarendra ran for mayor in Dallas. I helped him with that. And I got a chance to associate with the children there. And they have made so much advancement since last I was there.
Prabhupāda: They are now chanting ślokas very nice?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very well. And Hiraṇyagarbha Prabhu is teaching them Sanskrit and English. But mostly they like kīrtana. They become very ecstatic during kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: That is real business.
Jagajjīvana: So Mohānanda was very good at kīrtana. He was kīrtana man. Expert. (end)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...Mahatma Gandhi Road.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Daniel, come here. Daniel Sardar.
Sujit: Sujit.
Prabhupāda: Sujit, oh. (Bengali conversation regarding his being a student of science, chemistry and plastics engineering, and Śrīla Prabhupāda tells him that he attended Scottish Churches' College) (break) ...astrology?
Sujit: What is my opinion?
Prabhupāda: No. I am asking scientist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: First of all I did not believe astrology in the beginning. I thought it was a pseudo science.
Prabhupāda: No, you may think, but what is the opinion of the scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, scientists would say that there is no background.
Prabhupāda: So how it so happens?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they say something which cannot be proved by experimental science, that does not work, calling science.
Prabhupāda: So then how do you say that life is from matter? That cannot be proved by experiment.
Viṣṇujana: In this country they have the venereal disease. One out of ten men is suffering gonorrhea.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Long ago one professor, medical professor, he said, he was Englishman—that in our country, 75% students are suffering from venereal disease. Colonel Megor (?). Yes. Colonel Megor. There must be venereal disease because sex life is so cheap. There must be venereal disease. And venereal disease, once infected, it brings so many other diseases, one after another, one after another. The cancer is also due to that. Madness. Yes. And the Vedic civilization knew it. Therefore first restriction: sex. Brahmacārī. First beginning, brahmacārī. No sex life. You see? Just to save. This venereal disease is mentioned in the Āyur-veda. It is called phiraṅgāmaya. Phiraṅga means "white Europeans." It is diseased... And medical science also says that it was begun from dog. The girls, they have sex life with dog and there is the beginning of venereal disease.
Viṣṇujana: Yes, from animal. Ass, dog, cow.
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. So the girl becomes infected, and she distributes to all men who have sex life with... This is the beginning of sex life. And in Mexico I have heard that they regularly make theatrical demonstration, how a woman is getting sex with ass.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā there are so many. They'll purchase another rascal's Bhagavad-gītā. Simply you make propaganda that what is real leadership. Then they will inquire and we shall reply. (break) ...so many things. So we may not create any disruption amongst our solidarity. Then things will not make progress. In a big machine, even one screw is slack, the machine stops. You know that? So we should not commit such mistake. "Don't care. It is a small screw." No. Even that small screw can stop the whole machine. (break) ...that we are on the platform of deathlessness. Then we can be careful about falling down. And this is a fact.
Bali Mardana: And we will not want to fall down.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is seriousness. Suppose you are going on a plane to Vaikuṇṭha. So your business should be that you may not fall down. The plane may not stop. It is like that. (break) ...Bhāgavata, simply this point is being stressed, that "This is the platform of deathlessness."
Bali Mardana: Oh.
Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Where is that boy? No, not... Oh, you. So you are now living in Mexico?
Devotee: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. He's our old student.
Bali Mardana: Yeah, from New York.
Prabhupāda: From New York, yes. (Break) ...fall. Simply by following the regulations and chanting. That's all. (end)
Prabhupāda: Otherwise what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that this without prayer, things have failed. That's a fact. You take this point.
Umāpati: Yes. The schools are falling apart. Delinquency and there's lots of criminal activity amongst the children in school. And even the teachers are walking out of the classrooms because of the violence in the schools and the lack of communication with their students.
Prabhupāda: No, in India, in examination hall there is regularly police. Regularly. I have seen it. So what is the value of this education? There is regular police. Now there is no ordinary guard.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact some people get killed. During the examination hall, people get killed.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes people want to copy, and those people who are...
Prabhupāda: Guarding.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They catch them, and sometimes they get killed outside. Still in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There has been case.
Guest (1): I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right, perfect method of prasāda.
Prabhupāda: No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan?
Guru dāsa: Bob Dylan.
Prabhupāda: Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda, what can I do for him." He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted.
Guest (1): He's also attracted.
Prabhupāda: Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya?
Guru dāsa: Vaijayanti Mala.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guru dāsa: Vaijayanti Mala.
Prabhupāda: Vaijayanti.
Prabhupāda: Ah, what is your age now?
Dr. Kapoor: I am sixty-two, now, sixty-three, sixty-three.
Prabhupāda: Ten years. Not ten years, nine years.
Dr. Kapoor: Nine years.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because when you were a student, at that time we were family man.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, when I had just finished my university career, I think...
Prabhupāda: In Allahabad, when you were living at that...
Dr. Kapoor: Gauḍīya Maṭha.
Prabhupāda: Gauḍīya Maṭha, I think you were student then.
Dr. Kapoor: I had just, I think, I was a research student then. I had just taken my MA and I was working as a research scholar. I met Giri Mahārāja in 1931 when he did some (indistinct) at Nainital.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: (to someone walking) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: One man is coming today.
Dr. Patel: Then let him start, right earnest, and I will be the student along with him. I want to replace my all Sanskrit knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit knowledge, whatever you have got, that is sufficient for understanding. We don't require to be a Sanskrit scholar.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't want to be scholar. I want to learn all the ancient literatures. Bhakta does not want to learn even, but I am a little of that temperament. Whole day I pass my time in reading only, practically.
Prabhupāda: So bhakti is jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When you will not try to become a jñānī, then you'll come to the stage of bhakti.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind but let me...
Prabhupāda: So long, so long you...
Dr. Patel: I don't want to remain a jñānī.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhaktas are not ajñānī.
Dr. Patel: Myself, I don't talk of others.
Prabhupāda: No, no, yourself also. A bhaktas, they're not ajñānī. That is rascaldom. If says the bhaktas are ajñānī, that is rascaldom because Kṛṣṇa says, teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ, nāśayāmi (BG 10.11). If Kṛṣṇa helps him to become jñānī, then how he's ajñānī? It is a, ignorance, they say bhaktas are not jñānīs. Without jñāna, there is no question of bhakta. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Bhakta means he's already qualified with jñāna and vairāgya. That is bhakta.
Dr. Patel: Now, hippie movement started from America. That means they started first. Not after coming to India...
Prabhupāda: But they learned it from India.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: They came here... I have got many students. They came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they learned gañjā smoking and keeping high, big beard. You know. There is a sannyāsa-āśrama in Delhi. And people contribute them gañjā. Not only they, I know... My father, he was also attached to so many sannyāsīs. So in Kālī-ghāṭa, there was a sannyāsī...
Dr. Patel: Sannyāsīs, those nāgā-bābās, they smoke.
Prabhupāda: Not nāgā... He was a regular sannyāsī, Māyāvādī sannyāsī. So my father was giving them the saffron cloth and gañjā. People accept it that this is one of the items.
Dr. Patel: That gañjā should be given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, so badly impressed. So this gañjā-smoking has spread all over the world as the hippie movement.
Prabhupāda: No, it is all gone.
Dr. Patel: That is why, that is why you don't speak much of Muslims. But they are rogues and rascals, lower than...
Prabhupāda: No, we don't hate Muslims. I have got many students, Muslims.
Dr. Patel: No, we don't hate. I mean, what they have done in past, their forefathers. They have demolished so many temples. Because they did not... They were all (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: And this is all going on. Even in the Kurus' family, the other party, how much wrong they did to the Pāṇḍavas. They insulted their wife, they took their kingdom, and so many... They sent them to the forest, banishment. What did they not do? It is not the question of Hindu-Muslim. It is the question of the man, who is concerned.
Dr. Patel: Swami, you have got a soft kind of conscience.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Dr. Patel: Soft kind of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: No, no. For everybody. No, No. Because these are, these are designation. So our philosophy is sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). Be free from all designations. Just like you are. You don't hate any particular patient because he's Hindu or Muslim.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Devotee: They're self-interested. They're making money and forgetting the public.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Godless. They must be like that. Gandhi was a student of Bhagavad-gītā—never taught about Kṛṣṇa. This is his knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: They want the material after killing the source. After killing the cows, they want milk. After...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi was approached by the Hindus that "You are doing so much for the Mohammedans. The Mohammedans are obedient. So why don't you stop this cow killing?" "How can I interfere with their religious?" Just see.
Devotee: This is...
Prabhupāda: "Cow killing is religion." And he was such a fool that if somebody said that "Cutting the throat of others is my religion," he would allow, "Yes, you can do that."
Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college.
Satsvarūpa: For the public in general?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.
Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?
Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.
Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training.
Hṛdayānanda: But Prabhupāda, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would...
Hṛdayānanda: Boarding school.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.
Prabhupāda: Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way?
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so...
Prabhupāda: Hm? History must be for great person. This is history.
Hṛdayānanda: So in our varṇāśrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...
Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.
Hṛdayānanda: What he kills.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇḍālas.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?
Prabhupāda: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brāhmaṇas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.
Hṛdayānanda: The vaiśya students will produce the food.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go.
Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away.
Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.
Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.
Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.
Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.
Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...
Prabhupāda: Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.
Hṛdayānanda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college.
Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.
Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra.
Prabhupāda: ...disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious (indistinct) is an opiate of the (indistinct). It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana. To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come. Then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for pan... I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and...
Guest (Indian man): Signatures of them.
Prabhupāda: Many thousands many lakhs. And this is one point... And we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad-gītā, that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Bhajana, bhajante, this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ. And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ, miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious man, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as,... It is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). These are the symptoms of mahātmās.
Prabhupāda: "Because of My direction." Hetunānena. "On this account." Mayādhyakṣeṇa. "Under My Supreme control." Just like these boys and girls, my students, they are working under my direction. They are individuals, I am also individual. And they have got their independence, to obey or not to obey, but still, they are directed under my supervision. Similarly, this material nature has got individual power. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). But still, yasya icchānurūpam api ceṣṭate sā. That material nature is working under the direction of the Supreme Person. Therefore govindam ādi-puruṣam. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: We call him Baby. He is innocent like a baby.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very good qualification. But sometimes babies are misled.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: These boys in western...
Prabhupāda: They are now introducing. Now, when it is introduced, they'll be accustomed. They'll drink day and night. Don't bother.
Dr. Patel: I have not got that experience. When I was a student in London, in London University, the boys there, they drink but not that much as they drink here. They are abusing it.
Prabhupāda: Every, every few steps there is a wine shop.
Dr. Patel: Now, every few steps, now you can have that in your own home. Here. You give the minister ten thousand rupees of bribes for a license to... (break) ...have in your home. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...these four things which we are prohibiting: illicit sex...
Dr. Patel: And drinking, meat-eating.
Prabhupāda: Yes, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. So these four things are encouraged by the government. Gambling, that, what is that? Lottery.
Prabhupāda: ...seven years. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: (talking constantly in background to somebody else) And these boys are very good students because they are... (break) ...this dating business. I hate this word date itself. Eh?
Prabhupāda: Well, this hating... You hate for something, he hates for something else. That is going on.
Dr. Patel: But this dating... That is why I to... I mean, I did not see my wife before I married her. And we were very happy all the life. (break)
Prabhupāda: That is not happening nowadays. Now, when... One girl is visited many times, and she becomes pregnant. Then marriage takes place.
Dr. Patel: Then only...
Guest (1): By force you marry.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no marriage.
Guest (1): Now they are, they questioned and they call this the modern day...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...of the same quality.
Guest (1): That is the now. That is how.
Prabhupāda: How the mother can do that! Birds of the same feather.
Prabhupāda: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.
Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaiṣṇava will not say this. The ideal Vaiṣṇava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat even in England as a student of London University-meat.
Prabhupāda: I'm recommending you to eat meat?
Dr. Patel: No, you eat the..., indirectly so.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.
Dr. Patel: No, I'm not taking this lesson, going to kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.
Prabhupāda: That is meant for others!
Dr. Patel: Ācchā! Not for me.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Chemical evolution." "From chemical life has come." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize.
Dr. Patel: That is the Russians.
Mr. Sar: Is it?
Dr. Patel: No, that man has not got the Nobel Prize.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. I know. In California University he was there. So one of, one of my students, he's also professor in the... Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" That time he said, "That I cannot say." From that day, his meeting was not attended by the students. Yes. He theoretically said that "From chemicals life has come into existence."
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact...
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: ...life keeps the chemicals together. As soon as the life goes away, the chemicals dissolve.
Prabhupāda: Dissolve, yes. As a medical practitioner, you know. Where is chemical? Where is chemical? That is a fact.
Dr. Patel: "He is dear to Me, and I am dear to him." Jñānī.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But He is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to Him.
Prabhupāda: No, especially. Especially. Just like you have got many students. One is very intelligent. You take care of him especially. Therefore... The jñānī is intelligent. Therefore He takes care.
Mr. Sar: Udārāḥ sarva evaite jñānī tv ātmaiva me matam (BG 7.18).
Dr. Patel: That is very important.
Prabhupāda: Everything is important.
Dr. Patel: Jñānī tva ātmaiva me matam.
Prabhupāda: Yes, "Because he has accepted Me after full knowledge, nobody can defeat him. Therefore he is My ātmā." Especially.
Dr. Patel: So jñānīs a...
Mr. Sar: Āsthito...
Prabhupāda: Jñānī means one who can defend by knowledge Kṛṣṇa's identity. That is jñānī.
Mr. Sar: Or he's āsthitaḥ...
Dr. Patel: "Perpetually welded with Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual. Yes. (break) ...is, that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata-āntar-ātmanā (BG 6.47). That is the supreme samādhi, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...little by little.
Mr. Sar: Little by little.
Dr. Patel: And we, because we are dull students... (Gujarati) (break)
Prabhupāda: Why? Why do they go to the college and university? They could do it independently. (break) Therefore tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Inquisitive, jijñāsu, they should go to the proper person who knows it.
Dr. Patel: He is, that... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...eighth time. No? Thirteenth time?
Dr. Patel: Thirteenth time. Now you must time, describe the fourteenth time because thirteen is a bad number. (Prabhupāda chuckles)
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got the translation. All my secretaries, they have got. (break) (kīrtana, Acyutānanda singing) (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Everything is I. Everything is I." Because it is His energy, therefore He is. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. The energy and the energetic, they are identical.
Dr. Patel:
- pitāham asya jagato
- mātā dhātā pitāmahaḥ
- vedyaṁ pavitram oṁkāra
- ṛk sāma yajur eva ca
- (BG 9.17)
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Everything, these Vedas, that I am." Vedaiś cāham, aham eva vedyaḥ. So these... There are rascals. They claim that "We are Vedic student. We don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. We don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā." You know this rascal society?
Dr. Patel:
- gatir bhartā prabhuḥ sākṣī
- nivāsaḥ śaraṇaṁ suhṛt
- prabhavaḥ pralayaḥ sthānaṁ
- nidhānaṁ bījam avyayam
- (BG 9.18)
"Everything is I. I am death as well as I am life."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: It will be unanswerable by me. I have to submit. Otherwise you may fire me unnecessarily and create trouble, and I create trouble for you.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I will not fire. I'll not fire. We are coming to reasoning. Without paripraśna, reasoning... Either you should accept that you should not, anyone, recommend any imitation...
Dr. Patel: We accept God what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā, all right, in toto.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we are actually student of Bhagavad-gītā, we should accept it in total instead of deviating from that. That is my request. We are teaching that. Why one should deviate?
Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa is one reality. He may have many forms. He may have many names. Kṛṣṇa is one reality. He is correct. But He can have many names. Eko sad-viprā bahudhā vadanti.
Prabhupāda: Bahudhā vadanti, but bahudhā are mentioned. Mentioned. Just like Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma. That is in the śāstra. Therefore, if you take one of the names, then you have to refer to the śāstra, not that you manufacture one word. That you cannot do.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, at the present moment, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Demons, they are too much attached to material enjoyment, bhoga and aiśvarya. So they cannot take to it. Therefore our general principle is to perform saṅkīrtana, not to talk philosophy. When one is interested, then he can talk philosophy. Otherwise this talk should be amongst inner circles, with the students and the teacher, those who are submissive. Otherwise it should be avoided. It will create misunderstanding.
Satsvarūpa: What about programs at schools and colleges?
Prabhupāda: Because they are innocent. The children, they are innocent. So if possible, give them some enlightenment, kṛpā, to become merciful upon them. So far children are concerned, they hear, they try to learn. Just like in Dallas, whatever we say, they accept. They do not protest. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then?
Girirāja: "Vasudeva thought of his wife as follows: 'For the present let me save the life of Devakī and later on, if there are children, I shall see how to save them.' He further thought..."
Prabhupāda: This is the consideration. By policy if he could save his wife, that first. He was following like that...
Girirāja: " 'If in the future I get a child who can kill Kaṁsa, just as Kaṁsa is thinking, then both Devakī and the child will be saved, because the law of providence is inconceivable. But now someway or other let me save the life of Devakī.' " (break)
Prabhupāda: ...jumps. In the village also there is experience, when there is fire, it jumps over another house, leaving one house in the middle.
Prabhupāda: But we haven't got to learn from you. We have got better teacher than you.
Yaśomatīnandana: I told him like that.
Prabhupāda: (chants japa) (break). They'll talk of Kṛṣṇa, so many things but they're not devotees. Just like Kaṁsa. They may talk of Kṛṣṇa or think of Kṛṣṇa, but they don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Therefore they are demons. This is the test. They'll read Bhagavad-gītā, but they'll not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. And that is the demonic. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because they are demons, therefore their so-called knowledge is useless. Apahṛta-jñāna. And apparently, they seem to be very learned scholar, but there is no knowledge. There is no knowledge. This is the demonic... Just like Rāvaṇa. He was very much advanced student in Vedic literature. But he was a demon. So simply by studying Vedas one does not become out of the jurisdiction of demons. Just like Jarasandha. He was also worshiping Viṣṇu. But he was a demon. He was a demon. His purpose was different. The yajñic brāhmaṇas, they also could not understand Kṛṣṇa. So this is the crucial test. If one does not understand Kṛṣṇa and become submissive to surrender, he remains a demon, however big scholar he may be.
Prabhupāda: Samādhi, we are offering respect to the ācāryas. Yes. Not that we are simply worshiping samādhi. We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa also, side by side. It is not that... Then samādhi worship is finished. That is ācārya. Ācārya is, although worshiped as the Supreme Lord, but the Lord is also worshiped. And these Māyāvādīs, they give up the worship of Lord. So therefore they are Māyāvādīs. In Māyāvādī temple you'll find the picture of the guru and not the picture of Kṛṣṇa. I have seen in Surat, one temple of "Rāma." There is no Rāma. Guru is Rāma. That's all. Guru brahma, (Hindi) (break) ...caittya-guru, because he has merged into the existence of Lord, he has become Lord. "Merging-Lord. Daridra-nārāyaṇa, merging-nārāyaṇa." This is...
Devotee: The Jains have the same kind of philosophy also.
Prabhupāda: Everyone. All philosophies, they are more or less Māyāvāda. All Māyāvāda. Different types of Māyāvāda philosophy. Therefore they should be discarded. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. What you are, all students?
Mahāṁsa: This is also a siddhi, that they can invent a plane...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent. By material arrangement... The yogis can do still more. Without any material machine, they can float. They can walk on the water, becomes light. (break) ...man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is the process. (break) ...colleges, the students are being educated that there is no God. And they expect good behavior from them. And when they set fire in the bus, that is... "The students are so dangerous now." But you have made them dangerous. The educational system. They are protesting against the existence of God. (break) ...so-called swamis. And they are also accelerating, "yes, no more. There is no God. Why you are searching God anywhere? There are so many gods loitering in the street. They are God." That is the statement of Vivekananda. "Why you are finding out, trying to find out God elsewhere. These are Gods." (break) ...if required, one may come, very easily, one may take some time. But we should go on preaching.
Prabhupāda: I will talk. Why he is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? And not only that... I do not know whether here. In Delhi have seen Rāma-līlā, the effigy of Rāvaṇa is beaten with shoes sometimes. But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Śiva gave him all benedictions, "Whatever you want." So why this Rāvaṇa is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brāhmaṇa by birth. He was born of a brāhmaṇa father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as rākṣasa? You answer this point.
Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with... So kāma, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also... (break)
Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone... That is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be... He may be very, very big or so-called saintly, but according to the description of the śāstras, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we...
Indian man (3): He was devotee of Lord Śiva. Otherwise why Lord Śiva gives him whatever he wants?
Prabhupāda: Lord Śiva is Lord Śiva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Śiva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Śiva, why he is described as rākṣasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Rāvaṇa a rākṣasa, according to the śāstra, another devotee may be angry.
Guest (7): But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran.
Guest (7): Yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have got branch in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes.
Guest (8): You have got a center established in Iran?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (8): Within what time? Recent?
Prabhupāda: I think about two years. Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. And everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Guest (8): How do they respond in China?
Prabhupāda: Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel... Everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders. That's all.
Prabhupāda: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making life members but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? I know one boy. He is about forty-two years. But he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any, prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhana(?) Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over. Now he is useless. He does not get any service. Although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English—he does not get any responsible position.
Prabhupāda: They are all śūdras. Not will be. All, everyone is śūdras. This movement is to promote the śūdras to the highest class, Vaiṣṇava, more than brāhmaṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Everyone is rascal, śūdra. (break) ...śūdras should be elevated, elevated, but when even a śūdra is engaged in the service of the Lord, he becomes transcendental, above brāhmaṇa. (break)
Akṣayānanda: It said that eight people were shot in Aurangabad with student riots, and the police got their guns and they started to shoot all the people. The same thing is happening in Gaya. The students are protesting against this and that. It said that they were protesting against degradation.
Prabhupāda: Degradation?
Akṣayānanda: Yes. That is supposed to be the reason for their rebellion. They are protesting against corruption and degradation.
Prabhupāda: But the rascals, why they themselves do not, be not reformed? Protesting against degradation. Why you are degraded? What is that protest? You are degraded. You reform yourself. That they will not do. Protest against degradation. Are you not degraded? Are you pure? So what is the use of protesting? You reform yourself. They can protest in this way that our guardians, our government, they have degraded ourselves. But that's all right. But guardian is a fool, your father is a fool. But why you are remaining as a fool? That they will not an... If we say, "Now you come to us. We shall raise you from degradation," that they will not do. That they will not agree. Now go to them, all these students, that "You are thinking that you are degraded. So why you should be, mean dog...? Come on, we shall reform you. We shall give you the highest post, brahminical post. Give up these four principles." That they will not do. Will they do?
Akṣayānanda: No. One may come out of a thousand.
Satsvarūpa: That's what he wrote in his letter.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Satsvarūpa: He thinks that he's going to win. (break)
Prabhupāda: ... that these rascal leaders, they cannot give us any comfort. All over the world. Here in the Gujarat, the students have insulted the leader, you know? So horribly, they have dragged the prime minister, chief minister, dragged him and set up and seated on an ass's back. In this way he was insulted.
Mahāṁśa: Prime Minister.
Prabhupāda: The chief minister.
Mahāṁśa: The chief minister.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: This was in Jerusalem?
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, no, is Gujarat, here.
Devotee: Gujarat.
Prabhupāda: The next province. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...speaking all the words that he has learned from him. Very good. Very nicely he's presenting.
Akṣayānanda: Where is that, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Bombay. And he's speaking on Gītār Gān. Gītār Gān means to construct a big śiva-liṅga temple. He's proving himself a rascal by his activities. He's a rascal number one. He has gone many times to foreign countries, but not a single foreign student he has got. (break) ...from atheistic fools who are not prepared to follow any rules and regulations, they are after him.
Akṣayānanda: That Sai Baba too...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone.
Akṣayānanda: Many of those young boys and girls, they are potential devotees. They are just in it for a bit of fun. A bit of fashion or fun.
Prabhupāda: Similarly Rajneesh. (break) ...very good intelligence, Lieberman.
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he's speaking very nicely. He's fit for that position. Similarly our, what is his name?
Satsvarūpa: Balavanta.
O'Grady: When he goes back to his original.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute.
O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time?
Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nations. And after that again there was war. (chuckles)
O'Grady: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nations. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united, but when I go New York, I see flags are increasing, no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform.
O'Grady: Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most good for them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state—because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition, they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one—what we are faced with, is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here"? "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way: "Who am I?" "You are..." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also.
Prabhupāda: So...
O'Grady: And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally... And one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or... Well, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is... There are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master."
Michael Robert: We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and met our students. They're invited to come.
Prabhupāda: Where it is?
Yogeśvara: It's a school in Rome.
Prabhupāda: Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. It is my duty.
O'Grady: Just to pay a visit, meet the children.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness.
O'Grady: God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dhanañjaya: A philosophical society.
Prabhupāda: Historic.
Dhanañjaya: Not historical, more philosophical. And he writes many papers for the Catholic Church, for the Vatican.
Prabhupāda: I was also student of philosophy in 1916 to 20 under professor Dr. W.S. Urquhart in Calcutta, Scottish Churches' College. He was my professor. Later on, he became vice chancellor, very big philosopher. We read Dr. Stephens Metaphysics. What is your special subject for study?
Richard Webster: Well, it's rather difficult to say. I suppose medieval philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Medieval.
Richard Webster: From a modern point of view.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Richard Webster: From a modern point of view.
Prabhupāda: Modern.
Richard Webster: I was not a specialist in medieval or anything. So it seems to me that...
Prabhupāda: What is the conception?
Richard Webster: They have some basic conceptions which are eternal in, the same way as your own, perhaps.
Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature we have information, two eternals. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. It is personally identified. "There is one chief eternal, and there are many other eternals." So then it means the chief eternal is God, and other subordinate eternals are living entities. Just like we are all living entities. We are in different forms, but we are eternal. The form is not eternal, but the owner of the form is eternal. And similarly, the chief eternal is God.
Richard Webster: And Christians, how do you present this? Suppose if someone was a Christian.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Christian, if you take... Just like Lord Jesus Christ is a bona fide teacher, and he has given his teaching, his commandments. If you follow those commandments, then you are bona fide student. But if you don't follow then you are not bona fide.
Richard Webster: And if you try to follow but fail or if you...
Prabhupāda: No, you must follow. You cannot fail. Just like Lord Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." You must follow that. If you do not follow, then you are not Christian. It is not the question of that you could not follow or you are weak to follow. You must follow.
Richard Webster: But the Christians have a thing about forgiveness of...
Prabhupāda: Whatever is there...
Richard Webster: Within the Christian religion there is a strong emphasis on possible failure and forgiveness.
Prabhupāda: No. Forgiveness is... I know that in church the confession program is there. Forgiveness... Suppose you are or I am an offender. I ask your forgiveness. So you can forgive me once, twice, thrice, not more than that. You cannot make it a profession that you go on committing sins and God will forgive you. No, that is not possible. That is misconception. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). This sudurācāraḥ, means offender, that is not willful offense. One person is accustomed to some bad habits, but he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. But on account of strong habit, if he fails sometimes, that is excused, forgiveness, not that willful committing sin and ask for forgiveness. That is not allowed. In common affairs we do not see. I have got practical, I mean to say, experience. In my householder life I was proprietor of a big pharmacy. So my manager sold some morphia preparation to some unauthorized person. So the sales inspector, they noted it and made us a criminal. And the magistrate called me because I was the proprietor. So my statement was given that "I do not conduct the business directly. Of course, I am responsible for my manager's fault, but I shall be very strict in future. You can forgive me." Immediately I was forgiven. But next time, if I go, if I say like that, that is not forgiven. That is not possible. So this forgiveness is good for accidental fault. But it cannot be continued, that is a wrong philosophy.
Richard Webster: Is it wrong to kill, to eat fish?
Prabhupāda: You cannot eat anything, even grass, without the sanction of God, what to speak of fish and others. You cannot eat even a piece of grass. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kiñca jagatyāṁ jagat, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God. You can simply enjoy after being sanctioned by God. Otherwise not. This is real philosophy. Everything belongs... Just like in this room, it is supposed that everything belongs to me. Even my students, they ask, "May I take this?" They have got right to take, but still, they ask. Similarly, you cannot touch anything—everything belongs to God—without His sanction. This is God consciousness.
Richard Webster: Yes, well, I wholly agree with that.
Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything...
Richard Webster: I entirely agree with that.
Prabhupāda: ...whimsically. It is not possible. Tena eva sa ucyate. If anyone does whimsically, then he becomes immediately thief. So you are a big philosopher. Kindly you spread...
Richard Webster: Very small philosopher.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Anyway, if you spread this God consciousness, this knowledge of God consciousness, philosophy of God consciousness...
Richard Webster: Yes, well, I'm going to write an article on that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles, they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me, and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, you chant always God's name on these beads.
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
(buzzer sounds) And we worship... (pause) (one man is apparently showing pictures) This is also a church?
Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama.
Prabhupāda: Buddhism.
Monsignor Verrozano: Buddhist, but this is from India.
Prabhupāda: This is Hindu temple.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty-thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went... I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical... Or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead: That is first-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first... And besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found.
Prabhupāda: As long as they will not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have to tolerate. They must suffer. That is nature's law. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā... (BG 7.14). You cannot escape all these miserable conditions of... Mām eva ye prapadyante. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you escape. What is difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Simply always think of Me." We have got nice Kṛṣṇa. And attend the temple, and we see. And what is the difficulty to think of Him always? Or chanting, hearing His name. So there is no difficulty in remembering Kṛṣṇa always. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. To become devotee, worship the Lord in the temple, prepare food for Him, and take the prasādam—where is the difficulty? The program which we have introduced, where is the difficulty there? But the rascals will not take. That is the difficulty. They will become hippies, but they will not become devotees. Although a better position. This is their misfortune. Duṣkṛtina, misfortune. In spite of the things being so easy to perform, they will not take to it, on account of misfortune. Duṣkṛtina. Because they have committed so many sinful activities, it is difficult to accept this. Otherwise, the thing which we are presenting is very easy to be accepted by anyone, even by a child. And actually we see. The children, they are also dancing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and very happy. In Dallas. In all schools the children are unhappy, their face. And we see in Dallas, all children, they are so happy. The teacher is happy. The student is happy there. Have you not marked the face in the picture, how they are happy.
Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). A mūrkha, a rascal, when he is given good advice, he becomes angry. He becomes angry. He does not take for solution of the problem, but he becomes angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (?). Because they are miscreants, like snakes, if you give him milk, his poison will increase. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam.
Yogeśvara: When I was at the university, there were two kinds of strikes. One was by the students and the other one was by the professors.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) And what about the clerks? They also strike sometimes.
Yogeśvara: They took advantage of the two.
Prabhupāda: Everyone dissatisfied—that's a fact. This is a bad civilization.
Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī is giving a course in Paris at one university, and there we can't always have our classes. We are scheduled every week, but we've only had two or three. The whole rest of the time the university has been closed because the students were striking. Practically the whole year.
Bhagavān: (car screeches as passing by) So fast and they go nowhere.
Prabhupāda: He is proud that "How fast I can drive!" Just see. And where you are going? "I am going to hell, that's all. Never mind." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā Just like the flies. They are coming very forcefully. Where? In the fire. Pat! Pa! Pa! Pa! Pa!" They are very busy. And as soon as on the fire, finished. Just see. Very busy. Without inquiring, "Where I am going so forcefully?" But they are going to the fire.
Satsvarūpa: We should go on the walk. The cars are coming on the road.
Prabhupāda: So we shall walk? (break) ...containing three passengers, wasting petrol. Similarly, hundreds and thousands and millions of cars and buses are running all over the world, simply wasting petrol.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago. You know that Dr. Ghosh?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He told me that when he was student, so one professor, Colonel Megar, he described in the classroom—he is Englishman—that "In our country, 75% of the students, they are infected with venereal disease." So Dr. Ghosh as a student, "Oh, it is horrible." So he replied, "Why do you say, 'Horrible'? It is disease. In your country, 90% people are infected with malarial disease. So as a medical practitioner, you should not say that this disease is horrible; that disease is very nice. You cannot say that." That was between them. So this venereal disease, fifty years ago we heard that 75% of students are infected. Now they are advanced; cent percent must be.
Yogeśvara: There was a report in the New York Times that last year alone in the United States there were over 300,000 abortions, and more than two-thirds were performed on girls under twenty years of age.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is civilization. Poor girls, they are victims. These rascals are enjoying without any responsibility of marriage. And sex impulse is very strong between thirteen years up to thirty years. So people take advantage of it, and the poor girls become victim. So many anomalies. This is a doggish, demonic civilization. This is not civilization at all. They are not interested. They do not know what is the aim of life. First mistake is that "I am this body." This is doggish. Just like the dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am a big dog here. Don't come." Similarly, if a man thinks, "I am a big American, I am great Englishman," then what is the difference? The dog is also thinking like that. And Vedic civilization says, "No, you are neither dog nor human being." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." This is Vedic civilization. One is being trained up to understand this philosophy, that "I do not belong to this, any material condition. I am Brahman part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Where is that conception?
Dhanañjaya: It's called "streaking."
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University—all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has... You have not seen our Harmonist prepared. Collapse.
Satsvarūpa: I saw it yesterday. The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked.
Prabhupāda: And another has that "education has collapsed."
Dhanañjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values.
Prabhupāda: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all.
Yogeśvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.
Prabhupāda: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He remained completely brahmacārī, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyāsadeva, a personality like Vyāsadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahaṁsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are gṛhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyāsī. What is sannyāsī? Vānaprastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī—no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacārī has no sex life, the vānaprastha has no sex life, the sannyāsī has no sex life. Only the gṛhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed—it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyāsa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyāsa." That's all.
Yogeśvara: This is a man's story, if I may mention in this connection. Rūpānuga Mahārāja, one of our students, before joining the movement was a social worker. And he told me once a story about a particular case of a woman who was in a very destitute position. Her husband was in the hospital, she had five children, and one was... So many problems were there. And Rūpānuga was going and giving her her weekly money from the government, welfare check. And one day he came unexpectedly because part of his job was to see how they were using the money. And he found her there in her apartment with a strange man and drugs and alcohol on the floors and the children running naked, and he was obliged to stop giving her the money. Simply because there had been no proper use of it, there was no point in giving it. It was not doing her any good. To improve her situation superficially wasn't improving the situation at all.
Prabhupāda: You understand that?
C. Hennis: Yes. Well, of course it's only by a long term of general program of cultural improvement that you can hope to overcome that kind of problem. On the other hand, it would be, I think, wrong to argue from that experience that the provision of welfare benefits to all people who are destitute should be stopped, you see. It is true that...
Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to say that.
Prabhupāda: That is automatically taught in bhakti-yoga. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. It is said, "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga. But if the master is such a rascal that if he asks the disciple that "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga, first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi, like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama.
M. Roost: Yes, and first is...
Prabhupāda: I know several yogis, so-called yogis in New York. They are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. They are taking fees and having sex with the disciple and are yogis. Just see. This is going on. Brahmacārī vrate?
Nitāi: Manaḥ saṁyamya mac-cittaḥ.
Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. The personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The... Just like, the same example: the sun god, the sun planet and sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun god. So sun god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge they cannot understand it. Therefore stop... (break) ...light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said, "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower class students, one plus two equal to three, two plus two..., that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand.
Prabhupāda: Ah. (French)
Yogeśvara: Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university.
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: Theology student. Our spiritual master, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So you have shown our books?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes of these books.
Yogeśvara: (French-Yogeśvara showing books)
Prabhupāda: And Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
M. Roche-dieu: Whose are those pictures?
Yogeśvara: Our students. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations.
M. Roche-dieu: Indian students?
Yogeśvara: No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students.
Prabhupāda: No. American students under my direction.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of...
Satsvarūpa: The letter, in English.
Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.
Herein the statement of Bhāgavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varṇāśrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13).
Robert Gouiran: I have the impression that this translation is not very good because when you define the four states of life and you translate the two last ones by..., mainly the last one, by devotion for sannyāsin. Sannyāsin is not devotion. Sannyāsin is...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I'll read that again. "then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life..."
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "...the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life."
Robert Gouiran: Oh, yes. Another way of the fourth translation, the fourth one.
Yogeśvara: He says that the word sannyāsin should be translated as renunciation instead of devotion. The stage of renunciation, instead of...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?
Robert Gouiran: Well, normal meaning.
Prabhupāda: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you do it. Did I say that you do it?
Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a (indistinct) priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them.
Prabhupāda: No, no, just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. They do like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there?
Priest: It's not wrong. It's funny.
Prabhupāda: Rather these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your...
Priest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it?
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Pradyumna: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād-bhagavat-praṇītam—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect."
Prabhupāda: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama. (aside:) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries. (break) ...record?
Devotee: Which record?
Bhagavān: From this afternoon, the recording.
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Yogeśvara: Śakuni.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animals, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men, they are leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first, second, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is, who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth-class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth-class, less than fourth-class. Fourth-class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principles. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principles just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena... (SB 6.1.13) The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama, controlling the senses. That is real yoga system.
Yogeśvara: I can remember now. When I was in college, there were so many groups trying to reform the young people, the Y.M.C.A, the church groups, so many different social-working groups, trying to make young people become more, not so restless, not so much wild, but no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said, "Oh, he's the one, there."
Prabhupāda: Is there any other meeting?
Jyotirmayī: Yes. It will be later. It will be at six-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming, will be a psychiatrist.
Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda Hari-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances.)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Should I distribute this to the devotees?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. (French)
Yogeśvara: This school is for all ages or just for children?
Prabhupāda: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are... Other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy. Ph.D. Beginning from A,B,C,D, up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. (French)
Pṛthu-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books.
Yogeśvara: Did you write all these books?
Prabhupāda: That you can say. What can I...?
Yogeśvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. (French) He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?"
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word-meaning. (French) Then I combine with reference to the modern society, how they can be applicable to the modern life.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhagavān: They can't...
Prabhupāda: So therefore they have to become our student and become our disciple to understand this science. Otherwise, why there is propaganda if we remain the same fool and rascal? That, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that the stone is also, that is virāḍ-rūpa. That is also Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: But by that argument, then, this body is also Kṛṣṇa, made of earth and water.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Kṛṣṇa's. But you are thinking you are. That is Kṛṣṇa's. Therefore this body should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You, as soon as you accept this body is Kṛṣṇa's, then you cannot employ it for other purposes. But that realization you have no. Why do you say it is Kṛṣṇa's? You are thinking your body. Or you are body. Where is that consciousness?
Paramahaṁsa: The impersonalists argue when they read the verse, ahaṁ sarvasya bhūteṣu...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: They argue that Kṛṣṇa's in the heart of every living entity.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Therefore, every living entity is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Why? If I am in the room, I am room? Is that very good argument? Because I am in this room, I have become room? Is that argument very sound? Kṛṣṇa is within this body. I am also within this body. But does it mean I am body, or Kṛṣṇa is this body?
Prabhupāda: This is French art, to make naked?
Devotee: Yes.
Bhagavān: Little more advanced.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Therefore nowadays students are walking naked in America. Advanced, more advanced.
Bhagavān: There was one picture in the paper of one student running to receive his diploma without any clothes on. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Just see how much rascal they are becoming. (to devotee:) Take care of your son. It is... Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa...
Paramahaṁsa: If the material creation is created by Kṛṣṇa, then man cannot destroy it although they are thinking that if they have a nuclear war, then they will destroy the earth.
Prabhupāda: What they will destroy?
Paramahaṁsa: They're thinking the earth will just blow up with all the atomic bombs.
Prabhupāda: That means this earth will be finished?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Jyotirmayī: ...in France amongst the communist students, the communist Indian students. And I said he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things in the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he came very interested.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Karandhara?
Devotee: He's coming.
Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa, that "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram... Read out this.
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
This is the process of peacefulness, when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas, all worlds. And Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (French) (aside:) Get the light.
Prabhupāda: So? The communist does not? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references.
Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Communists killed others?
Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas, but still they have been arresting forty-thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion.
Karandhara: Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler, Hitler lived amongst the public too. And he was a...
Prabhupāda: No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousands, twenty thousands people, every day come, to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belurmath, or somewhere else—nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently, our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousands, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridvar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea, that it is for the mass, it is false.
Yogeśvara: Shraddhananda Giri.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He said that "Swamiji, you are doing the greatest work, that God's name you are distributing." He said like that. And when the record was going on, he was very rapt attention, he was very... So actual yogi means he'll be attracted by bhakti-yoga. And these gymnasticians, what they'll understand about yoga? That is a process to control the mind. Those who are too much bodily concept of life, for them that exercise is required. But that is also not properly done. They must find out a very sacred place and practice yoga alone, not with group. Group is possible in bhakti-yoga, not this haṭha-yoga. That is not possible. The first attempt is condemned. Therefore all the yogis in India, actually those who are practicing yoga, they'll live outside human society. They never live in the city and get students to get them practice. And take thirty-five dollar fee. These are all bogus.
Professor La Combe: How many officials (?) are there?
Prabhupāda: We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand, yes. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So... And they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are-Indian scholar, I mean—they were surprised when some of my students, the young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa.
Professor La Combe: You have all been to India?
Bhagavān: Not all. Some of us.
Professor La Combe: Not all. Some of you.
Bhagavān: We have a very big center in Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Professor La Combe: I have been in Navadvīpa.
Prabhupāda: I see.
Professor La Combe: Yes. That was one of them actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come...
Prabhupāda: So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita. Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral or you like some philosophy?
Professor La Combe: I try to be objective, but not neutral. I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara.
Prabhupāda: No, Rāmānuja...
Bhagavān: Personal attraction.
Professor La Combe: Yes. Although, of course, I try... I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see.
Prabhupāda: I see.
Yogeśvara: They call them "Flophouses".
Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna. Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking, milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana, sleeping or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, and vyavāya, sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna. I have seen in New York. They have no... In a humbug, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna. So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ, "and dress," hīnāḥ, "being devoid of all these things," piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti, "they will be just like, what is called, urchins."
Yogeśvara: Piśācī.
Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca. What is the English?
Nitāi: Ghost?
Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghost-like. Hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ: "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ, people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost."
Devotee: ...as their means to conquer over the so-called over-population problem.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not over-population. They don't want to take care of children. This is their problem. It is not the question of over-population. They want to remain free and enjoy life, that's all. No responsibility. That is the hippies. That is the hippy movement.
Devotee: I have seen in all the big colleges and universities in England that I have been to, that this, amongst the students, the boys and girls, it is becoming so free. It is just like a hippy commune, the universities and colleges.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are indebted in so many ways. Therefore human being should be responsible. But the modern civilization is teaching to become irresponsible.
Haṁsadūta: (break) ...there, on the sun.
Prabhupāda: So suppose if your heat increases, what happens to you?
Haṁsadūta: I get sick.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19).
Professor Durckheim: Yes, how do you teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel?
Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be: "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā. First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is unaware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy.
Professor Durckheim: No, that's quite clear.
Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking. I am asking my student, "Come here." He comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"—he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning.
Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? It is quite clear for our rational mind, I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, I say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion, because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says, talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says, "Well, you must make exercises." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom.
Prabhupāda: No, as I say, the active principle, I am also the active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham, so 'ham: "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: (BG 18.54) "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly." Prasannātmā. He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati: "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: "He is equal to everyone, man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām: (BG 18.54) "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all... Just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized. Because he has understood "what I am," yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that "I am part and parcel of God. So my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service.
Haṁsadūta: Trinken.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...students, they are advancing for the unflinching faith on guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the secret. (break) ...these devotees, how nice they are. They do not appreciate?
Haṁsadūta: I think most of them cannot understand it, but they sympathize, I think, because the principles are (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: That is appreciation.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, for the principles. At least in Germany we find that although people don't understand it, they appreciate that we are following the four principles.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...understood that this group is another edition of hippies. Gradually they are learning that they are not hippies. They are serious. (break) ...paper it was published that "Swami Bhaktivedanta has come in the right time." And what is that?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, in a number of articles, the writer notes that Prabhupāda came at a perfect time in history, and went to the right place, the lower East Side of New York, and then again in Haight Ashbury, just when the hippie movement was big but they were looking for spiritual life. That is a historical expert move that you made.
Prabhupāda: No, that is very good remark, appreciated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is known as patita-pāvana, the deliverer of the most fallen. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra: "My Lord, Your incarnation is for the reason to deliver all the fallen souls." So He gave one example by delivering Jagāi and Mādhāi, but by His grace, now thousands of Jagāi-Mādhāis are being delivered. He gave the example that here is the typical patita, fallen. So this movement will deliver this kind of people. That is His prediction. Or it... factually by this movement, so many Jagāi-Mādhāis are being delivered. Jagāi... What was their fault? The fault was they were number one woman hunter and all other good qualifications: (laughing) drunkard, meat-eaters and thieves, rogues. That is their qualification. And immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu turned them to become Vaiṣṇava. "Simply promise that... You say that you shall not commit anymore these sinful activities." "Yes, Sir, I will not." So that process we are going on. (end)
Guest: So, bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep you within this material body. The real relief is how to get you out of this material entanglement. Tyaktva dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). (indistinct) After giving up this material body, no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhāgavata says pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more material body. (indistinct) The whole Vedic education system how to stop acceptance of material body. That is called mukti. Mukti, the definition of mukti is given in the Bhāgavata, muktir hitvānyathā rūpam. Mukti means when one is able to give up another form of body. He has got his own body, spiritual body, but so long as he has to accept another form of body, he is conditioned. Bhāgavata, muktir hitvānyathā rūpam sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Mukti means to stay in his original spiritual form. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people how to achieve the original consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. I am so too.
Prabhupāda: Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. It is translated in German too.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. This is just... I received a sample.
Devotee: (German)
Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, yes. Who is author, Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa?
Prabhupāda: He is my disciple.
Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes. From India.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is in Cali... His description is there in the last page, his photograph.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without... If you don't stop meat-eating, you cannot understand what is spiritual life. A sinful life cannot understand what is God, what is devotion. It is not possible.
Guest (2): And is that the same for others...?
Prabhupāda: The sinful, yes. Four items we prohibit our students. They do not indulge. Illicit sex life, meat, fish, egg-eating, intoxication up to cigarette smoking, drinking tea, coffee, and gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So unless one gives up these four things he cannot understand what is God, what is God's kingdom, what is our business. Nobody can understand.
Guest (2): Drinking tea and coffee also?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is also intoxication.
Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, in a lot of scriptures I read there is a lot of references to breath and the breath as being the...
Prabhupāda: Breathing.
Guest (2): And this path of devotional yoga, bhakti-yoga, that is the path for this time, for this age?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti-yoga is the real yoga. You'll find in Bhagavad-gītā when yoga system is described the Lord says,
- yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
- mad-gatenāntarātmanā
- śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
- sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
- (BG 6.47)
"The first-class yogi is he who is always thinking of Me," or Kṛṣṇa, "within Himself." He is first-class yogi. So our, these students, they are being educated how to think of Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours, without any stop. And that is first-class yoga.
Guest (2): If you are to think about something, don't you first have to see that thing?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): Well are you showing your devotees Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.
Guest (2): Then what is...? Well, what is Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Then ask them, who has seen already. Ask them. They'll tell you what is Kṛṣṇa. But the same thing. If he says something about Kṛṣṇa, you will accept it?
Guest (2): Yes.
Guest (2): But if a painter was to paint a picture of me or of Allen or of anybody, first they'd take the subject, and the subject would be a living person, and then they would paint the picture and the picture would be in...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Subject is there, that "Kṛṣṇa's color is bluish, Kṛṣṇa has got in His hand a flute, Kṛṣṇa has got a peacock feather on His head, Kṛṣṇa stands, little curving." Tri-bhaṅga-lalitam. Tri-bhaṅga means in three ways He is curved. You see. Tri-bhaṅga. Three, three times He is curved. Śyāmaṁ tri-bhaṅga-lalitaṁ niyata-prakāśam (Bs. 5.31). These are the description of the Vedas. Just like my students, they have painted so many pictures, so I have given simply the hints that "This picture should be like this." So they take note and make the picture, and people very much appreciate our picture. So you can paint pictures by taking hints from the authority. That is going on. So if you are intelligent, you can make almost like that.
Guest (2): But still, somebody must have seen Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by... That is also statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja, this boy devotee. He says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: (SB 7.5.31) "These foolish people, they do not know, what is their actual self-interest." So he says, "They do not know the actual self-interest is approaching God. That is real self-interest. But they do not know it." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). "They have made their plan wrongly to become happy in this material world." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Bahir-artha-māninaḥ means external: "They have taken the external energy, the material world, as very important. And the leaders also, the so-called leaders... They are being led. The leaders, they are blind, and they are leading some other blind men without knowing that they cannot be happy in that way because he is under strict, stringent laws of nature, material nature." That Bhagavad-gītā therefore recommends,
- daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taranti te
- (BG 7.14)
This is illusion, that they are under the control of the material nature... Just like the so-called foolish scientists. They don't care for God. They think by so-called scientific advancement they will progress..., all the problems will be solved. That is not possible. One of my students, he is double M.A. in chemistry and Ph.D. I asked him to discuss these things. He has written a small, a little book. Find out this book. Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Here, yes, this book. So he has very scientifically discussed. The scientists, so-called scientists, they are going to be as all in all.
Prabhupāda: Continue. (laughter) Who can check?
Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense though, exactly how far your instructions are because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly...
Prabhupāda: You are old student.
Bhūrijana: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like that. You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say... (long, silent pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then it is no advance. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ gatiḥ. This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man, no. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect.
Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it?
Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his...
Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57)
Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background.
Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist?
Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the...
Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and...
Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centers where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the... Most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centers are working in that fashion. We have a school for children where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America.
Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centers are, where some of them are?
Madhudviṣa: The centers are all over the world. We have centers in America and centers...
Prabhupāda: We have got forty centers in America.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Similarly, when we associate with a spiritual master who has Kṛṣṇa consciousness, automatically we also have some taste.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Students.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means enhancing spiritual taste. That is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). And as he increases his spiritual taste, he becomes (sic:) detestful to this material enjoyment. This is the taste.
Jayatīrtha: We should engage the hippies in keeping this place clean.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayatīrtha: The hippies are simply sleeping, and the beach remains dirty.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayatīrtha: Mismanagement.
Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
| Page Title: | Students (Conversations 1973 - 1974) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 23 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=178, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 178 |