Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person?
Prabhupāda: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender.
Devotee: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do. He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully... He'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. They are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre..., in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā: their knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Real thing they do not understand, nor, or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu (BG 16.19). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dviṣataḥ krūrān. They're envious, krūra. "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." They have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue, "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue.
Guest (7): Because they're ignorant.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest (7): Because they're ignorant.
Prabhupāda: No ignorant. Purposefully.
Guest (7): Purposeful, knowing that, knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it...
Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least... The every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad-gītā... Everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being..., that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But he is nityo nityānām. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas. And they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are, they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that "God is impersonal, and, everyone can become God, or everyone is God." This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions. They say that "You can create your God. You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me... He was supporting Rama-Krishna Mission. He said, "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God."
Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God." They have accepted it. Just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it without any argument.
Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said,
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
- kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann
- asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
- kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
- mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
- (SB 12.3.51)
They'll not take to it. So they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune, they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha... (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa. So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya." Faith, this is faith. When one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś..., and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya: "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā, with this faith one has to begin. Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with a devotee. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā. Then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ. Then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ. Then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. Then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet... These are the different stages of sādhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress. So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva... Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan, that "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress. Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta... "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principles of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning, if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning ABCD. What...?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith. But that is required.