So this sort of lamentation is never done by a learned man. A learned man never does it." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). "Those who are learned, one who is learned, he does not lament over the body, either a living body or dead body. There is no question of..." Now, because one who knows the distinction between the body and the soul, firmly con... Just like you have heard the name of Socrates. Soc..., a great philosopher, Greek philosopher. He believed in the immortality of soul. So he was punished in the court. Hemlock. Hemlock was offered to him, that "All right, if you believe the immortality of soul, then you drink this hemlock poison." So he drunk because he was firmly convinced that "Even if I drink this poison... My body will be destroyed, but by destruction of my body, I am not going to be destroyed." He was convinced. So he did not lament. So a paṇḍita, learned man, must know that this body and soul, the distinction, the difference between body and soul... The body is not soul, and the soul is not body, and one who knows, he is learned man.
Socrates
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
Similarly, as soon as we come to the spiritual understanding of our existence, then our life will be joyful. That is a sign. Whether a man is freed from this material existence, mukti... Mukti can be achieved even in this life. Mukti. Mukti. It is, it is, it is a question of conviction. Now we are convinced firmly that "I am this material body. And as soon as... I gave you the other day the example of Socrates. He was convinced that "I am not this body." So he was offered poison. He gladly took it, that "What is that? I shall take it!" Because he was mukta-puruṣa. It is... He is liberated soul. "Never mind. You want to kill me. Kill me. I don't mind. All right." So this liberation. This is liberation.
Bhaya means fear, being afraid of. Now suppose somebody says: "Oh, I shall kill you! I shall kill you!" Somebody becomes very much afraid. But a person who is situated in pure consciousness, he's not afraid. We have got very practical example in the life of a great philosopher, Greek philosopher, Socrates. He believed in the immortality of the soul, and he was offered hemlock, poison, that "If you believe in immortality, immortality of the soul, then you drink this poison." "Yes, I shall drink it." So he drunk it, and he, his body, of course, stopped functioning because poison will act. But he was not afraid of drinking poison because he, he was completely situated in that platform. So there is no fear. So long bodily conception of life is there, oh, fearfulness will be always there in proportionately. As much I get rid of this bodily conception of life, then my fearfulness also decreases. And so long I am absorbed in bodily conception of life, my fearfulness is greater.
A person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he doesn't care for all this material distress or insult or honor, because he is aloof from this. He doesn't... He knows very well that "This designation, this honor, or this insult, they are pertaining to my body, but I am not this body." Just like Socrates. Socrates was condemned to death because he believed in the..., an immortality of the soul. So he was condemned to death, and he was asked to take hemlock or something like that, poison. And the judge wanted: "Well, Socrates, how do you want to be put into the grave?" He replied, "First of all, you catch me. Then you put me into the grave. (laughter) You are dealing with my body, nonsense. I am out of this. So you kill me or you put me into the grave or whatever you like, I don't mind. First of all, you catch me. Then you put me into the grave."
In the Western countries there is only one philosopher, Socrates. He was condemned to death because he was speaking that "I am soul. I am eternal." That was his fault. So the judges enquired, "Mr. Socrates, now you are going to die, so what kind of grave you want?" So Socrates replied, "First of all capture me. Then you put me into the grave." That is the fact. "You rascal, you are talking of my this body. So body is already material. You put it in the grave or in the hell. It doesn't matter. But I am eternal. You cannot capture me." So this is knowledge.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
Philosophy, poetry, imagination, the mind mental... As we see that mostly your Western philosophers, they are stuck up on the platform of mind. That's all. They're thinking this is the final. So far I've studied only Socrates. He has reached up to the point of soul. Otherwise, all Western philosophers, they're on the mental platform.
General Lectures
The dog thinks that "I am this body"; the cat thinks, "I am this body." But if a human being thinks that "I am this body," then what is the difference between cats and dogs? Human being must try to understand, "What I am?" This is called knowledge. And when he comes to the understanding ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul, oh, I am spirit soul..." Just like Socrates, he realized. When he was asked by the judge, "Mr. Socrates, how you want to be entombed?" he answered, "First of all, capture me; then you entomb me. You are seeing my body. You have no vision that I am soul." This is right vision.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: But his idea is to find or to utilize those principles of life which give qualitatively and quantitatively the most pleasure to the most people. That means, he says, by quality he means... Like, for instance, he makes the statement, "It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. It is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied."
Prabhupāda: But how many Socrates will you find? Then again he comes to the minimum. You cannot find Socrates on the street, loitering.
Śyāmasundara: But he says that that standard of pleasure...
Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of maximum men? A Socrates you will find in millions, one.
Śyāmasundara: But he says that that standard of pleasure that Socrates...
Prabhupāda: Then there is no question of maximum people. The number of Socrates is not maximum. That is minimum. That is minimum. If you come to the question of quality, the quality philosophy, quality understanding, that is for the minimum. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of millions and millions of persons, one person is trying to become perfect." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid vetthi māṁ tattvataḥ: (BG 7.3) "Out of millions of such perfect men, one may understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." That is not quantity, that is quality. That is quality.
Prabhupāda: Dissatisfaction is a good thing if it is for better advancement. That is wanted. Dissatisfaction. Just like the karmīs, they are also dissatisfied with 100,000 of dollars. That means they want to make one million thousands of dollars. So that kind of dissatisfaction for the karmī is good, because he can increase further assets. Similarly, if I am dissatisfied spiritually or I am not making advance, I am still on the material platform. That is good. That dissatisfaction is... Socrates also. Yes. And ass, cats, dogs, they are satisfied with a morsel of grass, that's all. You see? A little stool, what is the value of that satisfaction? What is the value of that? That is our philosophy.
Hayagrīva: According to Socrates, the pursuit of man is the seeking of this absolute good. Basically Socrates is an impersonalist because he does not ultimately define this absolute good as a person, nor does he give the absolute good a personal name. He just calls it "the good."
Prabhupāda: That is preliminary stage of understanding the Absolute. Because the..., the beginning, Brahman realization, impersonal, and then further advanced Paramātmā realization, localized, God is everywhere. And God is everywhere, that's a fact. That is God. But He has got His place, abode. That is God, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhuto (Bs. 5.37), that God is Person, He has His own abode, He has his own associates and everything. Difference is that although He is in His abode, He is present everywhere, even within the atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). So Socrates or any other philosopher, they cannot understand the potency of God, how He can remain in His own place, simultaneously in every atom. That is the conception of God. So everywhere He is staying. Everything is His expansion, His energy, the bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). The material world is bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ-land, water, earth, air. So these are different expansion of God's energy. So He can be present everywhere because His energy is expanded everywhere. So energy and the energetic, they are not different, but at the same time energy is not the energetic. This simultaneously one and different, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, this is perfect philosophy.
Prabhupāda: The perfection of yoga means to see God within himself. That is perfection of yoga. So this process, as Socrates used to give chance to his disciple, that is good process, to give him chance to develop his understanding. The teacher helps. Just like the father and mother give the child. First of all he helps, taking his hand, "Now walk, walk," and sometimes he gives him pleasure: "Now you walk. Let me see how you walk. Now you walk." Although he sometimes falls down, but a father will encourage, "Oh, you are very nice. Stand up, stand up again. Walk." So give chance to the disciple how they can think properly to go back to home, back to Godhead, teacher is giving instruction and tries to see how he has developed. So that process is natural. And another process is that suppose a man comes to argue, so you should give him first chance, "All right, you say what is the import of these verses." Then he can understand his position, where he is. Then he captures him. Because an expert, he knows how to capture the fool. So let the fool first of all go on, talk all nonsense, then he'll understand where he is and he will capture. That is also a process.
Prabhupāda: If we hear Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā regularly, then we become free from the effects of the modes of ignorance and passion, gradually, although it takes... But it is sure. The more you hear about Kṛṣṇa, or—Kṛṣṇa means His instruction or about Him, what He is—the more you become purified. So that is the test, that how one has become purified means one is purified from the base quality of passion and ignorance, means that he is no more attacked by greediness and passion. That is the test. That means he is free from the base qualities, and he is situated, ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. When he is no more disturbed by these base qualities of passion and greediness, then he is happy. Then he becomes happy. Ceta etair anāvi..., sthitasya, that is goodness. That is goodness. Then he is happy, happiness, that the ultimate stage of goodness is brahma-bhūtaḥ, to realize himself, realize God. So goodness, one must come to the platform of goodness. So we are therefore asking people to give up these base qualitative activities—illicit sex and meat-eating and drinking or intoxication and gambling. These are base qualities. So anyone gives up these qualities, he remains in the sattva-guṇa. And then if he is promoted farther, just like Socrates said that goodness is not all, that still you have to..., and that is bhakti. Then his realization is perfect. He becomes liberated, and then gradually he develops love of God, then he is in the original state. Bhaktir hitvā anyathā. As mukti, liberation, means that to be free from this all nonsense engagements. Nitya-baddha, they are engaged, all these karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they are simply engaged in some false engagements to become happy. So when one is free from these false engagements, then he is in the liberated state. Mukti means muktir hitvā anyathā rūpam. Anyathā rūpam means he is acting otherwise. So one has to come to the real position, not work, act otherwise. So he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. When he fully engage himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he is liberated, and if he keeps himself, then nobody can touch, the māyā cannot touch. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Māyā is very strong, but if one keeps in touch with Kṛṣṇa constantly, māyā has no jurisdiction. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. This is perfection of life.
Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of the additional notes on Socrates, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it was very, very nice.
Hayagrīva: And if new philosophers that we will present eventually, oh, um, I don't know if these were ever...
Prabhupāda: Actually the main philosophy is Socrates. He is (indistinct).
Hayagrīva: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, these have been done. Just a little, a few additions. But then there's Plotinus, Origen, and Augustine, and these were the three philosophers who shaped Christian thought or Catholic, the Church thought, Church fathers, and St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, Scotus and Eckhart, these are Christian...
Prabhupāda: So they are not philosopher; they are Christian with different point of views. So we are not going to discuss with a person he is from the stand..., deviating from the standard way and thinking in their mental speculation.
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: People may take or not take, but a God's servant must speak the truth. Just like Jesus Christ. He was crucified. Nobody took his words. But he did it. If people would have accepted his philosophy, then why he was crucified by the judges? It was done by the judges, Roman judges. So this is the position of the world. Socrates was killed because he said that there is soul. This is the defect of Western civilization.
Prabhupāda: The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting. Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent?
But in the Western countries this is the disease, vox populi. Socrates said there is soul, and he was killed because vox populi was against. Christ was killed because vox populi was against. This is the defect of the Western civilization.
Harikeśa: So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Because they are bewildered—they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered—they will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Harikeśa: Therefore we can make the devotees through this...?
Siddha-svarūpa: But they're bewildered already. They don't need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. (laughs)
Harikeśa: But they don't think they're bewildered, so that's the difference.
Siddha-svarūpa: Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they're bewildered. They may make the conclusion...
Harikeśa: No, they even admit they're bewildered.
Prabhupāda: The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, "Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?" So he answered, "First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave." (laughter)
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is in his name, Pasteur. He is a famous scientist. He was a chemist and biochemist, and he did this experiment in the 1860s. Now the flask... This experiment is called a "swan-neck" experiment because the shape of the neck of the flask looks like the neck of a swan. So it is the famous "swan-neck experiment." Now, at that time, it was quite amazing that even the so-called famous Greek philosophers like Aristotle, Plato and all these philosophers, even they believed that life actually comes from matter. They had all complete materialistic view of life, completely on the bodily concept. Now, at that time...
Prabhupāda: But Socrates did not believe like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Socrates also believed in material concept.
Rūpānuga: No, Socrates did not think he was the body.
Prabhupāda: He separated body from the soul.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Let them make advance in scientific research, but still they cannot capture the real thing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like I have heard it, when Socrates was condemned to death, the judges inquired that "How Mr. Socrates wants to be entombed?" When the judges inquired Socrates, "How you want to be entombed?" Socrates: "First of all capture me. Then to the question of entomb me." What he said?
Abhirāma: That is a historical fact.
Prabhupāda: No. What is the wording?
Abhirāma: He said, "First you'll have to catch me."
Bhāgavata: Until you have spoken about this, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda, no one really understood the deep meaning of what Socrates had said. It is by your grace that the light has been put on that, as to what is the deep meaning of what Socrates meant, that he was talking about the soul. Generally people cannot understand these things.
Correspondence
1947 to 1965 Correspondence
"So we search for new ways, new aspects of the truth more in harmony with our environment. And we question each other and debate and quarrel and evolve any number of 'isms' and philosophies. As in the days of Socrates, we live in an age of questioning, but the questioning is not confined to a city like Athens: it is worldwide".
Your article heading as "Let us be True to one another" published in the A.B. Patrika (Allahabad Edition) D/30.12.51 attracted my attention and I read it over and over again. This article contains the nucleus of future activities of the human society in the spiritual realm and I have read in your statement about your deep thought on the onward march of human civilization. You have rightly said the following words in this connection viz.
"So we search for new ways, new aspects of the truth more in harmony with our environment. And we question each other and debate and quarrel and evolve any number of 'isms' and philosophies. As in the days of Socrates, we live in an age of questioning, but the questioning is not confined to a city like Athens: it is worldwide".
There are two ways of answering such questions, I mean the deductive way and inductive way.
The Vedas, the Bible or the Koran would ask the human being to make proper use of his conserved energy in the transcendental service of God and unsophisticated men in the old days would follow such instruction unhesitatingly for realizing the Absolute Truth. Such temples, mosques were therefore centres of high culture to provide real food to human consciousness.
But in the present age in the absence of such high culture there is hardly any difference between the temples, mosques and cathedrals and the high commercial buildings in a busy city. If the culture is to be revived it is quite possible to do it even in your parliamentary buildings in New Delhi or in the commercial buildings of New York. As the Socratesian ways of reasoning is not bound up within the walls of Athens so also the Brahminical culture is not bound up within the walls of India.
One Brahmin-Gandhi Congressman is quite competent to guide its principle whereas thousand other sudra congressmen can only help it to break it up into pieces.
Thus if we want to approach the Absolute Truth by new ways in harmony with present environment we should try to be true to one another in the qualified way of Brahminical culture. Only a dozen of real qualified Brahmins from all parts of the world should combine to guide the principles of the Ksatriyas, the Vaisya and the Sudras all over the world. The Socratesian way of reasoning should be fully utilized because that makes the only difference between a human being and a beast. There is ample scope for this new way of approaching the Absolute Truth and that will only solve the acute distressing world problem. If there is scarcity of such qualified Brahmins which I honestly think there is, we should combine to evolve such Brahminical culture not by blind faith but by sound reasoning and questioning.
1971 Correspondence
Yes, this program is very nice to try to attract the attention of the students seriously. That will be a great success. They should put intelligent questions and they should be answered properly with reference to modern science and philosophy. That will be very much convincing. I think if you read our books thoroughly you will get a supply of material to answer all the questions. Now I am preparing one book answering all types of philosophical arguments. Syamasundara. every morning is putting questions from different angles of vision beginning from Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc. and we are trying to answer. We shall discuss also Marx philosophy of communism. It will require some time but I wish that all our preachers should be well versed with all philosophical ideas and after studying all philosophical points of view we will put Krishna Conscious philosophy on the top.
I am very pleased that you have accepted the responsibility of managing such an important center as Berkeley. I know that there are many students in that city, so just attract them to our Krishna Consciousness Movement by giving them prasadam and our Krishna philosophy. We can challenge any nonsense philosophy. Socrates, Plato, Kant, Darwin—all of them—so many mental speculators and word jugglers who have misled so many people. Now it is your task to find them out and expose them, so that the people may appreciate the real philosophy.
| Page Title: | Socrates |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Priya |
| Created: | 16 of May, 2010 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=13, Con=5, Let=5 |
| No. of Quotes: | 23 |