Śyāmasundara: He says that the world can be made better by man's efforts, but that perfection is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes. In one sense it is all right, because this world is so made that you make it perfect today, again it deteriorates. Therefore in one sense we cannot make it perfect. That is a fact.
Śyāmasundara: But you can improve it?
Prabhupāda: Improve it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So it can be improved, in any bad condition, by... How you can improve? By this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As Kṛṣṇa says, "I am..." (break) Svarūpa means ādayaḥ. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same thing. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that means you are living with Kṛṣṇa. And if you are living with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear? Just like Arjuna, fighting with Kṛṣṇa, he had no fear. Similarly, if you live with Kṛṣṇa and go on with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear?
Śyāmasundara: What is that quote you said last night in the taxi, padma, padma...
Prabhupāda: Padaṁ padaṁ yat vipadāṁ na teṣām.
- samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ
- mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ
- bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ
- padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām
- (SB 10.14.58)
Śyāmasundara: And the purport?
Prabhupāda: And the purport is, one who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, for him, this ocean of nescience, bhavasamudra, because just like a small pit foot created by the cow's hoof.
Devotee: Footprint.
Prabhupāda: And this place wherein there is step by step danger, this is not God's place. That Kṛṣṇa also says. As soon as he understands Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He immediately becomes eligible to transfer to the spiritual world.
Śyāmasundara: So actually, we're removing people from danger, from evil, by making them Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Certainly.
Śyāmasundara: So this is a welfare activity.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is best welfare activity in the world. What others can do in comparison to this?
Śyāmasundara: They may be able to remove some of the temporary dangers...
Prabhupāda: Yes. To give some temporary benefit, but again he is fallen.
Śyāmasundara: Step by step there's danger. When we discussed the utilitarians...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) In Caitanya Mahāprabhu's address, namo mahā-vadānyāya. If I give some charity to a needy man, it will serve for a temporary period, but if you give him Kṛṣṇa-prema, then immediately he'll be transferred to the spiritual world.
- namo mahā-vadānyāya
- kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te
- kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-
- nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ
- (CC Madhya 19.53)
Mahā-vadānyāya. This is the most munificent path—to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa: "Whomever you meet, just deliver this message of Kṛṣṇa." That is best welfare activity in the world.
Śyāmasundara: When we were discussing the utilitarians, we discussed that their goal was to achieve what was desired by the people, to do whatever was required...
Prabhupāda: No. Desired by the people-happiness. But they are trying to give happiness temporary, and we are giving happiness direct. Just like Bhāgavata says, yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). Purify your existence, and you'll get perpetual, eternal happiness, bliss. So everyone is working hard for happiness, but how happiness can be attained in diseased condition? So cure the disease and he'll get it eternal. That is... Here is a physician. If you go when there is ailment, if you go to him, "Sir, cure me." "Why?" because it is impediment to happiness. Similarly, the real disease is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). You cure this, then you get real happiness.
Śyāmasundara: These utilitarians said that activity should be to achieve all that is desired by the people, but Dewey says that activity should be to achieve what is worthy to be desired.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First thing is, people are desiring happiness. Whatever one may desire, the ultimate end is happiness. Nobody can deny this. But a diseased fellow, if he thinks that "I am happy," that is false happiness. A diseased man cannot be happy unless the disease is cured. Sometimes we go to a diseased person and ask, "How are you?" "Yes, I am all right." If he is all right, why is he lying down? He is not all right. He is artificially saying that "I am all right." What is this "all right"? Similarly, these foolish people, they are thinking, "I am happy." What is their happiness? If you have to die, then where is your happiness? Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. A real intelligent person will see that these are the things which are giving me distress: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So where is the happiness? Foolishly if we accept something as happiness, that is not happiness. Real happiness is when you are free from these four principles of distress: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Otherwise, where is your happiness? But if you think that "Although I am dying, I am happy," that is another thing, a fool's paradise.
Śyāmasundara: He says that "Desirable courses of action must meet specifiable conditions which are subject to prediction, and they must be based on judgments of experience." In other words, the desirable courses of action should be chalked out by experience, and they must be predictable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Predictable. Just like we don't want death. So if I get the chance to come to a position not to die, is it not predictable? You don't want to die, and if I say, "You will come to this position, you will not die..."