Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation, Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmins in the Western countries. Yes.
Professor: I see. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra?
Prabhupāda: No.
Professor: No. Tell me why.
Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There is nothing such thing as janma.
Professor: Oh. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: And another place, Bhāgavatam, there is statement of Nārada, advising Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that yasya hi lakṣaṇaṁ sa varṇābhivyañjakam. There are symptoms, brāhmin system, satya śamo dama titikṣa ārjava (BG 18.42). It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ sa varṇābhivyañjakam, abhivyañjakaṁ varṇa. Yad hi lakṣaṇaṁ sa, tad yadi anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). This is the injunction of Nārada: "The symptoms, brahminical symptoms, if it is found in the person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmin.
And if the śūdra symptoms are visible in a person born in a brāhmin family, he should be accepted as śūdra." And in the Jābāla Upaniṣad, the Satyakāma Jābāla . . . so Satyakāma was born of a maidservant, but he wanted to become brāhmin. So he went to Gautama Muni: "Sir, make me your disciple." In those days, Vaidic brahminical culture, without becoming brāhmin, he cannot be initiated. Initiation means to make one brāhmin.
So, according to our Gosvāmī process, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has given us the book Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. In that book he has written,
- yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti'
- kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ
- tathā dvijatvaṁ jāyate . . .
- tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena'
- dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām
- (Hari-bhakti-vilāsa 2.12)
Nṛṇām: "Of all human beings, by initiation, he becomes a dvija." So we follow that principle. And besides that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered that bhārata-bhūmite . . . you understand little Bengali?
Professor: No, Bengali, no, I don't. But it doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). It is almost Sanskrit. "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in the land of Bhārata-varṣa," janma sārthaka kari, "making his life successful," kara para-upakāra. Para-upakāra. Para-upakāra means everyone is in slumber and considering himself that he is body, like cats and dogs. Therefore, they should be raised to the spiritual consciousness, that "You are not cats and dogs.
You are Brahman. Just realize ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This is para-upakāra. So we are doing that. We are awakening everyone. Uttiṣṭha jāgrata prāpta-varaṁ nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14): "You have got now human being form of life. Now get up and make your life successful by spiritual realization." This is our message. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. By spiritual realization everyone will become happy. Without spiritual realization, nobody can become happy. This is our mission.