Impersonalist: In realization there is that. In realization there is merging.
Prabhupāda: This realization... Now, there are five fingers-one, two, three, four, five. How they can merge into one?
Impersonalist: By realizing this.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Impersonalist: By realizing this.
Prabhupāda: No. These are five fingers-one, two, three, four, five. So these... There are different, five fingers. How they can merge into one? What is the process?
Impersonalist: The name of the process.
Upendra: The name of the process?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Name or not name, how these five fingers can become merged into one? Tell me. Just like here is thing. All the five fingers capture it; it becomes one. Although they are five-one, two, three, four, five—they are one.
Impersonalist: Becomes one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the interest is one—to capture this—then it is one. That means to... You cannot lose your individuality. But if your interest is one, then you merge into. Do you understand? Just like you are all Australian. Why you are all Australian? Or you are all individual. How you become all Australian, merge into the Australian conception? Because as Australian, you have one interest. So individuality cannot be killed. That is not possible. You are all individual. But when you make your interest one, then you merge into that thing. Each one of us, an individual person... What is your ideal, you all three? You are three persons. What is your philosophy, ideal? Vegetarian?
Impersonalist: Meditation and action.
Upendra: Meditation and action.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever you do, you do all together. That is merging. But you are all individual. Your personality is different from his. His personality different from him. He is from you. But because you have got one interest, therefore you one. Just like we. We are so many individuals. But our interest is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are one. Try to understand what is merging into one. You are all individual. Nobody can be... It is not something material. We are all spirit soul, so we are all individual. But if our interest becomes one, then we merge into one. This is oneness. Try to understand this oneness. Oneness does not mean void, no. Oneness means when our interest becomes one; that is oneness. Real oneness means to be interested in Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Other oneness will not stand. Just like you are now in one. As soon as your interest little becomes different, you become separated. So that is... There is quite possibility. Because you are all individual, there is quite possibility of disagreeing with another individual person. There is quite possibility. So oneness does not mean that you lose your individuality. Oneness means you keep your individuality, but you take the same interest. Then it is oneness. It is not possible that you lose your individuality. That is not possible. You are individual eternally. Do you understand this? You have got anything to say about this oneness? Do you differ? Just like the sunlight. The sunlight, physically, they are very small, shining, molecular, what is called?
Śyāmasundara: Particles?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Very small, atom-like. They are combined together. It looks that it is one, sunshine. But they are mixture of molecular parts, very small. They are all shining. This is scientific. But it looks one. Even water, that also, small molecular parts. Everything. This matter—a small molecular atom. So everything is combination of several molecular, atomic parts. That's all. You are also atomic spirit. So all the atomic spirit, when they are together, that is called brahmajyo... (loud noise) This... This cannot be stopped? This nonsense bombing?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is very much disturbing.
Impersonalist: Who is Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Now answer who is Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme individual, supreme person. And we all take our individual, our individualities, from Him. Just like the gold ring that you are wearing, perhaps, takes its individual existence from the mine of gold. It's a very small particle of the mine, and you can't say that it is not the same as the mine. It is the same as the mine 'cause it is gold. But it is very tiny, molecular, atomic. Whereas the mine of gold is, for practical purposes, unlimited, and...
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Come on.
Śyāmasundara: ...the whole. So Kṛṣṇa, He is the source of our individual nature also. We are... We exist as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Because He has personality, we have personality. Just like you have a piece of gold. The ring has a certain color and weight and characteristics of gold, the metal. You find the same qualities in the mine. So we have the same qualities as Kṛṣṇa has because He..., we are parts and parcels of Him.
Impersonalist: Then is it necessary to see Kṛṣṇa in the form that is depicted in the pictures, or can one see Kṛṣṇa in other forms?
Śyāmasundara: Yes, one can see Kṛṣṇa on three different levels of realization. The one level is this impersonal brahma-jyotir-merging level. That is called the elementary step, the first step towards God realization. And then the second step is when one realizes that God is isolated or localized within his heart, and this is the stage the great yogis and mystics attain. They are able to control their travel and attain other certain mystic powers. And then the highest step of self-realization is when one realizes God is the supreme person and meets Him face to face and spends his eternal life in the association of God in a personal relationship. There are five different kinds of personal relationships one can have with God: as His friend, as His father or His parent, or as His servant, like that, or as His lover. So if one, if one comes to this stage of realization, that "I am part and parcel of God," that "God is a person; therefore I am a person, and I remain person eternally," then he gets fixed up in his final, original, constitutional position, relationship, and there is no more higher place to go. So... And in this relationship, he understands that "Because God is very great and I am very small, then my position is to serve God." So I engage in a personal serving relationship, with a personal serving mode. In this way I'm always satisfied. I'm always relating with God, in everything I do, serving Him with everything I have. And this is where the spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa because he engages us in serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like there may be some big man and you want to enter into his service and meet this big man, but you have no qualification. But if this big man has a friend who is also your friend, this friend can introduce you and engage you somehow in this big man's service. This is the duty of the spiritual master. He accepts a disciple to make sure and guarantee that that disciple will meet God face to face, if he follows his orders.
Prabhupāda: Now answer, question, try to understand. What he has explained, have you understood?
Impersonalist: I think so.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is also individual, you are also individual, but He is the head. Just like in our group we are all individual, but I am the head, similarly, there are innumerable individual souls, all over the universe, and the head individual soul is Kṛṣṇa.
Impersonalist: Can Kṛṣṇa be called by any other name?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means... Kṛṣṇa's name is given according to His office. Just like a person at home, he is "father," and in the court he is "my lord," the same man. Same man, high-court judge, his wife is calling him by name, "John." His son is calling the same man, "father." His brother is calling the same man, "brother." And the same man, when he goes to the court, he is called "my lord." So these names are in connection with his service. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So He can have many millions of names. Because He is unlimited, He has got unlimited business also. So He can be called according to that name, according to that business. But this name, Kṛṣṇa, is the best because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive.