Prabhupāda: That we say, that this material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. This is reflection.
Śyāmasundara: They say an "image", everything is an image.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we say that, that the same example, just like mirage. Mirage, there is no water but we see a vast sea, or big river is flowing. It is like that. Actually there is no river. No. This is going. This material world is like that. Just Śrīdhara Swami (said that) due to the factual position of the spiritual world, this illusory world appears to be true. Because there is real table.
Prabhupāda: The table concept.
Prabhupāda: Because there is a real table, therefore I am considering this table. This is not table, this is wood. Somebody (may say), "This is not wood, but it was tree." All right, it is tree. Then what? It is not tree, it is seed. All right it is seed. No, it is not seed, it (indistinct) You see. Therefore it is perverted reflection. But there is a real table.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: There is a real table. Therefore the whole material creation is a perverted reflection and people are enamored by it. People are taking, "This is real table. This is real body. This is real happiness. This is real country. This is real society."
Śyāmasundara: This is what Hegel says, that this is the real table, that these are real objects. They are not images of the real but they are themselves real. There's where...
Prabhupāda: Then he has not the idea what is real. What do you mean by real?
Śyāmasundara: This is a real fact, this table, that this is spirit itself.
Prabhupāda: This is not real fact. This is imitation of the real table. It is fact to a person who has no knowledge of the real. Because it will not exist; that, our reality means which will exist. Otherwise it is not reality.
Śyāmasundara: So this may be real for some time and then...
Prabhupāda: It is temporary, temporary. It is not real. It is some temporary manifestation. The same example, like dreaming; dreaming is not real but temporary hallucination, that's all. You cannot say this "dream-real". This word is used, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Just like dream, it is very nice example. In dream everything appears to be real but it is not real, it is all false or temporary.
Śyāmasundara: So what I want to clarify is that you say...
Prabhupāda: He wants to say something.
Devotee: So actually we say there's a difference between reality and existing, even though it exists doesn't mean that it's real.
Prabhupāda: No, real means which exists eternally, that is real.
Devotee: But this exists only temporarily therefore it can't be classified as reality.
Prabhupāda: No, temporary, illusion we'll call it, reality means which exists eternally.
Devotee: That's the table on the spiritual platform.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There, Kṛṣṇa's abode, Kṛṣṇa's house, Kṛṣṇa's table, chair, furniture, they're all existing, ever-existing. Here they will not exist.
Śyāmasundara: So what is the distinction then between saying that spirit expresses itself in this object or the spirit is this object.
Prabhupāda: It is the expression of the energy of spirit. Everything is energy. Whatever is manifested, that is the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Thus one energy manifestation is eternal and another energy manifestation is temporary. Which is temporary manifestation, that is material, and which is eternal manifestation, that is spiritual.
Śyāmasundara: So you could say both, you could say this is made of spirit.Prabhupāda: Yes, originally it is made of spirit in this sense, that Kṛṣṇa is whole spirit, and because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, so factually it is Kṛṣṇa.