One can understand. Why I take so much responsibility of family? I was alone. Why I get married? Why I beget children? Why I make friends? Because I want to enjoy. So Kṛṣṇa is also a person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He has produced so many children, these living entities. Why? To enjoy along with them. Just try to understand the psychology. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jayante, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Where this idea came from, that "I shall be happy within society, friendship and love, children?" Wherefrom this idea came? Where is the origin? The origin is there in Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Janmādy asya yataḥ. The origin of love. Just like Kṛṣṇa is loving Rādhārāṇī. So the loving idea came from Kṛṣṇa. Anything that is within our experience, that is in Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa cannot be impersonal. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa is exactly a person like me, you. But the difference is that He's very, very, unlimitedly powerful. I am limited.
Psychology (Lectures, Philosophy Discussions)
Expressions researched:
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Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
I came here to fight for some useful purpose, but now I see that viparītāni, just opposite. It will be useless." Why useless? Because one tries to become rich man, opulent—this is material nature—just to show to his relatives, to his friends, to his family members, "Just see how I have become rich, opulent." This is the psychology. A man works very hard day and night to become rich just to make a show that "My dear friends, my dear relatives, you see that how I have become now rich." This is the only purpose. Nobody is working hard for serving Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness means, the same hardship we shall take, but take for Kṛṣṇa. Just like our Mrs. Sharma. She was working in the family, but now she has come to work for Kṛṣṇa. And this is salvation. This is mukti. Not that we have to stop our working capacity. Simply we have to change the position. In the family life we work uselessly for so-called relatives, but the same labor, when we employ for the service of Kṛṣṇa, every inch of it is utilized.
I came here to fight, to get happiness, and I have to kill my own kinsmen. Then where is my happiness? I cannot enjoy the property or the kingdom alone. There must be relatives, brothers. I will be very proud: 'Just see how I have become king.' So if they are dying, then who, whom I shall show my opulence?" This is the psychology. Nimittāni ca viparītāni paśyāmi. Just the opposite. This is illusion. This is illusion.
There is no happiness actually, expanding selfishness. Just like a national leader like Mahatma Gandhi in our country. He planned that "Let the Britishers go away. My countrymen will be happy. My countrymen will be happy." But when the Britishers went away, giving the responsibility of Indian empire to the Indian people, Gandhi was thinking in the morning, "Oh, I am so unhappy. Now only death will please me." And the next, the same evening, he was killed. He was so unhappy. Because everything was topsy-turvied. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. Now the country was divided. The Muslims became separated. The whole program was changed.
If you become servant of somebody, if he says that "You have to do it," your conscience does not allow you to do it. Still, you have to do it. Still, you have to do it. A man is stealing for family. He does not like to steal. Still, he is in need of money; he has to steal. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ. This is study, study the psychological condition. When I become servant of māyā, even I do not wish to do something which is not very good, still I am obliged to do it. But the result is that nobody is satisfied. The same example. Just like Gandhi served his country so much, so nicely, so voluntarily. Still, the result was he was killed by his countryman. Just see. Result was, the reward was that he served his country so much. It is undoubtedly, nobody can serve so sincerely. Everybody knows. But the result was even a person like Mahatma Gandhi was killed by his countrymen. Just this morning Mrs. Sharma was telling that she has worked so much for the family, but still, the sons and daughters, they want, "No, no, you cannot go. You serve us, serve us.
When one is given some responsible post... Some... I know some English firm in India, I had some connection with him. So he was simply trying to know, "The man who is going to work for us, whether he is family man?" Because unless he is a family man, he has no attraction. He can give up the job at any moment. Because there is no family attraction. This is the psychology. Therefore according to Vedic civilization, it is the duty of the parents to get the sons and daughters married so that they will have family attraction, they will be established, they will be organized, things will go nicely. If there is no family attraction, no responsibility, then the things will not go nicely. This is the basic principle.
So anyway, the family attraction is required for regulated life. If there is no family attraction, there is no regulated life. We have got very good experience of these things. So family attraction required. It is not that it is rejected. It is required for regulated life. Unregulated life cannot make any progress.
Then the grocer heard the whole story and his mind became changed. "Oh, such a chaste woman. Such a faithful... You are my mother. You take more ingredients, grains, as much as you like, you shall..."
So there are still. That is not very long ago. So this was the training. And the psychology is that woman, the first man she meets and if she is kept carefully, she becomes staunch lover. This is psychology. There is good psychology in maintaining the society. Therefore a woman, especially in India, especially in Bengal, before attaining puberty, she was married. Not to meet the husband unless she attains puberty. But she remained at father's house, but she must know that: "I am married. I have got husband." This psychology. Then she becomes very chaste. Because she thinks of her husband, and becomes more and more devoted. So this arrangement that woman must be married before puberty... Or even after puberty, she must get a husband. So if this dharma... It is called kanyā-dāya, kanyā-dāya. Kanyā-dāya means it is very obligatory that the father must get the daughter married.
So this is Vedic culture. Woman should not be allowed to mix with man. Not allowed. In Japan also, the same system. Before marriage, they can mix. But after marriage they cannot mix. In Japan also I have seen. But in India still the system is there. Woman, without husband, cannot talk with any man. That is also psychological. In the Bhāgavata it is stated that man is like ghee, butterpot, and woman is like fire. Therefore, as they, as soon as there is fire and butter pot, the butter pot must melt. Therefore they should be kept aside. These are the statements. And the śāstra says that in a solitary place you should not remain even with your daughter, even with your sister, even with your mother.
Psychic phenomena is the subtle materialism. There are two material conditions: one gross condition, one subtle condition. Gross condition is created by the five elements—earth, water, fire, air, and ether. And the subtle elements are mind, intelligence and ego, false ego. So all these eight elements, they are material. One section is gross, and another section is subtle. So the psychology means the subtle material elements. It is material; it is not spiritual. It is subtle.
Therefore, the so-called modern scientific world advanced, they do not know what is the actual living force within this body which is moving this body. So long the soul or the living force is within this body, it is moving. As soon as the spirit soul is out of the body, it is..., we call it is dead. So we have got medical science for this body, we have got psychology for the mind, everything we've got, but where is the science of the soul, which is moving the body and the mind? Where is that science? Is there any such science? You are all students, I think. To understand what is the basic principle of moving this body and the mind, is there any department of knowledge in the universities all over the world to understand this science? Is there any? Then where is your knowledge? Somebody is accepting the mind as the self, and somebody is accepting the, this gross body as the self. They do not know that both the body and the mind, both of them are material. And the force or the entity which is moving this body and mind, that is spirit. So they have no knowledge.
Naturally we desire that "If I get some permanent apartment, it is very good." Actually we want that. Nobody wants to die. Even a person or living being in the most wretched condition of life, if you propose that "Let me kill you," he'll not agree. Therefore the psychology is that every living being does not want to die. So, but actually we are not subject to death or birth. That will be discussed. We have somehow or other, by chance or by coincidence, we have acquired this material body. Actually it is not by chance, but we wanted to lord it over the material world, therefore we have got this material body.
We must minimize. Just like a diseased man is given some liquid food. He is forbidden... He is forbidden to take any food because any food will aggravate his disease, but still, because he has to exist, he is given some glucose water, some barley water, some fruit juice, little. Just... It is also psychological. The patient may think also that "I am eating something. I am eating, not I am starving. I am eating." That is also psychological effect. At the same time, this light food, fruit juice or glucose water, that is easily digested, so there is no harm.
Similarly, we have to... Our, the present life is diseased condition, so if we want to cure this disease of repeated birth and death, then we have to restrict, restrict our bodily enjoyment, because we cannot enjoy. It is simply so-called enjoyment. Actually, we cannot enjoy this diseased condition of this body. Enjoyment, real enjoyment means that is nonstopping, nonstop.
Those who are ordinary persons, without any knowledge, they are acting, whole day and night to satisfy the senses. That's all. This is ordinary life. Mostly people are working for that purpose, mostly. And above them, above them, if somebody is intelligent, he's working on the mind—philosophy, poetry, nice idea in novel, nice idea in drama, some psychological..., all these things. So they are little better than those who are working day and night hard for sense gratification. They are little... These philosophers, the poets and the thinkers, they're little more better. So indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). So manasas tu parā buddhiḥ. And above them, those who are acting very intelligent, intelligently, on the laws of the nature, say, for the scientist or like that... Manasas tu parā buddhiḥ. And that stage, that scientific stage, that scientific calculation, is the stage of this appreciation of consciousness. The perfection of scientific life... Science, science, scientists are making research "What is the truth beyond this? Beyond this? Beyond this?"
Our position is, we are constituted of this body. Body means the senses and the controller of the senses or the, what is called, driver, driver of the senses, is the mind. And mind is conducted, thinking, feeling, and willing, the psychology, the science of psychology, that is being conducted under intelligence. And above the intelligence, I am sitting. I am a spirit soul. So how we become victim of this māyā, that is described here, that from anger, delusion arises, and from delusion, bewilderment of memory. Bewilderment memory. I have forgotten completely that I am not this body, I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi; I am part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman, spirit, absolute whole. That I have forgotten. And when memory is bewildered, and as soon as I forget that I am spirit soul, I identify myself with this material world, illusion. Intelligence is lost.
I was student of psychology. Our professor, Dr. Urquhart said that the brain, the biggest brain is, by practical psychology it has been tested, sixty-four ounce. And that is the highest brain substance. But for woman it is never more than thirty-six ounce. So they have tested all these practical psychologies.
So here the same word is used, that alpa-medhasa. It is very technical. Alpa means "very little" brain substance. Those who have got very little brain substance, they try like this. Kāṅkṣantaḥ karmaṇāṁ siddhiṁ yajanta iha devatāḥ. "Why little brain substance? He's getting profit from the demigods." Then brain substance little means he does not know what is his actual aim of life. He does not know.
Educational institution, there should be, but the education.... Just like in a university, they have different departments: medical department, engineering department, or biological and so many, psychological, chemical, physical.... They have so many departments. But there is no department, brahminical, kshatriyacal, or vaiśya, nothing. Because they do not know what is the aim of life. They are simply interested with the bodily comforts of life. That's all. Never mind what is our next life, What kind of life we are going to. But that is, this is a fact.
Therefore we have to study Bhagavad-gītā very seriously. In the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā it is said by Kṛṣṇa, tathā dehāntara-prāptir. There is dehāntara. After leaving this body, I have to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīraḥ means those who are sober, intelligent, they know that what is death.
There is one Mr. Marshall, economist. Marshall's economics we read in our economic class. He said that "Family affection is the impetus for economic development." He said that. That is fact. Therefore, according to Vedic system, a boy is married with a girl, and the husband and wife, as soon as... This is psychological. As soon as they become husband and wife... Because the boy is searching after woman, and the girl is also searching after man. So they must be given. This is psychology. There is no question of so-called love. The, the former system of marriage, the father and mother selects one boy and one girl, and by force they are married. But the economic position becomes very nice. Family affection.
That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ (SB 5.5.8). These are very psychological.
These are very psychological. A married man becomes responsible. Because there is affection, family affection. And one who is not married, he's irresponsible. Because there is no family affection. That is the basic defect of the present society. There is no family affection. They are all irresponsible.
So this psychology's there, lusty desire. That is the basic principle of material life. So when one becomes free from this lusty desire, kāma-saṅkalpa-varjitāḥ, that is spiritual life. That is spiritual life. Very simple thing. The material life means the basic principle is lusty desire. Everyone is working so hard because the basic principle is lusty desire. "I shall enjoy like this. My wife shall enjoy. My children shall enjoy. My grandchildren shall enjoy. My countrymen will enjoy. My society will enjoy." This is the basic principle of whole modern civilization—expanding the selfish interest. Selfish interest means "my sense gratification." And expand more, "My family's sense gratification." Expand it more: "My society's, my nation's..." This way.
Because you are hankering to love the Supreme, but because you have no information of the Supreme, you are placing your love to your body, your society, your country, your family, or if you haven't got anything to love, then you get a dog, cat, and you love it. The loving propensity is there. This is the psychology. Now that loving propensity can attain its perfection, and as soon as you reach that perfectional point, you become happy. This is the formula for happiness. Everyone is trying to become happy, peaceful. That peacefulness, that happiness can be attained only when you increase your attachment or love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are not teaching any kind of faith. There are many different types of faith, so, but unfortunately, maybe due to the slackness of this movement or religious movement, people have lost all faith in religious movement. Maybe there are many reasons.
So these are eight: earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence and "I" consciousness. These are material eight elements. Mind is also material. Intelligence also material. So there is cultivation of knowledge of the gross material. Just like soil expert, there are, trying to understand the earth, where there is mine, where there is something, something. That is analyzing the earth. Similarly, somebody is studying the light or the air—they are all material things. There is no spiritual understanding. So bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ manaḥ. Mind... Psychologists, they are also studying the mind, the activities, thinking, feeling and willing, and their varieties. That is also material. And ethereal understanding.
We materialistic persons, materialist scientists, they can study all these material elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ kham... And then, little higher than that, material scientists, there are psychologists or philosophers. They study mano buddhir ahaṅkāra, thinking, feeling, willing—different stages of the mind. But Kṛṣṇa says that itīyaṁ me bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā, "These eight kinds of material elements, they are separated energy from Me." Separated energy, you can understand very easily. Just like I am speaking and it is being recorded in the tape recorder. When the tape recorder is replayed again, you'll find that I am speaking again. But that speaking and my present speaking is different. Therefore that speaking is separated energy. Now I am speaking directly. That is not separated. But when it is transferred to another matter, that is separated energy.
Eating flesh, fish, eggs, these are called āmiṣa. And madya means wine, liquor. So all the conditioned souls, they have got a natural inclination for sex life, intoxication, and eating fish, eat... They have got a natural inclination. Even ants, they have got all these inclinations. Expert psychologists and medical men, they have studied that even the ant, it has got also the same propensities. Loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā. So when there is legalized, or marriage under religious principle, it is to be understood a sort of concession.
In the Purāṇas... There are tāmasika-purāṇas where it is recommended that if you want to eat flesh, then you can get a goat and sacrifice before Goddess Kālī and you can eat that. The purpose is that if a conditioned soul has got the natural tendencies, then why they are mentioned in the śāstras? The idea is... Just like Lord Buddha. Lord Buddha, his mission was to stop animal killing. Ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ.
So this is characteristic. If the finger... I order, "Please pick up this rasagullā." "Yes." "Give it here." "Yes." The finger cannot eat. Just try to understand. The finger, if he gets one rasagullā, nice, tasteful sweetmeat, the finger will never try to smash it and spoil it. (laughter) The fingers immediately will take. You'll find. It is psychology, even for a child. The child captures with the finger some nice sweetmeats and immediately puts in... Why? The child could smash it and taste this rasagullā. That is not possible. Study nature. You take the very nice sweet, but you cannot. The fingers cannot spoil it. The process is that by nature the child knows that "If I put into the mouth, it goes to the stomach, and if it is digested, these fingers will be healthy, the eyes will be healthy, the leg will be healthy, hands will be healthy, every—all parts of the body will be healthy." This is natural.
Prabhupāda: What is that? (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, when someone is having some kind of mental problem the psychiatrist analyzes it from the medical viewpoint, sometimes from the psychological viewpoint.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Psychiatrist.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: This is an expansion of the energy known as mind. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca. These are subtle matter. So different division. God's creation is wonderful that even if you take the atom, there are so many things. That is... Scientists are... So what to speak of mind, thinking, feeling, willing, and there are so many divisions. So what is your question about the psychiatrist?
The other day I was seeing the New York Times magazine. So all advertisements were based on mating. That's all. So because mating is most attractive, therefore the shopkeepers, they advertise their dress, putting before one very nice girl. Because our attraction is for mating, so as soon as we see a nice girl our attention is diverted immediately. That is the psychology. So these are all material enjoyments: eating, sleeping, defending and mating.
And spiritual enjoyment is just opposite. There is no sense enjoyment. There is self-realization, or purifying the senses. Spiritual enjoyment means purifying the senses. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). It is a purificatory process. And as soon as you purify your senses, then you become in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become eligible for being transferred to the spiritual world.
So this human form of life is specially meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge. Because in any other form of life.
So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people to become submissive to the authority. That is the beginning of knowledge. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). If you want to learn the transcendental subject matter which is beyond the scope of your thinking, feeling and willing... Mental speculation means thinking, feeling and willing, psychology. But subject matter which is beyond your thinking. So God or anything about God is beyond the limit of our thinking, speculation. Therefore, we have to learn it submissively. Tad viddhi praṇipātena, praṇipāta means submission. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipāta. Nipāta means submission. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena. First of all find out somebody where you can fully surrender. Then you enquire about transcendental subject matter.
The eight million four hundred thousand bodies means, at least, we have got eight million four hundred thousand different types of desires. That we have to learn from authorities like Kṛṣṇa.
Therefore He says, tat samāsena me śṛṇu: "You try to understand." You cannot speculate. Is there any psychologist who can say that how many different types of thinking, feeling, willings are there? No, they cannot say. But we must know from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that these eight million four hundred thousand species or forms of life are there because there are eight million four hundred thousand different types of desires, exactly eight million four hundred thousand.
This is called Vedic knowledge. Exactly what is the fact, that is stated there. So our process of understanding, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—we do not hear from any bogus person. We hear from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says for us, those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, tat samāsena me śṛṇu: "From Me because I am the supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: (BG 7.7)
So we may be very proud of advancement of knowledge, but actually we are not yet advanced, so far material science is concerned, to understand the basic principle of the moving force which is moving this body, the... On account of the presence of the soul, we have got so much intelligence, we have got so much thoughtful, psychological effect. So many things wonderful they are. But as soon as the soul is not there, everything collapses. So the Buddhist theory that the intelligence or consciousness takes place at a certain point of material mixture... But that may be an argument, but actually it is not a fact. Any amount of material mixture, you cannot produce soul. They have produced so many things by material mixture, but nobody has produced. In India, of course, we heard so many news that "In America they have produced life in chemical laboratory." And sometimes they say, "In Russia they are trying." But this is not possible. Nobody has found. And greatest scientists, they have admitted that the problem of life is beyond the scope of material science.
And abhayam. Abhayam means fearlessness. So long we are in this body, material body, there are four principles, out of which one is bhayam, fearfulness, "What will happen? What will happen?" Because I am eternal, na hanyate śarīre, but my body is to be annihilated, but because I am... This is the psychology. Because I am eternal, I do not want my body be annihilated. But it will be. Therefore I am always fearful, "When it will be annihilated? When it will be annihilated? Is the time come? Is the time come?" This is called bhayam. Bhayaṁ dvitīyābhinniveṣataḥ syāt. Because I am identifying with this body, therefore there is fearfulness. And if by knowledge I can understand that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi, and if you are actually convinced, then there is no fearfulness. In the Western countries there is only one philosopher, Socrates. He was condemned to death because he was speaking that "I am soul. I am eternal." That was his fault. So the judges enquired, "Mr. Socrates, now you are going to die, so what kind of grave you want?"
Then Kṛṣṇa says, that how the brahminical class should be educated. This should be taken very seriously by educational department of all countries. And it is the duty of the government to see that every man according to his quality is working, is employed. Not that... Secular state does not mean they should be callous about the quality and work of the citizens. There must be department of practical psychology to see the students, in which class he belongs to. Either he belongs to the first-class, brāhmaṇa class, or second-class, the kṣatriya class, administrator class, and the third-class, mercantile, or business man, and the fourth-class, śūdras, worker. If education is given according to the quality and position, then there will be complete system in the whole human society. Take the same example. Just like your body, if your head is working nicely, if your hand is working nicely, if your stomach is working nicely, if your leg is working nicely, then the whole body is to be considered as healthy and working nicely. If any part of this body, either head, leg, or arms or belly, does not work nicely, then the whole body becomes diseased. So that is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā.
Guest (1) (Indian man): Some of the latest findings of the psychologists says that when child grows and becomes a man, his ego also develops and it also becomes a man. Now, if the, if it is all the ego and his personality and identity also dissolved, and, and how he can live or how we can develop or how we can progress? Because the whole, whole progress is this, the progress of ego.
Prabhupāda: First thing is that ego, if you are qualified with false ego, that ego development is dangerous for you. Suppose you are..., you are falsely thinking that you are king. Although you are a servant, you are thinking, "I am king." This is false ego. And if you increase this false ego, then where is the benefit? You are misled. Is it not?
No, personality, falsely, he should be personal. You, you should be egoistic in right way. As your position is. If you falsely think that "I am this," so what is the use of such increasing that ego? It is psychologically wrong. Just like madman, he is thinking, "I am the king of this Ahmadabad." And if he increases that ego, what benefit he'll get? Just like the madman does also. He falls down on the street: "I am the king." So this kind of false ego increasing is simply suicidal. If it is right ego... Therefore the Vedas says that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi." That is right ego. And if I am thinking I am this body, then that kind of increasing the ego is a dangerous. That is actual... The Americans are: "We are the greatest nation." The Indians are thinking, Pakistan is thinking. There is fight. You increase your ego, I increase my ego. Then we fight. What is the benefit of this ego?
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: That my concern should be how I can live without death. That is real intelligent concern. There is death. I know I will die, but I do not wish to die. That is also fact. Suppose you are... If I take a sword and want to kill you, you know that you will die, why don't you accept, "All right, kill me. I'll have to die, so kill me"? Why you protest? Why you protest? Why you fly away? Why you (indistinct) defend? You know you shall die. So die now. (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: Because he wants to enjoy...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not want to die. That is the philosophy. Death is there. (air raid siren in background) Just like here is the siren, and you are (indistinct) die, but why he's defending? Why this siren is there, "Now death is coming, be careful"? That means, in other words, "I do not wish to die." That is my real concern, that I do not wish to die, but death is forced upon me. Therefore my concern should be how to avoid it. That is real concern. That is real philosophy. Why you forget this psychology, that "I do not wish to die"? Somebody will... Even animals. I have seen one pig, a small pig, what is called, pig, small. So the master took (indistinct). Psychologically he understands that he is taken, now he will be killed. Just crying, "peh, peh, peh." So why? This is a pig. He doesn't want to die. So everyone does not want to die, but still he knows that he will die. Therefore the real concern should be that I do not wish to die, that death is forced upon me, and that is my real concern. That is real philosophy, whether there is possibility of. Know that. That is intelligence.
Śyāmasundara: In a way three dimensions. The first one is the phenomenological ego. He says first of all that there are two egos—there is the phenomenological ego and the transcendental ego—what we would call the jīvātmā and the Supersoul. The phenomenological ego is the psychological or empirical ego, which is found in the passing stream of consciousness, or the false ego: the ego that identifies with the events and the stream of events of day-to-day life in this world—what I think I am. And the transcendental ego is the observer behind that stream of consciousness. But his idea is that, still down on this phenomenological level, the phenomenological ego deals with appearances as an activity—that is, cogitates upon appearances which we've passed through by perception. These objects pass through my perception. My phenomenological ego cogitates on those objects and gives what I call the world a structure.
Prabhupāda: That means he knows that he has got another vision.
Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing the philosopher and psychologist Sigmund Freud. His thesis was that certain unconscious states must be repressed by a special mental mechanism which serves as a defense for the ego against painful or fragmental memories, emotions and desires.
Prabhupāda: That is our brahmācārya system. The psychology is that everyone has a sex appetite, everyone has a tendency for intoxication, and everyone had a tendency for meat-eating. Vyavāya āmiṣa madya sevā. These tendencies are already there. There is injunction in the śāstras that one can have sexual intercourse by marriage, legal sex. We are prohibiting illicit sex, but we are not prohibiting legal sex. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho' bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha, sex indulgence which is not against religious principles.
Prabhupāda: These ordinary men who are attached to the materialistic way of life, their only happiness is this sexual intercourse. So śāstra says this happiness derived from sexual intercourse is very, very insignificant. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. This is not happiness. It is very (indistinct) third class or even lower than happiness. But because we have no idea of other happiness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the materialistic way of life, that is the happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. That is a very insignificant happiness. Then how is this happiness experienced? Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. You have got itching, and if you scratch like this, so you get some happiness, but aftereffects of that happiness is very abominable. So even if you have legal sex, the mother has to undergo the labor pains and the father has to take responsibility for raising the children nicely, give them education. Of course, one who is irresponsible like cats and dogs, that is another thing. But those who are actually gentlemen, for them it is not painful. Therefore they are avoiding children by contraceptive methods, because they know to raise children is a very difficult job. So śāstra's injunction is simply to try to tolerate this itching sensation and you save so much pain. This is real psychology. That itching sensation can be tolerated if one practices this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you will not be very much attracted by this sex life.
Prabhupāda: You are seeking after unlimited pleasure. (indistinct) You are seeking that pleasure. What this will pacify you? Therefore nobody is satisfied. He is having sex in different ways, placing the woman in different ways. Now these young girls are almost naked. They are attractive. But this is not (indistinct) how society is degrading. Now the woman population is greater everywhere. So how to solve? As soon as there is woman population, they say, "Where is a man?" The (indistinct) desire (is) that every woman, every girl is trying to attract a man. But where is the man? And the man will take advantage, that "Milk is available on the market. What is the use of keeping a cow?" So they will decline to keep a cow, because milk is so cheap. So this is social desertion. And the more the man will become attached to woman, the woman population will increase. It is psychological. The whole world is increasing woman population. So therefore there is desire, especially in (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: When you have more sex, then you have no power to beget a male child. When the man is less powerful, a girl is born. When the man is powerful, a boy is born. That is Vedic system. In our country, in (indistinct), there are fewer woman because there the men are very stout and strong. When there is discharge, if the man's discharge is larger, then there is a male child; if the woman's discharge is larger, then there is a female child. So when women will be very easily available, the men will be weak. So what will he beget? He will beget female child, because he has lost his power. Sometimes he becomes impotent. So many desertions. If you don't restrict sex life, there will be so many desertions. And that is happening-impotency, no marriage, woman population more. But they did not know how things are happening, how human psychology can be controlled. The perfect system is the Vedic system.
Devotee: But there are aspects of Freud's philosophy and psychology which they feel have proven beneficial for mankind. So many cases of, say, someone is paralyzed and they can't find any direct physical reason why a person can't walk, and through analysis they are able to trace down that it is due to some repressed trauma, what they call trauma.
Prabhupāda: What is?
Śyāmasundara: Shock.
Devotee: And therefore the person reacts on a physical level and they can't (indistinct) psychoanalyzing him and having him recall that event, then he is free...
Prabhupāda: Therefore our prescription is that in the beginning of life, teach him brahmācārya restraint, and when he is grown up, he is above twenty, get him married. In the beginning he will learn how to restrain. If you teach your child to become saintly, he retains his semina, his brain becomes strong, he can understand things, because wasting your semina means less intelligence. So from the beginning, if he is brahmacārī, if he stops misuse of semina, then he becomes intelligent and strong and fully grown. For want of education, everything is being stunted-brain, bodily growth, and everything. So after he is trained as a brahmacārī, if he thinks that still he will have sex enjoyment, all right, he can be married. But because he will have strength of body and brain, he will beget a child, immediately there will be male child. This is practical remedy. And because he has been trained from boyhood to renounce this material way of enjoyment, when he is fifty years old, naturally his first-born child must be twenty-five years old, so he can retire from sex life. (indistinct), because household life means a license for sex life. That is all. It is not required. But one who cannot restrain, he is given a license, "All right, you have sex life by marriage," as I explained in the beginning. So that is real program. That will save the society. Not by (indistinct) or some (indistinct) and this and that. They cannot find out the root disease.
Devotee: Freud's case is interesting, that he formed all of his conclusions by his observations of what he calls neurotic and psychotic patients. He observed mentally ill people, neurosis and psychosis, and he drew his conclusions about both sick and normal psychology from his observation of abnormal. He observed the normal behavior of neurotic people, psychotic people, crazy people, and from their behavior he tried to infer all about human psychology. So not only was he on bodily platform, but his only subject matter was the insane. So how can he draw valid conclusions about behavior?
Prabhupāda: So what is your answer?
Devotee: Yes, his observation is correct, but at the same time it doesn't invalidate Freud's use of psychology for supposedly normal people.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) psychology.
Śyāmasundara: He didn't analyze only crazy people; he also analyzed his friends, his mother, his wife, other people also, healthy people.
Devotee: The point is in Revatīnandana Mahārāja's argument is that we have to define, then, what is crazy and what is sane.
Prabhupāda: He is saying that he had studied only some crazy people.
Śyāmasundara: No.
Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact. He analyzed some sane people also. But one psychiatrist's opinion is that (indistinct) was a civil servant, he was called to give evidence in a case where the criminal was pleading (indistinct) became insane while he committed the murder. So the civil servant was called to test him, whether actually he was insane or (indistinct) insanity. So he gave evidence that "I have tested so many persons, so I have seen that more or less everyone is insane. More or less. They are bewildered. So in that case, if insanity is the only plea that he should be excused, he can be excused. But so far as I know, everyone is more or less insane." And that is our conclusion. We say (indistinct), anyone who is infected with this material nature is more or less insane, crazy. He is crazy, not more or less. Anyone who has got this material body must be crazy. And therefore everyone is speaking in a different way.
Devotee: As a result of Freud's philosophy he prescribed, and many of his students prescribed, certain activities. This is one thing we forget to mention—that they prescribed certain activities to help relieve the patient of the trauma, and that is called therapy. Actually there is a higher therapy. Actually one of Freud's students would say that we are all involved in therapy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which we are, and that therapy is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therapy is a certain kind of activity which will relieve the anxieties and stresses of the mind.
Prabhupāda: That is recommended by Freud?
Śyāmasundara: No. He wasn't a therapeutical psychologist.
Devotee: No, but as a result of his...
Śyāmasundara: Later on they devised that theory of therapy.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) in support of our movement.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that this desire to accuse someone else of being the same is sometimes repressed and replaced by the opposite expression. In other words, someone may dislike someone, but they will inhibit that dislike and show overt symptoms of friendliness, where in fact there is no friendliness there but it is only a mock friendliness. This is one of the psychological attitudes he was studying. Sometimes someone who may have dislike for someone, instead of expressing dislike, may express just the opposite, extreme fondness, where in fact he dislikes the person.
Prabhupāda: That is called (indistinct), silliness. What is the meaning of silly?
Śyāmasundara: Silly means frivolous or superficial.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) If the other party is silly, then you also become silly. That is human nature.
Prabhupāda: You have seen that play?
Śyāmasundara: Tarzan?
Prabhupāda: Tarzan. Yes. He was brought up by monkeys. He was brought on... He has got the monkey habits. Children, if you keep them in good association, then they will come out very good. They will have psychological development in good way. And if you keep them in bad association, they will come out bad. Just like in Boston the priest regretted that these our American boys, they were so much after God, but they could not lead(?) them. Actually you American boys, before coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there was no God consciousness; there was hippie consciousness. And now this has changed, due to association. So you are all grown-up, but even small children, if you keep them in good association, they come out nice. Demigods they come out. And if you put them in the demon association, they come out demons. So they are blank slate. As you write, it is written. That is real psychology. You can mold children as you like. They have got the capacity to... Therefore children are sent to a school for taking education, not old men.
Śyāmasundara: So actually Freud was speaking only of a certain set of children in a certain society, Western society, where they were all brought up a certain way.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He has a got a one-sided experience.
Devotee: Yes. He has been criticized like that.
Śyāmasundara: You don't find these neuroses in Indian families.
Prabhupāda: No.
Devotee (2): They have studied subsequently primitive tribes and they have found that these neuroses were not there. They only existed in the social structure of Victorian Europe.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this is the conclusion—that if you put children in right association, they will go rightly, and if you put them in wrong association, they will go wrongly. They have no independent psychology.
Śyāmasundara: So Freud, actually his psychology depended upon a rather pessimistic view of human nature—that we are all beset with these uncontrollable impulses...
Prabhupāda: This in not only pessimism, but due to poor fund of knowledge. He has no perfect knowledge, neither is he trained up by any perfect man. So he is talking all nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: His conclusion was that it was impossible to be happy in this material world, but we can alleviate some of the conflicts through this psychoanalysis. You can try and make the path as smooth as possible, but it is always...
Prabhupāda: That is one (indistinct) that you cannot be happy in this material world, but if you are spiritually elevated, spiritually trained up, then you will be happy. The same example. Just like iron is not fire, but you put it in the fire, it will act like fire. Similarly, although there is no possibility of happiness in this material world, if you are spiritually trained up, if your consciousness is changed into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will be happy.
Śyāmasundara: These psychologists say that quite often the unconscious is acting through the conscious, only we don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I say. The subconsciousness is there, but they are not manifest. But sometimes they are manifest. All of a sudden coming. There is no connection. Just like a bubble in the pond. All of a sudden a bubble comes up. You see. So the coming out of the bubble, the energy was there within, all of a sudden it comes out, "Pup!" Yes. And even you trace out why it came, but the, it is to be supposed that it was in the subconscious state; all of a sudden it has manifested.
Śyāmasundara: So Jung says that there are two types of unconscious process. The first...
Prabhupāda: Why does he say unconscious?
Śyāmasundara: Two types of unconscious process.
Revatīnandana: No. Subconscious.
Prabhupāda: Subconscious, that is the right term. Why does he say? Even in psychology they call "subconscious," why he's speaking "unconscious"?
Śyāmasundara: The German word is unbewust, which means "unbeknown," so we have translated "unconscious," but it means more like "subconscious."
Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness, of course there is, that is not (indistinct) the same thing. That is not manifest. Unconsciousness, but it will manifest.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that not only individual analysis and dream interpretation are there, but also we must examine folklore, myth, religions, symbolisms and all these, to get a better psychological insight into the unconscious process.
Prabhupāda: So better psychology is that first of all human being or lower than human being. Lower than human being, they have got four principles—eating, sleeping, mating, and fearing—and human being extra, religion. Now which religion is higher, that you have to study. So that answer is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: the religious system which develops towards loving God, that is first class.
Śyāmasundara: This Jung, Carl Jung, I studied with his disciples in Zurich for six months one winter, and he came..., toward the end of his life he became very religious. At the beginning he was an atheist, but after this study he began to understand that the perfect end of psychology is to integrate and become balanced as a personality. And the best way, the only way, the time-tested way, is to be a religious person.
Prabhupāda: Means to become a religious person means to become a lover of God. Did he love God or something else?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He became very much religious, and all his disciples are very religious, but in sort of a mystic way, not, not so much an organized religion. A little bit of hodge-podge.
Prabhupāda: That is no (indistinct). Without clear conception of God, must be hodge-podge.
Śyāmasundara: Not really... But because there are so many unconscious factors that govern our personality, our behavior, that unless a person becomes aware of these unconscious factors, then he is more or less a slave to them, to his unconscious life. So the whole point of psychology is to point out to a person all his unconscious contents, that he becomes aware of them and faces them face to face.
Prabhupāda: That we are teaching. That we have shown. But he remains unconscious state. That is (indistinct). That we are teaching. We are simply, loudly stating, "Please wake up. Please wake up. We are not this body. We are not this body."
Śyāmasundara: He says that the purpose of psychology is to come to grips with our unconscious or our shadow personality, and we must know who I am completely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge. That is real (indistinct). Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself to Lord Caitanya, "Please let me know what I am." This is the business. It requires the assistance of guru to understand our real identity.
| Page Title: | Psychology (Lectures, Philosophy Discussions) |
| Compiler: | Labangalatika, RupaManjari, Mayapur |
| Created: | 04 of May, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=50, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 50 |