Expressions researched:
"perfection of life"
Devotee: There's no value in keeping the body fit through exercise?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become very healthy. But does it mean that health is the perfection of life? Do you mean to say healthy life will not die, will not change his body? So health is required, but health is not the ultimate goal of life. Ultimate goal of life is here.
Prabhupāda: No, we welcome every religion. We don't decry any religion. Our point is the love of Godhead. Or Kṛṣṇa is love, all-attractive. So we want to be attracted by Kṛṣṇa. Just like a magnetic force and iron. Unless iron is rusty, it is automatically attracted by the magnetic force. Similarly, we are contaminated by material coverings. So we are trying to make it rustless so that immediately we shall be attracted. This is the program. Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive. That is a fact. And we are attracted. But being covered with this rust, we are, instead of being attracted by Kṛṣṇa, we are being attracted by māyā. This is our whole program. So our central program is how to love Kṛṣṇa, or how to love God. So we want to see... That is the Bhāgavata definition, that how much you have enhanced your love of God. You call Kṛṣṇa or something else, that doesn't matter. Phalena paricīyate. The result. Your religious principle, what is the result? Are you enhancing your love for God or dog? That we want to see. If you are enhancing your love for God, it is all right. We don't say anything. But if... People should learn how to love. That is the perfection of life. That we are teaching.
Prabhupāda: Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. But such person, such great soul, is very rare. Generally people are mūḍhas. So from mūḍhas we have to be elevated to the position of mahātmā. So mahātmā... And who is mahātmā? That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Mahātmās, those who are great souls, they are not under the spell of this material energy. They are not attracted by these activities of piling and digging and leaving. They are interested with Kṛṣṇa, Vasudeva. That is mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha (BG 9.13). Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ. Bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. Their only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is the highest perfection of life. If one is engaged in the business of satisfying Kṛṣṇa instead of satisfying himself... Most people, they are engaged in satisfying themselves. Everyone in this material world. The so-called politicians, they promise that "I shall give you so many things." But actually, he is trying to occupy the post for his satisfaction. These are all false promises. Why politicians? Even in our family life we maintain wife, children. Why? For my satisfaction. As soon as there is discrepancy in my satisfaction I divorce my wife. Or the wife sees that "This husband is useless." She also divorces. So everywhere, the whole material world is going on on the basis of sense satisfaction.
Prabhupāda: Tiṣṭhāmi. That's it. Therefore a devotee's position is sublime. Kṛṣṇa comes as a devotee also. Actually this happened. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he happened to be a Mohammedan, Lord Caitanya's devotee. So in those days, five hundred years ago, there was some Hindu-Muslim... Still that is going on. So he did not enter Jagannātha temple to create some disturbance. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also did not ask him that "You go to Jagannātha temple. Who can check you?" Of course, if Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered, he would have gone. Neither he wanted to go, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You must go." Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come to him. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. This is the practical. He came to the devotee where he was chanting. So instead of approaching God, if you chant, God will approach you. That is a fact, we see. Instead of Haridāsa Ṭhākura going to Jagannātha, Jagannātha Himself was coming to him. Every day Lord Caitanya would come and ask and sit down, "How you are feeling? What you are doing?" Then He would go to take bath in Samudra. Daily. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... And when Haridāsa Ṭhākura expired, He personally took the body and cremated on the bank of the Samudra and he performed the funeral ceremony. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was so... And he was given the title nāmācārya, "authority of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." Very nice that you are cultivating this knowledge. It is very nice. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). This cultivation of spiritual knowledge means perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Now the soul is in this body. Next time the soul is in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I think myself American. Next life, if I get a body of a dog, then I think myself dog, designate. According to the body I create my designations. But one has to become free from all designations. That is called liberated stage. This is own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material modes of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation. "I am American." "I am Englishman." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am this." "I am that." These are all designations. So real perfection of life is without designations. And that is the real constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Actual, position of the living entity (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for, to come to that transcendental position, without any designations. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Kṛṣṇa or God.
Prabhupāda: Those days or in these days, the same principles are there. Kṣatriyas should fight for Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection of life.
Guest (2): Okay. Then the question is whom shall we fight now? Okay, supposing we are all...
Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes.
Guest (2): Fight in a real..., sword, fight with swords?
Prabhupāda: The demons. Demons. Demons. Just like Lord Rāmacandra fought with the demons, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa conscious person will fight with the demons. That is already there. Demons and demigod always fight. Devāsura-yuddha, you know? That is history. We don't say that fighting should be stopped. We don't say that. We don't say that becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, nonviolence. That is bogus. In Delhi when there was not..., declaration of war between Pakistan and India, press representative came: "Swamiji, what is your opinion about this fight?" I said, "You must fight." And it was published in the paper. It gave some agitation. They were glad. I said, "You must fight." And that was published in big letters in... So we are not that kind of sādhu and Vaiṣṇava, that we don't take care of practical things. When there is need of fight, we shall fight.
Prabhupāda: Naturalist. Anyway, you can call him a philosopher. So the basic point is wrong. Starting is wrong. Starting point is mistake and illusion. Therefore, the next point is cheating. If you start from wrong conception of life, then if you distribute knowledge, that means cheating. You do not know, still you are distributing knowledge. But this rascal Darwin, he has no clear idea. He is simply theorizing, speculating, and misleading people. Therefore, he is cheating. So if I cheat you and you cheat me, then how you can expect perfection of life? It is a society of cheating, and that is actually going on. Everyone is thinking, "How I have gorgeous way cheated you." That is politics, diplomacy. If you can cheat your friend very cleverly, then you are supposed to be very big man. Big lawyer means the law is there, but if he can cheat the law, then he is big lawyer.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is the symptom of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Not Kali-yuga. This is the symptom of conditioned soul. It is very prominent now in this age. Conditioned soul means these four defects—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of the senses. The scientists say that we do not know, that means imperfectness of sense. I am trying to see but the cloud is checking me, and I am considering beyond this cloud there is nothing. That is imperfectness of my seeing. Not... It is not a fact that beyond the cloud there is nothing. So these things are going on—cheating, illusion, mistake, and imperfect.
Prabhupāda: We have published one brochure. (break)
Pañca-draviḍa: ...nicely in the Kṛṣṇa book about the sacrifices of Vasudeva. Where Lord Kṛṣṇa speaks and says to the assembled sages and ascetics that "Seeing you is the perfection of these eyes and perfection of life," and that "Those persons who go to the holy places only to take bath there or to see the Deities in the temple, they are no better than animals like the ass." I've been thinking that how you have presented this ISKCON movement as an assembly of devotees all over the world so they don't even have to go to the holy places. Simply by walking into one of your temples is like walking into Vṛndāvana and having the association of these great ascetics and sages, because your teachings are (indistinct). (break)
Prabhupāda: ...picture?
Indian man: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Similar Deity we'll have in this London Berkshire Palace.
Indian man: They don't look like the Deities, they look like boy and girl.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kiśora-Kiśorī. (break)
Prabhupāda: That is real life. That is real life, to go back to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you do not know where you are going. After all, you're preparing for something next. But your energy is being spoiled because do not know. But if you become kṛṣṇa-yājī, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, is it very difficult? Man-manā. You think of Kṛṣṇa, you worship Kṛṣṇa, you are going to the temple, you're offering some prayers. That's all right. What is the difficulty if you offer the prayer to Kṛṣṇa? You have to do the same thing in a systematic way. Then mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25), then you go back to Kṛṣṇa. Next life is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life.
Scholar: Well, I think the Bhagavad-gītā also mentions that many ways lead to God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Many ways, that is all right. But the best way He suggests who comes back to Me. (chuckles) Many ways, there may be. You can go to hell, that is also another way. Therefore He says in the sixty-..., seven, sarva dharmān pari... "I have already suggested many ways. You give up, kick up all these ways. You simply surrender unto Me." That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So intelligent man should take it. And still if he likes many ways let him do that. Let him go to hell. Who can check it? Yānti deva vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ... (BG 9.25). He has suggested. You can go to the higher planetary system, you can remain here, you can become cats, you can become dogs, you can become bhūta, ghost. You can become anything you like, but if you become mad-yājī, if you become a devotee of Me, then you come to me. Now it is up to..., our position to make choice whether he is going to be a ghost, or become, going to become the associates of Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: This is research. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Uttamaśloka. Uttamaśloka means Kṛṣṇa. Guṇānuvarṇanam. Describing His qualities. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is success of life. Avicyutaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible. And how it is ascertained? Kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. By great personalities. They have decided: "This is the perfection of life." Kavibhiḥ. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is Bhāgavata. Each word, each line, volumes of volumes of philosophy. This is called perfection. This kind of writing required. Not that I have researched, find out, and after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not right." Another thing. This is not science. This is childish play. I say: "Today it is all right." And, after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not all right."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we find in science.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what we find in science.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is, it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, proton, atoms, this, that, and hydrogen, phoxygen, oxygen. But what benefit people will get?
Prabhupāda: Sometimes we find that peaceful living is visible even in animal society. Just like the cows. They're very peaceful. There are other animals, dogs and others. They fight. But hundreds and thousands of cows, they live very peacefully. Birds also... Just like the swans, they live very peacefully. So is that the highest goal of life, to live peacefully? Because that is also found in animal society. Is that the perfection of life?
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, a man has to ask himself a simple and straightforward question. What really does he want to put his life to? Does he want suffering or peace?
Prabhupāda: No, suffering, of course, nobody wants. That's a fact.
Buddhist Monk (1): That's it, that's it...
Prabhupāda: But in this material world, even if you become peaceful, does it mean that you are out of suffering? I don't think.
Prabhupāda: ...suffering or enjoyment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25), bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā... Who goes where—that is stated here. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ (BG 14.18). Everything is there. We can understand. We can understand where we are going. So one who is going to a higher level of life—and the most perfection of life is go back to home, back go Godhead-he's not afraid of death.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Sādhu maro vā jīva vā. It is said, for a sādhu, saintly person, either he lives or dies, he has the same position, back to home, back to Godhead.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Karma can be changed for better or for worse.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Karma can be changed by bhakti. Otherwise, cannot be.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is also necessary.
Mother: Yes. It doesn't worry us at all.
Prabhupāda: But these four type of branches of education is not sufficient for human being. A human being, above all this education, must have the knowledge how to love God. And that is perfection of life.
Mother: Yeah, well, Michael was taught that when he was very small. The Jesuits saw to that.
Prabhupāda: That is perfection.
Mother: The Jesuits certainly did.
Prabhupāda: So to understand God or how to love God, there is religious system. In every civilized human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Mohammedanism or Buddhism, the aim, religious system is there in human society besides the education of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animal society. So a human being is distinct from the animal when he has education how to understand God and how to love Him. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here.
Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for...
Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life.
Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Mother: Yes, we do that.
Prabhupāda: That is our...
Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I?
Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest?
Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.
Bhagavān: Another question?
Reporter: No, I think it's all right. You have a speech tomorrow? You will have a speech tomorrow?
Prabhupāda: Where?
Bhagavān: Yes, here, yes.
Devotee: Here, it'll be.
Bhagavān: Here. In the afternoon you are scheduled to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the subject matter? Any (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. It is very nice. So intelligent men and women should take interest in this great movement. It is a very scientific spiritual movement. People are suffering for lack of spiritual knowledge. They have become materially like animals. Materialism means animalism. Yes. Materialism means animalism. Animalism means in the lower grade of existence. What is the difference between dog and a human being. He has got a lower grade body, and the human being has got a higher grade body. So the more we become materialistic, we get lower grade body. In the lower grade body, the consciousness works only on four activities, eating sleeping, sex life and defence. This is lower grade activities. And higher grade activities: working for understanding God. That is higher grade life. In the lower grade life, nobody can understand God. In the higher grade life, one can understand God, yes. One can feel with intelligence. Just like dog may understand this is day, this is night. But he does not understand why it is day, why it is night. But a man can understand that it is day because the sun is there. And it is night because sun is now set. That is the difference dog and man. Better knowledge. So as we advance in better knowledge, that is perfection of life.
"One must be inquiring about the highest perfection of life." That is human life. Śreya uttamam. Śreyas means... śreyas and preyas. Goodness, welfare, good. A small child does not know what is his śreyas. If you give a two payasā worth lozenges, he thinks, "This is my object, end of... I have got now nice sweet lozenges." But as you advance, then the śreyas is different. It is preyas. Immediately which you like, that is called preyas. But what is your ultimate good, that is called śreyas. Śreyas and preyas. So people are interested in the bodily concept of life. Anything which is immediately pleasing to my senses, we take it, "This is my end of life." Therefore śāstra says, śreya uttamam, not that śreyas which is immediately very pleasing to you. What is immediately pleasing to you, it will be a source of great displeasure at the end. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So uttamam. Uttamam. Ut means transcendental, and tama means this material world. "Beyond this material world," Uttama. Śreya uttamam. Because we are not this material body, therefore our śreyas, our highest perfection of life, is different. Here the perfection of life—you get a comfortable life of the body.
Prabhupāda: The jñānīs and yogis, they have to search for the Absolute Truth for many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Those who are searching out the Absolute Truth, they are also jñānavān. Or after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, jñānavān. Everyone is searching after the Absolute or the highest perfection of life. "In this way, searching, when one comes to the real platform of becoming wise, then he surrenders unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Why? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such wise man, jñānavān, he knows that "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. "That mahātmā is very rare." So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is making that sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary mahātmā. Sa mahātmā, that mahātmā, who fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa also says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is real perfection of life. By understanding Kṛṣṇa, by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, by going back to home back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, that is saṁsiddhi. What is that verse, saṁsiddhi?
Out of many millions of persons, they try to understand what is the perfection of life, and out of many such millions of persons who are in the line of understanding perfection of life, some of them or some one may understand Kṛṣṇa. Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Just like Brahmā was also bewildered whether Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Brahmā, the first creature of this universe, he's also... muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Therefore we should take advantage of this opportunity. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā, about Himself. That is the highest perfection of life, simply to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. As spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Then one's life is perfect. But unfortunately, so many scholars and swamis, they are misinterpreting Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā. The people are placed in darkness. They are already in darkness. By misinterpretation, they are putting them in darkness. They cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. For practical example you can see in European countries the Bhagavad-gītā was being studied at least for two hundred, three hundred years, but there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa, not even. Within the history. And now they are studying Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, you will find Prabhupāda: thousands of kṛṣṇa-bhaktas. They are not given the chance to understand Bhagavad-gītā by misinterpretation.
Prabhupāda: That is the problem. I am eternal, as spirit soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). I do not die after the annihilation of this body. But why I am forced to accept another body, which will be annihilated? This technology is unknown all over the world. And still they are proud of becoming very advanced in science. (Aside:) Open this. Let them come. Keep it open. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). Come forward. (break) ...technology, although it is a problem. But we can supply this technology, to solve this problem. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām... Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. (break) ...modern technologist, scientists, they do not know what is the perfection of life. Now, they are thinking that having a big building, possessing big building, and possessing a few cars and nice bank balance, that is perfection of life. But suppose you get a very nice home, very nice big bank balance, and other amenities. But there is every possibility that as soon as you prepare all these things, you have to go away immediately, death. There is no guarantee that "After finishing this job, I shall be able to enjoy these things." At any moment you can be asked, "Get out." So this labor, so much labor for creating nice residential quarters, bank balance, and others, that is my futile labor because I could not enjoy it. Therefore this is not perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called illusion, māyā. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy. Then how he was sticking to that politics? And because he was sticking to that politics, he was killed. If he would have retired from politics, he would not have been killed. Therefore because he was sticking to that politics means he wanted to enjoy the fruit. But he could not. Therefore we do not know what is the perfection of life. Because we create so-called paraphernalia of perfection of life, but we are not allowed to enjoy it, therefore we must accept, "There is superior power. Without His sanction I may create very favorable situation, but I may not be allowed to enjoy it." Suppose you are bank manager. If the post is that "Yes, you will be appointed to day and tomorrow you will be kicked out." Will you accept it?
Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda laughs) So you have been accustomed to this kick out. Yes, actually, that is the position. We have been accustomed in the kicking out of māyā. māyā rati kaya. (?) There is a..., in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that we are being kicked out by māyā like football. From that side it is kicked. I come this side, and from this side, I am kicked. I am going that side. That's all. This is our happiness.
Guru dāsa: But the question was if one is knowingly going to be kicked out.
Prabhupāda: No, knowingly, no sane man will go. But because he is ignorant, he is making plan to be happy, and one day it comes, "Kick out! Go out!" That is ignorance. Therefore śūdra. Therefore our perfection of life should be, that is recommended in the śāstra, brahma-saukhyam anantam. You should aspire of happiness which is unlimited. You will never be kicked out from that happiness. That is the idea. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This is the instruction. You must try for a place where you get eternal life, eternal bliss, eternal knowledge. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: So as soon as you have to take birth, you have to die. Just like Aurobindo took birth; he died. Everyone. Everyone, even Brahmā. It may be a long duration or a small duration. That doesn't matter. Everyone. That is the perfectional knowledge, how to solve this birth and death problem. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). As soon as we are under these clutches of birth and death, old age and disease, we are imperfect. We are imperfect. Whatever I may be, you may be, but if I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, then I am imperfect. Therefore the perfectional, perfection of life is when you haven't got to take birth or die or become diseased and old. That is perfection.
Guest (1): That world must be somewhere in existence.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. That is, that is indicated...
Guest (1): But that...
Prabhupāda: Yad gatvā na nivartante tad... (BG 15.6).
Guest (1): But that, the pressure of that world can come on our world also...
Prabhupāda: No, that world will not.
Guest (1): ...can become our world.
Prabhupāda: That knowledge... Just like we are getting this knowledge. Kṛṣṇa came. Kṛṣṇa is giving us the knowledge. You can get the knowledge and make your life perfect.
Prabhupāda: Vīrarāghavācārya: deha-geha-gehayoḥ ātmiya buddhiḥ jihasaya tyāgecchāya (?). Ātma-buddhi, this family, society, friendship and love. Yes. To feel very much affection... What is called? Attached. Tyāgecchā. It should be given up. Therefore the sannyāsa āśrama. Just try to deliver this message very... Everyone is in darkness. Therefore I was speaking. They do not know what is siddhi. Yesterday, you were present? Yes.
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is siddhi. What is perfection of life, they do not know. Neither they have information.
Brahmānanda: Simply they talk about it.
Prabhupāda: All foolish. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind man leading other blind men. There is no sense. Whole civilization. It is, this Kṛṣṇa con..., our movement is a challenge to everyone, a challenge, genuine challenge. After all, everyone wants happiness, but they do not know what is happiness. So you can make few puris and kittri. That's all.
Prabhupāda: This is yoga practice also. Yoga. Yoga means to concentrate the mind on a subject matter. So we should meditate upon Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta. Then gradually you'll increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. And that is the perfection of life. The perfection of life, the symbol is in Vṛndāvana. Because all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, they were very, very, much attached to Kṛṣṇa.
Mr. Sar: Attached to Kṛṣṇa were.
Prabhupāda: The cowherd boys, the girls, the elderly persons, the trees, the flowers, the land, the birds, the beasts, the cows-their center was Kṛṣṇa. So we have to follow their footprints, how to... We have got already attachment.
Mr. Sar: Yes. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ.
Prabhupāda: No, attachment we have got for material things. That we have to transfer. This is yoga practice.
Mr. Sar: That is yoga practice. Correct.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yoga indriya-saṁyamaḥ. Yoga, the... I think it is Patañjali sūtra.
Prabhupāda: ...important thing, mām, Kṛṣṇa. They practice it, always remembering Kṛṣṇa. Then at the end of life, ante nārāyaṇa-smṛti. That is perfection of life. But how one will remember, ante, then? There is a verse of... Just wait.
Chandobhai: Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran... (BG 8.6).
Prabhupāda: No. Just wait. There is a verse by Kulaśekhara. Kulaśekhara. Adyaiva viśatu me mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ. He says. He says, "My Lord..." The idea is that "Now I am in quite fit order. So let me remember You and die. Because at the end of... At the end of... Kapha-pitta-vāyu, there will be disorder. Smaraṇaṁ kutas te (MM 33). At that time, it is..."
Dr. Patel: How can there be the smaran?
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Therefore, my Lord, I pray that adyaiva, immediately, because now I am fit."
Dr. Patel: Right now.
Prabhupāda: Right now. "Now I am fit. So let me remember You and die." So one must be fit. You see, even in daily, in dream, while sleeping, we forget so many things. Everything we forget.
Prabhupāda: So śāstra says, labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte: "My dear human being, please note. You have got this form of life after many many births, bahu-sambhavānte. You had to undergo the aquatic life, 900,000 species, the birds, trees and plants, two million. How much time it has gone by for this evolution. Now you have come to the human form of life." Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte mānuṣyam: "This is human form of life." Artha-dam: "Now you can achieve success. Although it is temporary, but you can achieve the highest perfection of life. Therefore," tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyu yāvat, "before next death, you be very dexterous to complete the success." And if you think, then what about my sense enjoyment? Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt: "It will be available any life. This life you spend for this purpose. Don't waste simply for viṣaya." Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. This you will get even if you become cat and dog. But in the cat and dogs, I will not get this opportunity, how to get out of this material existence. Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. These are the instructions of Prahlāda. These rascals have no education to understand. Therefore we must give this education. We must induce them to read these books in the school, colleges. That is propaganda.
Prabhupāda: So it is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice... This practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life, and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death, he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioning, certainly. The position is that you must be under certain condition. That is your position. So if you become conditioned by God, that is your perfection. And if you become conditioned by māyā, that is your trouble. You must be conditioned. That is your position. You cannot be independent. And therefore, if you become naturally conditioned, then that is your happy life. Just as child, he must be conditioned. But when he is conditioned by his parents, that is his perfection of life. Your position is that you must be conditioned. Why you are thinking to be independent? That is your rascaldom. You should always know that "I must be conditioned. That is my life." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Condition. Still conditioned, but daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, under the spiritual nature. That is Mahātmā. Mahātmā is not independent. He is also conditioned. So first of all, we must understand that our natural position is to be conditioned. Now, why, where I shall be conditioned? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). You condition here. "You become conditioned by Me. Then you will be happy." Those who are thinking that "We shall not be conditioned," they are still in māyā. You cannot be without condition.
Prabhupāda: So if you have got scientific knowledge, you scientifically explain that God is the original source. Then your knowledge is perfect. What is the purport?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.
Prabhupāda: And that is the summary of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru. That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Now, who is guru? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru, śrotriyam, who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru. Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru, he is not guru. This is called guru-paramparā, disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our... (aside:) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. So I am always inexperienced because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. he asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone?" That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly.
Prabhupāda: Just like we are sitting, ladies and gentlemen here. So every one of us, we have got different dress. The dress is superficial, but as ladies and gentlemen, human being, we are one. Similarly, each one of us can have a different dress. So these living entities, they are in different dresses only, and the dresses are calculated-8,400,000 different forms. In the water there are 900,000 different dresses. Similarly, the trees and plants, the two million different types of vegetables. Jalaja-nava-lakṣāni sthavara-lakṣa-viṁśati. There are insects. There are 1,100,000 species. Similarly birds, there are one million. And Pakṣiṇāṁ daśalakṣanam. Daśa-lakṣa means one million, one million types of bird. And three million types of beasts. And 400,000 forms of human being. In this way the living entity is passing through different dresses. And the best dress is this human form because in this dress you can understand what is God, what you are, what is your relation with God, and then you can act and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore if this dress, in this dress... I am living being; you are living being. So we are in this human form of dress. We have got developed consciousness. If we miss the opportunity to understand God, then again we are put into the cycle of this evolutionary process. We should not therefore misuse this form like other forms. We should utilize it properly to understand the unlimited God and our relationship with God and act accordingly. That is perfection of life.
Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization..."
Prabhupāda: Nature, viṣṇu-māyā, nature. They are bewildered simply by seeing the nature. Then?
Satsvarūpa: Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.
Prabhupāda: So do that. Don't approach the cheater guru, bluffer guru, and be cheated. Stop this business. This has spoiled the whole spiritual atmosphere of the world. Take guru, the supreme guru, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when in Mahābhārata when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira performed rājasūya yajña, in the rājasūya yajña one person is elected the chief guest. So in that yajña many big, big demigods were present, and Bhīṣmadeva was present, Vyāsadeva was present, and many, many other saintly person, brāhmaṇa, from the whole universe were present. And Kṛṣṇa was decided to be accepted as the... Everyone agreed to accept Him as the chief guest. And the Śiśupāla, he protested. Then everyone was angry to kill him. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the guru by everyone. By our ācāryas, recent ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... I am not speaking of the loafer class, but those who are recognized ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya... They accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru and follow His instruction and try to convince others. "Others" means even your family members. That is success of life. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. Why should you lead your life blindly? This human life is meant for enlightenment, supreme enlightenment, and this is supreme enlightenment, to understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and preach it as far as you can. If not, you can preach amongst your family members. This is perfection of life. What is that verse? Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Others thought that "If I give the dust of my feet to Kṛṣṇa, I may go to hell," but the gopīs thought, "Let us go to hell, but let Kṛṣṇa be cured." Therefore the gopīs are the first-class devotee. They do not care for themselves. That is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargabhir ya kalpitāḥ: "The process of worship as it was planned by the gopīs in Vṛndāvana, there is no comparison. That is the highest devotion." They did not care for themself. They simply wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa was playing flute at dead of night, all the gopīs were flying to Kṛṣṇa. His father, his husband—"Where you are going in this dead of...? Where you are going?" They didn't care. Society, friendship, love—all sacrificed: "We shall go to Kṛṣṇa." This is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. That is the highest perfection of life, to sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. "Only Kṛṣṇa should be satisfied." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that is not very easy job. But one can do if he likes, everything for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says also, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Gopīs did not care for social, for religious or family and nothing. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. They went: "Kṛṣṇa now is calling. Let us go." This is the typical example of sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. So, of course, it is not possible to become on the standard of gopīs. That is not possible. But at least we shall try to follow these devotees.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of many millions of people, one may become interested about what is the perfection of life." They do not want. "And out of such millions of persons," yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3), "who was trying for perfection of life, out of many millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." māyā is so strong. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not for ordinary person. Most fortunate, bhāgyavān jīva... Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpaya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). All these living entities, wandering throughout the universe... Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite. If one gets the chance of guru and Kṛṣṇa, then he can understand. And if still one argues, then he's again misfortunate. Therefore Kṛṣṇa demands, "You rascal, don't argue! Surrender!" Sarva-dharmān parityaja mām... That is the way. He commands.
Devotee: Actually, you were asking if there were any examples of explosions happenning without material cause, and I was just wondering if you could explain how volcanoes explode.
Prabhupāda: Hm? That is God's desire, nature's way. Nature is behind this, and behind nature...
Devotee: Through the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins. (break)
Jayapatāka: Everyone is sending their sons and daughters to the university and colleges, and they are getting degree, but they are not getting any jobs.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.
Prabhupāda: Now, he is electrician. If whatever he earns he engages in worship Kṛṣṇa, then he is transcendental. He is not electrician; he is a Vaiṣṇava. This is clearly said. Then?
Brahmānanda: "If one thinks always in this way in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then, by the grace of the Lord, he becomes fully aware of everything. That is the perfection of life. The Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā, teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā. (BG 12.7) The Supreme Lord Himself takes charge of delivering such devotees. That is the highest perfection of life. In whatever occupation one may be engaged, if he serves the Supreme Lord, he will achieve the highest perfection."
Prabhupāda: So, some of the big men, past politician like Nandaji, they are also thinking very nicely. Now it is the time to coordinate all these thinkers on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā as we are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That should be seriously taken. And another difficulty is that without any reference to the śāstra there are so many spiritual propagandist. That is not very good. That is not very good, not good at all. No question of very good. They are more or less atheist. They will not take, accept the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. They'll manufacture their own way. That will not help us. You must take the standard things. Then it will be successful. In my, this propaganda, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I am very much satisfied that I did not adulterate any instruction of the śāstra. And it is becoming very effective. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ (BG 16.23). Find out this verse. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, lusty desires, very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman. This is their subject matter, kāma. So everyone in this material world infected with this tamo-guṇa, all lusty desires, in various ways, varieties. And some of them in rajo-guṇa-politics and improvement of material condition. So we have to cut down this tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, come to the sattva-guṇa. Then he'll not be disturbed by these lusty desires and greediness. Then he'll be happy. Sthita-sattve prasīdati. When he comes to the sattva-guṇa, now he has to make further progress, sattva-guṇa. And the progress means, being situated in sattva-guṇa if he advances in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he surpasses all the material qualities. That is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: Perfection of life means ultimately you become lazy; you haven't got to work. That is perfection, they say. Otherwise why they get a cottage in a secluded place and live? All these Americans, they go weekend. They leave aside all working, they become tired, hard working, and they go. That is the intention, that you should live peaceful life, not working very hard. That is human life. Huh? Otherwise why they go outside the city at the weekend? Why do they go? Hm?
Indian man (1): They want rest, I suppose. They want rest.
Prabhupāda: So that means lazy.
Indian man (1): No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Rest means lazy; you don't work.
Indian man (1): If one works five days a week, you rest for two...
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You have to work to become lazy. (laughter) That is another thing. But the goal is to become lazy. You work five days very hard just to become lazy for two days. That's all. So if you have got means to become seven days lazy, you'll prefer it.
Prabhupāda: This is perfection of life, that...
You may do whatever occupational duty you are... But you have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then your everything is perfect. And if you satisfy your senses, then you are going to hell. This is the position. Therefore it is... Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). Even that karma is abominable, sa-doṣam api na tyājet (BG 18.48). "You go on with your work. Even there is some fault, it doesn't matter, but you satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect." Just like Arjuna did. The fighting is not good business, but he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Therefore by fighting, he became a great devotee-sva-karmaṇā. He did not leave his position as a kṣatriya, as a gṛhastha, but he... Karisye vacanam tava: (BG 18.73) "Yes. In spite of my not being inclined to fight, because You are asking, I'll do it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) (break) You remain in your place, but you have your ears to hear Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be perfect. What is the difficulty? You remain as a doctor.
Hari-śauri: Everybody's mad after getting some big position, and then when they get it they find out it's even worse than where they started.
Prabhupāda: Because the body does not allow. So all, from all side we were discussing Prahlāda Mahārāja's..., how he is experienced of this material way of life. It is all useless. So by following this mahājana devotee we can make our life perfect. Nothing is wanted except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection of life. That is instruction of.... Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarim (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). No, we don't want. Then what do you want? Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaitukī. Without any motive let me become a sincere devotee of.... (end)
Prabhupāda: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by... These are all theories only. It has no value.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing haṭha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.
Dr. Patel: That said, tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara: "You must do everything for Him, even eating."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. That we say. We say twice, that.... Just last night I was discussing that this human form of life is to make our choice, whether we are going to get a body back to home, back to Godhead, or again we are going in the cycle of birth and death. This is our choice. If we act according to the orders of God, then we go to Him, back to home, back to Godhead. And if we still whimsically act, then I go again in the cycle of birth and death. That's a fact.
Guest (3): Well, we.... See, we desire and strive to follow out the orders of God.
Prabhupāda: That is perfection of life. But if we don't do that, then we are going again to the evolutionary process...
Guest (4): That's right.
Prabhupāda: ...of birth and death. It will depend on my action.
Guest (3): Exactly. Will you agree with this point, that we are not perfect?
Prabhupāda: Well, anyone who follows the order of God, he is perfect. Otherwise all are...
Guest (3): Can you be completely perfect and follow the orders perfectly?
Prabhupāda: According to the Vedic system, therefore, from the very beginning of life the brahmacārya system is introduced so that from one's very childhood—from the age of five years—one can practice modifying one's human activities so as to engage perfectly in devotional service. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, Chapter Two, verse 40, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt: 'Even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.' Modern civilization, not referring to the verdicts of Vedic literature, is so cruel to the members of human society that instead of teaching children to become brahmacārīs, it teaches mothers to kill their children even in the womb, on the plea of curbing the increase of population. And if by chance a child is saved, he is educated only for sense gratification. Gradually, throughout the entire world, human society is losing interest in the perfection of life. Indeed, men are living like cats and dogs, spoiling the duration of their human lives by actually preparing to transmigrate again to the degraded species among the 8,400,000 forms of life. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is anxious to serve human society by teaching people to perform devotional service, which can save a human being from being degraded again to animal life.
Therefore, the educational system in the human form of life should be so perfect that one will understand his intimate relationship with God, or Viṣṇu. Every living entity has an intimate relationship with God. One should therefore glorify the Lord in the adoration of śānta-rasa or revive his eternal relationship with Viṣṇu as a servant in dāsya-rasa, a friend in sakhya-rasa, a parent in vātsalya-rasa or a conjugal lover in mādhurya-rasa. All these relationships are on the platform of love. Viṣṇu is the center of love for everyone, and therefore the duty of everyone is to engage in the loving service of the Lord. As stated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the Bhāgavatam, Third Canto, Twenty-fifth Chapter, thirty-eighth verse: yesām ahaṁ priya ātmā sutaś ca sakhā guruḥ suhṛdo daivam iṣṭam. 'In any form of life, we are related with Viṣṇu, who is the most beloved, the Supersoul, son, friend and guru.' Our eternal relationship with God can be revived in the human form of life, and that should be the goal of education. Indeed, that is the perfection of life and the perfection of education."
Prabhupāda: Therefore, one should be trained to be a perfect brahmacārī in the beginning of life, and then to be perfect in sense control, following the regulative principles, if one becomes a householder. From household life one is ordered to accept vānaprastha life and go to the forest and then accept sannyāsa. That is the perfection of life. From the very beginning of life, those who are ajitendriya, who cannot control their senses, are educated only for sense gratification, as we have seen in the Western countries. Thus the entire duration of a life of even one hundred years is wasted and misused, and at the time of death one transmigrates to another body, which may not be human. At the end of one hundred years, one who has not acted as a human being in a life of tapasya (austerity and penance) must certainly be embodied again in a body like those of cats, dogs and hogs. Therefore this life of lusty desires and sense gratification is extremely risky."
Prabhupāda: Yes. We must come to the correct position of our spiritual life, then it is perfection of life. Otherwise, they're ignorant. If the husband comes at home and the wife calls him by the name, "John, come here." "Oh, you are not addressing 'my lord,' " it will be ridiculous. He might be "my lord," in the court, but when he's in the family, the wife calls by the name. So our, with the change of dress we are changing our name, circumstances, thoughts, and everything. Therefore we find differentiation. American, Indian, Hindu, Muslim, black, white, this, these are all designation of the dress. And therefore we do not agree. As soon as I accept, identify myself with the dress, there will be disagreement. And as soon as we, everyone of us, we know that this is superficial, this is dress, I am spirit soul, then there will be agreement. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, find out this verse. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). So without this understanding they have opened United Nations, keeping them cats and dogs. And they are simply barking, that's all. This is going on. For the last forty years simply they are barking. What achievement is there? In your country, who is the president gave the black man same liberty?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the solution. Therefore our only business should be to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. That makes the solution-tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Our propaganda is how to understand Kṛṣṇa. And this yoga, Kṛṣṇa consciousness yoga, simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is explained.
Without any doubt. And if you, asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ mām, if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). We are therefore requesting everyone, study Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't interpret. Don't screw out your concocted meaning. Then your life is successful. Every politician, every scholar, everyone is trying to screw out some meaning. That is the disease. But we say, we are begging people, that "You read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and try to understand it."
Prabhupāda: There are so many Western woman, girls, in our society. They are chanting, dancing, taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Of course, because superficially, bodily, there is some distinction, so we keep women separately from men, that's all. Otherwise, the rights are the same.
Prof. O'Connell: Is it possible, Swamiji, for a woman to be a guru in the line of disciplic succession?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jāhnavā devī was-Nityānanda's wife. She became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it is not possible to become guru? But, not so many. Actually one who has attained the perfection, she can become guru. But man or woman, unless one has attained the perfection.... Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). The qualification of guru is that he must be fully cognizant of the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he or she can become guru. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. (break) In our material world, is it any prohibition that woman cannot become professor? If she is qualified, she can become professor. What is the wrong there? She must be qualified. That is the position. So similarly, if the woman understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly, she can become guru.
Indian man: Well, to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do you not require adhikārī?
Prabhupāda: Adhikārī means he must agree to understand. That is adhikārī. But we do not agree. That is our fault.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the śāstras one should be elevated to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdra. Śudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says pāpa-yoni? Pāpa-yoni. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. They are also taken as pāpa-yoni. And what to speak of the śūdras and caṇḍālas? They must be pāpa-yoni. Only the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brāhmaṇa, who is kṣatriya, who is a vaiśya, who is a śūdra. It is accepted that everyone is a śūdra because there is no reformation. So according to Pāñcarātriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaiṣṇava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathād bhaved vipraḥ. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brāhmaṇa. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Viṣṇu, then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. That is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: No, that is possible, I can become prime minister or any big man. But if I do not work properly, if I work like animal, then my next life is animal. There is no consideration that "Here is a prime minister, why he should become a dog?" Nature will act. If you infect some disease, you may be prime minister or you may be a common man, if you have infected that disease, you must suffer from that disease. That is nature's law. There is no consideration that "Here is prime minister. He has infected the malaria germs. He should not suffer." Nature's law if not like that. Just like you say that in India there is malaria. So your daughter was not excused, that "Here is a girl coming of very respectable, good family. She should be excused." No excuse. You have infected malaria germ, you must suffer. So similarly, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). We are associating with different modes of material nature, and according to our association, sat, asat, good birth or low-class birth is there—either as demigods in the higher planetary system or human being in the middle planetary system or as animals, low class. There are three classes of birth. That depends on our association with the modes of material nature—goodness, passion or ignorance. So at least in the human form of life nobody should be kept in ignorance. The facility must be given. That is civilization. Every human being should have the greatest opportunity to make his life successful. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Every human being is open to accept the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make his life successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). This is our propaganda, to give everyone the facility of perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is not surrender. When you keep yourself in your so-called duty, that recommendation is there. But when you fully surrender, there is no more karma, everything is bhakti. And because you do not surrender, therefore He is recommending that you do your karma like this. But as soon as you surrender, you are above karma. Sa guṇān sama-tītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya, you are brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). So long you do not surrender, He is linking your activities with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, "You do like this." Then one day you'll be able to surrender. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, he wanted the kingdom better than his father, grandfather. So he had to undergo so much severe austerities. He got Kṛṣṇa. But when he got Kṛṣṇa, he said svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varam, "I don't want any benediction." So this position you can attain any moment, "My Lord, I surrender unto You. I don't want anything from You. Kindly give me shelter at Your lotus feet." This is the result of greatest tapasya. And Kṛṣṇa gives you protection. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So that is the highest perfection of life, to surrender to God without any reservations. Then life is perfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (why) our gurukula is there. How these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, (indistinct), how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are doing the same thing, offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvidaḥ. We are keeping this house for association of devotees so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education: the animal (is) eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street, we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building.
Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animal, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That you do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to different bodies. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization.
Prabhupāda:
So Indian life means para-upakāra. They are in the darkness, others, in the darkness. They have no such culture, spiritual culture. India has got that culture, this Bhagavad-gītā. So one should make his life a practically Bhagavad-gītā life. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. And preach it to the world. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. And this order was not only... Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu happened to be a Bengali... He appeared in Nadia district, a district in Bengal. But He does not say the Bengalis; He said the bhāratīs. Bharata-varṣa janma haila yāra. So it is India's mission to become exactly on the line of Bhagavad-gītā. That is also spoken by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that perfection of life means to understand Bhagavad-gītā. He said āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa: (CC Madhya 7.128)
Prabhupāda: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidyā, means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Māyā has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti. So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat.
Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasāda prapti mātrena. Our Jayatīrtha prabhu is a good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's a very good manager, experienced.
George Harrison: Hm?
Prabhupāda: He's experienced manager.
Jayatīrtha: Not very good managing this place now.
Prabhupāda: So when one comes to this understanding, that we are not master, we are servant, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births, if by chance one gets the association of the servant of the Lord, then he understands that he is not master, he's servant of Kṛṣṇa. And then he surrenders. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Such great soul who has understood that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," he's a very great soul. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Very, very rare to be found. But that is the fact. The sooner we learn that we cannot become master, we are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, let us surrender to Kṛṣṇa and remain in our own position as servant, then it is perfection of life. Therefore one who surrenders, one who offers.... This is the beginning, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Namaskuru. Kṛṣṇa says namaskuru. Namaskuru means "Just offer your obeisances unto Me." So in the absence of.... Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but Kṛṣṇa sends His representative. So if we begin, offer namaskuru, to the representative, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, and then gradually, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and becomes situated in his own original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that is perfection of life. Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Society and economic condition, everything should be so arranged that this human child should be gradually pushed for perfection of life, go back home, back to Godhead. This is civilization. And modern civilization is "Don't care for what is going to happen. So long you live, eat, drink, be merry, enjoy," that's all. Sense gratification. This is called nāstika-vāda. Very dangerous. And that is going on all over the world. How a gentleman can live in that society?
Hari-śauri: They can't. Gradually people...
Prabhupāda: Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This is not a place for a gentleman." Formerly, therefore, they used to go away from the society, go in the forest, to give up this bad association. Live alone.
Hari-śauri: Practically speaking, that's what we've done. By your establishing these temples, it's given us someplace to go where we can get out of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Therefore our temples should be very carefully managed. It may not become again another pandemonium.
Prabhupāda: If when you see that he does not speak anything except Kṛṣṇa, that is tattva-darśi. If you are expert businessman in certain line, you have no other business than to talk with on that line. Suppose if you are to purchase some gold, then you have to go to the gold market for dealing with gold. Why should we go to the ice market? That is your ignorance. If you want to know Kṛṣṇa, then you have to know from the persons who are dealing with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They have no other business. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are dealing with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We're writing books, so many books for Kṛṣṇa. We are preaching and going country to country. We simple deal with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the movement is known as "Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Somebody suggested "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" No, if I say "God consciousness," they'll bring so many gods. It is very simple. If we take it seriously, then benefit is there. But if we hesitate, it is our misfortune.
To understand Kṛṣṇa is not a joke. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu-out of millions and millions of persons, kaścid yatati siddhaye, one may try for perfection of life.
Guest: I think it's the supreme philosophy. It is basic philosophy which has been spoken, and unfortunately no practice, but it's a very good thought. It's a very big part and inject it again and revive it.
Prabhupāda: Love God.
Guest: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Premā pumartho mahān. Love of God is the highest perfection of life. This is our philosophy. (end)
Prabhupāda: More work; more use your intelligence. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā: with life, with money, with intelligence, with words to serve Kṛṣṇa. Etāvaj janma-sa-phala tvam. This is the perfection of life. How? Etāvaj janma-sal..., janma-sa-phala tvam dehinām iha dehiṣu. Iha dehi... This, in human body... Those who have got body as dog, cats, they have got body. But iha dehiṣu, this human form for perfection... And how that perfection is achieved? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya ācaraṇaṁ sadā: "With your life, with your money, with your intelligence, with your words, serve." That is perfect life.
Trivikrama: Today we have an engagement at the Gujarati... What was that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Nathdvar?
Prabhupāda: Here?
Trivikrama: In Bombay. In the city we have a...
Prabhupāda: So books are selling?
Prabhupāda: No, it is... They are saved from becoming like you or hippies. You'll become hippie after going to the college, so they are saved. You'll become naked and you'll have, like cats and dogs, sex on the street. But these children are saved.
Rāmeśvara: But what if they change later on in their life?
Prabhupāda: They have become Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning. That is the perfection of life. They are perfect from the very beginning of their life. And you are going to school, college; you are becoming most uncivilized, cats and dogs. So what is the value of this education? Phalena means result. Result is hippie. So what is the use of Western... Stop all these colleges and universities. The sooner they are stopped, it is better for the human beings. We want to stop it.
Rāmeśvara: Of course, if we tell them that, then they will think that we are anarchists.
Prabhupāda: First of all you say that we want to stop this nonsense, that is the name of education producing hippies. We want to stop it. You may take us whatever you like. We want gentlemen, not this hogs' and dogs' naked dance. You are hogs and dogs; you accept. But we cannot accept. We are birds of the same feather. We are cleansed. Let them become hogs and dogs. But the civilized(?) thing must go on. So we want to stop this. Is that education?
Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. We shall elevate them to go back to home, back to Godhead. Whatever he may be. Striyo vaiśyas tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayaḥ (BG 9.33). Simply by denying that "I am not śūdra," that will not help. But they must be elevated to the standard of brāhmaṇa. That we will talk later on. But we have to convince that "This world movement is going on to make the human society to the highest perfection of life. If you join, we can help you." To the perfection of life. On the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. There is no difficulty. That we can do. If you really want, there is a...
Bhakti-caru: They have got unions also, harijanas. How to approach the unions?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bhakti-caru: They have their unions. How can we approach the union and talk to the leaders?
Prabhupāda: Well, address him, that Dr. ... We are actually doing all over the world. Why not here?
Bhakti-caru: But the thing is Dr. Amritsar is dead now. He was the leader of the harijanas.
Prabhupāda: Whoever may be, but they could not do anything. Neither they can do. They do not know how to elevate them. We know that. We can help. And we are actually doing it. The idea is they are feeling frustration for want of leader. We are prepared to guide them. To the highest perfection of life. (pause) The defect was Gandhi started this harijana movement, keeping them where they are, and at the same time, changing by rubber-stamp, "harijana." That must be failure.
Prabhupāda: That is why we say the stool, this side and that side... After all, it is stool. Somebody says, "This side is better than that side." Stool is stool when in this side or that side. That is going on. Guer ei pitaro(?). But they are so intelligent, they say, "No, no, this side is better. It has dried up." They are rascals like that. It is stool. It is untouchable. It is... On all side it is bad, but they are thinking, "This side..." This is their intelligence. What can I do? But if they consult us, they'll be benefited. We are not going to be prime minister or this minister, that... We kick out. We want to remain eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no such ambition. So read books. Do things nicely. Serve Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. The direction is there, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Mr. Myer: Actually it was available in schools. That is all in first programs. But we changed.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that...
Mr. Myer: See, a lot of here, they made the school(?).
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are opening this gurukula.
Mr. Myer: No, even in the other schools, they must give something about the...
Prabhupāda: You say, "They must give," but who takes, "Yes"?
Bharadvāja: I'm just giving a very simple outline now. There's more notes on this. Then we show how the spirit soul enters the creation by Mahā-Viṣṇu. And then we show how the soul evolves up to human form of life through all the different species. Then, in the second, in the third portion, rather, we deal with the human form of life. And there's five different points: first, the place of the human form in the evolutionary cycle; and number two, human form of life as a turning point; then three, human life is meant for self-realization, not sense gratification; and four, not executing the mission of human life is the source of all problems; and five, establishment and maintenance of dharma by the avatāras and the disciplic succession. And the last movement is entitled "The Perfection of Life."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bharadvāja: The last portion of the exhibition is called "The Perfection of Life," and it is comprised of two portions, two parts. The first part describes the process of self-realization, and the second part is called the transcendence into the spiritual world, with emphasis on the reality of transcendental variegatedness and personality. That means we're actually going to try to give the viewer an experience of becoming purified. His senses are gradually becoming purified through the process of self-realization, and then we take him through the different spiritual realizations.
| Page Title: | Perfection of life (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 06 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=67, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 67 |